Tripod comparison data request

[wigwamitus]

Tripod comparison data Request:

A number of members are shooting off tripods. And by this I mean camera tripods or above. I am not attempting to include 1, 2 or 3 legged shooting sticks in this request for data.

So, here is the comparitive data I have now. When I find new data, or others provide new data, I will update the matrix.

 

[wigwamitus]

Here is .22lr at 25yds zeroing off manfrotto 055 with 322rc2 head.

==

Here is .50BMG at 100yds zeroing off spec-rest

 

[MPHReallyRightStuff]

I love all the write-ups on tripods lately!
May I ask what tripod of ours your are using?
There are only 2 models that have a recommended support capacity of 25 lbs, and I won't recommend then to shooters. Those are the TQC & TFC 14 models. All the other ones are rated at 40-50-100 lbs but we have put 350 pounds on a few of them just to play.

Our ratings are for worst case, if the tripod falls on to the joint between a aluminum clevis and the aluminum apex with all the weight directly over top of it, it could possibly break and easily be repaired. That is the only point we see it failing. As far as just weight on top, I am 220 and have hung from our 2 series tripod and above.

I like tho throw out this picture of the owner and son testing 3 and 4 series tripods.

 

[ballistic1]

Here is my Cruxford minus the Spotter attachment

 

[beretta_man11]

I can't tell you that this tripod is better than any of the others in the same price range, but I've been using it for the past couple months with good results.
32mm carbon fiber legs
3.75lbs
tripod rating 55lbs
ball head rating 75lbs

https://www.amazon.com/Tripod-DEMON...pID=31wm6CamKAL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 

[canezach]

I see a lot of Feisol 3342 and 3372 tripods around here. I use one myself with a RRS leveling base and I couldn't be happier.

 

[Diver160651]

Tripod comparison data Request:

I think for this to be effective, the wobble vrs self-spotting, HAS TO BE accounted for. The performance is not directly tied to the way the MFGs list max weight.

In the precision rifle game, speed and self-spotting are HUGE. 1 No visual, usually equals 2 missed shots. Also, these need to be compared in relatively high winds, not for tipping over, but the barrels and rifles start to bounce. This was just a topic of discussion in another thread. Ball heads and center columns are very, very bouncy in wind or with shooter load, with no load you can't self-spot. So the traditional way of dealing with this is slings, this helps but is very slow.

Here are images from both me Prone vrs RRS Tripod, Vrs HOG on RRS sticks and below great tripod groups from @Mike402 comparing Prone vrs RRS tripod.

@Mike402's nice tripod shooting below

You can see these in this thread https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rrs-leveling-heads-on-rrs-tvc-33-feisol-3372.6570549/

 

[Darkside-Six]

The PIG0311 Tripd from Hog Saddle is a newer one that is becoming popular. I picked up one in the fall when they first came out and it’s a very good tripod for the money. There are a lot of members here that have been getting them.

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok thanks for the feedback guys! I will rework the comparison matrix. It looks like I will need to add "model numbers" in the column headers, not just manufacturers. Will do that.
Also, I think I am surmising that the key trade-offs are:
Price
Weight
Stability

Weight is a double edged sword. More weight makes a tougher carry, like the Spec-Rest says it is "man-portable" .. but for this man ... I'll be porting it too and from the vehicle, not up and down the banks of the creeks and hills around here! But more weight does decrease felt recoil (provided the tripod legs are deployed optimally, which takes some experience), hence the ability to shoot the .50BMG off the spec-rest with less felt recoil than prone.

Stability is a category that has a number of aspects, but I see grouping those aspects up under "Stability" might make sense, so I will try that.

And note, these offerings are FAR from similar on price ... apples and oranges and carrots and grapefruit ...

==
I wonder if I am 100% understand "self-spotting" ... I assume that means the shooter sees the hit or the miss. My general goal is to be able to do that with the scope on the rifle, though, that is not always possible. So if I understand the meaning of "self-spotting" correctly, that means we are seeing that some tripods enhance "self-spotting" more than others. For me, using either the manfrotto or the spec-rest. I can see the results on critters off the manfrotto, I can see the results on steel. I cannot always see the results on paper, depends on the paper. If I use white paper with small colors dots for aiming points, I can see the results on paper, for sure, out to 500yds. Though with the .50BMG off the spec-rest, I cannot keep the gun on the target during the recoil cycle. With .22lr(16), 5.56(18), 6.5G(18) and .300WM(24) off manfrotto I can keep the gun on target.
==
Thanks again for the input and a new data matrix will be up soon.

==
My primary shooting buddy is in the market for a tripod ... he is a camera shooter for his day job and has 7 manfrottos for that sort of shooting. He has used my Manfrottos for rifle shooting and the spec-rest once. But is open to any and all, hence I am trying to develop this data for him, but also for my next tripod purchase. I've heard good things about both Crux and RRS.

 

[MPHReallyRightStuff]

Keep it up @wigwamitus, I will look forward to reading your results and end opinions. Only way we can improve our gear is to listen to users. If you want any understanding of our gear feel free to give a hollar. Michael 805-548-1534

 

[D_TROS]

Interested to see how the feisol compares.

thanks for the write up!

DT

 

[noisewaterphd]

Leofoto LN-364c with an RRS TA-3 leveling base is a wonderful combo.

 

[Diver160651]

Ok thanks for the feedback guys! I will rework the comparison matrix. It looks like I will need to add "model numbers" in the column headers, not just manufacturers. Will do that.
Also, I think I am surmising that the key trade-offs are:
Price
Weight
Stability

Weight is a double edged sword. More weight makes a tougher carry, like the Spec-Rest says it is "man-portable" .. but for this man ... I'll be porting it too and from the vehicle, not up and down the banks of the creeks and hills around here! But more weight does decrease felt recoil (provided the tripod legs are deployed optimally, which takes some experience), hence the ability to shoot the .50BMG off the spec-rest with less felt recoil than prone.

Stability is a category that has a number of aspects, but I see grouping those aspects up under "Stability" might make sense, so I will try that.

And note, these offerings are FAR from similar on price ... apples and oranges and carrots and grapefruit ...

==
I wonder if I am 100% understand "self-spotting" ... I assume that means the shooter sees the hit or the miss. My general goal is to be able to do that with the scope on the rifle, though, that is not always possible. So if I understand the meaning of "self-spotting" correctly, that means we are seeing that some tripods enhance "self-spotting" more than others. For me, using either the manfrotto or the spec-rest. I can see the results on critters off the manfrotto, I can see the results on steel. I cannot always see the results on paper, depends on the paper. If I use white paper with small colors dots for aiming points, I can see the results on paper, for sure, out to 500yds. Though with the .50BMG off the spec-rest, I cannot keep the gun on the target during the recoil cycle. With .22lr(16), 5.56(18), 6.5G(18) and .300WM(24) off manfrotto I can keep the gun on target.
==
Thanks again for the input and a new data matrix will be up soon.

==
My primary shooting buddy is in the market for a tripod ... he is a camera shooter for his day job and has 7 manfrottos for that sort of shooting. He has used my Manfrottos for rifle shooting and the spec-rest once. But is open to any and all, hence I am trying to develop this data for him, but also for my next tripod purchase. I've heard good things about both Crux and RRS.

I’ll try to clarify the self spotting comment via Siri. Most of my posts are done with her as my copilot.

I have shot tripods for a number of years and owned a lot of styles of legs, heads and contraptions. I also had a media company which provided access to some incredibly high $ offerings, some I tried shooting off of and yes, done a lot of the cheap stuff.

What I’ve experienced seems to be universal. The more height or features you add above the apex the harder it is to control the gun from vibrating in the wind or with the shooter loading into it. This is also true for the large broadcast cameras we ran.

Many tripod’s will look great on target thru the scope if you’re not loading the gun and don’t care about recoil management for self-spotting or a quick follow-up shot for locating your next target quickly.

Self-spotting requires good recoil management to see the moment of impact to allow the shooter to make quick corrections. To do this, the shooter needs to load the tripod slightly, as you do, the shooter input, just like wind starts to exploit any item that allows a bit of flex. Center columns, cantilevered mounts and ball heads all allow more flex in the above conditions.

The tripod explosion and buzz that RRS created in the match circuit, certainty breathed a ton of new interest and life beyond military minute of man use, for tripods shooting. I think dividing the tripod shooting into two classes makes the most sense.

The precision and range needed for shooting minute of man, is not necessarily going to work well for something like a PRS event, where distance can be far, time short and targets small.

So I’d certainly pay more attention to a review that classes the uses, showed the groups off the tripods WITHOUT Free-recoiling and commented on being able to see the moment of impact at shorter ranges (not reacquiring a 500m target) all under a similar time limit.

Currently the RRS and leveling base, maybe soon to be the Anvil, are the gold standard for precision rifle use.

Without taking the actual use requirements that has been a game changer for precision rifle shooters into account and comparing those features, it is not really apples to apples regardless of pricing. I like your idea but it is a big job.

Maybe you’ll find the $200 tripod that holds steady (no wobble) a 16lbs extended lever in the form of a match gun, shoots about 1/2 @ 100, stable enough to self-spot moment of impact at 200m and out, and is fast and light. If the boxes are all checked... a lot of us will be listening.

 

[wigwamitus]

Aye - well that certainly sets a high standard for the goal of a great review !!!

My goal is/was something less, to (start) gathering data on the apples and oranges and carrots and grapefruit and try to make some sense out of it ...

My use case might not be "precision" ... my targets are 12x24 inch silhouettes (ISPC-D) ... and ... wind allowing 700yds is doable ... 500yds is pretty easy ... so call it 2 MOA Plus for the 500yd case, though 700yds is under that.

I find the limiting factor for shooting tripods to be the wind moving ME around. A 10-15 mile per hour plus wind, and a low wind wobble on the target of about the target width at 600yds is now another 12 inches on both sides ... and shooting into the center of the wobble becomes the challenge ... much above 600yds in 10-15 MPH wind, the hit ratio for me drops to 50% ... of course it is less if I sit instead of stand. So I am talking about standing.
So again, I find it is ME moving that causes the issue more than the rifle moving without me touching it ... I'm sure it is, but I have more "sail" area .

As to recoil management, I shoot 6.5G(18) and .300WM(24) mostly off my tripods, which are mostly M190 or M055 manfrottos with 322RC2 ... and I never loose sight of the targets through the recoil cycle. I really don't notice recoil with those guns on those tripods. And interestingly the 6.5G(18) stoner, has more felt recoil than the .300WM(24) bolt gun as the field weight of those guns for day shooting is around 13 pounds for the 6.5G and 20 pounds for the .300WM.

Now the .50BMG(32) is another story ... and off the Spec-Rest, I have not yet (after two sessions of 13 and 17 rds respectively) been able to stay on target, or even quickly get back on target. Improvements can be made, but that is a whole 'nother carrot ...

I'm sure you have 1000 times more experience than I do off tripods, I've only been shooting them for two years ... and mostly Manfrottos and mostly 6.5G and .300WM ... but I've evolved to about 70% shooting off tripods and 30% standing unsupported ... with about 6% prone squeezed in for zeroing. Though I often zero off the tripods more often than not. So I am essentially "all in" for tripods, except for the carbines and .22lr I use for hunting. But for guns with barrels 18 inches plus it is tripods, tripods, tripods. And the reason is really the terrain around here ... too hilly and bumpy to shoot much from prone. Since I work during the day, I shoot mostly at night ... but I go out 2-3 times per night ... averaging about 15 hours per week.

Right now, I am gathering data and I will continue to gather data and expand the matrix. Someone will probably do your "precision shooter tripod review" ... but I cannot say I will do it first ... but thanks for the input !!!

Heading out now ...

 

[Diver160651]

Ya, 50bmg is not something I will even spot for anymore. I like my sinus cavity...

Just for clarity I know one can manage the recoil with any tripod, but generally then we are intruding the wobble that makes it tough. With lots of hours it gets better but man timing the wobble is perishable. If you get a chance try the leveling head setup on someones sticks with your 6.5. Run one leg more rear word to help with the recoil and only drive the gun slightly. You'll get big smiles, especially with the time your putting in.

 

[MarinePMI]

This^^^^

There's nothing sweeter than nailing three prairie dogs off a hole (in quick succession) from a standing position off a tripod. But as Diver said, recoil management is key to getting back on target. For that, a good tripod (I use a Feisol 3342) and leveling base (I use an RRS leveling base) are hard to beat for stability and recoil management. Caliber/case should also be part of the assessment as well (IMHO). (I was using a .223 in the situation described above, and doubt a 6.5 CM would have allowed me to nail all three in such quick succession.)

 

[wigwamitus]

New version of comparison matrix

 

[wigwamitus]

Even though I have been shooting with tripods for 26 months, I have not talked to other shooters who have used them much. So, I have been re-reading the above and trying to distill the meanings of the words. Especially "Stability" and "Recoil Management" and "loading".

I looked at pics on HOG saddle web site when I first got my Manfrotto tripods and focused on the positions I saw. There was a wide range. When panning with the joy stick on the 322rc2 head, obviously one puts ones support hand on the joy stick. But I had already developed a style from using shooting sticks of pushing down on the gun with my support hand, while pulling in to my shoulder with the firing hand. So I mostly use that method now, at least when standing. There were two motivations, to stabilize me, and to stabilize the gun/tripod. Or re-stated, to stabilize the "firing system" which includes all elements. I think this works to improve recoil management as with both of the guns that I fire off tripods the most for longer distances, the 6.5G(18) and the .300WM(24) I have no issue remaining on target. The reticle might shift a foot off the target at 500yds, but at night I see the flash of the round strike the steel ... in the day .. sometimes I see the "spotch" of the round hitting the target, before the target moves or I hear sound (sound is way later). So pushing down and pulling in and standing with knees slightly bent, etc. helps with recoil management, a.k.a. seeing hits/misses, a.k.a. staying on target, a.k.a. fast follow up.
But as to "stability" or "minimizing wobble" ... maybe yes and no. First, I think pushing down and pulling in is "loading" the tripod. And I've never tried "not loading". Sometimes I shoot with my hand on the joystick, if the target is moving, and that is "loading less" ... but those are usually closer in shots, under 350yds ... mostly under 200yds.
But as I said, when the wind is around 10-15 MPH or higher, the wind moves "me" and the "wobble" is greatly enhanced and since I am "loading" the tripod, the movement of me is translated directly to the gun and that is a severe limiting factor reducing hit / rds firing ratio to 50% at much over 600yrds ... Most of the wobble is left to right and with an estimated 36 inches of wobble range trying to hit a 12 inch target requires timing to wobble. And unlike closer in where moving the gun onto the target works fine, at greater distances, it seems like a moving gun results in sort of a "curve ball" bullet, probably not, but when the gun is moving at 500yds from left to right, it doesn't seem like the bullet goes where the reticle is pointing at the moment of the primer strike. There might be a little lead to it. So, I think in higher wind conditions, either I switch to sitting position or I move closer, or I accept the hit/miss ratio or I do not shoot. I do not currently have a way to defeat wind induced wobble for standing position. Maybe a combination of "no load" and magic tripod can do it. But even the Spec Rest, the heaviest (and most stable?) tripod in the bunch, is heavily influenced by my movement. So I'm not sure how a tripod design can mitigate this wind induced shooter transfer wobble. But I am eager to be educated !!!

 

[wigwamitus]

Manfrotto Review
I have M190 and M055 both aluminum, 3 sections. For me there is no functional difference, I can run the .300WM(24) off either which is the heaviest gun I run off the Manfrottos. Empty (Barrel, action, chassis) is 15 pounds. Field weight is 20-23 pounds depending on day/night setups.
I also often use the 6.5G(18) of the Manfrottos.

6.5G(18) on the left on M190 and .300WM(24) on the right on M055.

THe 6.5G(18) is on 322rc2 head, the .300WM(24) is on RSTA (APO) Head. I've relegated the RTSA to the parts box because the lock/unlock mechanism no longer works. I got a second 322rc2 head.

When standing I push down on the top of the gun with my support hand and pull in to my shoulder with the pistol grip. With about 0-8 MPH wind, standing shooting 12x24 silhouoettes (ISPC-D) at 500yds or under has gotten boring ... day or night .. clang, clang, clang. I get 100% on most 5-10rd strings. Average is around 95% over past 9 months.
Now from 10-15 MPH and 600yds plus it gets harder for me ... more wobble with more wind ... moving me around ... seeing 12 inches of wobble on both sides of the steel and must time the shot. Averaging around 50% hit rate above 600yds from 10-15 MPH.

The farthest I've tried with these set ups is 700yds, I've only shot 3 rds and got 2 hits, that was 9 MPH, but was very consistent.

The only issue I've had with the Manfrottos is the second 322rc-2 head does not retain tension. I tighten the "friction" knob as much as I can and it gets better, but then soon it slips and gets loose. Nothing has fallen over, but the other head works way better, very tight. Maybe I got a lemon.

The manfrottos are portable. I got a carry bag from APO that is nice and it can tie in to MOLLE. I've done a recent practice creek walk where I walk in my woods and creeks up and down the hills and creek banks ... and then setup ... deploy the tripod and scan about, then pack up and move again. Not a problem to carry, setup, take down in rough terrain.

I've used these for zeroing and while not as tight as prone, very usable. It is tough to find 100yd flat spots with clear line of fire and safe backstop during some periods during the year.

I use McRee pic rail interfaces on all three of my rifles I shoot off these tripods. I also have 2 PIG saddles I use for zeroing my three carbines and .22LR.
==

Spec-Rest Review
==
I got the Spec Rest for the .50BMG(32). At 32 pounds, this tripod is heavy. It has a "gross" elevation adjustment knob which you loosen to adjust elevation and tighten when done. There is also a "fine" elevation adjustment dial.
For deflection, there is a lock/unlock lever. Functionally this is similar to the M3 tripods we used with the M2s in the Army I was in.
The Spec-Rest tripod however is designed for use standing only. There is a $300 add on, a quad-pod, that you can use for sitting.

I started off like this, with the magnetospeed.

The first two shots, the gun came "out of battery" ... and had I not been pushing down, would've jumped itself on to the ground. After some noodling, I decided to remove the bipod and slide the yoke into the chassis slot for the bipod. This worked well, significantly less felt recoil. Now the tripod was transmitting much of the recoil to the ground. And no "out of battery".

Next problem was the groups were too wide. I decided on a new strategy for aiming.
I would first aim with the tripod 100% unloaded. Lock in the elevation and deflection without me touching any part of the gun or tripod other than the levers. This process would lock in a neutral position for the gun/tripod part of the firing system.
THEN, I would load the gun/tripod. Loading is necessary to help take the recoil, because the yoke system does not provide a hard mount. Loading with the shooter shifts the system out of the neutral position established by locking in the gun/tripod. So by loading, I was muscling out of NP but the goal then was to muscle back to the same NP that was locked in. Doing this before firing dramatically tightened up the groups. For bones only prone shooting of normal bolt guns, I was taught, first establilsh NP and then shoot. Essentially I was doing exactly that with the .50VBMG, the SPec-rest and the shooter. It is just that the Spec-Rest is now a very critical component of the firing system and has significant input into the NP of the system, so it should be locked in first. One effect of this sort of activity, is that it dramatically reduces the aimed rate of fire of the system.

The third issue is shooting from side of hill. I live in the Flint Hills of Kansas. And around here we have lots of hills! The guy who I talked to at Lone Star Field Productions (who sell the Spec-Rest) told me to "put one leg to the rear". I replied I had been taught to put 2 legs to the rear. He said "try it". I have been using 2 legs to the rear and so far, so good. He had also said, "recoil will feel like a .300WM off the Spec-Rest, when shooting a .50BMG". Well, I'm shoot my .300WM off manfrotto and shooting the .50BMG off spec-rest definitely was different. But my .300WM is heavy. Maybe he shoots a light one.
So when shooting the .50BMG off the side of a hill on the spec-rest with 2 legs back, the tripod tries to "jump" down the hill under recoil. I've also noticed that .30 cal plus rifles I am shooting prone bipod try to jump down hill under recoil off side of hill. By repositioning the spec-rest legs to better support the downhill effect, I hope to be able to slightly mitigate the downhill jump. Haven't tried this yet.

Spec-Rest also sells a quad pod module that only works from sitting position but the guy says is "sub moa". I want to try that. I'd say I am about 2 moa now. Which is useful out to 500yds but not to ELR distances. Our ELR stage is 1200-2400yds.

A side benefit of the spec-rest is that it is gREAT for zeroing other rifles. Almost eliminates need to go prone. And around here, going prone is not that easy. So I now have far more shots off the spec-rest zeroing 5.56(18), 6.5(18) and .300WM(24). I switch ammo between hunting and target shooting and for inventory management, so I am rezeroing often.

With the .50BMG, the spec rest does not allow observation of the hit/miss. The tripod moves under recoil and the firing system is no longer on target. The whole NP aiming process needs to be followed to get back on target. No rapid follow up capability with the .50BMG on there in my experience.

 

[Fig]

Diver is absolutely right. Free recoiling is not going to tell you anything.

I use aluminum Slik 700DX legs, a 40lb Sunwayfoto FB36III ball, and a Hog Saddle. Sorry I don't have specs. This rig seems light enough (to me) to carry over distance in the field while being pretty stable. I think a decent bag that will hold your rig with everything attached is more important than a couple (or more) of pounds. My rig is on the heavier end, and I don't notice it because this bag carries so well (Tripod Bag). Whatever rig you go with get a good carry system so you can carry it all assembled and make it less awkward.

I shoot it like a tank trap with sling support to the front of the rifle under the tripod and clipped to my belt. I just strip the sling to the right length and then move my hips back to down load the tripod. I start under the target, and then use my support hand to push down on the stock to bring the rifle on target. It's very stable with about a golf ball of flutter. I load into it very little with my shoulder (mostly just to keep the barrel from dropping) and try to keep as much down load into the saddle as possible. I notice no wind affecting me at all using this method. I easily spot my shots with a 6X47L, but I can not do so with a .300WM.

As was mentioned, it takes a lot of practice to do this quickly. I cannot do it quickly. It would probably be wiser not to use this method on any stage where you have to move again unless you're really smooth at it. Sometimes I just make the call that I'd rather take my time and get the impacts off the tank trap or the tripod and run out of time. At least then I know I won't flub the stage entirely by rushing.

 

[Diver160651]

Nice tools! Very jealous of your property! Please let me start by saying, I love that you are going through the work to provide feedback and comparisons.

FWIW, many can hit these types of relatively large targets the about without any kind of ball head etc just off a bag or fence.. the stuff that is making use spend the $$ is the precision that things like the RRS leveling base brings to the game. Most are looking for stability, speed, simplicity and low weight.

Here is NO real support, running right hand action left handed.. Yes, to do so, I am getting off the trigger way to fast. The the need to switch the front support hand (not needed with a bipod or direct to the tripod) and bring it all the way back to run the bolt I made compromises. The goal was to show the reset time it takes with no real support. Please note also it is a Huber 2 stage, resting on the second brake point, so the finger is pulling thru to near the hard stop, a lot more than it seems.


Because the The RRS leveling bases have become so good... now we need to make it more difficult Here is the DIY multi-position barricade practice device (2x4s-LOL).. It can work on any tripod as the idea is practicing on unstable obstacles anyway..
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rrs-tripod-barricade-practice-device.6841189/

BTW I didn't included, But Jake V's tack table is another very cool device. It can be used for above but very limited. The real use is a a rear support if your front rest needs to be something like a swinging rope or chain.

At the end of the day, all I am trying to get you to do is include the data you can, but don't leave out the most important data (pros) if you do not have the need or opportunity to experience the key features of the gold standard. Maybe just leave the RRS (pros) as not yet tested?

 

[MarkCO]

I have a Feisol 3342 with a Benro leveling base and a Fittest Arca QR clamp. Total price is right at $600 and weight is 3.6 lb. It took me a while to get what I wanted, but I love this set-up. I did remove the tension lever on the Benro, thread the stud and attach a knob to get the full tension range as installed on the Feisol.

People told me I would not be able to shoot past 15 degrees with it, but one click on the leg lock and I get another 15 degrees of down. It is smooth and fast. I have borrowed and shot off of some of the $1K plus set-ups and this one is right in the same performance window.

 

[Diver160651]

I have a Feisol 3342 with a Benro leveling base and a Fittest Arca QR clamp. Total price is right at $600 and weight is 3.6 lb. It took me a while to get what I wanted, but I love this set-up. I did remove the tension lever on the Benro, thread the stud and attach a knob to get the full tension range as installed on the Feisol.

People told me I would not be able to shoot past 15 degrees with it, but one click on the leg lock and I get another 15 degrees of down. It is smooth and fast. I have borrowed and shot off of some of the $1K plus set-ups and this one is right in the same performance window.

Show some pics I also like the Feisol Sticks

 

[wigwamitus]

==
You guys are so far ahead of me! I am plodding along trying to distill the meanings of many of your words

==

... Free recoiling is not going to tell you anything ...

If I knew what this meant I'm sure I would agree! I will keep noodling on possible meanings.

==

... I shoot it like a tank trap ...

I was in the artillery, so I don't think we shot "like a tank trap" ... maybe that is an armor thing ??
I have tried the sling, clip, belt thing and it did help put tension in the system. And I think it can perhaps slightly mitigate my "wind blows me around" issue. I need to try it some more. It is not "baked in" to my process yet.

... I notice no wind affecting me at all using this method ...

Wow! Right now for me, mitigating the winds blowing me around and increasing my lateral wobble is my main issue. If I can distill methods of solving this issue I will be to the next level!

... I can not do so with a .300WM ...

What happens with .300WM ??

For me I notice no difference, in fact, 6.5G(18) felt recoil is greater than .300WM(24) felt recoil off manfrottos.

==

... just leave the RRS (pros) as not yet tested ...

Yes, I will not be able to test them myself as I do not have one, but happy to see results of testing/use from others.

==

... RRS leveling bases have become so good... now we need to make it more difficult ...

Wow !!! RSS beats the wind !!?? Amazing !!!

 

[MarkCO]

Here is my set up for the severe downhill, and the removal of the lever with the knob for tension on the Benro. The Benro BTW, is rated at 110 pounds.

Note: Had the RRS clamp and adapter on when I took the photo. The Fittest looks the same, but direct mounts to the Feisol without an adapter and 1/3 the price.

 

[Diver160651]

Shoot it like a “tank trap” is like in the video I posted, generally with the bag in the crux of the trap.

“Free recoiling is not going to teach you anything” equals, You can’t learn what the wind did to your shot, especially at short ranges. It usually results in one miss, becoming at least two miss.

And yes, the leveling bass does make a difference in the wobble both left and right and up-and-down and Highwinds

 

[wigwamitus]

... Shoot it like a “tank trap” ...

Ok cool thanks, got that one !!! (pic worth 1000 words )

==

... You can’t learn with the wind it to your shot ...

I'm sure you're right ... still noodling possible meanings for these words ...

==

... And yes the leveling bass does make a difference in the wobble both left and right and up-and-down and Highwinds ...

Ok then, have to find a way to try this !!!

==
Thanks, thanks thanks !!!

 

[Diver160651]

Sorry.. I post via Siri for the text.

Meant to say: Free recoil comment // You can not learn what the wind did, without seeing your shot.

 

[wigwamitus]

Ah ok ... so some software called "siri" is "correcting" your words !

==
Ok, now in my case, when the wind is blowing me around ... and inducing wobble into the gun/manfrotto, I can usually see my shot miss. Almost all the time in the day or night. I am usually wide to the left or right. The wind is essentially "knocking" me ... pushing me sideways and my muscles then push me back where I was ... that causes my sight picture to look like the gun is swinging back and forth, left to right. So like around 600yds the gun swings left of the 12 inch target by 12 inches and then right to the point 12 inches to the right of the target, back and forth. I try to time my shot so the shot goes down range when in the middle of the target and sometimes I hit and sometimes I am left and sometimes I am right. Now I am also holding for wind, so I mean the point in the reticle I am aiming with is moving back and forth in the way I described.
But in the day if I miss I see the splash of dust ... at night the same (via thermal).
But what the wind did, was move me back and forth a lot causing the size of the left/right wobble to reduce the hit probability to like 50% ... so arguably I know what the wind is doing. I just don't know how to mitigate that other than: Lower myself down to sitting position (which sometimes means I can't see the target) or move myself closer ... not always possible if hunting as the critter might move away ... and not always desired if I am trying to practice in these conditions ... or stop ... as I am wasting ammo ...

But I believe you are saying a tripod with the RRS leveling base will help mitigate the left/right wobble of the gun and thus mitigate the wind effects. So I want to try that !!!

Here is pic of 660yd FP on my land ... that's the 6.5G(18)

 

[Diver160651]

^ Nice, that is so cool.

 

[wigwamitus]

2018-03-18
1200-1500
50F
10 MPF ESE

Goals: 6.5G(18) rezero

Environment: Overcast, small amount of mirage during most of zeroing, then a ton of mirage showed up. Mirage is good and bad. Wind was highly variable in direction and intensity.

Equipment: 6.5G(18), NF 7-35x Tremor-3, 123 AMAX, Bushy AE 1600

Activity: Setup at 91 meters and ran 5 rds off the tripod with the magnetospeed. The avg speed was 2422 with SD 12. Previous 5 rds was 2413 SD 12.5 So I split the difference with 2417 and SD 12.2.
Then zeroed at 100yds prone.

Then went to 500yds (known distance). Throwing dirt up in the high for wind direction. First it blew from 90 off the bullet path. Later it blew from 180 off the bullet path and after that the dirt went straight up and came straight down.
The mirage was boiling.
The orange dots I put in the center of the paper target were jumping around 0.2 mil in the reticle in all directions.
The wind was highly variable in direction and intensity.
AB said 3.7 up and I guess 0.2 right for wind.

First 5 rd group at the paper. Elevation is decent, but wind stringing me out.

Then 5 rd group at the steel. I remembered to paint it first.

Then went to 663 meters (unknown distance lased with Bushy). That's 725yds. AB said up 7.3. Krestrel said 5.5 MPH from 90 degrees off the bullet path or 0.6 right.

I could not see the target prone so switched to tripod sitting.

The mirage was still bad.

First round the dust was a few inches left and high. I reduced wind hold by .2 and elevation hold by .2 (5 inches) I'm shooting down hill but not sure by how much, but probably enough to make me a little high.

Second rd was hit, repeated, third rd was hit.

Results/Summary: The NF sure is good at seeing the mirage !!! Mirage is good as it gives you a good read on the wind. Mirage is bad because is makes the target jump around and it makes the target fuzzy. Backing off on the magnification reduces the fuzzy a bit. I think I read messing with the parallax can reduce the jumping around, but I messed with the parallax and I didn't see the jumping around stop. Will go hunt for those words.

 

[wigwamitus]

I mention above I had issue with the second 322rc-2 head not retaining tension. I had the idea to remove all the tension, then reapply the tension. That seems to have improved the situation!!! I will test further tonight.

==
I'd like to try the RRS leveling base ... the universal one I guess. Will that work on the manfrottos, or do I have to get a different tripod?

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Universal-Leveling-Base

 

[atxhorn4425]

I'd like to try the RRS leveling base ... the universal one I guess. Will that work on the manfrottos, or do I have to get a different tripod?

http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/Universal-Leveling-Base

It'll work on anything with a standard mounting screw.

One thing I will note, however, is that it's really helpful to be able to use the set screw on the RRS if the tripod doesn't have one. Doesn't matter how tight you put the RRS unit on, without a set screw or some heavy duty thread locker, the giant lever that is your rifle will back the RRS off the threads when its locked if you load the rifle counterclockwise. Drove me nuts on my Hog Saddle tripod, but wasn't an issue with a Feisol because I could use the set screw.

 

[wigwamitus]

I think the Manfrotto has a set screw ... but I need a screw driver about 1 inch long in order to get to that screw ... and I seem to be fresh out of 1 inch long screw drivers !!!

 

[atxhorn4425]

If the top of the Manfrotto column or apex where the mounting screw is is wide enough, you can use the one on the RRS. The Hog Saddle tripod was just too narrow.

 

[Diver160651]

Just looking at you images, it looks like you are running one leg under the barrel. That works well for tripod systems with a bit of play in them. This is ike how we shot the old manfrotos. Some times adding a sling. Of course with practice anything works.

If you get the chance to try a non-universal leveling base on really stiff legs, you will find that the shooter technique is best switched around.

With the stiffer set-up, the legs can be almost in a bipod fashion, with one leg near the shooter at 5 or 7o’clock.

This allows FAR less shooter load and reduced the wobble and the rear facing leg helps manage the recoil. So you shoot it more like you might a barricade. It is a different technique as mentioned and may take a few attempts to find the sweet spot between load and support..

Maybe @MPHReallyRightStuff can arrange a loaner for your test?

 

[wigwamitus]

ooo ... so I need the "non-universal leveling base" ... on "non-manfrotto" to get close to the "full effect" ...
ok
Moving the legs around doesn't bother me ... that is needed anyway when shooting off sides of hills and such ...

 

[wigwamitus]

Question: Does this "minimum-loading" approach have trade off of making it more difficult to see where the bullet went? Due to recoil putting you off target? (life is full of trade-offs ... )

 

[Diver160651]

Question: Does this "minimum-loading" approach have trade off of making it more difficult to see where the bullet went? Due to recoil putting you off target? (life is full of trade-offs ... )

Yes, if you completely free-recoil. But the amazing thing with the stiffer legs run backwards is how it counteracts the light load. With the correct balance you can reduce wobble and see impacts at close range on match grade guns...

Lastly, you’ll want the leveling base “almost” but not fully locked down. The drag will let you re-rack and get recenteted faster, than unlocking and relocking. It also seems to soften the recoil..rather than trying to kill it like the funky lead-sleds.

Yes, lots of trade offs, in this case it is money but at $1.25 a round the ROI is worth it.

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Yes, if you completely free-recoil. But the amazing thing with the stiffer legs run backwards is how it counteracts the light load. With the correct balance you can reduce wobble and see impacts at close range on match grade guns...

Lastly, you’ll want the leveling base “almost” but not fully locked down. The drag will let you re-rack and get recenteted faster, than unlocking and relocking. It also seems to soften the recoil..rather than trying to kill it like the funky lead-sleds.

Yes, lots of trade offs, in this case it is money but at $1.25 a round the ROI is worth it.

-- Just read down to here, and wanted to ask if you had tried the head a bit "loose"

I noticed a few different shooters shooting with heads (maybe leveling bases as well) using 1 of 2 general techniques during PRS.

a. Moving the rifle on the head to the position of the target, then turning the knob to lock down the head - then shooting
b. Keeping the head a bit "loose" so that it will move when you want it too, but won't drop fast when you let go. This pre-tension on the head, allows for movement without having to lock/unlock the head each time your on target.

Have you tried both ways with a head in regards to controlling recoil and seeing your impacts? I found the keep the head a bit loose seems to work best for me, not sure exactly why, but I seem to hit steel better with this setup.

 

[Diver160651]

-- Just read down to here, and wanted to ask if you had tried the head a bit "loose"

I noticed a few different shooters shooting with heads (maybe leveling bases as well) using 1 of 2 general techniques during PRS.

a. Moving the rifle on the head to the position of the target, then turning the knob to lock down the head - then shooting
b. Keeping the head a bit "loose" so that it will move when you want it too, but won't drop fast when you let go. This pre-tension on the head, allows for movement without having to lock/unlock the head each time your on target.

Have you tried both ways with a head in regards to controlling recoil and seeing your impacts? I found the keep the head a bit loose seems to work best for me, not sure exactly why, but I seem to hit steel better with this setup.

Hi Fred,

As you know I can’t type to save my life. So it’s hard for me to get a message across often. But yes I tried both ways. I was attempting to describe what you did in option B as my preferred choice. It is hands-down more forgiving, especially for follow-ups or multiple targets.

This method is counterintuitive to some (as is reversing the legs and reducing the shooter drive into the gun), But both these work well because there is no vibration/flex in the system.

Jim

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

Hi Fred,

As you know I can’t type to save my life. So it’s hard for me to get a message across often. But yes I tried both ways. I was attempting to describe what you did in option B as my preferred choice. It is hands-down more forgiving, especially for follow-ups or multiple targets.

Jim

Yep, exactly what I found - I use that technique on heads, but haven't tried it on a leveling base, but it would make sense it would work just as well on the leveling bases. And it is really difficult to describe ;-)

 

[Fred @ Bison Tactical]

By the way, I really like your idea on the barricade simulator !

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok, so if I get something like this pair, I should be able to experience the wind mitigating wonders of the RRS leveling base !!??

Feisol 3342
http://www.feisol.net/home/feisol-tournament-tripod-ct-3342-rapid.html


TA-4 Level Base
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/TA-4-Leveling-Base

 

[Diver160651]

Well, wind is wind tough on all setups.

Hopefully, we are not talking apples oranges. My comments are primarily focused around precision and speed, yes it is somewhat better in wind, but if our bodies are moving, everything sucks.

Do you have anyone in your area you could ping to test? Again, maybe reach out to Mike at RRS for a loaner (cc secured?) for a week or to to test and report on here your findings. Just give it some time to learn how to best take advantage of the setup.

If you go the route you listed above, read this thread to see how the RRS works on the Feisol and what the drawbacks might be. Several guys are using it with no ill effects.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rrs-leveling-heads-on-rrs-tvc-33-feisol-3372.6570549/

 

[wigwamitus]

Went back and re-read this thread and think I was hanging on Diver's various words

... I also like the Feisol Sticks ...

...And yes, the leveling bass does make a difference in the wobble both left and right and up-and-down and Highwinds ...

... If you get a chance try the leveling head setup on someones sticks with your 6.5. Run one leg more rear word to help with the recoil and only drive the gun slightly. You'll get big smiles ...

But then I see the below words I realize I may have mis-interpreted the above ...

... Well, wind is wind tough on all setups.

Hopefully, we are not talking apples oranges. My comments are primarily focused around precision and speed, yes it is somewhat better in wind, but if our bodies are moving, everything sucks.

Do you have anyone in your area you could ping to test?

If you go the route you listed, read this thread to see how the RRS works on the Feisol and what the drawbacks might be. Several guys are using it with no ill effects.
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/rrs-leveling-heads-on-rrs-tvc-33-feisol-3372.6570549/

Yes, my problem is the wind blowing me around. I do load the tripod when shooting standing up and not lightly. The wind is blowing me around. Loading the tripod stabilizes ME, at least a little. But over 600yds and 10 MPH the left/right wobble reduces the PoH to 50% and makes me get lower, or take other mitigating action.

As to someone in my area I could ping to test ... well I was thinking of pinging myself ... I am ready to test !!!

So I will go read that other thread to see what the drawbacks might be of the Feisol. I had noticed at least three people that posted on this thread were using Feisol with RRS base and spoke positivily, so was hoping that setup would help mitigate the wind, but I think "drawbacks" means maybe not. So I will go read and noodle further.

Thanks again !!!

 

[Killswitch Engage]

i have a tvc-33 with ta-3 and one of my good shooting buddies has a fiesol with ta-3 leveling base. its is a very sturdy combination but does require slight modification to run the ta-3 on the fiesol. very simple to do though.

there are some points on the rrs that are just a touch better overall like the leg locks and apex thickness. i love my RRS and its probably one of the best investments in shooting gear ive made. i also use mine probably 5-10x a week for night hunting and prs practice etc so i feel as though i am getting my monies worth out of it. i surmise you would instantly see the value and roi for yourself wigwam given the amount of night shooting and hunting you are doing there. i will never be without this tripod whether it be at a match or in the field. its that good without question

 

[wigwamitus]

Thanks so much KSE !!!

One question, are you a "light" loader or a "heavy" loader on the tripods ... I think I am a "heavy" loader ...

 

[Diver160651]

Went back and re-read this thread and think I was hanging on Diver's various words







But then I see the below words I realize I may have mis-interpreted the above ...



Yes, my problem is the wind blowing me around. I do load the tripod when shooting standing up and not lightly. The wind is blowing me around. Loading the tripod stabilizes ME, at least a little. But over 600yds and 10 MPH the left/right wobble reduces the PoH to 50% and makes me get lower, or take other mitigating action.

As to someone in my area I could ping to test ... well I was thinking of pinging myself ... I am ready to test !!!

So I will go read that other thread to see what the drawbacks might be of the Feisol. I had noticed at least three people that posted on this thread were using Feisol with RRS base and spoke positivily, so was hoping that setup would help mitigate the wind, but I think "drawbacks" means maybe not. So I will go read and noodle further.

Thanks again !!!

Btw I just listened to Frank’s Podbean podcast ..it seems to be timely. He just had a section on he and Mike. Mike was using the RRS Leveling base Frank used the an RRS with center column and ball head..

I think they might agree with the feedback I’ve been posting. It slso seemed like Mike uses a similar technique that Fred from Bison and I are describing when on the RRS leveling base. Again, key to that is not over driving and reversing the legs as mentioned.

In low wind 10-12mph I think you might be amazed, of the difference. For us out west 20-25ish is the wind describing when I start also really blowing around. I am not back peddling on the RRS/leveling base being superior to a ball head and legs with center columns. Just wanted to be as clear as my poor Siri dictation allows.

The thread I did showing how to install the RRS leveling base into the Feisol was meant to show the differences in the units. Previously to that recent thread most people believed that was not an option.

Edited to add: Yes, I like the Feisol legs too. And if you want to load on the leveling base it works too, just your going to have more wobble, but less than the center column and ballhead counter parts.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Just wanted to be as clear as my poor Siri dictation allows ...

....


aye on the wind ... I think it is more the gusting ... than the raw strength ... well perhaps up to around 30ish ... the 10-15 ... i.e. 10 mph base gusting up to 15 gives you a shove and pushes you around ... and then your muscles pull you back ... creating a swaying motion ... I am always "heavy" loading the tripod ... so me moving ... as part of the system ... moves the gun and causes the widening of the swing of the reticle across the target.

I am willing to assume there is no viable solution for that other than going lower ... which definitely helps.

And yes I could see that you figured out how to make the Feisol work with an RRS base in that thread !!!

I now take the summary of your words to be same as what KSE said ... get the RRS legs and head.