Type-s FL die runout - Help, what am I doing wrong?

[hkfan45]

308 Bisley match chamber (.342 neck). Lapua brass, neck turned to 0.0136. Brass comes out of chamber with <0.001 runout. I do a 2 step sizing process to attempt to avoid runout. First step is with 339 TI bushing. Check runout after sizing, 0.001 or better. Next, use 335 bushing. Check runout after sizing, now 0.003-0.005. What gives? I've tried this also with a 334 bushing with same result. NOTE: I am putting bushings in number side UP, tightening stem, and then backing off 1/4 turn per instructions.

Here's what is bizarre. I have a Redding FL non-bushing die. I take a piece of fired brass and size with the non-bushing die with no intermediate step-downs. This oversizes neck down to .329, BUT runout is fantastic at <0.001. Why is this? Why is my type-S die causing runout w/ 334 and 335 bushings, but a FL non-bushing die not?

 

[gigamortis]

I have fought the same issue with my Type S FL Bushing die. I have even tried the two step neck down as you did with barely noticeable improvement. I finally said the hell with it and went to the Lee Collet die. Less than .001 neck runout on every case now and I don't have to mess with any neck lubes anymore. I now just use my Type S die without the bushing as just a body die now.

 

[InfScout1/69]

New brass? How many firings? Annealed?

 

[hkfan45]

Brass has 4 firings. Not annealed.

Why is it that after the first step from 342 to 339, the case has virtually no runout, but from 339-335, it induces runout of >.003??

Should I just get a Forster custom honed FL die and forget these darn bushings?

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Brass has 4 firings. Not annealed.

Why is it that after the first step from 342 to 339, the case has virtually no runout, but from 339-335, it induces runout of >.003??

Should I just get a Forster custom honed FL die and forget these darn bushings?

That is what I am doing.

 

[ZiaHunter]

Bushing size stamp goes face down in the die and don't use the expander. Try using the .334 bushing alone and not sizing the neck in steps which may be the source of the problem.

 

[dariof]

The exact same thing is happening to me. I use my bushing would be numbers facing down, and the expander removed. Yet the run out is about. 003.

With my Dillon dies and no bushing, runout is .001.

I am also stumped.

 

[hkfan45]

Bushing size stamp goes face down in the die and don't use the expander. Try using the .334 bushing alone and not sizing the neck in steps which may be the source of the problem.

I've tried this, but unfortunately it's very inconsistent. Sometimes, I get runout as low as 0.0015, but on other cases (all neck turned) the runout is >0.004. The FL non-bushing die is always consistently <0.001.

Does anyone have experience with Forster honed dies?

 

[Victor N TN]

Loosen the top of the die so the bushing "floats". If you torque it down it can be off center. Let the bushing go to the case. Not the other way around.

 

[SWThomas]

Bushing size stamp goes face down in the die and don't use the expander. Try using the .334 bushing alone and not sizing the neck in steps which may be the source of the problem.

Why does numbers down matter? The bevel is the same on both sides of the bushing.

 

[hkfan45]

Loosen the top of the die so the bushing "floats". If you torque it down it can be off center. Let the bushing go to the case. Not the other way around.

I've already loosened it a 1/4 turn. Is more needed?

 

[J-ROD]

Numbers up sometimes puts the bushing at a slight angle which is why numbers down works better for some people, depends on depth of stamping.
I have tried every which way to get my type s dies to work, multiple steps (.005" per step max) is better but still yields runout more times than I'd like.
Back to back comparison, type s lost to Lee.
Seriously, don't let the cheap price deter you, try it. I now use my type s w/o bushing to fl and bump shoulder back after neck sizing.
More food for thought...I get more runout with type s and SS cleaning versus corn media vibrator....cause is flared case mouths bending neck upon entering bushings.

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[Victor N TN]

I've already loosened it a 1/4 turn. Is more needed?

Not if you can shake the die and hear it move around.

 

[hkfan45]

Not if you can shake the die and hear it move around.

Yeah, that's where I have it set now and runout is terrible.

What about using the FL non-bushing die and the using a sinclair expander mandrel to open the neck and set tension? Anyone try?

 

[gigamortis]

Back to back comparison, type s lost to Lee.
Seriously, don't let the cheap price deter you, try it. I now use my type s w/o bushing to fl and bump shoulder back after neck sizing.

+1 on this. Here's a video showing the Lee Collet die in action: Comparison of the Lee Collet neck die and the Hornady neck die - YouTube

 

[hkfan45]

Using a Lee die on my carefully turned lapua brass just feels weird. Am I wrong?

 

[dariof]

Using a Lee die on my carefully turned lapua brass just feels weird. Am I wrong?

Yes.

 

[MajorHeadTrauma]

Loosen the top of the die so the bushing "floats". If you torque it down it can be off center. Let the bushing go to the case. Not the other way around.

This is solid advice. As others said, numbers down and float the bushing. The bushing must float. Just tighten it down and back off a 1/16th or 1/8th of a turn. .004 is too large of a final step. .004 works possibly as a first step, but as you approach your final desired neck diameter, use .002 steps or .001 steps.

What kind of press are you using?


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[Lumpy Grits]

2 wraps of scotch tape around the bushing will give a snug fit in the die body.
Tighten the top plug, tight.
Anneal your case mouths.
LG

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Ya know,,it seems to me that by the time I bought the die and five bushings, I had quite a bit of money tied up for sub standard results.
I tried numbers up, down, loose, tight, with/without expander ball. Even tried tightening the bushing with the case in place. No Joy.
I have not tried the mandrel method yet, and don't know if I will.

It seems to me that the combination of neck turning and a honed die will give the most consistent and accurate results with the least working of the case.
Anyway, that is what I am trying now. I'll let y'all know how it works when I get my die back from Forster, and if that doesn't work out well I guess the next step is a custom die for my rifle, which will probably be the most cost efficient way to go and what I probably should have done to begin with.

 

[hkfan45]

This is solid advice. As others said, numbers down and float the bushing. The bushing must float. Just tighten it down and back off a 1/16th or 1/8th of a turn. .004 is too large of a final step. .004 works possibly as a first step, but as you approach your final desired neck diameter, use .002 steps or .001 steps.

What kind of press are you using?

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I am using a CO-AX. What doesn't make sense to me is why the FL non-bushing die, which takes the neck from .342 to .329 in one step does not result in any runout. What is it about the bushings that require very small steps?

 

[longebow]

For what's worth, I have started using a 1 inch rubber "O-ring" purchased in bulk from Home Depot/Lowes, and place it between the die locking ring and the press. It allows the die to "float" and center on the ram/case. This has helped to reduce my run out on all of my dies.

 

[QuietShootr]

Funny, I've been fighting the same issue for a long time. It never really occurred to me that this was something the die itself might be causing.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

For what's worth, I have started using a 1 inch rubber "O-ring" purchased in bulk from Home Depot/Lowes, and place it between the die locking ring and the press. It allows the die to "float" and center on the ram/case. This has helped to reduce my run out on all of my dies.

OP is using a CO-AX...

 

[Victor N TN]

Have you tried calling Redding? They'll help you figure out what's what. And if something is wrong with the die, they'll fix it free.

 

[hkfan45]

2 wraps of scotch tape around the bushing will give a snug fit in the die body.
Tighten the top plug, tight.
Anneal your case mouths.
LG

So, don't float the bushings?

 

[Lumpy Grits]

So, don't float the bushings?

I don't-
I get much less runout do'n it, the way I listed.
LG

 

[hkfan45]

I don't-
I get much less runout do'n it, the way I listed.
LG

So, I tried the scotch tape method, tightened the bushing down. Runout seems a bit improved w/ avg about 0.0025. However, if I put those same cases back into the FL non-bushing, it returns runout to an avg of <0.001 and some with almost no runout <0.0005.

I think I am going to try a honed Forster die if I can find one.

 

[Lumpy Grits]

So, I tried the scotch tape method, tightened the bushing down. Runout seems a bit improved w/ avg about 0.0025. However, if I put those same cases back into the FL non-bushing, it returns runout to an avg of <0.001 and some with almost no runout <0.0005.

I think I am going to try a honed Forster die if I can find one.

Loose'n the plug 1/4 turn on the bush'n die and run the .001 case up into the die-While the case is in the die-Tighten the plug down with pliers.
Any better on runout?
It maybe a issue with the die's body then-Call Redding.
The issue with the 'honed' die is your limited to the brass you can run.
Good luck

 

[dariof]

Ya know,,it seems to me that by the time I bought the die and five bushings, I had quite a bit of money tied up for sub standard results.
I tried numbers up, down, loose, tight, with/without expander ball. Even tried tightening the bushing with the case in place. No Joy.
I have not tried the mandrel method yet, and don't know if I will.

It seems to me that the combination of neck turning and a honed die will give the most consistent and accurate results with the least working of the case.
Anyway, that is what I am trying now. I'll let y'all know how it works when I get my die back from Forster, and if that doesn't work out well I guess the next step is a custom die for my rifle, which will probably be the most cost efficient way to go and what I probably should have done to begin with.

I feel the exact same way. With all the money spent for bushings and the die, the results are sub-standard.

Here is what I have done to try and get better concentricity using the Redding S die and bushing (the concentricity was usually .001 after firing, then after the die the concentricity was worst).

1. Examined my reloader. Thinking the parts were worn out, Dillon replaced (for free) all the cams in the machine. This did not help.
2. Borrowed my neighbors single stage RCBS Rock Chucker press, thinking a single stage press had more of a center axis. This did not help.
3. Tried using the bushings with numbers side up, then down. This did not help.
4. Tried altering the die pressure on the bushing (instructions say all the way down then turn back to allow the bushing too float). This did not help.
5. Changed lubes from Dillon to Imperial Wax. This did not help. Cost $7.00
6. Placed an O-Ring under the FL die so the die "floats." This did not help. Cost $2.00
7. Thoroughly cleaned the inside and outside of the brass (SS Media Tumbler) before using the S die. This did not help.
8. My buddy, who has the same set-up exactly, tried annealing. This did not help. Cost my buddy $50.00 for the annealer, but he made his own.
9. Called Redding. I was trying everything they said and some of what I did they suggested. This did not help.
10. Turned the necks. This did not help.....maybe a tad (.001 better or so, but still didn't do much). Cost me $200 for the K & M tool.
11. Reamed the inside of the necks. This did not help......maybe a tad (.001 better or so, but still didn't do much). Cost my buddy $200 for this set-up.
12. Took out the expander ball. .....This did not help.
13. Purchased a Redding carbide expander ball and replaced the steel expander ball that comes with the die. This did not help. Cost me $35.00.
14. Purchased Lapua brass. While the concentricity was near perfect after firing, once the Redding die got to the brass, the concentricity was again worst.

Now, I am on my last attempt. I purchased a Lee Collett Neck Sizing die. Others have said this has worked. I'll find out tomorrow, but it's another $30.00 chasing this concentricity with this Redding die.

If the Lee works, I'll use the Redding die without the bushings for shoulder bump only when needed (every 3-4 firings), and use the Lee die after each firing for neck tension only.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

I don't know how you might incorporate your various procedures with my solution? But, let's say that CoAx costs upwards of $200 and the S type dies are (what) $100? plus five different bushings that depending on titanium, maybe another $150. And, my math could be way off?

My point is that I use Wilson bushing neck sizers and chamber type seating dies, maybe under a hundred bucks plus less than a hundred bucks for an arbor press. You might have to turn your necks, but runout ceases to be a problem. BB

 

[J-ROD]

After using the type s, I am now convinced that allowing the neck to not be concentric with the body is a horrible idea...that is the definition of runout basically. A non-bushing fl sizer works so well because if the machining is done correctly, the brass will be as straight as possible.... Honing the neck to match your brass/chamber is the key.
Try the collet and post back. I size once, hold for a few sec, raise ram just enough to spin case a little and hit/hold again. I find this brings neck tension to a much more consistent level...which was my only issue with the collet.

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[itwillis]

Are you measuring the runout after sizing the neck and before seating the bullet? In a lot of cases that .003 of runout will disappear after seating (I'm using the Redding competition seater).

 

[gigamortis]

Try the collet and post back. I size once, hold for a few sec, raise ram just enough to spin case a little and hit/hold again. I find this brings neck tension to a much more consistent level...which was my only issue with the collet.

This is what I do with my Collet die. Hit it once, hold for a second or two. Let go, rotate case approximately 45 degrees, and hit it again.

 

[Clark]

I have (7) 223 dies that I can size with. The most run out is with the Redding FL "S" die, and the least is with the Lee Collet Neck die.
But they are all good enough.

Because it is small amounts of run out compared to the damage a sizer ball can do if it changes the neck while pulling out.

And when the bushing is locked in place off center... that is not good either.

 

[Charlie Papa]

...Does anyone have experience with Forster honed dies?

Yes, and I've been very happy with them. I'm still using the expander (which they put just below the neck, so they have a very different feel to them) but am going to experiment without it. Runout on not-so-special Winchester 243 brass that's not neck turned has been .001-.0015", haven't sized any Lapua brass yet. Another nice thing is that it sizes all the way to the shoulder junction. If you can't find the die anywhere, call Forster and they should be able to sell you one. It will likely be more expensive, but still cheaper than the Redding!

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Forster will hone your die to whatever size you want, cheap compared to bushings.

"Yes, and I've been very happy with them. I'm still using the expander (which they put just below the neck, so they have a very different feel to them) but am going to experiment without it. Runout on not-so-special Winchester 243 brass that's not neck turned has been .001-.0015", haven't sized any Lapua brass yet. Another nice thing is that it sizes all the way to the shoulder junction. If you can't find the die anywhere, call Forster and they should be able to sell you one. It will likely be more expensive, but still cheaper than the Redding!"

How can ya hate it??

 

[former naval person]

Forster hones $16.00 including return mail. Me...I've tried all sorts. Best...Lee collet, then body sizing die to bump shoulder if necessary.

 

[hkfan45]

anyone running a lee collet w/ neck turned brass?

 

[justinbaker]

Having same problem with my creedmoor.

Unfortunately Lee does not make a collet for the creedmoor

 

[gstaylorg]

Yeah, that's where I have it set now and runout is terrible.

What about using the FL non-bushing die and the using a sinclair expander mandrel to open the neck and set tension? Anyone try?

I use the Sinclair [oversized] expander mandrel to open up the necks, followed by the type FL sizing dies for both .223 and .308. The main reason for the expander mandrel is if your ejector spring is strong enough to flatten one side of the neck slightly upon ejection, or if you're using virgin brass straight out of the box and want to get the neck tension slightly more consistent. Otherwise, the mandrel isn't wide enough to do much on fired necks. My .308 chambers are very close (although not identical) to the Bisley (.342 nk, 1deg30, .085 FB).

First off, I do not see any reason why you should be resizing in two steps. The .342 was meant to be a no-turn neck chamber and your final loads in Lapua brass should be very close to 0.338" with seated bullets using un-turned brass. If you use a .337" bushing, it should give you pretty close to .0015" nk tension, the .336" bushing about .0025" nk tension. I use the .337 bushing and typically see runout in the .0005" to .0015" range without having to do anything I would consider to be exceptionally tricky or extreme. With a no-turn neck chamber and un-turned Lapua brass, you should only need to FL resize with either of those two bushings in a single step. Also, you probably want to be annealing after every firing, particularly if you're working the brass that much by using two separate resizing steps.

Because you already turned the necks, the .335 bushing may be the correct one for your brass, but did you actually measure the fired necks before resizing? In that chamber, they should be coming out around 0.3410" - .3415". If you anneal after every firing, the brass will be very malleable and using the .335 bushing in a single step shouldn't be an issue. Have you tried re-sizing in a single step with that bushing? That alone may well solve your problem. Also, having 2 -3 thousands runout shouldn't be an issue. Having 5 thousandths is certainly not optimal, but unless you can really see a noticeable difference on the target, I probably wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

FWIW - I have a couple .308s with that same chambering that shoot FGMM 175 factory ammo extremely well out to 600+ yd. Performance falls off dramatically at 1000 yd if there is much wind, but that's a bullet BC/MV issue. In any event, you should see how much runout you'll find in commercial match ammo. I can assure you that your load numbers will seem small by comparison. Yet it still shoots extremely well out of a .342 nk chamber.

 

[hkfan45]

I use the Sinclair [oversized] expander mandrel to open up the necks, followed by the type FL sizing dies for both .223 and .308. The main reason for the expander mandrel is if your ejector spring is strong enough to flatten one side of the neck slightly upon ejection, or if you're using virgin brass straight out of the box and want to get the neck tension slightly more consistent. Otherwise, the mandrel isn't wide enough to do much on fired necks. My .308 chambers are very close (although not identical) to the Bisley (.342 nk, 1deg30, .085 FB).

First off, I do not see any reason why you should be resizing in two steps. The .342 was meant to be a no-turn neck chamber and your final loads in Lapua brass should be very close to 0.338" with seated bullets using un-turned brass. If you use a .337" bushing, it should give you pretty close to .0015" nk tension, the .336" bushing about .0025" nk tension. I use the .337 bushing and typically see runout in the .0005" to .0015" range without having to do anything I would consider to be exceptionally tricky or extreme. With a no-turn neck chamber and un-turned Lapua brass, you should only need to FL resize with either of those two bushings in a single step. Also, you probably want to be annealing after every firing, particularly if you're working the brass that much by using two separate resizing steps.

Because you already turned the necks, the .335 bushing may be the correct one for your brass, but did you actually measure the fired necks before resizing? In that chamber, they should be coming out around 0.3410" - .3415". If you anneal after every firing, the brass will be very malleable and using the .335 bushing in a single step shouldn't be an issue. Have you tried re-sizing in a single step with that bushing? That alone may well solve your problem. Also, having 2 -3 thousands runout shouldn't be an issue. Having 5 thousandths is certainly not optimal, but unless you can really see a noticeable difference on the target, I probably wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

FWIW - I have a couple .308s with that same chambering that shoot FGMM 175 factory ammo extremely well out to 600+ yd. Performance falls off dramatically at 1000 yd if there is much wind, but that's a bullet BC/MV issue. In any event, you should see how much runout you'll find in commercial match ammo. I can assure you that your load numbers will seem small by comparison. Yet it still shoots extremely well out of a .342 nk chamber.

Thanks for the helpful advice. I have tried to resize using the 335 bushing in one step w/ the type-s die, but runout was twice to three times what the non-bushing die produced. I have tried the scotch tape method, but am planning on trying Lumpy Grit's suggestion to really tighten down the stem on the bushing.

I see you use the sinclair mandrel first and then use the type-s to set the tension. Have you ever used a non-bushing FL die and then use a mandrel to open up to set the tension?

 

[NFW]

i just got the type s die with the 334 bushing in there i followed the directions tighten down then back up a 16th of a turn maybe a little more, im getting .002 mostly have seen pleny of .001 and a could of .003. Might be your brass? Try calling Sinclair and see what they have to say. Hell one reason i went with redding was 100% satisfaction or money back. Im pretty satisfied. With that reloaded some last night still tweking loads, but pretty sure i found it this morning 2 one hole groups .5" circles with 178 amax out my AAC SD.

 

[gstaylorg]

The oversized expander mandrel is dead on 0.337" diameter for the .308, which matches what Sinclair states that they are .001" less than the bullet diameter. I don't mind using virgin brass that has been opened up with the mandrel and I can accept that most of it will have around .001" neck tension. It doesn't seem to make all that much difference during load development, particularly in the early stages. However, I would much prefer having .0015" to .002" neck tension in the final load with fired/resized brass. Tightening up the necks with a resizing die and then opening them up again to a size that gives insufficient neck tension doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. In my experience, necks on brass that have been FL resized are definitely more consistent than those simply opened up with the expander mandrel. My feeling is that opening up necks by pushing from the inside with a mandrel doesn't seem to give as reproducible results in terms of neck diameter as does the bushing in a resizing die, but I have only taken a limited number of measurements before reaching that conclusion, so the results may be different in someone else's hands.

One more question I would ask is did you remove the decapping pin, stem, and nut that came in the die? I decap by hand and therefore removed the entire assembly on my .308 die. It seems to work very well in that configuration. However, when I did that with the .223 dies, I found that the bushings didn't travel/resize very far down the neck toward the shoulder. I couldn't tighten the nuts on top of either of the .223 dies tight enough to force the bushings farther down the neck. In the end, I found it necessary to replace the recapping stems and nuts (which contact the bushing), just leaving off the decapping pins themselves. After that the dies and bushings work just fine. My point is that you might also want play around with the various combinations in your die (i.e. remove entire decapping assembly, remove just the decapping pin at the end) and see if it improves your results. I'm a little surprised that using the .335 bushing straight off gave unsatisfactory results. That almost makes me wonder whether there might be some issue with that specific bushing. In any event, you're likely dealing with an alignment problem of some sort. Otherwise it's difficult to explain the increased runout. Hopefully by playing around with the various things people have suggested that affect how the bushing seats and/or floats in the die, you'll find something that works for you. Good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Great posts! gstaylorg, I will definitely be trying some of those things with mine, however it occcurs to me that we really shouldn't have to invent all of these strange and wonderful techniques to get good results from these exquisitely expensive tools. Maybe they should be labeled "For Really Smart People Only".

O.P. thanks for bringing this up! I have learned some new things to try, but I'm still glad that Forster is working on my N.M. die.

 

[rockier]

This has been the most informing thread. I have been trying a lot these things and have not came up with the right method for me. Now I have some more things to try and I hope I get it right. Thanks to all that has been give there knowledge to us.

 

[hkfan45]

So, I received a full length Forster die (nonbushing) and planned to send it off to Forster to get it honed for 0.002 neck constriction/tension. Before sending it off, I was curious how it would compare to my Redding FL nonbushing die. I placed a fired neck turned case (<0.001 runout pre sizing). The Forster sized it down to .328. I measured runout at 0.002-0.0025. Compared with the Redding FL nonbushing die at 0.001 or under, this is surprising and disappointing. Has anyone experienced this w/ Forster dies? Does anyone think that a Forster custom honed job will correct this runout?

 

[Clark]

Years ago I would complain on forums that Forster's measurement of a honed neck was a "go" measurement and bushing measurements were "no go".

All in 0.001" increments.

Then a couple years back Forster announced that they would hone to half sizes.

That would be 0.0005" resolution.

 

[hkfan45]

Years ago I would complain on forums that Forster's measurement of a honed neck was a "go" measurement and bushing measurements were "no go".

All in 0.001" increments.

Then a couple years back Forster announced that they would hone to half sizes.

That would be 0.0005" resolution.

How is runout w/ the Forster honed dies?

 

[Clark]

Forster supposedly uses Hardinge collet lathes to hone out the sizer die necks. That would be the fast way to get low run out.

I have honed dies in the 4 jaw with shims. It is as hard or harder to set up than chambering a rifle. I prefer to pay Forster.

I sent my 6mmBR, 257RAI, 30-30, 308, 30-06, 8mm, and 338WM all at once to cut down on shipping.