training for Competition!

[jkkfam89]

I live in Michigan and want to start training to eventually participate in some competitions. First, anyone in Michigan that would like a training partner? Also, looking for the optimal round for competition? When I say competition, I am speaking of Snipershide cup and similar comps. Please give a fellow member guidence. I am thinking 6.5 cm or 260 as for the optimal round. Optics, looking at SB or NF 5-25 ish. Thanks for all and any help!

 

[Graham]

Re: training for Competition!

Spend the money and time to take a PR1/2 class at Rifles Only.

The AE MK III in .260 is a good all-around practical rifle. A few years ago I would have said .308, and I still do, but the Sniper's Hide Cup has changed and a unless it is set-up right a .308 can be a disadvantage with the format of Zak's matches.

If you want a 5-25 get a SB. But you will rarely need magnification above 15-17x. If you want a solid practical scope get a NF 3.5-15 F1 or the new Steiner 4-16. If you want to save money get the Bushnell DMR.

 

[223ai]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The AE MK III in .260 is a good all-around practical rifle. A few years ago I would have said .308, and I still do, but the Sniper's Hide Cup has changed and a unless it is set-up right a .308 can be a disadvantage with the format of Zak's matches.
.</div></div>

Agreed on the training and equipment...

You've piqued my curiosity with the above, I'm assuming you mean bullets and/or speed (fast 155's vs relatively slow 175's)?

JP

 

[Graham]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You've piqued my curiosity with the above, I'm assuming you mean bullets and/or speed (fast 155's vs relatively slow 175's)?</div></div>I shoot .308 180VLD LBTs at 2740fps in my AE, and have for the last three years and 3200 rounds. I'm still on the original barrel. And it's a .580BC bullet. Run the numbers on that and then tell me I need a .260 at Rifles Only.

 

[223ai]

Re: training for Competition!

You're preaching to the choir my friend. Though I am gravitating towards fast .223's, with high bc heavies...matching my 260 to 1100.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: training for Competition!

Go .260 of 6.5 Creedmoor, it's a huge advantage over .308. A 142SMK or 140 Amax at 2900-2950 is freakin IMPRESSIVE!

If you don't have a rifle yet then I suggest doing something in a medium Palma weight barrel and stay around 24"-26" to really get those heavies moving. I also suggest the Nightforce. Great medium for cost and performance. They built tough too.

 

[Graham]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're preaching to the choir my friend. Though I am gravitating towards fast .223's, with high bc heavies...matching my 260 to 1100. </div></div>Speed is fine, but BC is final. That, and when the bullet speaks BC has the last word.

Thus I would take 80BC points over 80fps any day of the week, and a 7-08 over a 6.5 if given the choice. Because real-world performance in the wind is really not about velocity.

I do shoot Scenars, but that's to give me the BC of 175SMKs with 2720fps when shooting my 18" bbl on the same line with the military and/or cops.

 

[jbailey]

Re: training for Competition!

My advice is to get a rig together that doesn't break the bank and then get out there. Once you get out there and start doing the comps, you are going to figure out what you like and don't like and you are going to change your rig. Not having a ton invested until you know what's up will save you lots of $'s.

 

[turbo54]

Re: training for Competition!

Bully, are you in the Hartland area?

I'm in the Ann Arbor area.

Would be glad to meet up sometime soon and do some training.

We have a great gunclub (paper only though!) just outside AA in Ypsi.

Drop me a line.

ETA: You can run my 260, 308 and 284 to get an idea of what suits you. My opinion is a 308-based 6, 6.5 or 7mm that doesn't require much "case prep" is ideal for our sport. The 260 is really tough be beat as an all around competition cartridge, though I personally prefer the slightly better wind-drift and considerably better barrel life of the 7mm-08.

 

[fargo007]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're preaching to the choir my friend. Though I am gravitating towards fast .223's, with high bc heavies...matching my 260 to 1100. </div></div>Speed is fine, but BC is final. That, and when the bullet speaks BC has the last word.

Thus I would take 80BC points over 80fps any day of the week, and a 7-08 over a 6.5 if given the choice. Because real-world performance in the wind is really not about velocity.

I do shoot Scenars, but that's to give me the BC of 175SMKs with 2720fps when shooting my 18" bbl on the same line with the military and/or cops. </div></div>

Energy on target is another consideration given that not all these matches are on paper. If you make a steel target at long range move dynamically, there's no question it was a hit. If you hit it with a very small, low energy bullet, it's up to the skill of the spotter to decide where it went. This might not always go in your favor.

Misses too - Depending on the background where the bullet goes, you have a lot more chance seeing splash as the energy goes up.

So I guess I'm saying that the type or nature of the comps plays a role here too.

--Fargo007

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: training for Competition!



Energy on target is another consideration given that not all these matches are on paper. If you make a steel target at long range move dynamically, there's no question it was a hit. If you hit it with a very small, low energy bullet, it's up to the skill of the spotter to decide where it went. This might not always go in your favor.

Misses too - Depending on the background where the bullet goes, you have a lot more chance seeing splash as the energy goes up.

So I guess I'm saying that the type or nature of the comps plays a role here too.

--Fargo007

I have seen this be a huge x factor in some matches. Nothing worse than having more shots at a target and getting a "No Call" on the first round. I am starting to like my 6 Creed Gas gun More and More but certain Field type matches with steel at longer ranges will see the 300, 7WSM or 284 at the least.I can spot myself much better.



[/quote]

 

[Graham]

Re: training for Competition!

Yup: There's nothing like a 190SMK at 3200fps to punch a hole in the steel and ensure a positive target indication....Not to mention any names......

 

[Mendocino]

Re: training for Competition!

In addition to gear considerations and time driving your gun you want to get fit. The Sniper's Hide Cup is reasonably physical and you will be miserable if you are not in decent shape.

 

[Graham]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendocino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In addition to gear considerations and time driving your gun you want to get fit. The Sniper's Hide Cup is reasonably physical and you will be miserable if you are not in decent shape. </div></div>Yeah, to say nothing about the other matches which are even worse - meaning better.

 

[Jon Lester]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup: There's nothing like a 190SMK at 3200fps to punch a hole in the steel and ensure a positive target indication....Not to mention any names......

</div></div>

Just to be clear, <span style="font-weight: bold">That was not me!</span> I left mine at home because I knew that lot of ammo killed targets. I ran the 7WSM.

But I do know who it was. And I have ventilated steel to prove it. Actually some of that lot was Chronoed at 3320 over an Ohler 35P

 

[Mendocino]

Re: training for Competition!

Graham, you have first hand experience of this.

Just wait for the 2013 schedule...which will be out soon. "Bring your A game."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendocino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In addition to gear considerations and time driving your gun you want to get fit. The Sniper's Hide Cup is reasonably physical and you will be miserable if you are not in decent shape. </div></div>Yeah, to say nothing about the other matches which are even worse - meaning better.

</div></div>

 

[Graham]

Re: training for Competition!

John, no, it wasn't you. I didn't mean that.

Competition Dyamics puts on some great matches. If I have the time I would love to do a few more of them next year!

 

[jkkfam89]

Re: training for Competition!

Thanks for the help! Pr 1/2 signed up for!

 

[maccrazy2]

Re: training for Competition!

I have shot matches in colorado, Wyoming and new mexico. Hands down the 6.5 mm bullets are the most popular. The 6mm CM is gaining popularity but right now the 260 and similar are the most popular.
I tried the 155's in my 308 but my rifle did not like them. I switched calibers last winter and it has been great. Scores went up a few points and it is cheaper to load ammo.
I switched to a S&b 5-25 pm2 from a uso 3.2-17 in most situations the 17 power was fine but i lime the option for higher power if i want it. Like the blue steel ranch where the steel safari is held. When i am on top of the plateau shooting down into the valley. I can crank up the power all the way and mirrage is not an issue. That said i could live with lower power but i figured if i am spending the money why not make sure i have enough power.
I personally would stick with ffp scopes. After using mine for 3 years now i hate to go back to sfp. I have one on my 338 lapua. It is a pain as i have to constantly think about the correct holds for wind. Where the elr match is heald at the whittington center you are shooting uphill and the ground is nearly parallel to the bullet path. Mirrage is quite bad so i end up shooting the match on the max power i can clearly (somewhat) see the target. I constantly have to play with the power to keep the targets focused. In turn i have to keep figuring the correct holdoff. I strongly recomend ffp scope for tactical matches as it is one thing less to think about.

 

[fargo007]

Re: training for Competition!

One is not better than the other if you take personal preference out of it. Depends what you shoot better with.

I cannot shoot with an FFP scope. The reticle looks thick and floaty to my eye. SFP == no problem, so that's what I use.

You have to keep track of the magnification, but realistically SFP guys typically only use it on 2 settings. Max for milling ant target ID, and half power for actual shooting (doubles the reticle value and the FoV). You already have to check the parallax, and the knobs for dope each shot so a quick glance at the mag ring isn't oppressive.

All I am saying is that you should make sure to try out both focus models and go with the one that you shoot better, or feel more comfortable with.

--Fargo007

 

[jkkfam89]

Re: training for Competition!

to hone skills, is it best to lock in at 100? Work on breathing and trigger control?

 

[fargo007]

Re: training for Competition!

That depends on what skill one intends to work on.

Sure, you could do a lot of good work at 100Y on marksmanship fundamentals. That doesn't mean you should shoot groups all day off a bench with sandbags. Or shoot groups at all for that matter. Groups are for testing ammo and zeroing. Worthless as a training tool, and more dangerously a trap that many fall into and never come out.

It's easy to make your own drills or games up to press the skill set. For example, take five paintballs and tape them to a paper plate at 100Y. See how few rounds you can spend to get them all hit.

A more advanced version of that would be to move your entire position a couple feet for each shot.

--Fargo007

 

[fryj00]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JPipes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're preaching to the choir my friend. Though I am gravitating towards fast .223's, with high bc heavies...matching my 260 to 1100. </div></div>Speed is fine, but BC is final. That, and when the bullet speaks BC has the last word.

Thus I would take 80BC points over 80fps any day of the week, and a 7-08 over a 6.5 if given the choice. Because real-world performance in the wind is really not about velocity.

I do shoot Scenars, but that's to give me the BC of 175SMKs with 2720fps when shooting my 18" bbl on the same line with the military and/or cops. </div></div>


Graham, I run a very similar setup...18 in barrel, 155 Scenars, about 2750. What powder you using?

-Bryan

 

[sled_mack]

Re: training for Competition!

I think the biggest improvement to my shooting this year was running the dot drill at 100 yards with my AR10 every range trip. I try to get to the range at least once a week. Each trip, 20 rounds were dedicated to that drill. Some trips those were the only 20 rounds I fired. But the improvement in my fundamentals was noticable. I think using the .308 semi really made me focus harder on trigger control and follow through.

So yes, focused practice at 100 yards can be useful. But it does not help with wind reading and other factors that come into play at long range. That is where I struggle, finding a place to practice at distances where I can work on these skills.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: training for Competition!

I second the PR 1/2 training. I would also save up and if possible go to one of Competition Dynamics classes, they are very fun and have a different flavor over RO.

Here would be my training suggestions, please note I suck but have been getting better after doing the following:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Get an IOTA and dry fire your ass off, literally 40 minutes 5 times a week.[*]Something silly that I do but have found helps a ton is practicing off of a crappy cat scratching post and using that at least half the time I practice. You can flip them around and get different angles and heights, and they are not too stable so it really makes you focus on building a good position. They are also cheap and don't look out of place when guests come over.[*]Practice at least 1/5 of the time shooting weak side, both prone and off of barriers.[*]You get very few stable prone shots at most of the competitions, prepare accordingly. [/list]
I like the suggestion of the AI in .260 with S&B you will not be sorry you purchased either of them.

 

[jkkfam89]

Re: training for Competition!

I like the AI for sure. What is the main difference between the AI and surgeon? The action of the AI seems to be one of the best I have run.

 

[fargo007]

Re: training for Competition!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think using the .308 semi really made me focus harder on trigger control and follow through.
</div></div>

True. I recently started shooting my DMR gun in <700Y comps, and the extra discipline required is noticeable. You've had professional instruction and have some long range experience stacked up already with a bolt gun so you understand the difference where a beginner might not. It reinforces to me once again that it's best to get the fundamentals down with a bolt gun first. There are less variables to deal with which makes the learning process more streamlined.

--Fargo007