Ok need some opinions from those who either have been in this situation or have knowledge of the legal ramifications. The sheriff I currently work for is narrow minded and refuses to discuss providing me with a department issue tactical(sniper) rifle. I have my own but am concerned with the legal issues if I have to use it. I keep it in my unit, but dont want to take the chance of losing my weapon or having it mistreated if I have to turn it over. Any advice is appreciated.
To carry or not to carry
- Thread starter topgun99
- Start date
Re: To carry or not to carry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leave it at home. </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leave it at home. </div></div>
+1
Re: To carry or not to carry
+2 leave it at home - If you have not been certified with the rifle by your state or county minimum standards entity, and you have not been certified by your department to carry and/or deploy with it, you will not be covered under any sovereign immunity-based tort claim process or insurance should you use the rifle in the line of duty.
The personal risk to you is too great.
+2 leave it at home - If you have not been certified with the rifle by your state or county minimum standards entity, and you have not been certified by your department to carry and/or deploy with it, you will not be covered under any sovereign immunity-based tort claim process or insurance should you use the rifle in the line of duty.
The personal risk to you is too great.
Re: To carry or not to carry
How about some clarification: The Sheriff wont issue you a department issue rifle, but will he approve you carrying your personal rifle????
If he wont, and you carry you are opening yourself up to all kinds of problems. I'd vote NO.
However, if he wont issue, but will allow you to carry your personal rifle, then I'd carry it. If you have to use it, you're going to loose it until the case is cleared, same with any weapon used by LE. But if you HAVE use it, you HAVE to use it. It may save your life or someone else's life. That's a no brainer to me.
When I was in LE, (started anyway) our long guns consisted of some Model 94 Winchesters and Thompson SMGs (which no one knew how to use). I went to the AMU sniper school (the requirement to get into that school at the time was the assurance you would go back to your unit/dept and start a program). I did that. I bought a rifle (per the guidence of the AMU Sniper School) and got premission to carry it. Never had an problem. If I lost it for some reason I'd bought another one, cheap insurance.
Even later on, when we got a SWAT (we called them CRT) the Patrol LT told me to keep the rifle, saying if he needed a rifle he needed one and may not have the time for a call out.
I finished my career, took my rifle with me when I left, its now a varmit rifle.
But again, I had premission to carry a personal rifle. What happened was I showed them a rifle was an asset, not a liability.
When we started our SWAT (CRT) I was the one who did the initial rifle training, mainly because of my actions and training. Attending the AMU Sniper School got me certified by the Alaska Police Standards council as a LE Sniper/Counter Sniper Instructor.
PS: As for certification. I know Oklahoma has some sort of LE rifle certification. There were two OK State Trooper guys who went to sniper school with me. Assuming your sheriff will allow you to carry your personal rifle, contact your POST and asked about what certification they require.
How about some clarification: The Sheriff wont issue you a department issue rifle, but will he approve you carrying your personal rifle????
If he wont, and you carry you are opening yourself up to all kinds of problems. I'd vote NO.
However, if he wont issue, but will allow you to carry your personal rifle, then I'd carry it. If you have to use it, you're going to loose it until the case is cleared, same with any weapon used by LE. But if you HAVE use it, you HAVE to use it. It may save your life or someone else's life. That's a no brainer to me.
When I was in LE, (started anyway) our long guns consisted of some Model 94 Winchesters and Thompson SMGs (which no one knew how to use). I went to the AMU sniper school (the requirement to get into that school at the time was the assurance you would go back to your unit/dept and start a program). I did that. I bought a rifle (per the guidence of the AMU Sniper School) and got premission to carry it. Never had an problem. If I lost it for some reason I'd bought another one, cheap insurance.
Even later on, when we got a SWAT (we called them CRT) the Patrol LT told me to keep the rifle, saying if he needed a rifle he needed one and may not have the time for a call out.
I finished my career, took my rifle with me when I left, its now a varmit rifle.
But again, I had premission to carry a personal rifle. What happened was I showed them a rifle was an asset, not a liability.
When we started our SWAT (CRT) I was the one who did the initial rifle training, mainly because of my actions and training. Attending the AMU Sniper School got me certified by the Alaska Police Standards council as a LE Sniper/Counter Sniper Instructor.
PS: As for certification. I know Oklahoma has some sort of LE rifle certification. There were two OK State Trooper guys who went to sniper school with me. Assuming your sheriff will allow you to carry your personal rifle, contact your POST and asked about what certification they require.
Re: To carry or not to carry
I'm not sure I understand your post here. Have you been designated by your job as a scoped rifle marksman? Meaning have you been given any formal training in the employment of such a weapon and the tactics that come with it?
Or are you just freelancing it? Either way if your boss does not want to give you the tools to do the job, don't do the job. Don't go setting yourself up for liability by using your own personal weapon on company time.
I'm not sure I understand your post here. Have you been designated by your job as a scoped rifle marksman? Meaning have you been given any formal training in the employment of such a weapon and the tactics that come with it?
Or are you just freelancing it? Either way if your boss does not want to give you the tools to do the job, don't do the job. Don't go setting yourself up for liability by using your own personal weapon on company time.
Re: To carry or not to carry
Like kraigWY said above, we need more info.
If your agency allows the carry of personally owned weapons (carried in compliance with relevant policies of course) and you use it, you will definitely lose that weapon for few months or years, if not indefinitely. There's nothing you can do about that, and if that's a concern, then I vote NO. What's your agency's policy for replacement if they keep it in evidence forever? Is that financially acceptable to you? If not, then I vote NO.
Are you on the SWAT team for your agency? Are you a designated sniper/marksman for your dept who has attended the required schools?
Under no circumstances should you carry a weapon on duty that is not authorized/approved by your agency and that you have not trained and qualified with. The box of legal ugly you open up if you use it is....well, ugly.
Like kraigWY said above, we need more info.
If your agency allows the carry of personally owned weapons (carried in compliance with relevant policies of course) and you use it, you will definitely lose that weapon for few months or years, if not indefinitely. There's nothing you can do about that, and if that's a concern, then I vote NO. What's your agency's policy for replacement if they keep it in evidence forever? Is that financially acceptable to you? If not, then I vote NO.
Are you on the SWAT team for your agency? Are you a designated sniper/marksman for your dept who has attended the required schools?
Under no circumstances should you carry a weapon on duty that is not authorized/approved by your agency and that you have not trained and qualified with. The box of legal ugly you open up if you use it is....well, ugly.
Re: To carry or not to carry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can a LE agency want snipers but NOT provided them with rifles, ammo and equipment</div></div>
It's simple, MONEY. Many small departments just don't have the funds. A good officer will do what he can to do his job, even if he/doen't get the support from the department whether is budget concerns or not.
I ran into this a lot, more with EOD then firearms. It got so bad the FBI changed the criteria for attending the Hazardous Device School in Huntsville. A lot of small departments would send officers to the school but couldn't afford to by X-Rays, RMIs (Robots), bomb buckets, etc etc. so you had bomb techss running around with the equipment they bought of built themselves. At Redstone they gave us a crimping tool, and told us how to make water cannons and sent us home, that's all the tech had in many departments (mine was different but it took a bomb teck getting blowed up to get the city to change)
Its the same with firearms, patrol rifles or counter sniper systems.
Its kind of like saying I'm not gonna I'm not going to wear a bullet proof vest because I wasn't issued one.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can a LE agency want snipers but NOT provided them with rifles, ammo and equipment</div></div>
It's simple, MONEY. Many small departments just don't have the funds. A good officer will do what he can to do his job, even if he/doen't get the support from the department whether is budget concerns or not.
I ran into this a lot, more with EOD then firearms. It got so bad the FBI changed the criteria for attending the Hazardous Device School in Huntsville. A lot of small departments would send officers to the school but couldn't afford to by X-Rays, RMIs (Robots), bomb buckets, etc etc. so you had bomb techss running around with the equipment they bought of built themselves. At Redstone they gave us a crimping tool, and told us how to make water cannons and sent us home, that's all the tech had in many departments (mine was different but it took a bomb teck getting blowed up to get the city to change)
Its the same with firearms, patrol rifles or counter sniper systems.
Its kind of like saying I'm not gonna I'm not going to wear a bullet proof vest because I wasn't issued one.
Re: To carry or not to carry
Sorry, let me clarify. I am certified and am recognized through the state. I graduated from a state certified school in 1999 in Arkansas and Oklahoma accepted that certification when I moved back home. Neither of those states have a rule requiring you to carry the weapon you qualified with as long as it is of the same type its ok. My sheriff has approved me to carry my own but when I tried to discuss buying one he told me he would look into it. This went on for a while and I was talking to our grants admin. who told me we had extra funds available that needed to be spent. I asked that she talk to the sheriff. She told me his response was " I haven't seen the need to snipe anyone lately". He is completely dumb to what a valuable tool a precision marksman can be to a dept. not to mention the community as a whole. I know that I may be taking a great risk but know how I would feel if not having it caused a loss of life especially for a brother or sister in uniform. But the other side of it is, I know I will get the gun back if I have to use it, but I have alot of money in it(not as much as many here but alot for me) and don't trust others to handle it. Is it going to get thrown around in some trunk or closet till they get around to examining it and I get cleared? I just don't know if its worth it.
Sorry, let me clarify. I am certified and am recognized through the state. I graduated from a state certified school in 1999 in Arkansas and Oklahoma accepted that certification when I moved back home. Neither of those states have a rule requiring you to carry the weapon you qualified with as long as it is of the same type its ok. My sheriff has approved me to carry my own but when I tried to discuss buying one he told me he would look into it. This went on for a while and I was talking to our grants admin. who told me we had extra funds available that needed to be spent. I asked that she talk to the sheriff. She told me his response was " I haven't seen the need to snipe anyone lately". He is completely dumb to what a valuable tool a precision marksman can be to a dept. not to mention the community as a whole. I know that I may be taking a great risk but know how I would feel if not having it caused a loss of life especially for a brother or sister in uniform. But the other side of it is, I know I will get the gun back if I have to use it, but I have alot of money in it(not as much as many here but alot for me) and don't trust others to handle it. Is it going to get thrown around in some trunk or closet till they get around to examining it and I get cleared? I just don't know if its worth it.
Re: To carry or not to carry
Seems like the only decision you have to make is whether to risk having your current rifle stuck in an evidence locker, or some other lesser duty rifle.
Seems like the only decision you have to make is whether to risk having your current rifle stuck in an evidence locker, or some other lesser duty rifle.
Re: To carry or not to carry
TopGun,
PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy of the AMU LE Sniper/Counter sniper guide in .pdf format.
I think if your chief reads it, you'll have a better chance of selling your position. It will also help you choose a system.
TopGun,
PM me with your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy of the AMU LE Sniper/Counter sniper guide in .pdf format.
I think if your chief reads it, you'll have a better chance of selling your position. It will also help you choose a system.
Re: To carry or not to carry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Its kind of like saying I'm not gonna I'm not going to wear a bullet proof vest because I wasn't issued one. </div></div>
I hear what you're saying Kraig but with that kind of mentality where does it stop? We can't afford patrol cars so you're going to have to use your own personal vehicle. We don't have money for comms so you're going to have to purchase your own radio etc etc. If the community wants a police force then they should equip it's officers accordingly. If they want specialized capabilities then again they should spend the money to properly train and equip them.
How come we never hear of firemen having to purchase their own hose lines?
To the OP, if your boss is ignorant to the fact of why snipers/observers are a valuable asset to his agency then you should do your best to educate him. Judging from his response of "we ain't ever need to snipe nobody before", I can tell that he doesn't have a clue about the role a sniper/observer can play in a dynamic situation. Educate him, come up with a presentation and show him that it's not just about "taking the shot". You may change his mind.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Its kind of like saying I'm not gonna I'm not going to wear a bullet proof vest because I wasn't issued one. </div></div>
I hear what you're saying Kraig but with that kind of mentality where does it stop? We can't afford patrol cars so you're going to have to use your own personal vehicle. We don't have money for comms so you're going to have to purchase your own radio etc etc. If the community wants a police force then they should equip it's officers accordingly. If they want specialized capabilities then again they should spend the money to properly train and equip them.
How come we never hear of firemen having to purchase their own hose lines?
To the OP, if your boss is ignorant to the fact of why snipers/observers are a valuable asset to his agency then you should do your best to educate him. Judging from his response of "we ain't ever need to snipe nobody before", I can tell that he doesn't have a clue about the role a sniper/observer can play in a dynamic situation. Educate him, come up with a presentation and show him that it's not just about "taking the shot". You may change his mind.
Re: To carry or not to carry
Thanks for the input and I have thought of some kind of presentation...the problem is he is the kind that if its not his idea it probably wont get implemented. For example, he just executed a grant to purchase three boats to be placed with fire depts. in our county for swift water rescue...and purchased three military surplus humvees from a GSA auction to pull them. And our dept. has no swift water rescue team or plans to develop one, its all for the fire depts. Now I am all about cooperation with fire and medical in a disaster situation or whatever the case may be, but they are capable of writing their own grants for whatever equipment they may need. It's all about buying votes. Our dept. executes numerous search warrants a month, have had several hostage situations and other incidents yet we have no formal SRT team or conduct training of any kind. I know that we are open to a lawsuit if things go bad and it did several years ago when a state trooper was shot and killed while executing a warrant. I am doubtful of changing his mind.
Thanks for the input and I have thought of some kind of presentation...the problem is he is the kind that if its not his idea it probably wont get implemented. For example, he just executed a grant to purchase three boats to be placed with fire depts. in our county for swift water rescue...and purchased three military surplus humvees from a GSA auction to pull them. And our dept. has no swift water rescue team or plans to develop one, its all for the fire depts. Now I am all about cooperation with fire and medical in a disaster situation or whatever the case may be, but they are capable of writing their own grants for whatever equipment they may need. It's all about buying votes. Our dept. executes numerous search warrants a month, have had several hostage situations and other incidents yet we have no formal SRT team or conduct training of any kind. I know that we are open to a lawsuit if things go bad and it did several years ago when a state trooper was shot and killed while executing a warrant. I am doubtful of changing his mind.
Re: To carry or not to carry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: topgun99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the problem is he is the kind that if its not his idea it probably wont get implemented. </div></div>
I know the type. Unfortunately they are tough to deal with but it's not impossible. Work on it and sell him on the idea of a more capable sheriff's dept that is ready to handle any sort of threat that may come its way.
Present it to him in a way that he feels as though he came up with most of if not the whole concept. That way you get the funding you need to get the proper equipment and maybe start a small team and he can sell this new "capability" to his constituents. I'm guessing that he is an elected official and what matters most to those folks is votes. That would be another tool he could use to get votes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: topgun99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the problem is he is the kind that if its not his idea it probably wont get implemented. </div></div>
I know the type. Unfortunately they are tough to deal with but it's not impossible. Work on it and sell him on the idea of a more capable sheriff's dept that is ready to handle any sort of threat that may come its way.
Present it to him in a way that he feels as though he came up with most of if not the whole concept. That way you get the funding you need to get the proper equipment and maybe start a small team and he can sell this new "capability" to his constituents. I'm guessing that he is an elected official and what matters most to those folks is votes. That would be another tool he could use to get votes.
Re: To carry or not to carry
If you are covered as far as certification is concerned and you want to carry your personal rifle, get something in writing from the Sheriff authorizing you to use your personal rifle. Then find an agency which trains regularly with scoped rifles and participate in documented training with the rifle and the ammo you plan to carry. If you can get all that accomplished you should be good to go.
I use my personal rifle for work, a couple of them actually. You always run the risk of losing the rifle for an extended period of time if you have to use it. Only you can decide if that is worth the risk.
If you are covered as far as certification is concerned and you want to carry your personal rifle, get something in writing from the Sheriff authorizing you to use your personal rifle. Then find an agency which trains regularly with scoped rifles and participate in documented training with the rifle and the ammo you plan to carry. If you can get all that accomplished you should be good to go.
I use my personal rifle for work, a couple of them actually. You always run the risk of losing the rifle for an extended period of time if you have to use it. Only you can decide if that is worth the risk.
Re: To carry or not to carry
Leave it home. You'll open yourself up to a civil lawsuit if you have ever have to use it and anyone questions the legitimacy of the shoot. If your Sheriff is that narrow minded he may not back you up, the department will not back you up and the county won't back you up because in the end it's all about the dollar. Your motives are admirable but use the weapons you are issued. It's not worth losing your job, ruining your life and going to jail over.
Leave it home. You'll open yourself up to a civil lawsuit if you have ever have to use it and anyone questions the legitimacy of the shoot. If your Sheriff is that narrow minded he may not back you up, the department will not back you up and the county won't back you up because in the end it's all about the dollar. Your motives are admirable but use the weapons you are issued. It's not worth losing your job, ruining your life and going to jail over.
Re: To carry or not to carry
That's a pathetically common LE "Administrator" view. I wish I could say it's a surprise. Further, all of the wheels will turn when they need a precision marksman and/or his gear and neither are available.
It may cost a life to leave your gun home, but it probably won't be yours. Leave it home and let the sheriff explain, after the deployment was needed most, why he has a trained marksman and no equipment.
That's a pathetically common LE "Administrator" view. I wish I could say it's a surprise. Further, all of the wheels will turn when they need a precision marksman and/or his gear and neither are available.
It may cost a life to leave your gun home, but it probably won't be yours. Leave it home and let the sheriff explain, after the deployment was needed most, why he has a trained marksman and no equipment.
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Re: To carry or not to carry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FX44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leave it home. You'll open yourself up to a civil lawsuit if you have ever have to use it and anyone questions the legitimacy of the shoot. If your Sheriff is that narrow minded he may not back you up, the department will not back you up and the county won't back you up because in the end it's all about the dollar. Your motives are admirable but use the weapons you are issued. It's not worth losing your job, ruining your life and going to jail over. </div></div>
+1
Many admins/tict's will hand-wring an skirt an issue hoping someone else will standup. Then when it goes south, your on your own. Their answer to the jury will be,(an has been) that was not the intent, and he/she was never told that was allowed or needed. Never use your gear on the job, even if it's in writing.
If any agency will not provide the item, it's not your place/job to do so. Research the amount of folks burned via their own gear vs those who benefited from using same.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FX44</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Leave it home. You'll open yourself up to a civil lawsuit if you have ever have to use it and anyone questions the legitimacy of the shoot. If your Sheriff is that narrow minded he may not back you up, the department will not back you up and the county won't back you up because in the end it's all about the dollar. Your motives are admirable but use the weapons you are issued. It's not worth losing your job, ruining your life and going to jail over. </div></div>
+1
Many admins/tict's will hand-wring an skirt an issue hoping someone else will standup. Then when it goes south, your on your own. Their answer to the jury will be,(an has been) that was not the intent, and he/she was never told that was allowed or needed. Never use your gear on the job, even if it's in writing.
If any agency will not provide the item, it's not your place/job to do so. Research the amount of folks burned via their own gear vs those who benefited from using same.
Re: To carry or not to carry
I appreciate all the responses. I am leaving it at home and hope that the next administration will be more open minded. The current sheriff has made so many false promises and pissed off so many former supporters it looks like he will be out the door next year.
I appreciate all the responses. I am leaving it at home and hope that the next administration will be more open minded. The current sheriff has made so many false promises and pissed off so many former supporters it looks like he will be out the door next year.
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