TT and Vortex Gen3 in PRS
- Thread starter anginaprinzmetal
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Probably just wanting to try the different options out today.
That's not always true. People change for different reason. Not always because of issues. Even "top shooters".
Also glass isn't always a reason to change. Most glass out there is plenty good enough to shoot a match with.
If you want to get into the weeds about it, TT doesn’t really sponsor anyone. So all those guys bought the scopes with their own money. If you’re talking about Leupold specifically they’ve got a huge marketing budget and while they may not get paid paid the incentives and scopes are sure easier to get and much much cheaper if there’s any cost to them at all.
Gen 3’s have had some thermal shift issues recently that guys have been complaining about. Some even went back to Razor 2’s. If you got a good Razor 3 there’s no worries, but for guys at the top it doesn’t inspire great confidence.
Leupold isn’t immune either tho to their own issues. And neither is any other brand.
Gen 3’s have had some thermal shift issues recently that guys have been complaining about. Some even went back to Razor 2’s. If you got a good Razor 3 there’s no worries, but for guys at the top it doesn’t inspire great confidence.
Leupold isn’t immune either tho to their own issues. And neither is any other brand.
I heard about the thermal issues w Gen3s. Mine have been good so far but you always wonder, I heard people going to ZCO. I wonder if Vortex will address the resin/thermal issues or it’s sporadic enough not to warrant a recall or something
I would hate for it to go down in a big match, but not sure I want to jump ship to ZCO or NF. I have seen a couple of Leupolds from top shooters go down though and for a while some argue there were issues w ZCO Spuhr combos
I would hate for it to go down in a big match, but not sure I want to jump ship to ZCO or NF. I have seen a couple of Leupolds from top shooters go down though and for a while some argue there were issues w ZCO Spuhr combos
I’ve made the switch from tangent to zco and back to tangent twice now. I keep ending up back with tangent. People are shooting leupold because they are getting them for free or getting paid to shoot them in one way or another. I’ve heard the vortex g3 has had several issues and I haven’t seen a ton on the firing line at matches lately.
Any optic can go down. If yours is working then I would stick with it although I had not heard of those issues with the Gen III. You talking tracking shifts with temp changes? That would bother me. I haven't used Vortex in a couple years but would be checking that if I did.
Thermal shift issues? Can you elaborate?
Some top shooters have been saying they’re noticing a shift in zero during extremely hot days. They then went back to the Razor 2 and didn’t have said issues. Including to switching scopes mid match.
Well am in Vegas and it’s 115-117 degrees this week. Got a G3 on my CZ457, I’ll keep an eye out for any shift.
One has to wonder if this is a design/mechanical issue (I cannot think how tbis could be a mechanical issue) or is it a epixy/resins/plastic issue
If you’re in SE Texas you know it’s hot and humid af. My zero was done around 83 degrees and towards the tail end of the match today got to around 90 and sunny. I didn’t notice a shift in my zero. Maybe it wasn’t hot enough? I guess my G3 is fine.
So does the shift just happens when at a certain temperature a la Eotech? Or does it keep shifting throughout the day as it gets hotter I wonder.
I think we’re referring to temp swings out west/desert. Not uncommon to stsrt at 70 degrees and end up at 100-105
I’m going off what was mentioned about a zero shift as day gets hotter. I didn’t know about it until a few minutes ago. It’s news to me.
People shoot what they can get their hands on (free, discount, or with their own money), reticle/feature preference, or what the latest and greatest thing is.
They certainly don't need to. They have the entire Maple Syrup reserve at their fingertips.
Well it’s good enough reason for me not to support themThey certainly don't need to. They have the entire Maple Syrup reserve at their fingertips.
That’s an odd take.Well it’s good enough reason for me not to support them
Not really. Why support a company that doesn’t do anything to support the sport? Pretty straight forward reason.
Don’t care. Other companies support the sport and have a presence. They have zero. I’ll support the companies that support the sports.
I don’t like the reticle in TT or Razor3
Biggest factor for me is reticle and turrets. They both have great turrets, but reticle selection is severely lacking imo.
Typically any scope over the $2K mark is going to have glass that works well. Some better than others, but good for PRS
Biggest factor for me is reticle and turrets. They both have great turrets, but reticle selection is severely lacking imo.
Typically any scope over the $2K mark is going to have glass that works well. Some better than others, but good for PRS
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Interesting. I have not seen that and we have pretty serious temperature variations here. I'll keep an eye out.
ILya
Yea let us know if you find something. I don’t think it’s necessarily a wide spread issue but I do think some concerns are legitimate. I just think a few top shooters have an issue and then some prematurely jump ship so to speak.
I know you have a pretty good relationship with Scott and the team so if I do hear more stuff about it I’ll get you some details maybe you can ask him.
Actually that number has been dropping over the years. You can find scopes just over $1000 now that will do the job very well.
Will be interesting to see if anything comes from the "thermal shift" theories. Would be the first scope I have seen with this. Might have to ask Scott also.
It would be interesting to test the thermal shift theory separate from a match where fatigue, time constraints, and mental state likely play a role.
-Stan
-Stan
To elaborate on my post (#13) I shot a rimfire match yesterday. I’m zeroed at 50 yards. Between stages my rifle and optic were left exposed in the hot sun without any shade. Our last stage of the day was a benchrest style accuracy stage at 50 yards. Shooters had 2 minutes to break 5 shots on paper while seated at a bench. I definitely did not lose zero. Does centerfire recoil and heat have to do with anything? I don’t know. But as far as my Gen 3 goes, I have not experienced anything (yet).
Yup. Had this conversation with a top shooter who moved from vortex to zco recently at a match. The gen 3 is a very good optic ( I have 3 and run them in prs) but it does not have the same build quality/durrability/reliability as the gen 2s. I already had to RMA one.
Thinking about going back to zco or TT for this reason. For maybe the new khales.
Confidence is such a big part of this game and you need to believe in your equipment.
@Rob01 That is very true Rob.
I’ve been using my Stryker since Nov and it has been excellent! Well beyond what I paid for it.
Even my old Cronus gen 1 that sits in the safe works well glass wise.
I just got a smokin deal on a XRS3 6-36 that I’m excited to try out on my 22GT trainer.
When ZCO, TT get more flavors of reticle to my liking, I’ll jump into pool then.
I’ve been using my Stryker since Nov and it has been excellent! Well beyond what I paid for it.
Even my old Cronus gen 1 that sits in the safe works well glass wise.
I just got a smokin deal on a XRS3 6-36 that I’m excited to try out on my 22GT trainer.
When ZCO, TT get more flavors of reticle to my liking, I’ll jump into pool then.
Focus shift with temperature increase is real. Field target shooters see it all the time. Zero shift is a different ballgame. If you do not adjust side focus after a significant temperature shift, you can have additional parallax error that masquerades as zero shift. However, side focus adjustment should take care of that.
I'll give it some more thought.
ILya
I'll give it some more thought.
ILya
100%
I just experienced this myself with my ZCO and G3. Not sure if there was much of a zero shift since I wasn’t checking for that but once temperatures increased out here from mid 80s to 100+ degrees my parallax was all over the place.
Also internal/external ballistics come into play with large temp swings and if not accounted for or known about it could look like a scope issue.
TT JTAC and ZCO MPCT 1X are fantastic reticles if you haven’t seen them.
Running MPCT1X now and I love it. I have always wanted to get behind a JTAC.
I honestly would not put too much stock in what top PRS shooters are using.
If you need a mount for it I have a gray ops one in the px for sale for 225. That’s almost 170 cheaper than new. It comes in the box and everything. I only used it for 2-3 matches.I
that MPCT 1X!!!!!
Crap!!! There’s go’s $4,000!!!
That's interesting. I wonder (if it's real) if someone can identify what temperature threshold it becomes a thing at.
I've done some experiments on this in the past (when I first ran into field target guys and they brought it up) and I did not see any zero shift. There was a completely expected focus shift that was corrected via the parallax knob. I did not experiment with the Razor G3. When I played with it I was looking at March and Tangent (short depth of field vs very large depth of field).
I sat down and gave it some thought and it is not clear to me how thermal expansion can cause this unless something else is wrong (mounts are binding the erector assembly or focus cell). However, in that situation there would a host of other issues.
@Covertnoob5 If you know anyone who has a scope with this issue and they are willing to part with the scope for a bit (i.e. send it to me), I can try to diagnose it with proper equipment.
Unless there is something going on that I do not understand, this should not be a thing and is likely something else. I have a Razor Gen3, so perhaps I'll do experiments on that one. Purely anecdotally, where I live the temperature of the scope can easily shift by 30-40 degrees simply by the sun moving and the rifle not longer being in the shade. I was not looking for it, admittedly, but RG3 spent quite a lot of time on my rimfire and I did not see any zero shifts through a significant range of temperatures.
ILya
So is this an actual scope zero shift problem or a mirage or lighting issue. Cause if someone is checking zero in the middle of a match and it’s 100 degrees then there’s a ton of mirage. Also I’ve heard from several shooters that it if you zero in the morning or evening and then check zero mid day you can get a shift due to different light conditions. I shoot matches with a lot of guys using a Gen III and this is the first I’ve heard of a zero shift issue because of the scope.
I heard someone mention it a last week at the Hornady match, but no names were given. I kind of wonder just how many people are ditching their G3s, or if it's one of those hear say things that gets amplified online and trumped up to being way more than it should be when it's just one or two people.
I know our local match last month it was 103 and probably 10 guys running Gen 3’s without a problem other than mirage was horrible. At the Okie showdown it was 60-90 over the two days and only heard of two scopes going down in that match and one was in my squad. Had a Luepold fog up in the rain, the guy tried cleaning his lenses and finally just dropped his mag and took a zero.
Are you asking about focus shifts? Some scopes seem to exhibit it less than others, but all exhibit it to some degree. March's High Master optical system has less shift than what they had before, for example, but it still shifts. In other words, noone has yet outlawed the laws of physics: when you warm up metals (most of them), they expand.
You can make a design that compensates for it mechanically (to some degree), but with riflescopes, it is kind of a non-issue since a small adjustment of the side focus knob takes care of it.
That's why I am so curious about this alleged zero shift. It is absolutely unclear to me what inside the scope could cause this.
ILya
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