To Anneal, or not to Anneal, That is the Question

[powerspc]

Annealing always seems to prompt some healthy discussion and debate. Best ways to anneal? When to anneal? Is it really even annealing (there was recently a thread on here as to whether it is actually annealing or something else). All that said, for what I will refer to as my ‘precision’ rounds I anneal (AMP) after every firing, and I anneal before resizing (I’m thinking this puts me in the majority).

But what I’m wondering today is this; as I have begun reloading large volumes of .223 Rem. .308 Win and .300 ACC Blackout for my gas guns. Do these need to be annealed? Annealed after every firing? And for that matter, trimmed after every firing? I have no dog in the fight, I have the equipment to do it and rather enjoy the whole process, but I was curious what others were doing for their "meat and potato" rounds.

 

[ma smith]

But what I’m wondering today is this; as I have begun reloading large volumes of .223 Rem. .308 Win and .300 ACC Blackout for my gas guns. Do these need to be annealed? Annealed after every firing? And for that matter, trimmed after every firing? I have no dog in the fight, I have the equipment to do it and rather enjoy the whole process, but I was curious what others were doing for their "meat and potato" rounds.

This question is answered very easily. get a good press and measuring tools. and watch what happens. A/B test with/without annealing.

there is no way to hold tolerances on reloading with mixed-consistentcy-brass as it work hardens. no matter how good your brass is and how consistent your process is, the work hardening has a stochastic element. The resust is inconsistent response to consistent forming pressures.

So you (inevitably) end up with inconsistent brass sizing. there is no real solution to this problem other than annealing.

There is no 'debunking' the need to anneal, there is only relaxing your standards of consistency.

 

[Capt45]

I Anneal after every firing, especially on my .308; 6ARC; 6.5CM and .223 . All these I run in a bolt gun with the exception of .223 and 300 BO. I load the AR stuff in the same fashion as I do my bolt gun stuff and keep them separate because of the finite differences in headspace.

 

[simonp]

I already have the equipment so why not anneal?

I anneal the LC brass I use in my gas guns after every firing before sizing.

 

[DHDeal]

I'm in the every firing camp. I use a vertex and wait until I have enough to make the process worthwhile. I have a pile of brass per caliber so don't need to do it each time I shoot (unless I want to).

 

[Conqueror]

Anyone who has reloaded bulk .223 knows that after 3-5 cycles the brass is hard. Resizing takes more force and searing bullets does too, and necks start to crack. There’s no question that you will get longer brass life by annealing. Whether you gain any accuracy is sorta moot for blasting practice ammo.

 

[ZA206]

I anneal because I refuse to sort brass by the number of times fired. LC and Winchester 223 are saved for precision loads, everything else is used for general purpose/blaster ammo, but it all gets annealed through my Ugly Annealer when I do a large batch. I sort by headstamp after annealing. I have three bins… “dirty”, “cleaned” & “annealed”…. That’s it.

 

[supercorndogs]

I wouldn't mix brass with a diffrent number of firings whether I annealed it or not.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I wouldn't mix brass with a diffrent number of firings whether I annealed it or not.

I don't think it's a big deal if it's say one at 3x and one at 2x fired.....IF..... it's annealed every time. Once you get beyond that and they are separated by more than a firing and the brass is longer in the tooth, it's a little different. Imo Assuming we are taking about lapua brass. It would matter more with lesser brass

 

[Namekagon]

I wouldn't mix brass with a diffrent number of firings whether I annealed it or not.

Agree. Annealing isn't going to stop the case stretching that occurs, eventually leading to case head separation. How fast that happens depends alot on the cartridge and re-sizing techniques.

 

[hkguns]

Kind of hard to believe this topic hasn't been covered here already in a lot of detail.

 

[Ledzep]

Follow whatever OCD mantra you'd like. Annealing won't make ES/SD numbers any better unless you have trash brass or you have over 3 firings on the cases. Annealing every firing isn't going to hurt anything. Annealing every 3 firings isn't going to hurt anything.

4-7 firings you're on your own. May start to see ES numbers creep up, may start to see neck splits.

As far as mixing various # firings on cases... If you anneal every time and run sane pressures, cases in bolt actions should be lasting 13-20 firings with a .001-.002 shoulder bump. I wouldn't mix 6x fired with 1x fired... As an aside, I never mix lots on cases that I take to matches... but I have some that have been run through 1 or 2 more times than the rest and I don't fret it.

 

[sinister]

Depending on your loads the two ways you'll lose brass without annealing is work-hardened necks that crack or loose primer pockets.

One fella tracked case life by annealing at random, none, and every reload. The three columns on the right document how many cases he lost to cracks or primer pockets per firing:

 

[straightshooter1]

Depending on your loads the two ways you'll lose brass without annealing is work-hardened necks that crack or loose primer pockets.

One fella tracked case life by annealing at random, none, and every reload. The three columns on the right document how many cases he lost to cracks or primer pockets per firing:

View attachment 8324448

Hmmm??? I sure don't understand the numbers. For example, for those "Annealed Every Time", after 3 firings he only had 145 left. WHAT???

I anneal after every firing on all my brass and I've had all the cases for every batch last much much longer, like up to 19 firings for .308 cases before there were any having to be discarded due to any presenting any concern for some kind of failure, and at that point I just trash that batch and start a new batch.

 

[CheapBasterd]

Hmmm??? I sure don't understand the numbers. For example, for those "Annealed Every Time", after 3 firings he only had 145 left. WHAT???

I anneal after every firing on all my brass and I've had all the cases for every batch last much much longer, like up to 19 firings for .308 cases before there were any having to be discarded due to any presenting any concern for some kind of failure, and at that point I just trash that batch and start a new batch.

Have to go in a Z pattern to understand it.
at 2 x he Starts with 150 - Annealed and lost 5 to cracked necks (during sizing/seating)
at 3x he starts with 145 due to the 5 lost.

Shitty brass or bad annealing process to lose case necks after 2x?

 

[Ledzep]

Spicy handloads and losing primer pockets likely.

 

[orkan]

Annealing is good.

Do it.

The primary reason why is demonstrated in this video on a per-firing basis. A load that you develop at firing #1, will not behave the same way at firing #5, without annealing.



You can start shooting the difference at about 10lbs or so of seating force disparity. So while the seating force in a batch that is all on the same firing will not be as great as the 30lbs+ of force variance between the annealed and final firing in this video... as the case are subject to repeated firings without being brought back to neutral by annealing, the variance within the batch also increases.

So while annealed brass might have a 5lbs variance within the batch, an un-annealed batch by firing #5 can often display a 15-25lb variance... even when testing the identical batch of cases after several firings.

That means you can in essence, "fix" a batch of brass that has non-uniform seating pressure by annealing it, regardless of how many firings into it you are. (within reason) It's also important to note that these non-uniform seating pressures will also show up in non-uniform shoulder set back and non-uniform trimming length.

Brass hardness consistency touches nearly every other variable in the process.

 

[MK20]

I anneal every time. It's easy, and cheap with the right machine. Brass is expensive these days.
It gives me consistency and brass life.

The secret is to have a pile of brass.

 

[supercorndogs]

Hmmm??? I sure don't understand the numbers. For example, for those "Annealed Every Time", after 3 firings he only had 145 left. WHAT???

I anneal after every firing on all my brass and I've had all the cases for every batch last much much longer, like up to 19 firings for .308 cases before there were any having to be discarded due to any presenting any concern for some kind of failure, and at that point I just trash that batch and start a new batch.

I have seen my dad take 50 lc 223 to 30 without ever annealing once. I always wondered if cracked necks have a lot to do with the forming of the neck and shoulder during the manufacturing process. Who knows, but I wouldn't personally add longer brass life to the list of reasons to anneal. The best reason I have found to do it every time is because it's easier to rember than on every 3rd time.

 

[308pirate]

Annealing always seems to prompt some healthy discussion and debate. Best ways to anneal? When to anneal? Is it really even annealing (there was recently a thread on here as to whether it is actually annealing or something else). All that said, for what I will refer to as my ‘precision’ rounds I anneal (AMP) after every firing, and I anneal before resizing (I’m thinking this puts me in the majority).

But what I’m wondering today is this; as I have begun reloading large volumes of .223 Rem. .308 Win and .300 ACC Blackout for my gas guns. Do these need to be annealed? Annealed after every firing? And for that matter, trimmed after every firing? I have no dog in the fight, I have the equipment to do it and rather enjoy the whole process, but I was curious what others were doing for their "meat and potato" rounds.

99% of that is discussed by people with little understanding of the metallurgical concepts and even less understanding of how to measure and test what they do.

 

[308pirate]

I always wondered if cracked necks have a lot to do with the forming of the neck and shoulder during the manufacturing process. Who knows, but I wouldn't personally add longer brass life to the list of reasons to anneal.

Perfect example of the total ignorance about the metallurgy of brass that so many here have and still want to argue this topic.

For fuck's sake, do some basic reading on what happens to brass when it's cold-worked.

All of this is already known through well over 100 years of documented research into copper alloys.........none of you people are treading new ground.

BTW, yes, any forming operation done on brass both hardens it and embrittles it. The more times you reform brass the harder and more brittle it becomes until it fractures. No, this is not open to debate or discussion.

 

[oso1]

Kind of hard to believe this topic hasn't been covered here already in a lot of detail.

well I just want to know whether to use a tuner or not

 

[CheapBasterd]

I have seen my dad take 50 lc 223 to 30 without ever annealing once. I always wondered if cracked necks have a lot to do with the forming of the neck and shoulder during the manufacturing process. Who knows, but I wouldn't personally add longer brass life to the list of reasons to anneal. The best reason I have found to do it every time is because it's easier to rember than on every 3rd time.

If the brass you work with can be easily had for 5 cents or free pick ups I wouldnt get an annealer. But if you can "double" the life of $1+ brass I could see it as paying for itself after a 3 or 4 lots of brass. I havent decided yet because to that degree of doubling brass life, there is brass stretch and by 5x or 10x and im still wondering if I want to be shooting 10x brass that has been thinned out by stretching? is that a thing?

 

[hkguns]

well I just want to know whether to use a tuner or not

Awwww man doncha know Science has proven those things don't work. TRUST THE SCIENCE!

 

[supercorndogs]

Perfect example of the total ignorance about the metallurgy of brass that so many here have and still want to argue this topic.

For fuck's sake, do some basic reading on what happens to brass when it's cold-worked.

All of this is already known through well over 100 years of documented research into copper alloys.........none of you people are treading new ground.

BTW, yes, any forming operation done on brass both hardens it and embrittles it. The more times you reform brass the harder and more brittle it becomes until it fractures. No, this is not open to debate or discussion.

And yet when people anneal necks still crack and sometimes they crack on the first firing. Amazing.

Cracking in copper alloys and brasses is generally as a result of internal residual stresses from manufacture adding to any service tensile stress. Stress relief annealing after manufacture reduces these risks.

Reudces not eliminates. And that pretty much explains why some brass goes 1-3 and some goes farther and some goes much farther without "annealing."

 

[supercorndogs]

If the brass you work with can be easily had for 5 cents or free pick ups I wouldnt get an annealer. But if you can "double" the life of $1+ brass I could see it as paying for itself after a 3 or 4 lots of brass. I havent decided yet because to that degree of doubling brass life, there is brass stretch and by 5x or 10x and im still wondering if I want to be shooting 10x brass that has been thinned out by stretching? is that a thing?

I consider myself to have messed up if I can't get most of a batch well past 10. I have an annealing machine and if you are running much volume I would suggest one. If you have 100 peices of brass you reload a few times per year a propane torch and socket has worked fine for years.

I am not saying annealing can't make brass last longer but that cracked necks are not the first failure point most reach. Loading inside of pressure limits and not overbumping the shoulders will take your brass farther than annealing.

You can buy a lot brass for the cost of some machines. It's a Hobbie for most though not an economics exercise. Almost 10 years later many thousands of peices of brass have run through my Giarud.

If you are worried about some brass you can usually look through the neck and see if it's thinning. You can also feel this with paper clip with a shot 90 degree bend on the end. You could also cut a piece in half and inspect the case walls. Is CHS is your main concern, or primers falling out? They make a go no go primer gauge also.

 

[lash]

If the brass you work with can be easily had for 5 cents or free pick ups I wouldnt get an annealer. But if you can "double" the life of $1+ brass I could see it as paying for itself after a 3 or 4 lots of brass. I havent decided yet because to that degree of doubling brass life, there is brass stretch and by 5x or 10x and im still wondering if I want to be shooting 10x brass that has been thinned out by stretching? is that a thing?

It really depends upon what brand you’re using. I have no problems with Lapua, Peterson, or RUAG Norma brass with this. 20+ firings most of the time.

It does matter how much you are moving things each sizing. I feel that this is your determining factor when it comes to case head separation.

 

[CheapBasterd]

I consider myself to have messed up if I can't get most of a batch well past 10. I have an annealing machine and if you are running much volume I would suggest one. If you have 100 peices of brass you reload a few times per year a propane torch and socket has worked fine for years.

I am not saying annealing can't make brass last longer but that cracked necks are not the first failure point most reach. Loading inside of pressure limits and not overbumping the shoulders will take your brass farther than annealing.

You can buy a lot brass for the cost of some machines. It's a Hobbie for most though not an economics exercise. Almost 10 years later many thousands of peices of brass have run through my Giarud.

If you are worried about some brass you can usually look through the neck and see if it's thinning. You can also feel this with paper clip with a shot 90 degree bend on the end. You could also cut a piece in half and inspect the case walls. Is CHS is your main concern, or primers falling out? They make a go no go primer gauge also.

CHS mostly. I got a serious problem with NOT checking every case. If I run a paperclip on 5 out of 10 cases....those other 5 are now suspect lol.

For me I have a mountain of once fired .223/5.56/.300 BO brass and a growing mountain of twice fired brass that I may never get to for my autoloaders.

But i've gotten into a 6.5 CM Bolt Action and have 200 cases of Peterson Brass staring at me with a "you better treat me right" look. Propane torch and drill socket is considered based on volume sounds right...for now.

 

[308pirate]

And yet when people anneal necks still crack and sometimes they crack on the first firing. Amazing.

No shit sherlock. Find me a perfect heat treatment process so we can become billio-fucking-naires.

Cracking in copper alloys and brasses is generally as a result of internal residual stresses from manufacture adding to any service tensile stress. Stress relief annealing after manufacture reduces these risks.

See now you go moving the goal posts.

 

[supercorndogs]

Keep in mind when we’re talking annealing and comparing others brass life and what not that not all annealing is created equal.

You see guys using a drill/socket method. Then getting the necks cherry red. On the same note you see guys who “think” they annealed. But never got the brass hot enough to actually accomplish this. Then wonder why it still cracks anyways

If you’re annealing you need at very least a way to test to make sure it’s done properly. Tempilaq works well. If you can afford an AMP that tests it for you then even better. Remaining consistent is the next key

All you need is a comparitor to measure shoulder bump and you will know in a few firings if it is getting hot enough to size consistently. AMP never achieved recystization of brass in thier ummm "study." So what are we really doing and what temperature range do we really need to stress relieve it enough to size consistently. AMP has been out for while and the record books remain un-rewritten. I guess maybe "perfect annealing" was never that important.

 

[45-90]

Annealing always seems to prompt some healthy discussion and debate. Best ways to anneal? When to anneal? Is it really even annealing (there was recently a thread on here as to whether it is actually annealing or something else). All that said, for what I will refer to as my ‘precision’ rounds I anneal (AMP) after every firing, and I anneal before resizing (I’m thinking this puts me in the majority).

But what I’m wondering today is this; as I have begun reloading large volumes of .223 Rem. .308 Win and .300 ACC Blackout for my gas guns. Do these need to be annealed? Annealed after every firing? And for that matter, trimmed after every firing? I have no dog in the fight, I have the equipment to do it and rather enjoy the whole process, but I was curious what others were doing for their "meat and potato" rounds.

Nope...never anneal these, even much of the case forming the 30-06 to 8.6 Blackout not annealed ...a waste if time on every thousand pieces of LC brass. But If I use commercial dies on some wildcats I anneal...home built dies no, they have a special secret built in.

 

[45-90]

Here is an example of my "top secret" home built sizing dies...the ideas are probably worth millions.
No annealing ...no lube ..take this old crusty old 270 Win case out of the scrap bucket...as is.
Put in shell holder pull press handle size 3/4" of brass to 8 6 blackout in 1 second no annealing no lube perfect shoulders.
Don't ask.
But I anneal with commercial dies on some drastic case forming... sometimes. And sometimes annealing causes problems, case formimg. It's when to anneal...but mostly I do not.
I'll let others fuss over that, I have more important things to do, than light a fire under some brass.

 

[orkan]

Here is an example of my "top secret" home built sizing dies...the ideas are probably worth millions.
No annealing ...no lube ..take this old crusty old 270 Win case out of the scrap bucket...as is.
Put in shell holder pull press handle size 3/4" of brass to 8 6 blackout in 1 second no annealing no lube perfect shoulders.
Don't ask.
But I anneal with commercial dies on some drastic case forming... sometimes. And sometimes annealing causes problems, case formimg. It's when to anneal...but mostly I do not.
I'll let others fuss over that, I have more important things to do, than light a fire under some brass.

 

[FredHammer]

Years ago I started annealing after a batch of brass was getting so daggum hard to seat the bullets. In my ignorance back then I called RCBS and asked what could change in the dies that would make shit go wonky like this!

Hit the batch of brass with the drill-torch method and all was good in the hood again. I’ve been annealing with same method ever since with great success.

I don’t get why people get so wrapped around the axle thinking annealing is such an exact science. Torch them till the anneal line appears just below the shoulder and let’er rip tater chip!

 

[FredHammer]

Annealing is good.

Do it.

The primary reason why is demonstrated in this video on a per-firing basis. A load that you develop at firing #1, will not behave the same way at firing #5, without annealing.



You can start shooting the difference at about 10lbs or so of seating force disparity. So while the seating force in a batch that is all on the same firing will not be as great as the 30lbs+ of force variance between the annealed and final firing in this video... as the case are subject to repeated firings without being brought back to neutral by annealing, the variance within the batch also increases.

So while annealed brass might have a 5lbs variance within the batch, an un-annealed batch by firing #5 can often display a 15-25lb variance... even when testing the identical batch of cases after several firings.

That means you can in essence, "fix" a batch of brass that has non-uniform seating pressure by annealing it, regardless of how many firings into it you are. (within reason) It's also important to note that these non-uniform seating pressures will also show up in non-uniform shoulder set back and non-uniform trimming length.

Brass hardness consistency touches nearly every other variable in the process.

Very nice video!

 

[45-90]

Yep, it's not rocket science...I annealed 1000 times to get 250 cases, notice no head stamp as to what they are...
Just use a torch and the lathe, a bored out piece of metal to hold, turn, and protect the case body...and a leather glove to pull and insert cases. Simple and free of charge, except for a little gas.
Back in the day when shooting alot of 308 to 1400 yds. I reloaded Lapua 308 brass 40 times without annealing...just go to the lathe and make a .001" smaller bushing for the die, and back in business, with respect to neck tension.
So I just annel when I have to...most of the time I do not...even case forming most wildcats, as I use mostly my home built dies for that, some commercial, that are altered, and not what they are.

 

[straightshooter1]

The more the brass is being worked, the more the need for annealing to keep the brass is good shape. This is why manufacturers have an annealing process for multiple times during the manufacturing process. When the amount of work being done on the brass cases can be kept to a minimum, like in using custom dies and/or chambers, there can be very little need, if any, for doing any annealing. If the chambers have a lot of space and sizing dies are not made accordingly, like so many factory guns have, annealing is a good thing to incorporate into the reloading process. Otherwise, just replace the cases after a few firings when one sees the results have become unacceptable.

 

[DubfromGA]

To Anneal, or not to Anneal, That is the Question.....​