Two new (to me) Wildcats - .240 & .270 Gibbs

[Anb618]

I hope some folks can tear themselves away from the (amazingly entertaining) late Festivus airing of grievances that is the “Felipe is Angry” thread…

My father-in-law told me months ago that he planned to give me a few rifles early. He’s mentioned in the past, morbidly, that he’s left me all his firearms when he dies. He cryptically mentioned I was getting these two early because I could handload for them, and said that would be necessary aside from a small amount of ammo he had on hand. I had no idea what I was to receive. He came over earlier this week for dinner and gifted me two beautiful classics;

A pre-64 Winchester Model 70 originally chambered in .270 WCF, rechambered in .270 Gibbs.

and what I believe is a sporterized Mauser (I wish I was more knowledgeable with these rifles to be able to better ID the action) chambered in .240 Gibbs.

The .240G has a windage/elevation adjustable Kuharsky Bros scope mount.

The .270G has a windage/elevation adjustable B&L Opt. Co. (early Bausch & Lomb) scope mount.

Neither included rings…
FIL said his brother is looking for the scopes/rings that were originally with them, but I’m not holding my breath on that.

They both belonged to his grandfather, and he was told by family that they were both chambered by Rocky Gibbs himself (no documentation, but pretty neat). Geography alone makes me suspicious that’s probably not the case (Rocky lived in Idaho, and my FIL’s family is from Ohio) but anything’s possible and I have no idea where his grandfather lived throughout his life prior to settling in OH.

He had 50-75 reloads of each on hand, all brass formed from .mil surplus .30-06. Unfortunately, I quickly determined that I won’t be shooting any of the .270 reloads, as they have some extreme OAL variances (we’re talking a ~0.25” difference between the longest and shortest) and I noticed more than a few loaded rounds with split case necks (some obvious, and a few showing clear signs splits are imminent). The apparent quality of the .270G loads makes me hesitant to shoot any of the .240G handloads, which otherwise appear outwardly fine (I haven’t put a caliper on any of them yet).

Luckily, he also gave me 40 rounds of Quality Cartridge produced .240 Gibbs factory ammo (75gr VMax) so at least I have 40 shots, plus the remaining factory new brass to play with. Apparently they did a short run of factory ammo for this caliber, and my FIL’s brother had the forethought to buy a small amount while it was available.

I’ve read as much as I can on the internet about these two over the past few days, and everything I’ve found says these cartridges are tough to load for in the sense that they don’t show pressure signs until you’re well into dangerous territory. I plan to buy a borescope to determine what kind of shape the throats are in on these barrel burners, since I have no idea how much they’ve been shot.

Looking for some knowledgable contributions from the SH Vintage community;

• I’m posting here hoping someone will have ideas for a good quality (somewhat timeline correct for the popular era of this cartridge, circa 1960-1970) optic? Something top quality (for that era) I could find for reasonable prices on eBay or other auction sites.
• I need to find scope rings for the corresponding mounts the rifles already have. I think they’re neat, and I’d like to keep them if possible.
• I need a place to purchase dies for both (priority on the .240, but both eventually), whether custom order or (hopefully) someone here played with these cartridges in their youth and would be willing to sell me a nice used set(s). I also plan to post a WTB in the PX later today.
• These are my first true wildcats. Not ideal cartridges to start learning on, but fate has forced my hand here. I understand I need to be careful in load development, and methodical in my brass fireforming. Any experience-based tips on forming new brass and any good load data (no disclaimer necessary, I understand I need to work up to appropriate loads) would be appreciated.
• Opinions on parent brass for forming the .240G? I’m thinking Norma .25-06, or Lapua .30-06. Probably Norma to hopefully reduce my resizing efforts. I guess I also need to invest in an annealer…something I’ve avoided until now.

I’m really looking forward to turning a coyote or two inside out with the .240 Gibbs once I locate a suitable optic. From looking at some online load data, it appears the 75gr VMax should be moving 3,600+ fps.

 

[iceng]

You can size without annealing, if you go gently. Annealing helps to reduce neck splits if you go UP, however if you squish shoulder back, you often crush and wrinkle it.

My suggestion is to anneal, neck up, run through sizing die, then load and fire. If you neck DOWN (30-06) you will most likely get donuts and require neck turning / reaming. So try 25-06 and you will probably get away without that.

You DONT need anywhere near max load to fire form brass, 75% power works fine. You want a full case, so often slower burning powder but more of it helps. You always want 95+% case fill.

Good luck.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I have an old book of wildcat guys. I’ll look and see if there is any info on Gibbs for you if you want.

 

[Anb618]

I have an old book of wildcat guys. I’ll look and see if there is any info on Gibbs for you if you want.

Anything you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I found a CD-ROM containing some info on Gibbs Cartridges for $20 on Amazon. Description says it includes case prep information. Gonna grab that as well.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

More later. Totally cool Rifles!

Wow!!!

Sirhr

 

[Average guy]

The Bausch and Lomb mounts are best used with the original B&L scopes. They have no turrets on them as the windage and elevation is handled in the mounts.

 

[cas6969]

I dunno... he's talking about wildcats but showing boxes of loaded factory ammo.


Cool stuff.

 

[Anb618]

I dunno... he's talking about wildcats but showing boxes of loaded factory ammo.


Cool stuff.

Baby steps for the wildcat newbie.

 

[Modoc]

I dunno... he's talking about wildcats but showing boxes of loaded factory ammo.


Cool stuff.

Those look like a small reloading outfit producing ammo to me. There are/were some commercial custom reloaders out there.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I dunno... he's talking about wildcats but showing boxes of loaded factory ammo.


Cool stuff.

I don't know if Qual Cart makes loaded rounds. But they still make some of the best small lot wildcat brass out there.

Those rifles are gorgeous. Both cartridges are smoking hot. That 240 Gibbs could put a light bullet at 4300 FPS. Probably only 'some' barrel life! But what a hole puncher. It was one of the cool 6mm offerings that was really 'out there' in the 1960's. And still would be a competitive cartridge today... though I think barrel life and brass availability are an issue. And other cartridges caught on.

The 270 Gibbs is another cool one. Basically Rocky Gibbs saying "Let's take a really fast 270 and make it go even faster by stuffing more powder in a case!

These rifles and cartridges are truly from the golden age of the wildcat. 1950's and 60's. The 'style' of the gun says late '50's early 60's to me. Kuharsky Bros. were popular with the Camp Perry and early benchrest folks. Not so much hunting optics. Not that you couldn't.


Brass... try Qual Cart. You may have to wait until they do a 'run'. And they often limit sales (100 to a customer or similar) but their brass is excellent. Bullets for both no problem.

Dies... I have some places you can go. I have to check my die shelf for the names of folks who do some oddball stuff. Odds of finding one in the PX are about 'nil. But you never know! You'll probably have to get a custom set. That said... I would buy these as fast as you can hit "Buy it Now." If I were Eliteuas, I'd buy them and then sell them to you for $475. But we're better than that here in Vintage!

N.O.S. CH 270 GIBBS DIE SET RELOADING DIES .270 WILDCAT | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for N.O.S. CH 270 GIBBS DIE SET RELOADING DIES .270 WILDCAT at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

BTW, I would not go to the trouble of forming either case. You can buy brass for both from Qual Cart. Or buy some loaded rounds to test out and then you'll have plenty of brass. But forming is really a lot of work. Like a lot. If you can buy, you are ahead!

Load data may be tougher. But there are probably a small number of dedicated crazies loading for them. And there are powders out there that Ackley and Gibbs didn't have access to when they were playing Magician with wildcats.

To your question about optics... they are all over eBay. Awesome and often cheap, because noone has the mounts like you do. @buffalowinter has a lot of good knowledge on some of these optics. Watch for furry/dirty inside lenses and for fungus. But most of the time those old scopes are crystal clear and dead nuts. But with a lack of modern coatings, don't do as well at dawn or dusk or in bad light. But you can find some amazing optics. Don't take those Erie mounts off. They are awesome.

I'd love to know more about who built the rifles. That Mauser is stunning and the Mod70... even though modified is Hubba Hubba.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[cas6969]

I didn’t / don’t know either, but it’s got a bullet weight on the box so I figured they must. Good to know.

A few of my Wildcats aren’t Wildcats anymore.
But I’m gaining on the other end, factory turning into “obsolete”.

 

[Anb618]

Those look like a small reloading outfit producing ammo to me. There are/were some commercial custom reloaders out there.

Apparently Quality Cartridge used to offer custom loaded wildcat ammunition, but not anymore.

Loaded Ammunition

I don't know if Qual Cart makes loaded rounds. But they still make some of the best small lot wildcat brass out there.

Those rifles are gorgeous. Both cartridges are smoking hot. That 240 Gibbs could put a light bullet at 4300 FPS. Probably only 'some' barrel life! But what a hole puncher. It was one of the cool 6mm offerings that was really 'out there' in the 1960's. And still would be a competitive cartridge today... though I think barrel life and brass availability are an issue. And other cartridges caught on.

The 270 Gibbs is another cool one. Basically Rocky Gibbs saying "Let's take a really fast 270 and make it go even faster by stuffing more powder in a case!

These rifles and cartridges are truly from the golden age of the wildcat. 1950's and 60's. The 'style' of the gun says late '50's early 60's to me. Kuharsky Bros. were popular with the Camp Perry and early benchrest folks. Not so much hunting optics. Not that you couldn't.


Brass... try Qual Cart. You may have to wait until they do a 'run'. And they often limit sales (100 to a customer or similar) but their brass is excellent. Bullets for both no problem.

Dies... I have some places you can go. I have to check my die shelf for the names of folks who do some oddball stuff. Odds of finding one in the PX are about 'nil. But you never know! You'll probably have to get a custom set. That said... I would buy these as fast as you can hit "Buy it Now." If I were Eliteuas, I'd buy them and then sell them to you for $475. But we're better than that here in Vintage!

N.O.S. CH 270 GIBBS DIE SET RELOADING DIES .270 WILDCAT | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for N.O.S. CH 270 GIBBS DIE SET RELOADING DIES .270 WILDCAT at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

BTW, I would not go to the trouble of forming either case. You can buy brass for both from Qual Cart. Or buy some loaded rounds to test out and then you'll have plenty of brass. But forming is really a lot of work. Like a lot. If you can buy, you are ahead!

Load data may be tougher. But there are probably a small number of dedicated crazies loading for them. And there are powders out there that Ackley and Gibbs didn't have access to when they were playing Magician with wildcats.

To your question about optics... they are all over eBay. Awesome and often cheap, because noone has the mounts like you do. @buffalowinter has a lot of good knowledge on some of these optics. Watch for furry/dirty inside lenses and for fungus. But most of the time those old scopes are crystal clear and dead nuts. But with a lack of modern coatings, don't do as well at dawn or dusk or in bad light. But you can find some amazing optics. Don't take those Erie mounts off. They are awesome.

I'd love to know more about who built the rifles. That Mauser is stunning and the Mod70... even though modified is Hubba Hubba.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Agreed about these being barrel burners. It also looks like my memory was mistaken about the speed on those 75gr VMax. Online load data is showing a 75gr bullet could be +3,800fps. I would imagine QC didn’t push the loads that hot though in their ammo…

I’m gonna try to call Quality Cartridge soon and see how many pieces of brass they would need to start an order. Hopefully someone else out there already has a backorder submitted and is waiting for me to place my order. Website says they tool up to produce brass once a certain quantity of .240G or .270G is backordered.

Thanks for the heads up on those dies. I gave an offer price. If it was the .240, I’d have just Buy It Now’d, but since I don’t have good brass for the .270 yet I figured it was worth the risk to save some cash (probably not much demand for these dies either). Seller agreed to my price and they’ll be on the way tomorrow!

I’ve been checking eBay looking for a nice B&L Balvar, or a vintage Kahles, Hensoldt, or Zeiss. Lots of 4x fixed optics seem to be available, not much in the vein of higher magnification. I’m making an assumption it would be best with these vintage scopes to stay very low power fixed, or would a 2-8x B&L possibly be decent optical quality? Obviously I’m not expecting ZCO clarity but hopefully it wouldn’t leave me feeling like I wasted my money. Looking forward to some possible input from buffalowinter on optics.

Does anyone have any idea if the Kuharsky Bros and B&L mounts were all (respectively, per company) the same optic ring setup across all their models? In other words, are the windage/elevation adjustable crossbeams on the mounts all in the same location/spacing, and any ring insert from each respective manufacturer would fit any mount from the same manufacturer? For example, could I buy a Kuharsky mount/rings originally produced for a Sako rifle’s spacing, toss the mount into a drawer or resell it, and use just the ring insert on my Kuharsky Mauser mount? Same idea for the B&L? It seems it would make sense from a production logistics/manufacturing cost standpoint.

I also wish I could find out more history on the builder of these rifles, but I’m pretty sure I’ve gotten all I’m going to from the family. They’re both gorgeous rifles and I’m happy to have the opportunity to mess with them.

 

[Foul Mike]

The Mauser looks to me to be a commercial action, not a military action.

 

[Anb618]

The Mauser looks to me to be a commercial action, not a military action.

Could be. As I said, I have very little knowledge on these actions. I was able to verify it’s a Mauser/clone based on a guess and a few subsequent Google image searches. If you can provide more specifics, don’t be shy!

 

[Foul Mike]

On the left side of military actions there is an area that is cut down where the shooters thumb could go down farther when reloading using a stripper clip. That cutout is absent in commercial actions but present on military actions. Also German military rifles had every piece numbered with the whole serial number on the larger parts such as the action and barrel and the last 2 numbers of the rifles number on all smaller pieces down to and including the action screws. The Germans were anal about it and a matched number rifle is worth much more than a mis-match but I digress.
There should be some stamped info on it somewhere that might tell you something.
I am no expert but would guess the action to be made by FN in Belgium. Fine actions and many rifles built in that era by many smiths used them on their better builds. Many rifles were built using military actions also as at that time they were very plentiful and didn't cost as much.
I would not call that rifle sporterized, to me it is a custom build and a fine one at that. Sporterized is a military rifle that is restocked with a regular stock and sometimes rebarreled to a different round and was very popular and common to do back in those days as Mil.Surp rifles were available everywhere and cheap.
Sporterized rifles are worth very little as compared to if they had been left original but it was the thing to do back then.
@sirhrmechanic and @buffalowinter know much more about them than I do.
Both are beautiful rifles and look to be in fine shape.
When you get them set up and shooting let us know what you ended up with and how they shoot.
Were it me I would look until I found the right scopes and mounts. Worth much more that way.

 

[Average guy]

On the left side of military actions there is an area that is cut down where the shooters thumb could go down farther when reloading using a stripper clip. That cutout is absent in commercial actions but present on military actions. Also German military rifles had every piece numbered with the whole serial number on the larger parts such as the action and barrel and the last 2 numbers of the rifles number on all smaller pieces down to and including the action screws. The Germans were anal about it and a matched number rifle is worth much more than a mis-match but I digress.
There should be some stamped info on it somewhere that might tell you something.
I am no expert but would guess the action to be made by FN in Belgium. Fine actions and many rifles built in that era by many smiths used them on their better builds. Many rifles were built using military actions also as at that time they were very plentiful and didn't cost as much.
I would not call that rifle sporterized, to me it is a custom build and a fine one at that. Sporterized is a military rifle that is restocked with a regular stock and sometimes rebarreled to a different round and was very popular and common to do back in those days as Mil.Surp rifles were available everywhere and cheap.
Sporterized rifles are worth very little as compared to if they had been left original but it was the thing to do back then.
@sirhrmechanic and @buffalowinter know much more about them than I do.
Both are beautiful rifles and look to be in fine shape.
When you get them set up and shooting let us know what you ended up with and how they shoot.
Were it me I would look until I found the right scopes and mounts. Worth much more that way.

100 percent a commercial action.

 

[Anb618]

So I found the answer to my question about mount/ring compatibility. It appears there are two styles of ring assemblies (plunger style and thumbscrew style), both produced by B&L, and they’re both a universal fit for all B&L and Kuharsky mounts. I also found this graphic on an eBay listing which was helpful.

 

[Keeper22]

Very cool, those are heirloom rifles to passed down and admired. Glad they got a good custodian, that appreciates them and wants to shoot them. Thanks for sharing.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

So I found the answer to my question about mount/ring compatibility. It appears there are two styles of ring assemblies (plunger style and thumbscrew style), both produced by B&L, and they’re both a universal fit for all B&L and Kuharsky mounts. I also found this graphic on an eBay listing which was helpful.
View attachment 8050593

Those old shooters bibles from the ‘60’s and ‘70’s are goldmines!!!

Sirhr

 

[Anb618]

I’m going to keep adding information on these rifles/accessories as I find it and to detail my journey in getting them, at minimum, back to a shooting range. My gun club has a 300yd vintage shoot once in a while, and these would be a blast to take out there.

Winchester’s website has a .pdf reference for manufacturing S/N date codes and, with a S/N between 101680 and 131580, I determined that my Model 70 would have been manufactured in 1949.

Amazing it’s in such beautiful shape for being nearly 75 years old.

 

[TorF]

If the 270 Gibbs barrel is worn out I would seriously consider having the replacement barrel made of a SIG blank. That should give at least 14000 rounds barrellife in a bolt action..

 

[Anb618]

Anyone know if it was common to bed these old rifles into the stocks permanently?

Tonight I tried to pull the barreled action out of the .270G but the rear of the action refuses to separate from the stock. I gave it a cursory “good enough” cleaning for now and figured I’d mess with it more later.

Then I tried to pull the action on the .240G. The rear action screw came out just fine, but the forward screw was a tough cookie. I messed with it for 10 minutes, worrying I was going to strip the head. I decided to pool a little CLP on the bolt head and let it soak about 10 minutes, grabbed my Wheeler Fat Wrench to have something more substantial to grip, and tried to get it broke loose. I set it to 60 in/lb so that I wouldn’t go too ham-fisted, and the result…

Obviously, I have my concerns about going any further…

 

[Foul Mike]

Glassbedding was a common practice in those days but a release agent was usually applied to all metal parts that contacted the bedding so they could be taken apart. Some of that bedding could have gotten on the threads of that screw. Gently applying some heat to that screw head may let it release. I have used a soldering iron on some with some success but have a very small torch that I have had better luck with, however, you have to be very careful doing that so you don't damage the finish and that screw is long so it takes a while to warm it up down to the threads. That is the shorter of the 2 screws I think and there is some metal around it so the tiny flame of that torch would probably be your best bet, directing the flame toward the rear.
Take a crisp piece of paper or new crisp dollar bill and put it around the barrel just ahead of the front of the stock and see if you can slide it down between the barrel and the stock. If it won't go look along the juncture of the barrel and the stock to see if you can see any traces of the bedding there.
On the 270, with the screws out, will the front of the barrel lift up far enough that you can see under it to see if there is bedding there?

 

[roostercogburn98]

My books didn’t have anything to add to your search, sorry.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Glassbedding was a common practice in those days but a release agent was usually applied to all metal parts that contacted the bedding so they could be taken apart. Some of that bedding could have gotten on the threads of that screw. Gently applying some heat to that screw head may let it release. I have used a soldering iron on some with some success but have a very small torch that I have had better luck with, however, you have to be very careful doing that so you don't damage the finish and that screw is long so it takes a while to warm it up down to the threads. That is the shorter of the 2 screws I think and there is some metal around it so the tiny flame of that torch would probably be your best bet, directing the flame toward the rear.
Take a crisp piece of paper or new crisp dollar bill and put it around the barrel just ahead of the front of the stock and see if you can slide it down between the barrel and the stock. If it won't go look along the juncture of the barrel and the stock to see if you can see any traces of the bedding there.
On the 270, with the screws out, will the front of the barrel lift up far enough that you can see under it to see if there is bedding there?

All good advice that Foul Mike is giving you, OP.

One thing you can try is tapping on the screwdriver while you turn it... And putting penetrating oil (PB Blaster or simiar) on the screw and threads (just a drop... don't soak the stock) for a couple of days can't hurt.

Back to your question... it was common to glass bed. But all the gun parts would be coated with release agent and there is no way a screw got fiberglassed in. Because if it got stuck, they'd have had to whittle the stock off. Can't dismantle that gun to finish if the screw is stuck. So maybe someone went all "Red Loctite" with it at some point... but it's not epoxy or resin bedding compound.

Those two rifles were clearly done by folks who knew what they were doing... So I'd not expect any mistakes. Only things seized up by time.

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS. Have you tried hollow grinding a special screwdriver for the job? You may be able to get it off that way. Never use anything but Hollow-Ground on gun screws.

 

[6/250/40]

Beautiful rifles, made better (IMO) by the chamberings... The .240 bolt shroud and release look very VZ-24... Czech commercial Mauser action, I believe... My .02...

 

[Halfnutz]

PS. Have you tried hollow grinding a special screwdriver for the job? You may be able to get it off that way. Never use anything but Hollow-Ground on gun screws.

GRACE USA Original Gun Care Screwdriver Set > Woodworking | Grace USA

I think they will custom grind for a small fee.

Kroil applied SLOWLY with a syringe right around the screw head. Let it seep overnight.

 

[loboman7x57]

Vintage Gun Scopes

Vintage Weaver, Redfield and other Vintage Rifle Scopes, Guns, scope rings and mounts for sale.

www.vintagegunscopes.com

Nice rifles

 

[Anb618]

Vintage Gun Scopes

Vintage Weaver, Redfield and other Vintage Rifle Scopes, Guns, scope rings and mounts for sale.

www.vintagegunscopes.com

Nice rifles

Well I’ll be damned. A refurbished unit for $300 in “very good” condition sure beats an unknown condition eBay purchase. From the last week, any ok looking BalVar8’s are going for are going for $125-150. Thanks for the link!

 

[Anb618]

Well over the past year I’ve bid on a few optics and mounts for these rifles on eBay, but kept jumping ship based on prices. Not that they’re super expensive, but an unknown quality optic with unknown clarity level was not worth $100+ to me. This week my search was finally fruitful. I snagged a BalVar8 2.5-8x optic in what turned out to be very good shape + B&L mount for just $69 shipped. Optic and mount are both in excellent shape with only a few small nicks, and the glass just needed a simple cleaning to remove some dust. After cleaning, I’m very impressed with the optical quality for how old the scope is.

Unfortunately, I missed a .240G die set a few weeks ago. My eBay watchlist sent me an email, but I had a busy week and didn’t see the notification until the listing was closed/had already been purchased. Apparently at least one other soul out there is trying to feed his inner-Ricky Bobby.

There is currently a .25 Gibbs, 6.5 Gibbs, and .30 Gibbs set all available on eBay. Just gotta wait it out I guess…