To the OP. For the past 4 years or so I've shot the T2 on my gas gun. I liked it alot. I'm no PRS shooter, or a sniper, just an average regular guy. I think a lot of people havn't shot this or had to set it up. Or its not their cup of tea. Or they don't need this as they are just that fast and accustomed to wind values and reading wind in general. It isn't bad at all to figure out the holds. For me, its fast and accurate enough. I don't have to calculate wind holds. Made it very quick to just interpolate the wind and then bracket. On my gun, each dot represents about 4mph, and thats easy to remember. I would say it IS pretty cluttered especially the first few mil lines, the mil hash and wind dots are pretty close to delineate, and are confusing the first time you look at them. That's the down side. But once I spent a few hours behind one, its easy for me to now bracket the wind and fire. Id also say I don't dial, and havn't needed to. My shooting is within 1K. I'm not dialing this thing where its changing any value. That's why I bought it. Now, 2 weeks ago I sent it back to Bushnell. (BTW, their customer service has been nothing short of remarkable.) And they determined they want to replace it. They don't have the Tremor anymore, so they are sending me a H59 instead, BUT its a new GenII. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. On one hand I get a nice new GenII that have some features that are pretty positive, on the other hand I lose the ability to do wind holds like I have been doing for the past 4 years, and the only reason I bought that model to begin with. If your happy with the design, and it makes you happy to look through it and gets you to the range more often, then you wont be let down. You will have to spend time with it. But that's like most everything anyhow. Know your equipment, and its limitations.
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Rifle Scopes TReMoR3 Reticle is voodoo and Todd Hodnett is a witch doctor. Discuss.
- Thread starter Kloned
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This has been an interesting thread...and Lowlight's video really made me laugh. I have a Bushnell ERS with the TMR2 reticle and it's too busy for my simple mind. But what do I know, I'm as still as green as can be at this stuff. The only reason I even have the scope is because it was one of the Natchez specials that another hide member bought up and he turned around and gave me a good deal on...If I had to pick, I wouldn't have chosen it, but I can live with it for having a solidly built scope at a reasonable price. I'm just looking at the center and lining it up with the target, will probably be awhile before I start to work on holdovers, etc. Its all I can do to just work on the fundamentals for now, like not dropping the rifle and learning to use my tactical outback skills for flipping open Butler Creek scope caps.
That's my 2 cents, and it's probably worth what you paid for it. And my tactical drink of choice is Maxwell House, good to the last shot, er, drop.
That's my 2 cents, and it's probably worth what you paid for it. And my tactical drink of choice is Maxwell House, good to the last shot, er, drop.
So how do you determine the different wind holds for different calibers, 6mm is going to be a whole lot different than a .308? And if you dial elevation then you have to do math for your wind holds? I don't think so, that's why I have and FFP scope, so I don't have to calculate stuff in my head.
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I used to have a link to it, but there is a dot calculator. You enter your ballistic info and it tells you the dot values. Then if you dial your elevation the dots scale to smaller mph wind values.
The calculator is no more. I do believe the AB Kestrel will do it, but I don't have one of those yet. But in essence, once you have determined the DOPE on the rifle, you go to the 4 Mil line, then run the numbers on the wind for the second wind dot. Now add in windage, to whatever is closest to .95 MILS. In my case its closest to 8mph. So the second wind dot is worth 8mph. Guess what the first wind dot is? yep, 4MPH. Now you know that each wind dot is 4MPH across the board from then on out. Just bracket your wind and shoot. No need to keep running numbers for windage. You'll find that its pretty close in different climatic scenarios by playing with your numbers. Its the bracketing that makes it work well on the fly without dialing. Sure if you have time to set it up, dial it, but if not then this is a good system for quick shots out to medium range. At least for the past 4 years its worked. Hopefully the Gen2 bushy theyre sending will make up for the lack of Tremor with better glass and zero stop. We'll see.
I think its explained in that link above I tried to stealth out a bit out of respect, but Ive never tried it because I'm not using that out past 6 mils in elevation, just not a need to dial on and not the purpose of my rifle its on. But I can see if you were shooting long and dialed in 5 mils to put the grid in a more centered area, then need to shoot within 5-6 mils it would be an issue. I think it just divides it by two, so the 4mph hold is only worth 2mph.
I actually did need "it" because about 10 years ago my Horus brand scope didn't track so I "had" to learn holdovers/offs if I wanted to hit something.
Now let's tell the other side of the story - people pick the wrong line with any reticle when holding over, not just Horus reticles or christmas tree type reticles.
Also I doubt that there is not one person who hasn't forgot to dial their turrets and more than once. Or who has dialed wrong, like .5 mil vs 1.5, etc.
If Horus would use a different sized line, or dot, or font, on "every other" mil line and label it with a number on every mil line, it would help a lot to prevent mistaken holds.
Agreed,
The frequency of people getting lost with a Horus clearly outweighs the incidents when compared to other reticles.
When we stopped teaching the Horus, it would be about 2 years later that T.H. really started hitting it hard. We trained the units on the same drills that were originally designed for the Horus Classes and guys had fewer issues of getting lost with the reticle of the time. We trained units using a reticle with a BZO dialed on and even with a standard mil dot reticle, you can hit 100 to 700 yards with a 308 effectively. Speed is a component of practice and training. You can easily dial on your 400-yard dope, and then transition staying close to center on the reticle. It's quick and effective without the clutter.
Really holding is a, "Given time and opportunity" thing, which technically translates to inside the shooter's personal danger space. For most in the military, it is 600 yards and in, basically the danger close ranges for support. The Horus / T.H. line of thinking is, it solves every problem, which is really not correct. He describes it to many as a super tool, which is exaggerating the effectiveness. Most of them ignore the multiple shots they throw at the target. Guys will say how effective it was holding, and when you ask how many shots they sent at the target, the number is always much higher than practical. It helped the enemy didn't run from our effective fire but stood there looking to get shot. So the myth grows with each retelling of the tales.
It's easily recreated with less, it's easy to teach, and used in the right context can be every bit as good as using a Horus. We did it every class after Jacob dropped the Horus contract.
The frequency of people getting lost with a Horus clearly outweighs the incidents when compared to other reticles.
When we stopped teaching the Horus, it would be about 2 years later that T.H. really started hitting it hard. We trained the units on the same drills that were originally designed for the Horus Classes and guys had fewer issues of getting lost with the reticle of the time. We trained units using a reticle with a BZO dialed on and even with a standard mil dot reticle, you can hit 100 to 700 yards with a 308 effectively. Speed is a component of practice and training. You can easily dial on your 400-yard dope, and then transition staying close to center on the reticle. It's quick and effective without the clutter.
Really holding is a, "Given time and opportunity" thing, which technically translates to inside the shooter's personal danger space. For most in the military, it is 600 yards and in, basically the danger close ranges for support. The Horus / T.H. line of thinking is, it solves every problem, which is really not correct. He describes it to many as a super tool, which is exaggerating the effectiveness. Most of them ignore the multiple shots they throw at the target. Guys will say how effective it was holding, and when you ask how many shots they sent at the target, the number is always much higher than practical. It helped the enemy didn't run from our effective fire but stood there looking to get shot. So the myth grows with each retelling of the tales.
It's easily recreated with less, it's easy to teach, and used in the right context can be every bit as good as using a Horus. We did it every class after Jacob dropped the Horus contract.
Getting lost, never being able to spot my own trace, and having trouble spotting my splash when the ground was wet, were the reasons I moved away from the TREMOR2. The only reason I used it in the first place was I got a great deal on some scopes. I think my perfect reticle would be the G2B from Steiner with an open center like the TMR from leupold. The TREMOR 2 also had a bunch of ridiculous shit in it for bracketing plates. It made it really easy to get lost on the way down in the center of the reticle also. I found myself dialing way up and holding under with it to try to escape from the grid.
Here's another "non Christmas-tree" type reticle: The Schmidt & Bender P4L
http://www.eurooptic.com/PDF/Schmidt-Bender-PMII-Reticle-P4L-Fine-5-25x56.pdf
I like it because it translates well between moa/inches and mil
If you're brain housing group is more attuned to mil, I really like the new Mil-C reticle put out by nightforce.
http://www.eurooptic.com/PDF/Schmidt-Bender-PMII-Reticle-P4L-Fine-5-25x56.pdf
I like it because it translates well between moa/inches and mil
If you're brain housing group is more attuned to mil, I really like the new Mil-C reticle put out by nightforce.
I wasn’t aware 600 yards was danger close. Maybe back in the day..... funny thing happened the other day. I Was talking to a USMC Scout Sniper who says his guys actually loved the Horus. Granted he was deploying and just sat through a class of mine so not a prs guy. Anyways I digress, he was complaining about so many ex-snipers forgetting what the Marines are trained as. SCOUT snipers.... there is way less sniping and way more scouting going on than many people realize. On another note I’d love to get the numbers of snipers that have engaged on 400+ range targets to justify the new 300 they are all demanding.
Look the Horus is a tool, it’s a new thing that lots of older guys hate but these are the same older guys that didn’t train for ELR no matter what lies they tell you. 15 years ago guys hated ISR over their heads, now they don’t leave the FOB without it. Also these are the same guys that loved the BDC part of their scopes.
Oh and the Horus is being used just fine in vegetation. And any Christmas tree reticle is going to ensure the follow up shot is a shack. Till we be like frank and nail wind calls on almost every first shot( something the deploying guys are spending more time on) having that reticle makes for quick follow ups and no need to lose the target when we look at turrets to dial the dope. Try tracking some dude through vegetation taking your eyes off to dial then have your spotter have to try And talk you back on. It’s a b@#$* I tell ya.
Of course you do all that only to see a puff of smoke dirt and parts as they JDAM the dude.....
Look the Horus is a tool, it’s a new thing that lots of older guys hate but these are the same older guys that didn’t train for ELR no matter what lies they tell you. 15 years ago guys hated ISR over their heads, now they don’t leave the FOB without it. Also these are the same guys that loved the BDC part of their scopes.
Oh and the Horus is being used just fine in vegetation. And any Christmas tree reticle is going to ensure the follow up shot is a shack. Till we be like frank and nail wind calls on almost every first shot( something the deploying guys are spending more time on) having that reticle makes for quick follow ups and no need to lose the target when we look at turrets to dial the dope. Try tracking some dude through vegetation taking your eyes off to dial then have your spotter have to try And talk you back on. It’s a b@#$* I tell ya.
Of course you do all that only to see a puff of smoke dirt and parts as they JDAM the dude.....
Dang it, I just ordered a T3 S&B. Oh well, I'll learn it and see if I can get something out of it. If not, sell it and move on.
You will love it. Simple to use and watch the wind dot video. You’ll find that everyone is using Christmas tree reticles and that’s all Horus is. You zoom in and it’s no busier than anything else. The wind dots are handy and it’s easy to range with it.
Without getting into a subjective debate on how useful or not the reticle is............how is this:
Just as busy as:
Dang it, I just ordered a T3 S&B. Oh well, I'll learn it and see if I can get something out of it. If not, sell it and move on.
You may get along great with it.
I find the reticle useful on generous sized targets. I dont use hold over or wind dots past 3 mils (600 yards with my 6 creed) and like i said, that's on generous sized targets. So with that said, I hardly use the reticle at all as it is intended to be used. I find myself dialing elevation and holding wind and use reticle to spot misses or getting a better idea what my wind hold should be.
You may get along great with it.
I find the reticle useful on generous sized targets. I dont use hold over or wind dots past 3 mils (600 yards with my 6 creed) and like i said, that's on generous sized targets. So with that said, I hardly use the reticle at all as it is intended to be used. I find myself dialing elevation and holding wind and use reticle to spot misses or getting a better idea what my wind hold should be.
Because I shoot it you complain about it. The folk I work with shoot it and love it... while you complain about it. Not a fan boi
You’ll get faster follow ups without taking your eyes of the target if you hold vs dial. I’d like to add up all the seconds people take checking and rechecking dial, then re aquiring target. Then add that time to your score and see what you would have gotten if you didn’t need to dial.
I also use TMK and flat lines for 1000+ dial zero for my flatlines and hold my dope. Back to zero for my 175s hold away. Till I can count clicks faster than I can move my eye to the mil number and hold I’ll take the Horus style. You snipers with more steel kills than me can whine away how busy it is. I just put more weight on keeping PID of my target probably a work habit seeing steel doesn’t shoot back and I can sit there checking and rechecking my elevation and the steel won’t engage me or move.
Sorry I don’t have a problem with my h59, tmr3, or another brands Christmas tree. Lastly are you kidding me? You really think a 12inch steel at 1000 yards is hard to see with a Horus....... sorry that is just funny. To each their own
Didin't complain about it. I asked a question on how you claimed it was "just as busy as any other."
Its fairly objective, there's much more in the reticle than most.
I’ll say this. I’ve liked and used many reticles over the years, but only one has ever made me sell everything to replace them with one reticle and that’s the Tremor 3. This reticle is as close to perfect as it gets. .2 mil hash marks all over for accurate holds, and two different ways to hold wind. What’s not to love?
I do not shoot very far away nearly as much as many of you do most likely, but as the distances increase I find holding less practical than dialing. That is one of the things I dislike about Horus reticles: I do not need a holdover grid that is 40mrad tall. I would much rather have just a few mrad that I need to get out to 7-800 yards and compensate for wind out that far. Beyond that, I am going to dial or use a combiantion of turret dialing and reticle holdover if necessary.
Besides, most of that grid is not visible until you go to progressively lower magnification which is counterintuitive if you are trying to make a long shot.
Lastly, in a FFP scope, when at low magnification, I want the reticle to look greatly simplified for a reasonably clean aiming point and I do not get that with the Horus.
Does Horus work? certainly. It is a mrad-grid and we can all make it work. However, it is not for everyone.
I am currently testing a Mark 5 with H59 and it works just fine, but it is not my cup of tea.
ILya
Besides, most of that grid is not visible until you go to progressively lower magnification which is counterintuitive if you are trying to make a long shot.
Lastly, in a FFP scope, when at low magnification, I want the reticle to look greatly simplified for a reasonably clean aiming point and I do not get that with the Horus.
Does Horus work? certainly. It is a mrad-grid and we can all make it work. However, it is not for everyone.
I am currently testing a Mark 5 with H59 and it works just fine, but it is not my cup of tea.
ILya
I finally got a day here in Texas Panhandle that I had time to shoot and the wind wasnt blowing 20+
Wind was 3 o clock 4-6mph Targets 6'' square at 500 and a 12'' diamond at 704 yards.
I ran these targets shooting one shot at 500, one at 704, one back at 500 and one back at 704 holding appropriate elevation and my first wind dot.
I ran this drill 3 times clean. Each time I go out with the TReMoR 3 I am getting more comfortable and confident with the reticle/system.
I'm no where near ready to say I'm going to change reticles in my hunting scope's to the TReMoR but im really starting to like it shooting steel.
Wind was 3 o clock 4-6mph Targets 6'' square at 500 and a 12'' diamond at 704 yards.
I ran these targets shooting one shot at 500, one at 704, one back at 500 and one back at 704 holding appropriate elevation and my first wind dot.
I ran this drill 3 times clean. Each time I go out with the TReMoR 3 I am getting more comfortable and confident with the reticle/system.
I'm no where near ready to say I'm going to change reticles in my hunting scope's to the TReMoR but im really starting to like it shooting steel.
I wish the t3 had smaller dots.
I like the reticle with the idea that it's a mass issue high power optic for a semi auto rifle. Fact of the matter is, not every sniper is a gun guy or thoroughly trained. Even in the most elite organizations, some just go to a couple of courses and shoot semi regularly at military ranges with no further self development. At the lowest levels, it's just a dude that was handed a sniper rifle and told he was a sniper.
With that in mind, the t3 wind dots really do simplify a lot. If anything, I think there should be elevation holds out to 600m too. I also wish we had locking parallax knobs so we can just set it to a happy spot pre mission and not worry about it getting bumped.
"Hey, zero this thing at 100m. Here are some data cards that will be accurate for these DA's. This is how to hold, this is how to lead movers, copy and paste your misses. Each wind dot is 4 MPH." Sniper indoctrination complete for when a battalion receives mass casualty and needs replacement snipers.
Since I mentioned movers, I've always thought leading full value FAST (10+ MPH) movers was more akin to skeet than shooting popsicle sillhouettes walking back and forth with your buddy behind the berm.
I like the reticle with the idea that it's a mass issue high power optic for a semi auto rifle. Fact of the matter is, not every sniper is a gun guy or thoroughly trained. Even in the most elite organizations, some just go to a couple of courses and shoot semi regularly at military ranges with no further self development. At the lowest levels, it's just a dude that was handed a sniper rifle and told he was a sniper.
With that in mind, the t3 wind dots really do simplify a lot. If anything, I think there should be elevation holds out to 600m too. I also wish we had locking parallax knobs so we can just set it to a happy spot pre mission and not worry about it getting bumped.
"Hey, zero this thing at 100m. Here are some data cards that will be accurate for these DA's. This is how to hold, this is how to lead movers, copy and paste your misses. Each wind dot is 4 MPH." Sniper indoctrination complete for when a battalion receives mass casualty and needs replacement snipers.
Since I mentioned movers, I've always thought leading full value FAST (10+ MPH) movers was more akin to skeet than shooting popsicle sillhouettes walking back and forth with your buddy behind the berm.
Someone is arguing with me on another forum about Horus reticles and TH, so I had to dig this thread up for some background. I think I'll just sand the guy to Frank with questions. I am just not up to speed on the details.
With SHOT starting tomorrow, I'll try to catch up with Frank and get some more background on that.
ILya
With SHOT starting tomorrow, I'll try to catch up with Frank and get some more background on that.
ILya
OpticsTalk.
To be honest, it is not an argument I am hugey interested in, but it has some entertainment value.
Apparently, as a shooter and instructor TH has no peer. I am guessing that TH himself is the source of that pearl of wisdom.
Ilya
To be honest, it is not an argument I am hugey interested in, but it has some entertainment value.
Apparently, as a shooter and instructor TH has no peer. I am guessing that TH himself is the source of that pearl of wisdom.
Ilya
I'm excited to dip my toe in the long range shooting world. NF 7-35 tremor 3 will be here Wednesday. I figured if I was jumping in, I'd go all the way.
The Tremor3 I think has useful application for PRS matches where you need to engage targets on the clock, since it's less data to remember for holdovers (wind speed instead of different wind holds for every target) and it gives you more time to build a stable position and take your shot (holding instead of dialing).
That said, it definitely takes time to get used to so that you can avoid being lost in the tree. I've run into issues in the past where I held the wrong wind value for the target I was shooting because I had a dozen wind holds written on my data card (a high and low value for each target, some stages have 6 targets). This is also arguably an issue with training, but IMO it's easier to remember 2 wind speeds that apply to every target than it is to look up the high and low wind holds before shooting each target.
In terms of benchrest or F-class shooting the reticle is way too busy. If you have plenty of time to dial your elevation the reticle is too busy (wind dots start to obstruct your vision). It's simply meant for engaging multiple targets at different distances with a time limit that makes dialing elevation a potential concern, or for engaging mover targets once you have calibrated the mover markings on the main horizontal line. Any use outside of that it will be a compromise over other tree reticles that aren't as busy.
That said, it definitely takes time to get used to so that you can avoid being lost in the tree. I've run into issues in the past where I held the wrong wind value for the target I was shooting because I had a dozen wind holds written on my data card (a high and low value for each target, some stages have 6 targets). This is also arguably an issue with training, but IMO it's easier to remember 2 wind speeds that apply to every target than it is to look up the high and low wind holds before shooting each target.
In terms of benchrest or F-class shooting the reticle is way too busy. If you have plenty of time to dial your elevation the reticle is too busy (wind dots start to obstruct your vision). It's simply meant for engaging multiple targets at different distances with a time limit that makes dialing elevation a potential concern, or for engaging mover targets once you have calibrated the mover markings on the main horizontal line. Any use outside of that it will be a compromise over other tree reticles that aren't as busy.
The reticle shouldnt be that controversial, its a christmas tree with time of flight dots to aid a shooter by skipping quick wind formula math. I think a lot of it is the personalities involved in the same way Larue product can be controversial because of mark.
Oh know believe what he says and pay the extra for his reticle you'll make 1st round hits with it LMFAO
All of this discussion and no mention of what problem your choice is to serve. For the casual shooter, forget it. You will be more confused by choices than simpler reticules. If not near 1000 yards and beyond, forget it,My shooting starts at about 1k and its value for quick followups is unmatched by other solutions. For hunting where the game will not continue to stand there after a miss (long shots) you have nothing to do but pick a hold off and use it for your new reticule. I use the ATACR 5 - 25 and wish I could but another, the 7 to 35 to complement it. You should have a good reason th buy a Horus solution because of the additional 400 they actual cost which is sent to Horus and a lot more than that to be of quality sufficient to support the much higher cost. I would guess most could NOT justify the buy in AND will not shoot enough together familiar with it to the point of becoming a plus. As an aside I cannot imagine NOT using the system for military use where a 2nd round hit is much more likely to happen.
In a predator or hot hunting situation, I don't know if I wished all my rifle scope had the TReMoR3 reticle but I find myself grabbing the rifles to that have scopes with the TReMoR3 reticle. I really like the wind dots. As long as I have a pretty good idea what the wind is, a quick range with the Leica's, look at range card, and hold the appropriate wind dot. If I got my wind right, the system does work.
Serious question:
Other than personal preference, can you explain what the difference you see between using a wind dot vs a mil mark?
The biggest difference when using the two, to me, is that the only pieces of information I need to know are the wind speed and the wind value for each dot.
The wind value for each dot is a one-time calibration you do when you first develop a load for your rifle. Use a ballistic calculator for it once then forget about it.
Wind speed is easier to remember than a different mil value of wind hold for each different distance. If your dots correspond to 5 mph per dot and you have a 10 mph wind, then you know that every target you hold over for will use the second dot. You don't have to remember or write down each individual wind hold value. If the wind is gusting between 10-15 mph, then you know you can bracket the target between the 2nd and 3rd wind dots instead of having a high mil value and a low mil value written on your Python/Sidewinder/other data card.
It feels more intuitive because I have one piece of information that I need to know (wind speed) and I can come up with the wind hold for any distance with known elevation holds without leaving my scope. It's easy for me to remember one list of numbers (elevation holds), but harder for me to remember 2 lists of numbers (elevation and wind holds) without constantly referencing my data card in the middle of a stage.
I just picked up a sb with t3.
After playing for a while with it I think it excels when you aren’t working with a team.
If you don’t have a spotter and are in a rapid/possible multi engagement environment I can see the benefits.
Looking for .1 mil accuracy...not so much but at mid range magnification shooting both eyes open, if you know your dope it’s more that adequate.
Kind of a extended range DM, or barricaded/fortified position. Snake in the woods ops don’t really benefit as much if at all.
After playing for a while with it I think it excels when you aren’t working with a team.
If you don’t have a spotter and are in a rapid/possible multi engagement environment I can see the benefits.
Looking for .1 mil accuracy...not so much but at mid range magnification shooting both eyes open, if you know your dope it’s more that adequate.
Kind of a extended range DM, or barricaded/fortified position. Snake in the woods ops don’t really benefit as much if at all.
if you dial it is with out a doubt, but like any grid once you are floating between in "no mans land"/between V and H stadia accuracy or POA can be reduced.
i dont see it as a issue especially when thinking why the ret was produced in the first place
but if your using it for F-class (yes that is a totally diff discipline) and trying to hold off not dial thats a little different.
yet the more i use it the more i like it
good advice, i started doing that a little while ago.
thinking was it would train my eyes stop looking for the exact center stadia.
i was always a dial guy
maybe ill put a print out of the stadia lines and marks so i can start chopping them in half and so forth as well
thinking was it would train my eyes stop looking for the exact center stadia.
i was always a dial guy
maybe ill put a print out of the stadia lines and marks so i can start chopping them in half and so forth as well
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