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Rifle Scopes TReMoR 2 Reticle Manual/ Explanation
- Thread starter kfcamerica
- Start date
yeah yeah.... my first post here.. 
The more I read/research about the TReMoR2, the more I'm inclined to get it on my next scope.
The vertical Mil setting is a no-brainer, (we're all soo used to that now) but those Wind Dots are damn smart.
Think; if you've got a Practical Long Range Competition going on, and you 'guess' your wind, and you get it wrong (ok 1 shot lost, but 5 to go). You can merely look at your Wind Dot at point of impact and presto, you've got a better wind value for the rest of the stage, regardless of range to the next targets...
It also makes wind bracketing so much easier, as it's a scale depending on distance. This makes it much easier than a H58/59 as you don't have to work out your wind bracket every time you change to a new target at a different distance... way way way faster... and way way way easier !
Honestly I'm even thinking of getting 2 of these... 1 for .260 rem and the other for training at home on a PCP air-rifle (pellets are cheaper and I don't have to drive an hour to the range...don't laugh).
..although the online calculator only goes as low as 0.1BC, and I need 0.03BC for the .20 pellet.
The wind hold for my .260 is 4mph per dot, so the reticle max's out at 28mph wind (Beufort scale 6: Large branches in motion. Whistling heard in overhead wires. Umbrella use becomes difficult. Empty plastic bins tip over.) Not sure that I'd be that happy shooting in wind higher than that anyway, so it's got plenty of width for me.
...and vertically I'm looking at 9Mils at 1000m.... so it covers pretty much the entire range of what I want to use my .260 for... schweet !
Only thing that I would change:
1. Get rid of is the vertical Mil lines amongst the Wind Dots, as they clutter for little to no benefit (especially at 1 mil between)... although I guess this is applicable for spotter communication. (but at what accuracy?)
2. Why put the numbers through the dots, why not carry them on on the outside. (see the 3, 5 or the 8)
3. Why no Wind Dots at 0 and -0.5 vertical Mils ? (I can understand 0, but why not 0.5 (200m for my rifle)?)
Horus/Todd: Please publish the Wind Dot formula, as not all of us are online all the time in the middle of nowhere.
...and what Drag Model is the online Horus Calculator using ? (G1 or G7 ? or Atrag ?)
...I guess I could probably work it out at 1 Mil across and 1 Mil down corresponds to 5 Wind Dots at 1 Mil down (that's going to hurt my brain).
The more I read/research about the TReMoR2, the more I'm inclined to get it on my next scope.
The vertical Mil setting is a no-brainer, (we're all soo used to that now) but those Wind Dots are damn smart.
Think; if you've got a Practical Long Range Competition going on, and you 'guess' your wind, and you get it wrong (ok 1 shot lost, but 5 to go). You can merely look at your Wind Dot at point of impact and presto, you've got a better wind value for the rest of the stage, regardless of range to the next targets...
It also makes wind bracketing so much easier, as it's a scale depending on distance. This makes it much easier than a H58/59 as you don't have to work out your wind bracket every time you change to a new target at a different distance... way way way faster... and way way way easier !
Honestly I'm even thinking of getting 2 of these... 1 for .260 rem and the other for training at home on a PCP air-rifle (pellets are cheaper and I don't have to drive an hour to the range...don't laugh).
..although the online calculator only goes as low as 0.1BC, and I need 0.03BC for the .20 pellet.
The wind hold for my .260 is 4mph per dot, so the reticle max's out at 28mph wind (Beufort scale 6: Large branches in motion. Whistling heard in overhead wires. Umbrella use becomes difficult. Empty plastic bins tip over.) Not sure that I'd be that happy shooting in wind higher than that anyway, so it's got plenty of width for me.
...and vertically I'm looking at 9Mils at 1000m.... so it covers pretty much the entire range of what I want to use my .260 for... schweet !
Only thing that I would change:
1. Get rid of is the vertical Mil lines amongst the Wind Dots, as they clutter for little to no benefit (especially at 1 mil between)... although I guess this is applicable for spotter communication. (but at what accuracy?)
2. Why put the numbers through the dots, why not carry them on on the outside. (see the 3, 5 or the 8)
3. Why no Wind Dots at 0 and -0.5 vertical Mils ? (I can understand 0, but why not 0.5 (200m for my rifle)?)
Horus/Todd: Please publish the Wind Dot formula, as not all of us are online all the time in the middle of nowhere.
...and what Drag Model is the online Horus Calculator using ? (G1 or G7 ? or Atrag ?)
...I guess I could probably work it out at 1 Mil across and 1 Mil down corresponds to 5 Wind Dots at 1 Mil down (that's going to hurt my brain).
I've been lucky enough to have grown up as a Sniper with both the TMR and the H58 reticles. I graduated Sniper school just under a year ago and was part of one of the early 7 week classes. I put a lot of rounds through the old crusty 3.5-10 TMR mark 4s and a lot of rounds though the 6.5-20 H58 mark 4s. Some guys really liked the H58s, others didn't. I wasn't sold on the H58 personally. I'm not saying it's bad, but I feel it clutters one's field of view more than it needs to. Everything that is hyped so hard with the H58 can be done with a TMR (or similar reticle) just as easily and with far less clutter. Poor man's Horus is ideal for 300-600 meter engagements as you'll be holding near the center of the reticle as you come closer to 600 and at shorter ranges you generally don't have to hold a lot of windage unless the wind conditions are horrendous. The 12" drill is just as easy to pull off with a TMR, and more accurate out to 600 for myself. Movers? The Horus was hell with those. Taking 900 meter shots with the M2010 using a 8-9 MIL hold at the bottom of your field of view? You're better off dialing up. I found that making those extended long range hauls is best done with elevation dialed and hold for windage, YMMV, but this is what I saw a class full of Rangers and many of the instructors saying themselves. Long story short, the more simple TMR reticle in the end feels a lot more versatile.....or perhaps modular as they like to say these days.
This Tremor kool-aid is out of hand. It's an even more cluttered H58/59. When you do have to, or for that matter decide you'd like to, dial up its elevation, those wind dot values go out the window.....and you may as well be holding off in space. Hell, you'd probably be better off that way. I would be thinking way to hard about that conundrum in the heat of the moment. Overthinking your reticle and DOPE is a good way to miss....badly. I think many of you would agree that "feel" is just as important, if not more important than, the ever infamous "Sniper math". Good DOPE is paramount, but it should be accessible, fast, and as KISS as possible.....much like a scope and reticle combination.
How about that for a first post? Sorry, been waiting a long time to put this out there.
This Tremor kool-aid is out of hand. It's an even more cluttered H58/59. When you do have to, or for that matter decide you'd like to, dial up its elevation, those wind dot values go out the window.....and you may as well be holding off in space. Hell, you'd probably be better off that way. I would be thinking way to hard about that conundrum in the heat of the moment. Overthinking your reticle and DOPE is a good way to miss....badly. I think many of you would agree that "feel" is just as important, if not more important than, the ever infamous "Sniper math". Good DOPE is paramount, but it should be accessible, fast, and as KISS as possible.....much like a scope and reticle combination.
How about that for a first post? Sorry, been waiting a long time to put this out there.
Word at Shot is, Todd and Horus have fallen out of love. I think you might see a change happening as far as the hype.
The T2 is on the outs in a big way, and independent of Horus I think TH is releasing the T3. At least one would hope its independent of Horus.
Rumor was A1st (TH) bought 20 scopes with GAP G2 Reticles, so the Horus might be in danger of waning without his effort. He was the machine behind the popularity, without him it will be tough to break future first impressions.
My question was, and will be, what happens if this 180 takes place as expected. Do the Horus fans follow Todd or stay on track....
The T2 is on the outs in a big way, and independent of Horus I think TH is releasing the T3. At least one would hope its independent of Horus.
Rumor was A1st (TH) bought 20 scopes with GAP G2 Reticles, so the Horus might be in danger of waning without his effort. He was the machine behind the popularity, without him it will be tough to break future first impressions.
My question was, and will be, what happens if this 180 takes place as expected. Do the Horus fans follow Todd or stay on track....
I was always intrigued by the Horus line of reticles. It seemed like it was all too easy. That was until I watched the youtube vid that George put out about the DMR scope and the G2 reticle. No clutter, all matching mil/mil, easy to understand and learn. Its one hell of a reticle.
i just ordered a bushnell with the tremor2 reticle in it. not because i liked the reticle. i found a price i liked and it still had a mill scale for windage and elevation so i went with it . the more i study the more i think i may like it. yes my wind age holds are all wrote down in mills so i can dial and use the mils to hold off. but the dots all represent a certain mph wind. just go to their ballistic calculator and it will tell the mph for your load for each dot did it for my 300wm 208 a max 2700 load. The last dot is 33.8 mph. and that is broken up into about 7 segments starting at the first dot of 4.4 mph. as you move down the mil scale for hold over the dots represent the same mph wind for each line as i understand it. looks good to me. easier than a standard horus i do not know. if you have your hold off in mils seems same. except with the tremor 2 you just have the 7 wind speed numbers to write down.
I am currious how many different organisations magpul contacted for their dvd project before using accuracy first. Why did they go with A1st instead of say.. gunsite or Frank? Any info Lowlight?
Don't know the actual reason but Gunsite? Why them. They don't specialize in just long range shooting. Why not Front Sight then?
They should have contacted Survivology for their long range video. Those guys are all military with really life experience.
They should have contacted Survivology for their long range video. Those guys are all military with really life experience.
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Hey fellas. Im a SOTIC guy and have used both(Mil Dot("improved" versions) and HORUS). With that said, both have a seat at the table. All guys I work with can use either and dont blow off either. I dont believe in bells and whistles which is what the HORUS reticle appears to be at first site. Let me explain...
Most of our engagements are in an urban setting (support by fire for an assault element, helo ops, etc). Typically in that realm, you are trying to "own" 600-700m and in and own it quickly. Also, in an urban setting, you should be able to run your gun side prone and positions other than prone. Ill tell you, engaging at those distances side prone is much easier with the HORUS( espcecially when your monkey brain is working ). All of your shots are with quick milling techniques that Todd(Acc 1st) and the Horus is conducive to doing these shoots fast. Think "engaging 15 targets out to 700m in about 45 sec to a minute while moving to different rooms in different postions" (Also, doing movers in this environment). Ive used a mil dot reticle in this setting and the clock in conjunction with hits on steel dont lie and the Horus stands out. Again, I like different scopes with different rifles for different mission but in our current AO, an OBR or some other AR platform with a Horus is hard to beat. Hope thats clear fellas.
Most of our engagements are in an urban setting (support by fire for an assault element, helo ops, etc). Typically in that realm, you are trying to "own" 600-700m and in and own it quickly. Also, in an urban setting, you should be able to run your gun side prone and positions other than prone. Ill tell you, engaging at those distances side prone is much easier with the HORUS( espcecially when your monkey brain is working
). All of your shots are with quick milling techniques that Todd(Acc 1st) and the Horus is conducive to doing these shoots fast. Think "engaging 15 targets out to 700m in about 45 sec to a minute while moving to different rooms in different postions" (Also, doing movers in this environment). Ive used a mil dot reticle in this setting and the clock in conjunction with hits on steel dont lie and the Horus stands out. Again, I like different scopes with different rifles for different mission but in our current AO, an OBR or some other AR platform with a Horus is hard to beat. Hope thats clear fellas.
I use the H59 in my rifles and love it. It is true that this sight is designed to be a more practical hunting/military sight. Nothing is faster calculating your first shot (getting on the target) or determining a miss and correcting for a follow up shot. If you have unlimited time on your hands, then the traditional spin the turrets is very accurate. I’m assuming we are all using high quality optics and there is no inconsistency in the adjustment (should shoot ladder and box tests to verify; even expensive optics can be off) to insure what you are dialing is what you're getting. The only con to the Horus reticle is it can be a little cluttered when compared to a mil dot, but it doesn't bother me. My friend who's in Delta loves the Tremor 2, but I love the simplicity of the H59. I understand there are holdouts to change and if you’ve been using traditional elev/wind adjustments your whole shooting life “why change?” Don’t let an ego prevent you discovering new methods. I think both methods have their place. I was late to the long distance shooting and was open to both concepts...I just find the H59 to be much faster when I need it and I can still turn the turrets if I want to. It’s the best of both worlds!
Why can't you do that with any other reticle, they have mils in them (providing it's a mil based one)
How far off is your typical follow up correction, less than mil, more than 2 mils, why can't you see the splash (providing you can) and slide the reticle (any reticle) over to superimpose that splash on target and shoot ?
Why is it always all or nothing, why do you have to "spin the dials" to correct, why can't a person with an MSR hold too ? without the clutter I might add.
I think I need to race a few people... I think the results might surprise a lot out there.
How far off is your typical follow up correction, less than mil, more than 2 mils, why can't you see the splash (providing you can) and slide the reticle (any reticle) over to superimpose that splash on target and shoot ?
Why is it always all or nothing, why do you have to "spin the dials" to correct, why can't a person with an MSR hold too ? without the clutter I might add.
I think I need to race a few people... I think the results might surprise a lot out there.
A standard mildot doesn’t have the subtensions to be as precise in calculating or adjusting. If you're engaging targets within 500 yards and not dealing with wind then ok. I would love to compete with a standard mil dot engaging targets at varying distances. Adjusting the turrets would eat up a lot of time and guessing the proper hold off when you’re between the mils or off the vertical is where it would shine. Until you use one you will not see value in it.
lol...wow. Frank or somebody please race this gentleman and show him how imprecise and slow us guys using the MSR or any other mil reticle are..
Well I taught the Horus back in the day and have used them, and have also engaged the same drills without one, so maybe, it's you who needs the education.
I am happy to set up a demonstration and race ya on that ... I never said anything about a standard Mil Dot, but I would be happy to demonstrate using that too.
I am happy to set up a demonstration and race ya on that ... I never said anything about a standard Mil Dot, but I would be happy to demonstrate using that too.
TReMoR 2 Reticle Manual/ Explanation
I'd be game for a shoot out for fun and bragging rights with somebody. Of course to be fair it would have to be on a range that both shooters are visiting so that there would be no advantage, targets of known size in inches, at unknown distance for range estimation using the shooters reticle,at an extended range I'd prefer 850+ meters and ideally in the middle of the day. Dawn and dusk the winds tend to be mild to none at some locations. I want wind in my shoot out.
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I'd be game for a shoot out for fun and bragging rights with somebody. Of course to be fair it would have to be on a range that both shooters are visiting so that there would be no advantage, targets of known size in inches, at unknown distance for range estimation using the shooters reticle,at an extended range I'd prefer 850+ meters and ideally in the middle of the day. Dawn and dusk the winds tend to be mild to none at some locations. I want wind in my shoot out.
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TReMoR 2 Reticle Manual/ Explanation
Or to make it simpler, an impartial party could spin all shooters' involved windage and elevation turrets, and the shooters have to make a follow up correction based on hold only without touching the scope at all. Only allowed touching is parallax, magnification, and reticle focus. And I don't mean spin a couple moa. I want a real doucher to touch the knobs. And I want it at a decent range distance. No 300m garbage I want distance and wind to be a factor
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Or to make it simpler, an impartial party could spin all shooters' involved windage and elevation turrets, and the shooters have to make a follow up correction based on hold only without touching the scope at all. Only allowed touching is parallax, magnification, and reticle focus. And I don't mean spin a couple moa. I want a real doucher to touch the knobs. And I want it at a decent range distance. No 300m garbage I want distance and wind to be a factor
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Anyone who has been to Rifles Only for any reason has shot Moving Chaos, this involves, a 400 yard mover, then targets at 200, 300, and 550 yards, it's done routinely with standard mil dot reticles and is done under 30 seconds for all targets, it's order is
Mover,
200
300
550
Mover (opposite direction)
it's very easy, wind is held, as RO has some pretty strong winds, you generally have to to hold between 1 to 1.5 Mils for the 550 yard target on top of the hold for the distance. Nobody dials that event, its all done with the reticle and no reticle has proven better over another. Originally it was designed as a drill to demonstrate the Horus as they were the original instructors for Horus. These are not full sized targets either, the 550 was custom made by LaRue for them and is only about 8" wide if that. Heck it might be 5" I don't recall offhand.
Mover,
200
300
550
Mover (opposite direction)
it's very easy, wind is held, as RO has some pretty strong winds, you generally have to to hold between 1 to 1.5 Mils for the 550 yard target on top of the hold for the distance. Nobody dials that event, its all done with the reticle and no reticle has proven better over another. Originally it was designed as a drill to demonstrate the Horus as they were the original instructors for Horus. These are not full sized targets either, the 550 was custom made by LaRue for them and is only about 8" wide if that. Heck it might be 5" I don't recall offhand.
Exactly...if you've spent you whole life cutting down the forest with an axe and handsaw and someone hands you a chainsaw, you think "why do I need this"? The other way works for me and if doesn't need gas, oil for the chain, and doesn't need to be tightened. Some people will be hesitant to change because the way they are doing things works fine for them. There’s a leaning curve to the TRMR2, while the H59 is quite simple. Shooters have and will perform fine without a Horus reticle. Just don’t knock a reticle you haven’t used or that doesn’t fit your shooting criteria. I got nothing but love for you guys…I know what works best for me.
A Horus reticle is just another axe.
It doesn't do anything that my Gen 2 mildot and MSR reticles don't do.
On second thought, my reticles don't line Horus' pockets with about $400.
Well, that's not entirely fair. For me, the bottom line is that the disadvantages of the Horus reticles outweigh the advantages by a wide margin.
It doesn't do anything that my Gen 2 mildot and MSR reticles don't do.
On second thought, my reticles don't line Horus' pockets with about $400.
Well, that's not entirely fair. For me, the bottom line is that the disadvantages of the Horus reticles outweigh the advantages by a wide margin.
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I've taken a long look at the TReMoR2, and although the WindDot is fast, it's not 100% really 'accurate'.
The WindDot is based on a 'standardised 308' ballistic curve, without taking into account SpinDrift or Coriolis effect, which when shooting with a right twist barrel in the northern hemisphere gets compounded. This means that you need to remember the amount to offset at each distance. Also, different bullets have different BC's which means they have a slightly different WindDot curve shape, especially at the transonic stage, therefore some WindDots line up correctly and others don't quite... especially at longer ranges.
So although it's close to accurate, it's not 100% accurate, and you need work out each WindDot curve mathematically to actually get the wind speed of each Dot for your rifle and projectile, and even then there is no guarantee that it will align exactly. It'll be damn close, but not quite perfect.
The question is, will it be more accurate than your wind estimation, and for the target size that you're shooting at, will it make a difference ?
F-Class probably won't work, but 18" steel gongs at 1000m probably will... so it's down to application.
The whole concept is awesome, but perhaps it might be more accurate if overlaid on a data/dope sheet over an H59 for quick reference. Which would make it 100% accurate, and allow you to use 'miss' impacts to correct wind estimation on your next target at a different range almost instantly. (i.e. your first round could actually give you the current wind speed).
The TReMoR2 is a massive step forward in ballistic reticle thinking, and has opened the door for others such as the Leupold CMR-W.
Use it, don't use it... it's your choice... for your application.
The WindDot is based on a 'standardised 308' ballistic curve, without taking into account SpinDrift or Coriolis effect, which when shooting with a right twist barrel in the northern hemisphere gets compounded. This means that you need to remember the amount to offset at each distance. Also, different bullets have different BC's which means they have a slightly different WindDot curve shape, especially at the transonic stage, therefore some WindDots line up correctly and others don't quite... especially at longer ranges.
So although it's close to accurate, it's not 100% accurate, and you need work out each WindDot curve mathematically to actually get the wind speed of each Dot for your rifle and projectile, and even then there is no guarantee that it will align exactly. It'll be damn close, but not quite perfect.
The question is, will it be more accurate than your wind estimation, and for the target size that you're shooting at, will it make a difference ?
F-Class probably won't work, but 18" steel gongs at 1000m probably will... so it's down to application.
The whole concept is awesome, but perhaps it might be more accurate if overlaid on a data/dope sheet over an H59 for quick reference. Which would make it 100% accurate, and allow you to use 'miss' impacts to correct wind estimation on your next target at a different range almost instantly. (i.e. your first round could actually give you the current wind speed).
The TReMoR2 is a massive step forward in ballistic reticle thinking, and has opened the door for others such as the Leupold CMR-W.
Use it, don't use it... it's your choice... for your application.
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