Rifle Scopes Try to educate this dumbass on FFP

[phillip61]

I think understand the basic principle. The reticle size stays the same thru out the entire mag range so ranging is easier done thru the scope itself. But it seems like I read a post by LowLight where he said something to the effect that ranging using the reticle is what most people do the least with a FFP scope. Maybe I misread the post. But if that is what most folks do the least then what is the benefit of an FFP.

Just trying to understand because around june when my 6.5 is built I will be in the market for another scope.

 

[GUNNER10]

Giving or making corrections. Say you are spotting for a friend or vice versa. He misses a shot. With FFP, you just measure the miss and relay that information and he is on target. No dicking around zooming down to a calibration point. No worries about doing math because there is a nice amount of mirage at its calibration point.



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[mcmillanman5]

In a FFP scope the reticle appears to grow and shrink as magnification is adjusted. This is so that the reticle will match its corresponding size (mil/MOA) at any power. I can't comment on how much or little range estimation is used by others. One of the main factors would be wind and elevation holds at any magnification are correct with FFP.

 

[Chad44]

Giving or making corrections. Say you are spotting for a friend or vice versa. He misses a shot. With FFP, you just measure the miss and relay that information and he is on target. No dicking around zooming down to a calibration point. No worries about doing math because there is a nice amount of mirage at its calibration point.



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This is why I want one. I have a range finder for ranging.

 

[EventHorizon]

For many SFP scopes the true measure of the reticle is either at max magnification or half the total magnification. If you are at a level of magnification that is not at the setting for true values then you just have to add a step in the mental math for making calls, hold-overs/adjustments.

It's just easier. The idea of using the reticle for ranging - a lot - is from comps that have 'no rangers' /unknown distances stages.

 

[phillip61]

I shoot mostly off a bench or the ground. Most of the time by myself. There is no tactical matches or competitions anywhere close except little rock and it's a known distance range, 600yds on Saturday and 1000 on Sunday. There is no place here in Texarkana to look at a FFP scope that I know of. Hard to make that jump when you've never even looked thru one before.

 

[Notso]

I think understand the basic principle. The reticle size stays the same thru out the entire mag range so ranging is easier done thru the scope itself.

Not to get into semantics, but the reticle doesn't stay the same size. The reticle actually grows and shrinks with the magnification up or down. What stays the same at all mags is what the reticle subtends. In other words, 1 mil is still a mil at 5x as it is at 25x.

In SFP scopes, the whole reticle itself stays the same size as the mag changes - therefore what the reticle subtends is different as magnifications OTHER THAN what the scope is set for. From the Vortex PST manual on their SFP scopes:

In the Viper PST second focal plane riflescopes, the listed MRAD subtensions of the EBR-1 reticle are only valid at the highest magnifications of the scope. However, by understanding the relationship of magnification and subtensions, you can still calculate ranging, holdovers, and wind drift at partial magnifications. Here are some examples:
• If the magnification is set at 1/2 the full magnification, subtension values will be two times the spec listed in the manual.

• If the magnification is set at 1/3 the full magnification, subtension values will be three times the spec listed in the manual.
• If the magnification is set at 1/4 the full magnification, subtension values will be four times the spec listed in the manual.

This is the power of the FFP scopes - the ability to not have to do any math. In FFP, the reticle subtensions are correct at any power.

Now for the use, you are correct - ranging is the least of the utilities of an FFP (although it is certainly a very valid use of it). The real utility as many have mentioned is the ability to make corrections to your misses on any power as well as the ability to use holdovers/windage on any power and have them be accurate without doing any math.

Does that make sense? Unless you are just on an extremely tight budget and just absolutely cannot afford the couple of hundy extra for an FFP version of whatever scope your thinking about - I personally see no sense in ever spending $$ on an SFP scope. Ever. YMMV

 

[steve123]

Holdover, holdoff, range, lead, measure using the reticle on any magnification.

Basically no thinking involved.

The most prevalent things I appreciate most about FFP are...

1. Choosing which magnification best suits the situation. Dial mag down for heavy mirage or for FOV requirements.

2. That I don't have to worry about which mag the scope is on for wind holds. I use the .2 mil horizontal lines in a H59 reticle to measure how far out I need to aim in the wind. It has been a advantage for me!

 

[cshann55]

This conversation is why im still using a fixed power scope for my long range shooting.
Excellent heading though, got me to look. and the "simplified" examples are great.

 

[emdeucee]

For any presicion rifle, i would only get FFP for true reticle/knob matching adjustments thru all ranges of power. The only time i see myself gettig a SFP is for a non precision rifle. For my non precison AR15, i will be putting a 3-9x or 10x. The reason being that it is more of a point n shoot plinker. The only time I would shoot past 100 yard is at full power where the reticle will match the adjustments.

 

[datec]

Orkan did a spot where he explained and shown the differances side by side. I try and find it and post back.

 

[datec]

Primal Rights ? Primal Rights -- Rifle Sighting Systems - Part 3: SFP vs FFP

Here ya go, pretty cool read.

 

[Cobracutter]

One issue is measurement. Not all scopes have correct Mil/MOA distance as stated by the Mag/range specs.... With a SFP its also hard to get the exact spot for 1/2,1/4,1/8,ect calculations that will compound over long distances.

 

[dieselgeek]

I tried to put it in photos and video. I don't know if it helped anyone though lol


Understanding First Focal Plane Rifle Scopes - YouTube

 

[maverick2]

Primal Rights ? Primal Rights -- Rifle Sighting Systems - Part 3: SFP vs FFP

Here ya go, pretty cool read.

Thanks for posting that -- hadn't run across it before. Great read!

 

[farmerbrown]

Hi,

I started to use them when I started shooting with a spotter - he also uses a FFP spotting scope with a Mil-dot reticule.

Corrections are a breeze...

 

[remr5]

hdmr scope tremor 2 reticle mil/mil. You will love it

 

[dAyLiTe]

Lowlight has a good point regarding the ranging... and with modern range finders, it's just easier to use one of them.
...besides, how many shooters honestly understand how to work backwards from target size -> range distance -> elevation... and then actually do so.

You can chose either FFP or SFP, and it depends on your style of shooting.

If you always dial everything (Elev & Wind), then SFP makes sense, as you get a nice thin reticle at all magnifications... and you can basically chose whatever reticle that you feel like (even simple cross-hairs), as it won't really matter.

If you hold over in any way (even if you dial Elev, and hold Wind), you're going to need a reticle that has some sort of calibrated unit of measurement therein (MilDot, MilHash,etc) in order to best estimate how much to hold over by. This is where FFP scopes are better than SFP scopes, as that unit of measure is relative to the target. It is 'possible' to work this out with SFP scopes, it just requires maths for each magnification (which can be a pain)... so FFP is a lot easier.

As others have mentioned, it does help with second shot follow ups, as you can (presuming a you're a good shot) measure how much you were 'off' by and readjust there afterwards for any following shots. You can even rework your wind value backwards and apply to targets at different ranges in the same direction.

So FFP becomes another tool in your toolbox for shooting at Long Range... which you can choose to use or not use. There are also many new types of complicated FFP reticles out there (Horus H59 & TReMoR2, Leupold CMR-W, etc), and each has been designed with an application in mind. You need to work out if they are applicable to what you want to use your rifle for. In addition you're going to need to spend quite a bit of time understanding how the reticle works... if not, then rather go simple MilDot or MilHash.

FFP scopes however, do have some drawbacks, in that if you are at maximum magnification the reticle can seem quite 'thick' even to the point of obscuring what you're shooting at if it's very very small.... and at minimum magnification the reticle can get so feint and small that it's hard to see. This is generally more of a problem with scopes that have a wide range of magnification.
A lot of this is scope dependant, so go look at the scope you want to buy, not just order it online, or by hearsay.

The one rule of thumb that you should follow if you use a reticle that has a unit of measurement (even with SFP), is that the turret unit of measure MUST be the same unit of measure as the reticle... if not, you're going to have to be a math genius to work stuff out on the fly. Which is just plain not fun.

Note: I'm not a hunter, and I'm more interested in 1st shot on target, given 40-60 seconds to work out: range, wind, then a firing solution, then set the scope up (turrets, parallax, hold), and then take the shot. Does this work for hunting; don't ask me, I wouldn't know.

Lastly: Spend as much on your scope as you did on your rifle... as there is no point in buying a rifle that holds better accuracy than your scope, and neither the other way round. The system is only as good as it's worst component.