Ultimate... Frustration? (What to do about my LaRue)

[DJL2]

My experience thus far summarized in one photo. To clarify, because I could barely feel my hands when I wrote the data down, here is what you see:
Top group: fired today, DDM4V1 (2009, Gen 1), 5.56x45mm, Aimpoint PRO, Guardian SS109 (knocked off “green tip”/M855)
Bottom two: fired last Saturday, LaRue UU on CMT lower, 6.5G, Viper PST 2 @ 20x, Hornady ELD-M

Both groups fired at 127m “milled” - the two inches on the LaRue target being as near to 4 MRAD through the scope as I can measure. It’s supposed to be the 150 yard line...it’s not, obviously. The 200 yard line on the same range (measuring across the yellow circle as 25.4 cm) comes out at 169 m. Clearly, I need to buy a range finder...and should never trust a “known” distance.

The “so what,” of course, is that factory “match” ammo, fired from a rifle with a much better trigger, using an optic set to 20x shouldn’t be printing a group equivalent to what a “mil spec” barrel/ammo/trigger produce using a red dot sight. I crunched the numbers from all the groups I fired with the UU last weekend and came up with a 1.20 MOA average. The UU does tend to throw the first round low left (as seen in these groups).

Honestly, I’m not much good at managing a consistent POA with an RDS when the dot just swims on a featureless black target - I’m holding the DDM4 back. The whole point, though, was to prove to myself I hadn’t somehow forgotten how to shoot a rifle. Those LaRue UU groups are, frankly, confidence shattering. Now my question is simple: what do I do about it? I don’t have a good answer yet.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

Have you tried any other ammo through the Grendel? The factory eld-m seems to be very hit or miss for many.

What type of scope mount? New or was it moved from something else?

 

[strike33]

My Larue Grendel is disappointment. I almost immediately had Craddock spin up a Bartlein 18'' barrel. That barrel is accurate but I can't get the rifle to function. Ive tried multiple gas blocks, the Larue BCG as fellas the JP BCG that the barrel was headspace to. Every time I take it out I get pissed.
I've tried, Hornady Black, The McCourt Custom, Federal Gold Medal and HSM. The HSM seems to work the best.

 

[GrandpaDeadLegs]

That's a lot of variables, none of which really scream "problem upper"

I experienced similar weirdness when I couldn't hit shit with a 25x scope and had no problem with a 4x because I had a ton more time behind the low power optic.

 

[DJL2]

Have you tried any other ammo through the Grendel? The factory eld-m seems to be very hit or miss for many.

What type of scope mount? New or was it moved from something else?

The Hornady SST groups so poorly my embarrassment prevents me from posting about it . I also bought a bunch of cheap ammo (which I regret, but might be fun to plink with). I placed an order for better stuff, spent a lot of time shooting other rifles waiting for it, then cancelled the order and went back to the range with the ELD-M. Generally bad luck finding ammo. Caveat emptor.

The mount is a LaRue. I have been pleased that it does return to zero - at least it did when I first set it up and tested it a bunch. Now I just leave it mounted. Mount was bought for this rifle/scope.

 

[AMP!]

I wouldn’t be happy either, especially at their price point. I built a 6.5 Grendel on an Aero receiver set with a Ballistic advantage barrel that was shooting .8-1.0 MOA. Using Hornady Black, at 14X through a Nightforce SHV. I put an EOTech on it with cheap Wolf steel case, and still got around 2” group at 100 yards.

No, sorry, I don’t have pics. I left the targets out and a storm took care of them.

 

[DJL2]

That's a lot of variables, none of which really scream "problem upper"

I experienced similar weirdness when I couldn't hit shit with a 25x scope and had no problem with a 4x because I had a ton more time behind the low power optic.

Concur - it’s not clear cut at all. Part of it is me, for sure. The rest...I can probably swallow the bill and buy some über expensive ammo to see what it does, but beyond that? This can get expensive quickly if I just throw money at component solutions. It’s not as if the rifle is unshootable. I would like to try some 7g loads.

@AMP! - that’s it. I know $1000 isn’t huge money for an AR, but we live in an age where someone will slap an MOA guarantee on a rifle you can get for less than 5 bills.

@strike33 - well, at least I can be happy it runs. Though if the way it beats the shit out of the case mouth is any indication, it’s over gassed.

 

[BANG...ping]

Hi DJ,
In all disclosure, I am not a gas gun guy. But two almost identical patterns suggests something to me. How long from the first shot to the last in each group? Could this be a barrel/heat issue? Maybe try 1 + minutes between shots? Just to see?

Bang

 

[DJL2]

Hi DJ,
In all disclosure, I am not a gas gun guy. But two almost identical patterns suggests something to me. How long from the first shot to the last in each group? Could this be a barrel/heat issue? Maybe try 1 + minutes between shots? Just to see?

Bang

Well...you got me there...I always joke that patience might be a virtue, but it’s not one of mine. I ought to start showing up with like five rifles and just rotate through them .

The group on the left is the worst ELD-M group I fired all day @ 2.211 inches (measured using my analog mic/cal set). The tightest was 1.614 inches - with the same 8 o’clock to 2 o’clock dispersion. The group on the right above is 1.639 inches. Those are all calculated by taking the edge to edge measurement and subtracting .264 inches.

The Hornady stuff clocks right around 2475 fps according to my Magnetospeed if it’s of interest.

 

[cleric]

So a couple of thoughts...

Have you checked the torques on all screws? Make sure nothing got loose.
Second check the hand guard to ensure there is no points of contact
What is your shooting set up? Are you useing bags? What is your trigger pull routine? Are you loading 6 rounds into the mag or just 5?
Do you have a suppressor?

If you take the lowest left shot out of the mix as you say it’s always the first then I think the rifle is performing well. Vertical dispersion would be less then 1 in and horizontal is sometimes a sign the shooter is pushing or pulling. Not sure what’s going on with the first round.

 

[DJL2]

So a couple of thoughts...

Have you checked the torques on all screws? Make sure nothing got loose.
Second check the hand guard to ensure there is no points of contact
What is your shooting set up? Are you useing bags? What is your trigger pull routine? Are you loading 6 rounds into the mag or just 5?
Do you have a suppressor?

If you take the lowest left shot out of the mix as you say it’s always the first then I think the rifle is performing well. Vertical dispersion would be less then 1 in and horizontal is sometimes a sign the shooter is pushing or pulling. Not sure what’s going on with the first round.

In this instance (accuracy), I shoot bagged. I build the position until I can keep the crosshairs steady. Then I grab my magazine (just five rounds loaded, two different mag brands), load the rifle (on safe, using the bolt release). I settle back in and rebuild the position. Once I’ve got the rifle settled on target, I take a slightly larger than normal breath, exhale naturally, maintain the sights on target once they settle (on exhale), and break the shot. I watch the crosshairs through the break - I can track the crosshairs, but usually the recoil is too stout for me to spot the shot/trace. No suppressor in use.

I could double check the barrel nut - that’s the only torqued part touching the barrel. The stealth hanguards, though derided by some, basically bolt up independently of the barrel - no contact there I can see.

 

[TheGerman]

But...but..they sent you 11 pocket constitutions and dildo dust!

Honestly, the #1 thing people still haven't figured with semis is that the accuracy expectation is somehow the same as with firing a bolt gun; yet the platform is inherently different.

The groups aern't horrible. When I shoot carbines (like your first picture) I basically make sure that I'm at/grouping around the center POA without any weirdness. After all, with a 16 or 11 inch 5.56, I'm not going to be aiming for the 2nd button on your shirt.

For the Grendel, again, I'm betting its expectations as well as longer lock time. Those are what, 2 inch groups? I know there will be people that say their 7.62, 6.5G or 6.5C semi shoot a .25. That's great, but its not too common and if it is, its a uncommon mix of technique, the right ammo for the gun and a gun that's above average/luck. I'm betting you can get it to 1-1.5, which with a semi is what you should strive for as far as competence; if you can always shoot a 1-1.5MOA group with a semi larger than 5.56 and you're still not happy, there's only 1 of 2 things you can do: pay a ton of money to chase your tail around finding the ammo and/or buying a .5MOA semi, or change out to shooting a bolt gun if tiny holes on paper is what gets you to sleep at night.

 

[DJL2]

For the Grendel, again, I'm betting its expectations as well as longer lock time. Those are what, 2 inch groups? I know there will be people that say their 7.62, 6.5G or 6.5C semi shoot a .25. That's great, but its not too common and if it is, its a uncommon mix of technique, the right ammo for the gun and a gun that's above average/luck. I'm betting you can get it to 1-1.5, which with a semi is what you should strive for as far as competence; if you can always shoot a 1-1.5MOA group with a semi larger than 5.56 and you're still not happy, there's only 1 of 2 things you can do: pay a ton of money to chase your tail around finding the ammo and/or buying a .5MOA semi, or change out to shooting a bolt gun if tiny holes on paper is what gets you to sleep at night.

Well, I did just buy a 6.5 CM bolt gun, so I’ve got that to look forward to. Plenty of 6.5 G ammo to burn through too, so I can plink with it at the range. I’m curious as to what my nothing special Bison Armory 6.8 barrel will do.

 

[newguy2k3v2]

I know you said you checked it but I've had absolute shit luck with every Larue mount I've ever had. From not being able to get the mount tight enough in the rail to the rings moving one the mount, after torquing and retorquing.

 

[DJL2]

I know you said you checked it but I've had absolute shit luck with every Larue mount I've ever had. From not being able to get the mount tight enough in the rail to the rings moving one the mount, after torquing and retorquing.

. The sheer number of variables is daunting. I’ll prioritize re-torquing the barrel nut, and cooling between shots initially - those are essentially free. I know the scope is solid in the rings, but I don’t have enough experience as a shooter to recognize what a bad mount would look like (as its never happened to me that I know of).

 

[Magnetic]

I don't want you feel alone @DJL2 . I took my UU 6.5G to the range on Friday and my groups look similar yours with 123 ELD, and slightly better with 123 American Gunner. I plan to disassemble, clean, retorque, add an adjustable gas block. I may also try bedding the receiver extension with loctite, although the opinions on this are certainly mixed. I plan to also try a different lower that has an A2 buffer tube and buffer to see if that makes any difference. I tried swapping out the brakes and found that a standard flash hider and V6 Gamma brake shot better for me. I'm not giving up just yet.

Maybe @LRRPF52 would be willing to give us some direction and advice.

 

[Pusher591]

Larues accuracy hasn’t been the same since they stopped using Lothar-Walther LW50 barrels and started producing their own.

 

[AZgeek]

But...but..they sent you 11 pocket constitutions and dildo dust!

Honestly, the #1 thing people still haven't figured with semis is that the accuracy expectation is somehow the same as with firing a bolt gun; yet the platform is inherently different.

The groups aern't horrible. When I shoot carbines (like your first picture) I basically make sure that I'm at/grouping around the center POA without any weirdness. After all, with a 16 or 11 inch 5.56, I'm not going to be aiming for the 2nd button on your shirt.

For the Grendel, again, I'm betting its expectations as well as longer lock time. Those are what, 2 inch groups? I know there will be people that say their 7.62, 6.5G or 6.5C semi shoot a .25. That's great, but its not too common and if it is, its a uncommon mix of technique, the right ammo for the gun and a gun that's above average/luck. I'm betting you can get it to 1-1.5, which with a semi is what you should strive for as far as competence; if you can always shoot a 1-1.5MOA group with a semi larger than 5.56 and you're still not happy, there's only 1 of 2 things you can do: pay a ton of money to chase your tail around finding the ammo and/or buying a .5MOA semi, or change out to shooting a bolt gun if tiny holes on paper is what gets you to sleep at night.

So how does one address shortening lock time? I'm having a similar challenge with my Grendel build with a Proof carbon fiber barrel. I've got the gas adjusted to a nice and soft shooting recoil impulse. Could full gassing it produce better accuracy results?

 

[Magnetic]

So how does one address shortening lock time? I'm having a similar challenge with my Grendel build with a Proof carbon fiber barrel. I've got the gas adjusted to a nice and soft shooting recoil impulse. Could full gassing it produce better accuracy results?

You may be confusing dwell time with lock time. Lock time is how long it takes to fire after the trigger break. In an AR vs. a bolt gun, you have the added time of the hammer swinging to strike the firing pin. The only way I know of to reduce lock time is to use a lighter-weight hammer.

 

[AZgeek]

I was confusing the two. Thanks for the clarification. Still wondering what full gas would do to my results. Probably make it worse but worth a try next time out.

 

[Jsp556]

How many rounds through the barrel? It should get faster and groups should shrink after a couple hundred rounds.

I’ve never been impressed with Larue products. We used to have an obr with a LW barrel. It shot well but the only thing you could depend on was popped primers and stuck cases.

There’s a reason people pay more money for hand lapped match grade barrels from competent shops.

 

[TheGerman]

I was confusing the two. Thanks for the clarification. Still wondering what full gas would do to my results. Probably make it worse but worth a try next time out.

Gas is going to have a very minimal effect (if at all) on the accuracy of the gun. The gas system is to make it function reliably, not 'tune' it.

 

[Magnetic]

Gas is going to have a very minimal effect (if at all) on the accuracy of the gun. The gas system is to make it function reliably, not 'tune' it.

So things like early unlocking, or early bolt/carrier movement do not affect accuracy? Are those not gas related?

 

[TheGerman]

So things like early unlocking, or early bolt/carrier movement do not affect accuracy? Are those not gas related?

Yes and no.

I don't think you'll be able to increase accuracy by it; or at least, its so minimal (unless you're gas is WAY over or under to where you're having more issues than just accuracy) to know if its you or the gun. There's no micrometer type measurement on a gas system that I know of where you'll be able to really know, other than you are now entirely too over/under-gassed, but that is usually evident because you will be getting malfunctions. OP didn't mention any weirdness as far as the brass being scattered all over the place, short stokes, stovepipes, fail to feed or last round not holding open. By all means, fuck around with the gas settings. But its not going to all of a sudden turn it into a .75 or .5 MOA gun.

I'm thinking OP's issue/question isn't in that his adjustable gas block is 1/110th of a turn too far left or right. I think it has to do with it just being a semi larger than 5.56, and inherently more difficult to shoot.

 

[AZgeek]

I did not mean to derail the OP's thread. My challenges are my own and may not be representative of his. Apologies.

 

[DJL2]

No worries, man. I’ve got enough challenges that we might share a few. No function issues to report. Ejection is consistent with damage to the case mouth from the brass deflector. I do wish I’d eased into this project versus going all in. Frankly, if it weren’t for the fact that I painted the upper/rail and have a pile of Grendel ammo I probably wouldn’t bother. I’ve got other rifles capable of offering me uninspired accuracy to medium range .

 

[Wile_Coyote]

I can understand your frustration. My experience with the Grendel has been the opposite. My 20" with a Satern barrel groups really well with factory Hornady ammo (AMax and SST 120-123). Handload SST's got even better. The 18" that I had (friend owns it now) also did and does well on factory ammo. My scope is a 3-12x50 Steiner Military Tactical. Groups were an inch or less and could probably be better if I was capable of more.

I have run out of SST projectiles and purchased some 123 ELD Match projectiles to try/ work with. I'll get some loaded and post results, but it'll be a little while. Have a family funeral at the end of the week out of state.

The only ammo my 20" didn't like was some hand loads using Barnes 120 TTSX. Groups and velocities weren't great. I could have probably developed a better load, but with SST's and AMax's doing well I stuck with them. I hope the ELD's work out.

Early on mine started wandering a little. I found the ring screws on my LaRue LT745 had loosened a little. Tightening and loctite fixed the issue. I later took the scope and mount and used it on another rifle. I had to another Steiner (same model) and put it in a Seekins 20 MOA mount. Never had any issue(s) with it. While the QD on the LaRue is nice and returns to zero, I've found I never really use them. I tried a couple MBT's, but found the operation didn't fit well for me and my groups opened up a little. Switching back to my AR Gold, Triggertech or Elftmann got rid of that. I just wasn't used to the MBT and didn't take the time to learn it since I had others.

Try contacting LaRue, they're usually pretty quick.

 

[Subwrx300]

Yes and no.

I don't think you'll be able to increase accuracy by it; or at least, its so minimal (unless you're gas is WAY over or under to where you're having more issues than just accuracy) to know if its you or the gun. There's no micrometer type measurement on a gas system that I know of where you'll be able to really know, other than you are now entirely too over/under-gassed, but that is usually evident because you will be getting malfunctions. OP didn't mention any weirdness as far as the brass being scattered all over the place, short stokes, stovepipes, fail to feed or last round not holding open. By all means, fuck around with the gas settings. But its not going to all of a sudden turn it into a .75 or .5 MOA gun.

I'm thinking OP's issue/question isn't in that his adjustable gas block is 1/110th of a turn too far left or right. I think it has to do with it just being a semi larger than 5.56, and inherently more difficult to shoot.

Definitely a plus one here. Gas tuning might improve precision about .25MOA or so on the high side and can change SD's slightly (in either direction), but I could very well be that your barrel simply isn't performing that well.

A lot of guys expect that if they can shoot 1.5moa with red dot, then high mag scope will cut groups in half or something similar. But that usually isn't the case. Keep in mind that iron sight shooters can hold at or even sub-MOA with less precise aim points than red dots. Those red dot groups are great and should be a confidence booster.

It looks like you either haven't found the right ammo/load. I've shot plenty of "match ammo" in 223s that wouldn't hold better than 1.5moa but my handloads would print .5-.75 very consistently. It's simply because the factory loads was wrong for my gun. If you can only shoot factory ammo for the Grendel, I'd strongly suggest buying several different boxes of various weights and brands. If none of those work well, it's either talk to LaRue to get a new barrel, buy different barrel or start handloading to see if you can work into something more consistent.

 

[TheGerman]

One thing I forgot to add that I've noticed on semis; if your position and especially your rear support (rear bag, whatever) isn't basically perfect, the semi will really exploit it.

You will basically do something like shoot 2 separate groups in a string of 5 shots where 2 or 3 will group and then the remaining 2 or 3 will group an inch or so away.

 

[DJL2]

Well, I’ve had a pretty terrible 96 hours - no new parts. I can still go shoot today though, and might sling some more lead and see what happens. I’ve got a 6.8 to sight in, too.

The definition of apprehension is watching your entire family get a stomach bug that makes them violently ill one at a time...last man standing, so far.

 

[Magnetic]

After a complete tear-down, clean, and reassemble I headed back to the range. The only significant change to note was I installed the much heavier Tranquilo brake instead of the flash hider and Gamma V6 brake I used last time. My 5-shot groups shrank to 1.3", but my 3-shot groups are now pretty good. They averaged .75", with a best of .5" with AE 120 OTM.

One thing I forgot to add that I've noticed on semis; if your position and especially your rear support (rear bag, whatever) isn't basically perfect, the semi will really exploit it. You will basically do something like shoot 2 separate groups in a string of 5 shots where 2 or 3 will group and then the remaining 2 or 3 will group an inch or so away.

Maybe part of this IS me, because this is exactly what was happening in my 5-shot groups. 3 touching, then 1 or 2 of them an inch away.

P.s.
The Federal American Eagle 120 gr OTM and Wolf Gold 120 MPT both outperformed the Hornady ELD-M and American Gunner ammo in my rifle.

 

[DuneShoot]

OP I hope you're still standing!
Have you contacted Larue?

 

[DJL2]

I'd like to say that my immune system laughed in the face of some puny microorganisms' pathetic attempt to assail me. However, the truth is that I spent from not long after I made that last post until this morning in rough shape. I'm hoping to get out and do some gathering today, potentially get to the range tomorrow. Once I've at least attempted to control from some ammo and equipment related variables, I'll send a note to LaRue if my challenge persists.

 

[LRRPF52]

Larues accuracy hasn’t been the same since they stopped using Lothar-Walther LW50 barrels and started producing their own.

The Germans laugh at the US by sending their reject LW pipes over here, while keeping the good ones for the Euro market. I used to do accuracy-testing for a precision rifle builder on a contractual basis where they sourced a lot of Krieger and LW pipes at the time.

The difference was literally night and day. The Kriegers would shoot .5" groups out of the gate most of the time, whereas you'd be lucky to break an inch with half of the LWs, and this was from bolt guns shooting in a mechanical rest. Some of them would shoot 4 rounds into a tiny bughole, then leave a flier so far out at 1.7" that you wondered what was going on, especially with one particular .243 Winchester a customer sent back. It was definitely more prevalent with the .243s and .338s, but not the .308s and .300 Win Mags for some reason.

I've spent years working with military precision rifle communities in Europe who have had great results with their LW barrels sourced in Europe, but I still don't think it's the go-to over there.

As to shooting ARs in larger calibers, I find that I can free-recoil a .223 Wylde or 5.56 rifle as the projectile mass is so tiny, there is minimal displacement of the rifle throughout the shot and very easy follow-through.

With 6.5 Grendel, I treat them like I do an AR10 with a lot of rear pressure into my chest, rear pressure on the pistol grip, and if I'm shooting for zero confirmation or load development off a bench, I prefer to fold up the bipod legs and rest them on whatever rest is there, while using a rear bag.

Not saying that's the OP's problem, but something to consider. Also, I'm a big believer in bedding barrels and applying balanced torque on AR15s after all I've seen from the AMU, JP, and other trusted shops who specialize in accurate AR15s or AR10s. To the OP, I would recommend trying the bedding job and then see how much your groups shrink.

My LaRue Stealth shot Hornady American Gunner really well with 5rds into .75". When I see that, I don't mess with the gun much anymore and just take it out to distance on steel and do what I enjoy most with them. I personally kinda loathe sitting at 100-300yds and shooting paper.

Here are one of my worst and best groups from the LaRue. I could cherry-pick the best group and conceal the worst one, but I don't like it when people do that as I feel it is more often than not the norm since people really want to confirm their bias towards their rifle. This is with 123gr American Gunner and I have not bedded the barrel yet:

 

[wigwamitus]

Groups in the past 30 days ... all groups are 4 round groups at 100yds.

6.5G(18) (this is a bucket of parts gun ... the trigger is timney 3 lb ... the ammo is eld-m.

Prone (10 groups) 0.81

RRS Tripod (12 groups ) 0.81

REM700 .308WIN(20) Sendero barrel + Bravo chassis, stock trigger 3.5 lb, using FGMM 168gr

Prone ( 26 groups ) 0.65

RRS Tripod ( 18 groups ) 0.98

And I include ALL groups, regardless of equipment failures, causes etc. And I've had loose bipods and other equipment issues - but those all count.

For the 6.5G(18) I know I can do better ... the scope is mounted too low and I need to go back to my infamous "rails on rails" ...

For the bolt gun, the loose bipod issue can also bee corrected.

But for me, my expectation is that the stoner can do as well as the bolt gun ...

 

[eklarsen]

Yeah, I would sell it and take up golf.

 

[DJL2]

Yeah, I would sell it and take up golf.

You buying? I’ll make you a deal!

 

[DJL2]

My efforts to source anything but a heavier buffer have been for naught. I found several types of 6.5 CM ammo, no 6.5 G. I ordered some...and it MAY ship in 2-3 weeks (or be back ordered indefinitely like last time). More than anything else, lack of ammo availability might be what drives me over the edge on this.

The weather has been foul except for the days I was laid low or at work - have not been to the range. Nothing but ELD-M, SST and Wolf to shoot at the moment, so no change there.

 

[wigwamitus]

I just got three cases of 200 each ELD-M from SGAMMO ... I don't think there is a shortage of ELD-M ... and for groups at 100yds ... or 127 meters ... I think the ELM-D is fine ... now I agree getting the Federal 130gr Bergers seems to be impossible ... I've managed to accumulate 860 rds but I don't dare shoot any of it until (if ever) I can find a source. So I'm shooting the ELD-M except for hog hunting, where I switch to the SST. I've gotten an SD of 5 for 20 rds of ELD-M with the MSv3. That's the best SD I've ever seen.

==

Are you having a cycling issue? Is that why you're looking for another buffer ?

==

You did tune the AGB ??

I had a sh^t load of stove pipes at first with my 6.5G(18) until I tuned the AGB, then all is well since. Is was delivered "wide open" and since I shoot surpressed, that was not a good setting. I turned it all the way down then first 1 rd from a magazine and noted the bolt did not lock to the rear. And kept opening it up , shoot 1 rd until the bolt did lock to the rear ... and then opened it a tad more. Then let it cool ... and fired 15 rds quickly and noted no cycling issues.

 

[hypno02]

I agree with almost everything @TheGerman has said in this thread.

Bolt guns are cake.

5.56 Semis are cake that was left in the oven a little too long.

>5.56 Semi’s are that pizza you cooked at 2:30am when you got home from the bar. Much harder to perfect than baking that perfect bolt gun cake @1pm with your nana

 

[flyright]

I've had a couple of semi autos that easily shot as well as bolt guns. I've had several that shot like sh!t. With those, I adjusted gas blocks, tried different factory ammo, tried hand loads, retorqued barrels, scopes, mounts etc. Tried different buffers, springs, bolts, BC's, GB's, triggers, stocks all to no avail and finally just sold them for a loss. In the end, the ones I sold have made me most happy. Used the funds to purchase a JP or some other quality rifle that was easy to shoot well. My "keeper" rifles I can pick up, run around the field, go prone or to a bench and keep shooting the same hole. Those are good rifles.

Life is too short to spend time trying to "tune" a finicky rifle and/or having to keep an exact shooting position, rest, pressure, hold. I've enjoyed the challenge and even found ways to turn a couple of turds into jewels but found it much easier and satisfying just to move on. That golden gun is out there for you. Best of wishes you will find it. All IMHO.

 

[deersniper]

But...but..they sent you 11 pocket constitutions and dildo dust!

When I shoot carbines (like your first picture) I basically make sure that I'm at/grouping around the center POA without any weirdness. After all, with a 16 or 11 inch 5.56, I'm not going to be aiming for the 2nd button on your shirt.

For the Grendel, again, I'm betting its expectations as well as longer lock time. Those are what, 2 inch groups? I know there will be people that say their 7.62, 6.5G or 6.5C semi shoot a .25. That's great, but its not too common and if it is, its a uncommon mix of technique, the right ammo for the gun and a gun that's above average/luck. I'm betting you can get it to 1-1.5, which with a semi is what you should strive for as far as competence; if you can always shoot a 1-1.5MOA group with a semi larger than 5.56 and you're still not happy, there's only 1 of 2 things you can do: pay a ton of money to chase your tail around finding the ammo and/or buying a .5MOA semi, or change out to shooting a bolt gun if tiny holes on paper is what gets you to sleep at night.

I think you do a 16" carbine an injustice. They can be very accurate. I have 16" 223 pofs that are very accurate .5-.7 5 shot groups. Have shot things like a baby fox at 575 and a red wing blackbird size target at 268. A 16" carbine can be very accurate and used for small targets

 

[DJL2]

I've had a couple of semi autos that easily shot as well as bolt guns. I've had several that shot like sh!t. With those, I adjusted gas blocks, tried different factory ammo, tried hand loads, retorqued barrels, scopes, mounts etc. Tried different buffers, springs, bolts, BC's, GB's, triggers, stocks all to no avail and finally just sold them for a loss. In the end, the ones I sold have made me most happy. Used the funds to purchase a JP or some other quality rifle that was easy to shoot well. My "keeper" rifles I can pick up, run around the field, go prone or to a bench and keep shooting the same hole. Those are good rifles.

Life is too short to spend time trying to "tune" a finicky rifle and/or having to keep an exact shooting position, rest, pressure, hold. I've enjoyed the challenge and even found ways to turn a couple of turds into jewels but found it much easier and satisfying just to move on. That golden gun is out there for you. Best of wishes you will find it. All IMHO.

That “golden gun” will hopefully be the KRG SOTIC I ordered. UPS dashed some of my Christmas cheer by estimating a 2 week ship time (as in it shipped this week and they say I won’t see it before the new year). The ammo is basically the same price as 6.5 G and easier to find, so I expect that will be a phenomenal shooter and basically the same cost to run (though, clearly, a more expensive rig to get into).

Honestly, if I knew of a good way to re-sell ammo, I’d probably have this baby listed already, heh. However, at this point, I’ve got a ton of reloading components for calibers I no longer own as well as several hundred rounds of 6.5 G. Basically, I’m tired of taking hundreds of dollars loss on ammo/components - I’ll shoot my way through most of my 6.5 G ammo at least before I consider a move.

If I get a Bravo chassis and a loooong custom barrel for my CZ550 in 6.5 Swede, maybe I can burn some of my H1000 at least? Have something to shoot alongside my 6.5 CM. The Turkish Walnut is beautiful, but maybe it’s time to move on. The rifle is a good shooter, the barrel is just far too short for the Swede...especially for using leftover 7mm Rem Mag powder, heh.

 

[LRRPF52]

My efforts to source anything but a heavier buffer have been for naught. I found several types of 6.5 CM ammo, no 6.5 G. I ordered some...and it MAY ship in 2-3 weeks (or be back ordered indefinitely like last time). More than anything else, lack of ammo availability might be what drives me over the edge on this.

The weather has been foul except for the days I was laid low or at work - have not been to the range. Nothing but ELD-M, SST and Wolf to shoot at the moment, so no change there.

If you're having problems finding ammo, check out ammoseek.

I just got a case of 123gr ELD-M Hornady Match from Academy for $16.49/20rd box shipped, and am now seeing vendors selling it for $14.89 + shipping.

Sportsman's Warehouse has Hornady American Gunner 200rd ammo boxes for $139.99 (70cprd). There is ammo all over the place, and has been for many years. Federal has 4 factory loads for it.

It's one of the only 3 cartridges that fit in the AR15 or AR10 that has:

Steel case
Gold Medal Match
SAAMI certification
CIP certification

 

[DJL2]

I was hoping to source some locally simply to avoid having to buy online and then wait on and pay for the shipping.

At this point, I’m not prepared to buy a 200 rd box of anything that’s not a proven shooter. That’s how I ended up with a stack of ELD-M in my safe taunting me. Saw a good deal, jumped on it. I think I finished off my SST, no desire to order any more of that. I ought to have done my research on the WPA stuff before I bought it - undersized and loaded light, not worth the money, even at $.22/rd or so. I’ve got probably 960 rds of that staring at me. Caveat emptor.

If I find somewhere that stocks Federal AE and GMM, that’d be a win at this point - could try a box each of those, even if it must be ordered.

I must say, though, that my love of all things 6.5 mm did me no favors here. Had I more sense, I’d have abstained from the Grendel as I did from the 260. I’m hard pressed, in retrospect, to think of anything my 6.5 G might do for me that my 5.56 NATO or 6.8 SPC couldn’t handle.

 

[DuneShoot]

Grendel should out shine 5.56 at distance. Longer range shots should be much easier.
If you and someone else can't get the rifle to perform call Larue to get it sent in.

 

[DJL2]

Finding someone to do independent verification is going to be tricky. Generally, the only thing I have in shorter supply than time is friends...or even acquaintances. Thus why I’m spending a Saturday night during the holiday season typing to strangers on the internet from home. You all seem nice, though.

If anyone is around central North Carolina and wants a go, let me know. Be honest, no one wants to spend Christmas at home anyway!

 

[wigwamitus]

I can't tell another person what works for them ... but I can say the Grendel works for me ... beats the 5.56 and the 6.8 both ...

I sold a Sig 7.62(16) patrol 3 years ago and the 6.5G(18) was its replacement. I sold the Sig not because I didn't like the way it shot, but because of the Sig proprietary business model (we will not sell you any parts). Whereas the 6.5G(18) I have is in essence "open source".

So looking at the numbers ... from my shooter with my 6.5G(18) and ELD-M 123

100 yds Velocity 2217 energy 1342
200yds Velocity 2049 energy 1146

500yds hold 4.1 mils up ... 10 MPH cross wind 1.4 mils

750yds hold 8.3 mils up ... 10 mph cross wind 2.3 mils ... velocity 1291 ... in the TS zone

900yds hold 11.6 mils up ... 10 mph cross wind 2.9 mils ... velocity 1154 ... still TS

==

6.8 120gr SST 100yds velocity 2250 energy 1349 (16 inch barrel)
6.8 120gr SST 200yds velocity 2050 energy 1120

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/6-8mm-spc-120-gr-sst#![/ur]

 

[wigwamitus]

(Edit) So the 6.8 wins energy by 7 ft lbs at point blank range, 100yds ... but is down to the grendel by 26 f-pds by 200yds (end Edit)

==

7.62(20) from my shooter with FGMM 175gr


500yds hold 3.7 mils up ... 10 mph cross wind 1.3 mils
750yds hold 7.6 mils up ... 10 mph cross wind 2.2 mils velocity 1307 in the TS zone
900yds hold 10.7 mils up ... 10 mph cross wind 2.9 mils ... still TS

==

So I call the 6.5G(18) "A .308 on a small frame" ... it ties the 168gr at 800 ... and doesn't trail the 175gr much at 900yds and in current conditions doesn't go subsonic until 960yds whereas the 175gr goes subsonic at 910yds ...

==

As to my 5.56(18) with 77gr

500yds hold 3.3 mils up ... 10 mph cross wind 1.5 mils
750yds hold 7.1 mils up ...10 mph cross wind 2.7 mils in the TS zone
900yds hold 10.4 mils up .. 10 mph cross wind 3.1 mils ... but went subsonic at 830yds ...

==

So for me, the 6.5G(18) is a 900yd gun, more comparible to the .308 175gr than the 6.8 or the 5.56 ...

I consider the 5.56(18) to be a 750yd gun due to going subsonic at 830yds ... but I can ding steel with it prone or tripod at 750yds ...

But the 6.5G(18) and the 7.62(20) are 900yd guns ...

The 6.8 is a good hog slayer ... 50yds-150yds ...

==

My big problem with the 6.5G is that really it is a re-loader cartridge ... and time is still key for me ... so I am still stuck using factory ammo ... and for most purposes that means 123 ELD-M ... which is actually a good round ... It's just I wish I could get the Federal loaded 130gr berger ... and I have 860 rds of it ... but until I either decide to try to reload and clone that round ... or I find a source for it ... that ammo stays on the shelf ... and I shoot the 123 ELD-M. I do use the 123 SST for hogs ... it is over kill on yotes ...

 

[chavezz556]

My Larue Grendel is disappointment. I almost immediately had Craddock spin up a Bartlein 18'' barrel. That barrel is accurate but I can't get the rifle to function. Ive tried multiple gas blocks, the Larue BCG as fellas the JP BCG that the barrel was headspace to. Every time I take it out I get pissed.
I've tried, Hornady Black, The McCourt Custom, Federal Gold Medal and HSM. The HSM seems to work the best.View attachment 6982762

Go look up Nutnfacys video on his 20" LaRue.. in the end the gas port in the barrel need to be enlarged and he had to do it after sending it to LaRue twice