To anneal or not

[supercorndogs]

Finite control of temp over time.

You can't control the temp of your AMP.

It is extremely difficult to accurately measure the peak temperature of flash annealing. As noted above, the required temperature also varies with time. That is why AMP focuses on the end result – neck and shoulder hardness – rather than temperature.

 

[straightshooter1]

It's actually a pretty good read but unfortunately it's marketing and doesn't show what happens to brass under the same conditions un-annealed, unless I missed it. In the Metlab Appendix 1 there is a discussion of annealing but unfortunately is doesn't really address the issue. As for AMP they certainly show an argument that they get a level of consistency.

A Open Class shooter found this last week and on page 18-20 there is a good description of what we are trying to accomplish with annealing. I think this may be the best description of the issue I've found.

Ammunition Making-NRA by G Frost-1990 _text.pdf

https://ia804700.us.archive.org/21/items/AmmunitionMakingNRAByG.Frost1990/Ammunition%20Making-NRA%20%20by%20G.%20Frost-%281990%29%20_text.pdf

Yeah, I've seen this publication before and in fact, I've had it stored my files for reference. When I read it, one of the things that really stood out for me was on earlier page it talked a lot about grain size and actually looking at grain size to determine if they're getting the anneal they're after.

Note that on page 14 (PDF page 29), "Relief Anneal" is talked about and distinguishing that from "Anneal". So I suppose when we reloaders refer to annealing, it should be "relief annealing" to be correct about what we're doing. But, because the reloader community's vocabulary uses "annealing" the way they do, I don't see that ever changing and to try may even be confusing to many.

 

[straightshooter1]

If the equation is temp vs time, what makes an amp more consistent than another automated process?

More control over both temperature and time . . . as Tokay444 mentions.

 

[supercorndogs]

I think the argument here in the temp vs. time arena is between batches of the same lot of brass (if that makes sense). It's always the same (time/temp), where as with flame, that has to be adjusted out each time you set up to anneal. Can both methods get to the same end result? Yeah. The AMP just makes it easier.

JMTCW...

This entire thread was made to argue about semantics. I am just keeping with the theme grilling the "more consistent" folks.

The AMP is easier. That is it.

Turn off the light, wait for the dull glow. That is a consistent repeatable temp. It keeps my sizing consistent batch to batch.

 

[straightshooter1]

Turn off the light, wait for the dull glow. That is a consistent repeatable temp. It keeps my sizing consistent batch to batch.

That works very well for me too.

 

[supercorndogs]

More control over both temperature and time . . . as Tokay444 mentions.

Yea, he mentioned that, but I don't see the temp or time adjustment knobs on the AMP.

 

[straightshooter1]

Yea, he mentioned that, but I don't see the temp or time adjustment knobs on the AMP.

Time and temperature is all controlled by the code determination when a piece of brass is tested and destroyed (a required first step). If there were control knobs to adjust, it'd make it harder for less knowledgeable users to determine what the right setting might be for their brass. AMP has made it super easy to get the right time and temperature so one doesn't have to be knowledgeable about annealing to get it right.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Time and temperature is all controlled by the code determination when a piece of brass is tested and destroyed (a required first step). If there were control knobs to adjust, it'd make it harder for less knowledgeable users to determine what the right setting might be for their brass. AMP has made it super easy to get the right time and temperature so one doesn't have to be knowledgeable about annealing to get it right.

Just out of curiosity. What’s the odds this computer screws up and destroys all your brass? Not trying to mash the amp, just curious for myself.

With a flame, I know how it’s set cause I can see it with my own eyes.

 

[supercorndogs]

Time and temperature is all controlled by the code determination when a piece of brass is tested and destroyed (a required first step). If there were control knobs to adjust, it'd make it harder for less knowledgeable users to determine what the right setting might be for their brass. AMP has made it super easy to get the right time and temperature so one doesn't have to be knowledgeable about annealing to get it right.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

This entire thread was made to argue about semantics. I am just keeping with the theme grilling the "more consistent" folks.

The AMP is easier. That is it.

Turn off the light, wait for the dull glow. That is a consistent repeatable temp. It keeps my sizing consistent batch to batch.

This is the main problem here. Thinking you are getting any kind of consistent results based on a "dull glow". How scientific of you.

That dull glow could be a range of hundreds of degrees, which based on soak time, will drastically change the grains structure from one end to the other.

YOU DO NOT KNOW WHATS HAPPENING. Its not controlled and unless you are hardness testing every batch, throughout the whole batch to ensure the reg is not walking , you might as well blindfold yourself and go shoot a stage.

Regulating the gas is the single biggest challenge. The regulators that comes on the machines are junk, so you need to spend $$ on a higher quality reg with finer adjustment. Most won't but even then, unless you are testing, you are just guessing.

Whats funny is some you act like we havent used torch annealers before. I went through 2 before deciding to spend the money on the AMP because the torch annealers are such a pain in the ass and aren't doing much. Think I wanted to spend $1600 for nothing? I went over and used my buddies and it was so easy to use and my reloading became so much better I couldn't afford NOT to buy one. After the Henderson, probably the single best investment in reloading IMO. Going to the AMP shrunk my SD and dramatically improve my WEZ at further ranges, which when coupled with the CDM's from AB, give me very high hit percentage from 800-1450yrds on typical PRS type targets. Much more than when i was torch annealing and thats really the only thing that changed. Shooting long stages in prone is not rocket science.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Just out of curiosity. What’s the odds this computer screws up and destroys all your brass? Not trying to mash the amp, just curious for myself.

With a flame, I know how it’s set cause I can see it with my own eyes.

Whens the last time your eyeballs been calibrated?

 

[straightshooter1]

Actually, yeah, I got it. Just thought there may be others in this forum that might read that and have serious thoughts like that.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Whens the last time your eyeballs been calibrated?

Every time I go to the doc for a physical(yearly for DOT), 20/15 most days

 

[straightshooter1]

Just out of curiosity. What’s the odds this computer screws up and destroys all your brass? Not trying to mash the amp, just curious for myself.

With a flame, I know how it’s set cause I can see it with my own eyes.

I often have similar thoughts about technology today; like flight controls in new commercial aircraft and jet fighters are all now "fly by wire" and new cars are steer and brake by wire. But since one is simply going one case at a time, I doubt one is going to destroy "all" one's brass should should something go wrong. If I had an AMP, I'd still be inspecting results to be sure the machine is performing as expected. . . .like I do with all my machines, including my FX-120.

 

[Tokay444]

You can't control the temp of your AMP.

It is extremely difficult to accurately measure the peak temperature of flash annealing. As noted above, the required temperature also varies with time. That is why AMP focuses on the end result – neck and shoulder hardness – rather than temperature.

Correct. YOU can’t, but they do.
I’m not a huge AMP proponent. I use salt bath. Amp is definitely the easy button. But I still do two cases for ever one an Amp does.

 

[abn31c]

Whens the last time your eyeballs been calibrated?

Just to be clear...do you believe the AMP is reading the metallurgical composition of each piece of brass you stick in it? Cause it sounds like you do, ima bet it costs a bunch more than 16 dp's to accomplish this. It's a nice tool, but it didn't put the Ho in Santa's Christmas.....

 

[roostercogburn98]

I often have similar thoughts about technology today; like flight controls in new commercial aircraft and jet fighters are all now "fly by wire" and new cars are steer and brake by wire. But since one is simply going one case at a time, I doubt one is going to destroy "all" one's brass should should something go wrong. If I had an AMP, I'd still be inspecting results to be sure the machine is performing as expected. . . .like I do with all my machines, including my FX-120.

They put redundant systems in these just for that “what if” moment. If you don’t know your brass is being over/underworked, you very well could ruin a whole lot of brass and not know it until it’s too late. They are called glitches for a reason.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Just to be clear...do you believe the AMP is reading the metallurgical composition of each piece of brass you stick in it? Cause it sounds like you do, ima bet it costs a bunch more than 16 dp's to accomplish this. It's a nice tool, but it didn't put the Ho in Santa's Christmas.....

What a stupid question. Go back and read the thread and try and keep up.

 

[abn31c]

What a stupid question. Go back and read the thread and try and keep up.

Lol, if I read it again, you'll just look like twice the used car salesman you appear to be. That's OK tho...thanks for the entertainment.
Please continue...