Told to "Embrace stop and frisk" Policing....
- Thread starter THEIS
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If I get a hold of a time machine, I think I'll have a lot of fun going back in time and making sure slavery never existed in America and anybody that tried to promote the idea of slavery or bring slaves wound up dead instantly, probably bring a few flame throwers to impress the no slaves ever things on the first couple batches of settlers to America.
If they would just actually incarcerate people they arrested for breaking the law the crime rate would drop precipitously. BUT...liberals don't like to do that. It's racist, apparently.
Honestly, I fail to see how it's the rest of our problem. If you don't want it to be your problem, stay out of those areas of Chicago. Personally, I'll stay out of Chicago altogether.
Honestly, I fail to see how it's the rest of our problem. If you don't want it to be your problem, stay out of those areas of Chicago. Personally, I'll stay out of Chicago altogether.
Here's the horrible truth of Stop and Frisk: it fucking works. It fucking worked at least since 1968 when the Supreme Court decided the Terry case.
It's how the cops kept a handle on small shit and kept it from leading to big shit like the violence you now see in big cities after Obama's "Justice" Dept unilaterally overruled the Supreme Court. It was one of the only Constitutional means that cops had to maintain some semblance of order in the worst neighborhoods you can imagine.
The reason it was eliminated under BHO was that it was seen as racist. If you want to condemn it then condemn it as racist, or disregard Terry and say that it's not actually Consitutional, but don't condemn it as bad policing strategy. Seriously, it fucking works and I have seen it work repeatedly in the areas where even Sirhr would be questioning if he had enough armament to drive through.
It's how the cops kept a handle on small shit and kept it from leading to big shit like the violence you now see in big cities after Obama's "Justice" Dept unilaterally overruled the Supreme Court. It was one of the only Constitutional means that cops had to maintain some semblance of order in the worst neighborhoods you can imagine.
The reason it was eliminated under BHO was that it was seen as racist. If you want to condemn it then condemn it as racist, or disregard Terry and say that it's not actually Consitutional, but don't condemn it as bad policing strategy. Seriously, it fucking works and I have seen it work repeatedly in the areas where even Sirhr would be questioning if he had enough armament to drive through.
Attempting to overlook the incredible amounts of racist tripe being spewed here, let me preface this opinion by stating that I've spent 27 years living (on and off) in Cook County. My family has a history that has tied us to land on the near north side (Halsted between North and Division) for well over 100 years. That's literally across the street from what became and now what was Cabrini Green. I spent time in that "hood" since before I was old enough to remember and was one of the gentrification pioneers (late 90's) living in the the skid row that would eventually be known as the West Loop. During those 27 years I never owned a gun and never had a violent encounter.
Any argument that attempts to understand the current situation in Chicago through the lens of policing is a dead end. It isn't the result of a failure of policing and it won't be fixed with some new version of draconian violations of the principles that are the foundation of the republic.
Some light reading if you actually want to try and understand the situation:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/18/us/chicago-murder-problem.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/06/...-with-them-the-promise-of-public-housing.html
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/stampp-corbin/the-chicago-gang-diaspora_b_11752260.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/petesa...me-epidemic-have-economic-roots/#334b10895d83
Any argument that attempts to understand the current situation in Chicago through the lens of policing is a dead end. It isn't the result of a failure of policing and it won't be fixed with some new version of draconian violations of the principles that are the foundation of the republic.
Some light reading if you actually want to try and understand the situation:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/05/18/us/chicago-murder-problem.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/06/...-with-them-the-promise-of-public-housing.html
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/stampp-corbin/the-chicago-gang-diaspora_b_11752260.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/petesa...me-epidemic-have-economic-roots/#334b10895d83
there are enough good people left in the shitty Hoods in Chicago, I been there, not all of them are fucked up, the good ones do live in fear, so arming them would be the right move, cops are incapable of doing the job without becoming a wider threat to society than the criminals are in the long run.
I dont want empowered armed agents of the state, its bad enough already.
QUOTE="Nik H, post: 7275723, member: 97580"]Jerry,
Then you will be prosecuting what used to be good citizens. The crimes aren't happening where people who can afford a gun are living.
Send out the Army and let them handle it. The rats will run and quickly when they see patrols of men armed with M4s[/QUOTE]
I dont want empowered armed agents of the state, its bad enough already.
QUOTE="Nik H, post: 7275723, member: 97580"]Jerry,
Then you will be prosecuting what used to be good citizens. The crimes aren't happening where people who can afford a gun are living.
Send out the Army and let them handle it. The rats will run and quickly when they see patrols of men armed with M4s[/QUOTE]
So, tell me, then, why are you here? It can't be because you have a dog in our fight, because you presumably don't. A 27-year stretch without firearms? SERIOUSLY? Go back to DU, or Starbucks, or wherever in the fuck it is that you're most comfortable and safe-feeling, and drop the preaching here. Really, I'm sick of the sight of your shit, and I hardly think myself alone in that regard.
If you want to be taken seriously don’t link to articles in the NY Times and Huffpost. Those rags are an immediate disqualifier to any credibility.
Ya'll know that this thread has been infiltrated by the FBI (Federal Bureau of Intimidation) and any hasty words toward the powers at be, may put you at risk of being Frisked....
All 27 years were prior to 2007, prior to 2008's SCOTUS ruling. Dog in what fight? I'm pretty confidant my firearms experience and ownership is on par with anyone on this forum. Judging by many of the idiotic replies in this thread alone I know my understanding of the rights of citizens of this republic surpasses that of many. You're sick of my non sycophantic shit? Awww geeze, sorry, but I'm all out of fucks to give.
The better idea is let the good people of Chicago be armed and let the crooks live in fear if they want to continue being crooks.
I don't think there is any way to get to there from here that isn't going to be painful.
Stop and frisk would suck but it might be the straw that breaks the Dalyites back.
I don't think there is any way to get to there from here that isn't going to be painful.
Stop and frisk would suck but it might be the straw that breaks the Dalyites back.
Stop and frisk is a blatant violation of constitutional rights. Getting more heavy handed with police tactics will just get the police even more hated. A cop is never around if you need one anyway. Its up to the citizens to arm themselves if they want to continue living there. Predators stop being predators when the prey is armed.
Do I understand you to say you've only owned firearms since 2008 and you feel your firearms experience is on par with anyone on this forum?
Hmmm to be an asshole or not........
I have ammo stored that is over 27 years old. Everyone has to get into the game at some point. But to say you are "on par" with just 10 years experience to those of us who are at 20+ years of ownership/experience is pretty fucking arrogant.
I know some who have owned longer than myself but who are some what "gun retarded". But they also do not hang out around here.
I would say that 99.9% here center around guns and spread slowly out from there.
Subjects come up almost weekly that I do not agree with. It is not worth anyone's time for me to input my $0.02 into those threads.
I will not convert anyone into devil worship nor will they me into Christianity (just a mediphor).
Gun ownership, freedom, constitution are what bring most here. If you are here for those reasons then great. If not then GTFO.
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There are likely men on this board who were killing commies in Asia before dude was born. There are countless men on the board who, like myself, had a rifle in their hands before hitting double digits in age. Snipers with more kills in the sandbox than they care to remember. There are marksmen on this board who are some of the best in the world! But yeah, bro, picking up a rifle in 2008 puts you on par with them. *smh*
In my experience with the internet, which goes back to its first broad availability, usernames incorporating some manifestation of the word “truth” are always the most full of shit.
In my experience with the internet, which goes back to its first broad availability, usernames incorporating some manifestation of the word “truth” are always the most full of shit.
No, all I said was that while living in Cook County I didn't own a firearm. From age 0-17 it wasn't really an issue. Later on it was a conscious choice made to avoid unnecessary complications in order to achieve certain goals that required being in Cook County.
I'm not trying to be arrogant, just being honest with the time I've put in to mastering a certain skill set. I'm not about to measure dicks, but I have no fear of public urinals. I'd like to think that I honor the teaching that I've been fortunate to receive every time I send one down range. We're here for the same reasons, so I'll stick around, even if just to keep pissing Veer off. The loss of the ability to discuss topics from various perspectives in constructive and civil ways is perhaps the greatest threat we face. Operating as if life is a zero sum game is not a viable long term strategy.
I must have missed the combat kill drop down when I registered for the site. My bowels still function like clockwork, but appreciate the concern. Coffee, Cope and we're GTG.
Maybe free food and housing could be given to those at risk for violence? I’m sure that would help.
D
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It is no big deal to me as long as it is occurring in areas I consider the Gaza Strip and West Bank of America. I hate those fucking people. Pompous fucks with their fucking out of control ghettos. They're a bunch of fucking seditionists that allow Antifa to destroy their own property. As far as I'm concerned they all deserve each other. Fuck 'em
No shit, and even if we put a sunset on it, these motherfuckers will only vote to extend it... Until 20 years later it gets made permanent. That's how America is dying. You can be the most free nation and also have the highest incarceration rate, higher than all the other top five combined (which also includes the worst 3rd world dictatorships).
Either we're free or it's a constitutional dictatorship (meaning the constitution part isn't all that important). You tell me, because I'm getting confused.
Yeah, it works. Probably works really well. You know what else works? Door kicking and curfews. Oh, and we should ban groups of three or more, guns, and rap music. We could have Verizon and AT&T tell us who some of these targets are or might be. We can set up a hotline where people can turn in friends and family that have attitudes conducive of violence.
This stuff all works.
This stuff all works.
Terry is fine. The problem is that NYPD was searching people on the basis of “probable cause” which means more likely than not evidence of a crime will be found yet they only found something about 12% of the time. Fuck that, for the same reason that a K-9 that can’t bat .510 or better should be removed from service.
Something like 22 trillion dollars has been spent on "The Great Society"/War on Poverty. Unsure what the tab has been on affirmative action.
The underlying causes are not being addressed because doing so would create independent, functional communities that do not require expanded governance and services.
Government will never work to erode its own presence.
You have you’re terms mixed up slightly. Probable cause is the highest standard, and what is needed for arrest. In other words if you had PC, you’d simply arrest. Reasonable suspicion is the standard(the lower standard) needed for Terry or any detention for that matter.
I haven’t seen New York’s former policy on stop and frisk. I’ve googled it, and I only find laymen descriptions, not meat and potatoes policy in how It was supposed to be applied.
I cannot take some random interest in somebody walking down the street, stop them, and pat them down, which kind of sounds like what they were doing. Again, I can’t find the actual policy anywhere. Being in a high crime area is not enough all by itself. Surprised their policy survived as long as it did.
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I agree with @Supersubes
Police take guns off people that shouldnt have them daily.
The initial discovery of the gun is usually a single officer event and only than does it become something everyone drives to and provides backup.
Single officers have taken down cars with multiple occupants even as they depart a murder scene and the occupants did not try to harm the officer.
Currently there is a difference between "cop killer" and "gang banger".
What has happened over the last few years is quickly eroding that though and to some extent I think that is intentional and a desired result.
Sheep in a dystopian world turn to government and will request a police state when one wont be voted for.
My comment above about guns and "people that should not have them" may irk some.
Doesnt the Second Amendment provide for everyone to defend themselves?
No.
Felons have decided to live outside the Constitution and therfore they are not allowed the freedoms it recognizes and prevents government from infringing on.
It surprises me when people proclaim "Why wasnt he in jail" when some career criminal commits a heinous crime.
He wasnt in jail because that serves no purpose to govt right now.
You, on the other hand, commit some process crime with your firearm you will be used as the example of why more Second Amendment restrictions are needed. You will help to serve the govts current agenda.
Doesnt the Second Amendment provide for everyone to defend themselves?
No.
Felons have decided to live outside the Constitution and therfore they are not allowed the freedoms it recognizes and prevents government from infringing on.
It surprises me when people proclaim "Why wasnt he in jail" when some career criminal commits a heinous crime.
He wasnt in jail because that serves no purpose to govt right now.
You, on the other hand, commit some process crime with your firearm you will be used as the example of why more Second Amendment restrictions are needed. You will help to serve the govts current agenda.
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I think everyone here pretty much likes the idea of "reasoned" profiling verses the Homeland Security idea of "every grandma a terrorist".
Walking down the street frisking every kid is unhealthy for a free society.
Recognizing certain markers and behaviors are common to a crime cohort and investigating them is common sense.
Walking down the street frisking every kid is unhealthy for a free society.
Recognizing certain markers and behaviors are common to a crime cohort and investigating them is common sense.
Definitely. What a lot of idiots call 'racism' is just common sense and situational awareness. If a trio of large black men in business suits are walking my way talking normally I'm not going to pay them much heed. But if a pack of hood rat looking kids in oversized NBA jerseys and panty hose on their heads are walking my way shoving eachother and generally misbehaving, I'm crossing the street, no matter if they're white, black, latino or Martian.
People don't put on their skin in the morning, but they do put on potential indicators of their behavior.
Its more than just kids being kids.
The officer must be able to articulate why he came to the decision to act as he did.
It should be a high threshold to lay hands on someone.
You could have a guy with MS-13 tattoos all over him and that alone doesnt give you reason to pat him down.
There has to be enough to it that the common man would say to himself "Yeah, thats reasonable. I would have done the same."
This requires some sort of knowledge and respect for the Constitution on the part of the officer and society in general.
Sadly our education system works against producing that effect.
Nothing to do with racism and I wont acquaint myself with the arguments that say it is so or the best thing to do is wall the city and let them kill each other.
One point of your post is telling.....
"During those 27 years I never owned a gun and never had a violent encounter."
Of course you didnt because you are not in that segment of the community that looks on shootings as part of doing business or engages in the gang activity.
So because you are not affected nothing should be done?
Thats been Rahms position and that is why he is leaving.
How about the young family working their asses off trying to do the right thing with only enough money to live in a crime ridden area? The mom that used her Hi Point carbine to chase off home invaders in that area is my hero. I wish she would get some help from her officials her taxes pay the salary of.
But she wont because the shootings dont effect contributions to politicians, in fact they enhance them, as donors donate to ensure that crime stays contained to the "bad" areas and never comes to their neighborhoods.
Changes need to be made in the courts.
They need to start treating gun criminals the way they want to treat lawful gun owners.
Abuse your freedoms protected from infringement in the Constitution there should be a high bar to jump to get them back and a serious loss of freedom.
Probation isnt the answer.
So your decade of "experience" beats my half century? Got it.
