Advanced Marksmanship Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

[Genin]

Hello everyone,
I recently found out that there are tacticle/sniper shoots at a nearby range. They hold them once a month. Needless to say, I am interested in getting involved in these shoots. Some of the targets may require me to use sitting or standing shots. I am very comfortable prone and off of a rest (such as a bench). Sitting can be a bit sloppy for me on occassion but with some patience I can do well.

Standing is my worst enemy. Even with usage of my TIS sling I still cannot really feel comfortable with my offhand shots. The cross hairs are not steady at all; not just verticle but horizontal as well. Through the scope it looks like I have parkinsons! What am I doing wrong, what elbow position should I be doing, what position with my feet, etc.? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe

*I know my rifle is not designed the best for offhand shots, but I would still like to be good at all positions of shooting.*

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

The elements and factors of a good standing position are identical to the ones used for a steady prone position. Trying to put it into words here, without the aid of pictures, or video may, however, not teach you anything. My tip is to go to www.odcmp.com and link to sales catalog for a USAMU authored DVD on High Power Service Rifle Competition #770DVD.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

a good tip for off hand shooting would be the utilization of a Tubb chrome silicate firing pin spring and hi-speed firing pin and a safe trigger set at 1 3/4lb....and plenty of 9practice on front of the mirror....

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

It certainly helps to prevent the disaster of poor follow-through.

 

[Fredo]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Shoulder and aim your rifle like workout sets at the gym, 4 to 6 sets until failure every couple days will help alot.

 

[Guest]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Standing shots are for Q/K only in tactical training, you don't have a lot of time to build a bone on bone.
Most folks can hold either a Vert. or Horz. line very well but, few can hold both at the same time and place lead where it's need fast.

I was taught both methods of swing threw, an perfer the vert. myself. I start pulling the trigger at the crotch or head, my buddy goes with the Horz. an starts with the targets left shoulder.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Offhand needs to make the transition from, and I quote, "my worst enemy" to something you crave more than a hot chick naked in your mind before you'll make significant headway.

It's all down hill from there. Trust me.

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Thanks for all the tips gentlemen. I will definately do some cross training to build some more stabilization in my muscles. I'll check into that training vid as well. NineHotel, I don't know if I can ever crave offhand more than a hot naked chick being on hand in my mind

.

Gunfighter,
those techniques sound interesting I bet you really need to have your timing down for that. What does Q/K mean? Sorry I don't know many abbreviations.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Genin, just to show a heavy tac rifle can be shot offhand, here is a pic or 2. We were engaging body-sized targets from 230-350 yards made out of SAPI (sp?) plates. You'll need to click the links as I believe Zak has it set up so they cannot hot link.

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/?small=D100_3294_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/?small=D100_3318_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/?small=D100_3356_img.jpg

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/?small=D100_3388_img.jpg

You can tell the Highpower shooters from the action pistol shooters

All had first round hits though.

 

[Guest]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Genin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Gunfighter,
those techniques sound interesting I bet you really need to have your timing down for that. What does Q/K mean? Sorry I don't know many abbreviations. </div></div>

Q/K = Quick Kill.
Off hand is for close targets only, a slow, smooth trigger pull here, will get you a bag. Shooting an hitting first, is the corner stone to old age.

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

NineHotel,
Thank you for the pics. I find it intersting that none of them are using their slings for support. My front arm must be weak, hahaha.

Gunfighter,
thanks for elaborating.

 

[Wil]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Tip: Get a TIS

 

[Halfnutz]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

In addition to the above, you are turning your scope down to the lowest power,yes? with it on 10-20+ you will never minimize the wobble area.

If that is a Super Sniper scope with fixed power you may want to look at a variable power, or maybe the addition of a reflex type. I do not have any experieence w/ the reflex type myself. Just going off of what I have seen on some of the three gun set-ups. I think it has merit but until you (I) try it you (I) won't know if it will work for you (me).

When coyote hunting I move with my 3.5-10 set on 3.5 in case a unexpected close or running shot presents itself. If you need the magnification there is usally time to adjust it. Competition may be another story.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Offhand will always have some motion/wobble to it. Attempting to get rigid and control the wobble will usually only result in a worse outcome, with overcorrection, fatigue, and trembling complicating the issue.

The solution is to relax as completely as possible, build your position to create something of a Natural Point of Aim (to allow recovery ontarget), and accept that there is going to be a small but definite 'wobble zone'. The NPA is built to put the POA in the center of that wobble zone.

Get ontarget, center the wobble zone ontarget, and squeeze as normal.

There is another school of thought, involving "swing through". It's built around wingshooting technique.

Since there is always some motion relative to sight and target, it can be useful to work the relationship backwards. When wingshooting, the target is moving relative to the sight picture. With offhand the relationship is reversed. It is less imporant which, and more important that the shooter recognizes the relationship.

When wingshooting, the shooter is taught to swing through the target and to fire when the target enters the "zone". There is some delay and the delay fires the firearm when alignment is at or close to optimal. It helps that there is a shot pattern instead of a single projectile.

Offhand, as the sights swing toward the target, no effort is made to stop the rifle's swing, but rather, as the sights encounter the edge of the bull, the trigger squeeze is initiated, and the concept follows that as the squeeze progresses, the sight alignment is progessively improving; resulting in a better shot than any other strategy. For many, this works better than other methods.

Offhand is not a steady position, is not intended to be, and the adage "the match is won in the Prone and lost in the Offhand" is Gospel. When shooting offhand with variable optical sights, always use the lowest power available.

Greg

 

[Gordon Nettleton]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a good tip for off hand shooting would be the utilization of a Tubb chrome silicate firing pin spring and hi-speed firing pin and a safe trigger set at 1 3/4lb....and plenty of 9practice on front of the mirror....</div></div>

We all know you spend allot of time in front of the mirror, you gorgeous man

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Speedlocks are must useful when natural or bone/bone support cannot be used. They are less beneficial when support is available. Their advantage is when there is relative motion between sights and target. Anything which reduces the combined locktime and barrel time helps in that circumstance (i.e. a 150gr SMK instead of a a 175gr SMK).

I am actually trying a Garand handload built around 125gr Core-Lokt bullets for just this reason. I have a bunch I pulled from some Remington Managed recoil .30-'06 loads. They originally had 36gr of 'a stick powder', I am loading them with 50gr of IMR4064, the same charge as I use with the HDY 150gr FMJBT's I normally load for the Garand. Probably not an optimal load, but it should be sedate enough for the Op Rod, and if it cycles and shoots accurately, I'm gonna run with it. Might not be a bad deer load, either; for both the Garand and the M70.

Greg

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

unfortunately I have a 16x fixed SS scope, otherwise this would be on 4x. I am definately going to look into manuals and try that swing method a few times. practice practice practice. shooting's tough to get good at.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

All,

Being pragmatic, I think 9H has given advice which should benefit anyone who will run with it. Standing is a position where sometimes you've got to "will" it to happen, that's to say, it's very easy to become discouraged with negative thoughts about it all. To get the job done means thinking positive. You've got to convince yourself you can, indeed, do it. It requires mustering up some mental displine, for sure.

As far as a positive practice schedule goes, I shoot 50 minute, dry/live fire, blind call and plot excercises. This sort of practice helps with stamina, zero refinment, and motor memory. Since I begain this sort of practice schedule, just once a week, my standing scores have jumped 5%.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Truth is, for NRA HP with the service rifle other than sitting where position does the bulk of the work and execution separates 97s and 98s from high X count cleans, I have to "will" EVERY shot into the middle of the target.

Yesterday I was dryfiring a Remmy 5R/LTR/S&B 3-12 combo indoors in the sitting position, trying to find one that worked. My target was a wall outlet. I was able to see my position, when right, allow me to hover in the middle of the socket. Execution is what keeps it there when the shot breaks. Any added muscle tension, ANY, sends the crosshairs off the socket, at time of trigger execution.

Learning to break the offhand shot with the position holding the crosshairs in the vicinity of the intended target and not sending them off into space upon execution is the key. Over time with work you can refine your position so that the hold covers a smaller area, but even with that if the execution is not mastered then you will "blow your hold" and send shots elsewhere.

 

[SScott]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Genin,
After you do all of your research, pick up an air rifle and a pellet trap and practice all winter long. You will need to build the muscles and technique to make good off hand shots.
About 6 years ago I started my treck into high end air rifles, I kept my old pellet tins for the first 2 years, I nearly filled up a milk crate, it was 24,000 pellets. I nearly wore out the pellet trap but it was a great stress reliever as well as a less expensive way to get trigger time. SScott

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Well the good part is that I am someone who loves advice and takes whatever knowledge I can. I am not easily discouraged. I appreciate all the tips and trust me, I'll be doing some hardcore practice. I have already been practicing the swing method with some snap cap dry firing exercises. My timing is off but I can see the validity in that method. Part of the issue is that if my timing is off I can sometimes completely loss sight of the target due to my scope being a fixed 16 power.

 

[Guest]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

The trick with HP glass for a snap shot is to keep your eyes and head fixed on the target then bring the weapon to you, not you to it. Most of the time you should be moving with a iron sighted weapon not 16X glass, in a close pop up enviroment.

Most folks go over board with scope power. Many a man is/was tagged with 3x at what is still the working range of a .308 win. High X glass helps alot for target ID at range, but first you have to get there.

 

[Graham]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

With an overly-heavy tactical rifle you will have a limited amount of time to set your position before you start to get tired. The good news is that muzzle heavy rifles can be stabilized well for the short period of time that it takes to break the shot. I crawl the stock and try to create some dynamic tension by 'hard-holding' the rifle into my shoulder, knowing that I won't be able to keep steady in that position for very long. Canting the rifle might help; it helps me. If you have ever shot small-bore you might discover that some hip twist will feel natural, too. You can swing across the target, or try making ever-smaller concentric circles as you wobble and break the shot as the circle tightens on your aiming point.

 

[oughtsix]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Shooting the air rifles for so long has developed an offhand position in me that only produces scope eye with a highpowered rifle. I'm still trying to fix that. As far as offhand, I do remember that breathing was very important. And to me in any position, it helped to be sure and make no extra movements in between, so that I could learn a rhythm, and then just roll with it. Front Sight Front Sight Front Sight.

This makes me want to start shooting service rifle.

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I really appreciate all the great tips and got much more than I was anticipating.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Scope eye is a product of eye relief and mounting. It can be fixed.

All shooting responds to structured practice, and the offhand and .22LR are made for each other.

Greg

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Genin, get David Tubb's book(s), and pay him to give you a one day lesson. You'll be the best shot on the range.

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Thanks Greg.

Casey,
I'll check the book without a doubt.

 

[Moose]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

+1 on 22rf training.It will help you alot.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scope eye is a product of eye relief and mounting. It can be fixed.

All shooting responds to structured practice, and the offhand and .22LR are made for each other.

Greg </div></div>

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

All,
No, no, no! Not to bash you all, but there is a way to drastically slow down the wobble. There is a way to quickly acquire a good position. Hell with the speed bolt! You could shoot good groups with an old 30-40 krag and a slop-nasty trigger! If you can hold the gun still, you can shoot great! If you really want to know, I'll tell you. PM me if interested.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I agree. Position/NPA are important in all shooting positions. I've been criticised frequently about my offhand position, but it works for me. I tend to slouch down/back until I feel as relaxed as possible, sorta as if there's nowhere further to go. Looks kinda weird, but it does seem to minimize the sway and weave, plus it's comfortable, relaxed, and I can do it a lot longer than other approaches.

Greg

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Greg elaborate on slouch down, forward in athletic position? Man I'm willing to try anything to improve my offhand position.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I kcick my "off side" hip forward, to provide support straight down.

I'm the guy in the maroon vest and SH cap.......

The weight of the rifle goes through a straight line down to my hip and then the ground.

(silhouette shooting, but I do the same with my tactical precision rig)

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

That's what I'm describing. Biker's position duplicates mine in all aspects, even the hand.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I eliminated the other guy in the picture just to see if you were referring to the right one....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Yep.

 

[1SMALLJOHNSON]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Why can't I see that picture? All I see is an X. Right clicking and hitting "show picture" does nothing. WTF?

 

[Genin]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Greg and Biker,
That position is the balls! I actually place my hand on the bottom of my detachable box mag and it puts my elbow in a perfect position to rest above my hip. I feel very secure in this position and through some snap cap practice I think I will perform pretty well next time I get to test it at the range. Thanks again for the help.
-Joe

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

My shot plan: Inhale as rifle comes to shoulder muzzle elevated, staring at target, exhale as elbow snugs into hip while looking primarily with my weak eye at target, inhale while transferring sight picture to dominant eye through scope (gets your natural point of aim built into your stance-if scopes not aligned with the target area, reposition feet and start over) aligning crosshairs above target at full inspiration, slowly let out about half breath and pause while easing wobble onto target, concentrate on pressing trigger as crosshair comes onto target. Then follow through.........
Usually results in a nice "ding" shortly after the "boom" if done properly.

Glad to help, I hope any of that made sense.

 

[Shane C.]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Bone support, muscle relaxation.

 

[Dagsta]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

sorbiker I am going to try your sequence, Thanks!!!

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I'm definitely not an expert shooter, especially at off hand, but as an intermediate I find that the advice about practicing dry-fire sets at night until your arms are sore really helps in the field. Start it at least several weeks before a big event/hunt though so you are not tired when you have to shoot for real.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Just a word about NPA. As the position is being built, cognisant of the factors of a steady position, but without any consideration for the target, a natural point of aim will come about. It's only when the shooter unconsciously steers the gun to the target while building the position that the shooter will not have a natural point of aim. At this point he will be hard pressed to adjust for it since the brain knows you want to be on target. Thing is, getting NPA will no doubt will pull the shooter off target. Better to let the rifle go where ever it wants when establishing the position, and then adjust NPA to bring the sight on target.

 

[lachoneus]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Genin,
After you do all of your research, pick up an air rifle and a pellet trap and practice all winter long. You will need to build the muscles and technique to make good off hand shots.
About 6 years ago I started my treck into high end air rifles, I kept my old pellet tins for the first 2 years, I nearly filled up a milk crate, it was 24,000 pellets. I nearly wore out the pellet trap but it was a great stress reliever as well as a less expensive way to get trigger time. SScott</div></div>

+1 on air rifle practice. I began practicing offhand with a Daisy 853 some time ago and it has greatly helped my offhand scores. While it does not duplicate the effect of recoil, the fact that there is no recoil helps show where your front sight was when the shot broke, and that in turn, helps to identify weaknesses in sight picture, trigger control and/or follow-through. It also allows one to readily see the effects of variations in building a position or executing the shot. And it is much cheaper than practicing with high-power cartridges.

 

[Strykervet]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

Hard to explain, but what I like to do is to keep my elbows in tight, resting on my gut basically, lean back, feet apart with the non-firing hand "wrapped" around the forend closest to the receiver. Think back of knuckles lined up with ejection port for a right hand shooter, with the thumb under the forend and fingers over the top (basically like you hold your dick but rotate 90deg. counter clockwise). Think nice tight package. Is there any part of my body moving or "unsupported" somehow that could offset this? I see guys with the elbows out all the time (like in the picture above) and they say they have no problem, but pulling in the elbows sure helped me. Almost like having a rest!

Then get your cheekweld, all that shit.

This gives for a pretty damn tight unsupported, no sling firing position. If you do it right and someone grabs the front of the barrel and tries to move it, your whole body will move at the feet and not the weapon.

Lower magnification will help with the floating crosshair. Then the best thing you can hope for is to call your shots well and try to pull when the hairs float over the target. Works well for me.

Learning all the NM positions is really helpful for any kind of marksmanship, and that is basically all this is. Shooting NM made me an infinitely better shooter in all aspects.

Hope that helps.

 

[jbell]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shane C.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bone support, muscle relaxation.


</div></div>

This + pratice - dry fire and live fire. Most people cant shoot off hand or other unsupported positions because they dont shoot off hand or unsupported. Dont forget the mental side of traning, positive mental reinforcement goes a long way. If you see it going badly then it will, ask me how I know...

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shane C.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bone support, muscle relaxation.


</div></div>
Most people cant shoot off hand or other unsupported positions because they dont shoot off hand or unsupported</div></div>

This..................... Jbell hit a pin wheel with this statement.

We don't practice Offhand because our egos wont let us. We don't shoot as good off hand as we do other positions so to give us a warm fuzzy we practice our best positions so we get the good scores/groups. Its EGO.

The secret to off hand is trigger control.

Gary Anderson set the world record for offhand shooting in ISU shooting a long time ago. Its never been broken. He wrote a booklet we pass out to students at the CMP GSM Clinics which covers Offhand.

Get one of those booklets, besides offhand it covers all the fundamentals and positions used in rifle matches.

 

[Graham]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

I agree with Kraig that good off-hand shooters have excellent trigger control. But I have to disagree a bit with the mechanical advice and the technique given here by some of the hi-power shooters.

Hi-power rifles, especially ARs, are built and designed to be shot well from an off-hand position. Most heavy barreled tactical rifles are incapable of being held steady off-hand for long periods of time.

Therefore, and depending on the rifle, an off-hand shot with a tactical heavy-barreled bolt gun is often a 'snap' shot built entirely on a standing NPA and dependent on a very short trigger window.

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Kraig that good off-hand shooters have excellent trigger control. But I have to disagree a bit with the mechanical advice and the technique given here by some of the hi-power shooters.

Hi-power rifles, especially ARs, are built and designed to be shot well from an off-hand position. Most heavy barreled tactical rifles are incapable of being held steady off-hand for long periods of time.

Therefore, and depending on the rifle, an off-hand shot with a tactical heavy-barreled bolt gun is often a 'snap' shot built entirely on a standing NPA and dependent on a very short trigger window.</div></div>

This has been my experience as well. I'll add that the short trigger window is created by the willingness to accept less than perfect sight picture and ignoring the wobble. I think practicing unsupported shooting teaches one that a perfect press, applied through less than perfect position and sight picture, can achieve amazing results.

 

[Break Bad]

Re: Tips for off hand shots, PLS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reinman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll add that the short trigger window is created by the willingness to accept less than perfect sight picture and ignoring the wobble..</div></div>

+1 thanks, I probably need to lower my sight picture standards and treat it more like duck hunt on the nintendo.