It’s called a smith and Wesson 351pd. It is so light it feels like a toy. Way better than a knife.
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K-Bars Ultralight self defense blade for female runner
- Thread starter jbell
- Start date
I completely understand what your saying and agree. Of course no one knows how they will react (that goes for any of us, o matter what level of training you have), but I suppose my thoughts are that they only time it isn’t an option is if you don’t have it. Unfortunately another dog isn’t in the cards.
I get that. I am just thinking about keeping the creep as far away as possible.
I actually think having a knife on you is a good idea, for other emergencies. If she hurts herself otherwise and needs to cut off a strip of fabric to wrap something etc. I'd suggest the same one I suggested to the German. The Winkler Operator. It looks like a steak knife, is light, and easy to carry. The sheath can be attached in many ways.
Has she seen many of the attack videos?
“Hey do you have the time”
“could I ask you a question”
“Could you help me really quick”
Words not matching movements
transitional spaces, knowing when to cross the street, etc
“Hey do you have the time”
“could I ask you a question”
“Could you help me really quick”
Words not matching movements
transitional spaces, knowing when to cross the street, etc
We have not seen any specific videos on that, but we do go over situations where people are asking for help, information, etc and watching body language of people in general while in public spaces.
Look up stats for deaths/injuries by edged weapons.
Slashing wounds - unlikely to incapacitate an assailant unless get very lucky.
Stab wounds - cause most deaths/incapacitations but time till incapacitation point is enough to allow the assailant to do a lot of damage to your daughter.
In most cases edged weapon victims aren’t even aware they have been stabbed/cut until much later.
Knives have their time and place but I would respectfully suggest this prob isn’t one of them.
You already have given your daughter the highest possible chance to avoid/ recognise these types of situations and in terms of other realistic options, use risk management principals.
Slashing wounds - unlikely to incapacitate an assailant unless get very lucky.
Stab wounds - cause most deaths/incapacitations but time till incapacitation point is enough to allow the assailant to do a lot of damage to your daughter.
In most cases edged weapon victims aren’t even aware they have been stabbed/cut until much later.
Knives have their time and place but I would respectfully suggest this prob isn’t one of them.
You already have given your daughter the highest possible chance to avoid/ recognise these types of situations and in terms of other realistic options, use risk management principals.
Bit off topic but also consider that non verbal attacks happen as well. Simple as walking up and stabbing someone, first indication they get that something is wrong is that they laying on the ground bleeding as someone takes their phone and wallet.
I guess if you are experienced at robbing people why waste time on dialogue.
Because a call (or complaint)
of someone getting their wallet, or even GPS equipped phone, taken from them, won’t get the donut squad off their ass, best you get is maybe a cool report that you could frame or use as toilet paper.
You leave a body, you now force the lard and pension fueled cogs of the machine to have to turn. And if they catch you it goes from a catch and release, to actually having a life altering event for the criminal.
it seems like nobody in this thread has ever actually trained hard at running. Your daughter needs something small and light. Either a small microtech auto, or a super slim folder from kershaw or spiderco to clip inside her shorts right at her hip, or small of her back.
Push daggers will have too wide of a handle, and giant stilettos will be difficult/uncomfortable to carry in short, light running shorts. If you don’t get something small and light enough, she will never carry it.
Push daggers will have too wide of a handle, and giant stilettos will be difficult/uncomfortable to carry in short, light running shorts. If you don’t get something small and light enough, she will never carry it.
I've been using it daily for work since 2018... It's been a phenomenal blade. I highly recommend it.
I ran Division I Track & Field (10 years ago)
I’d say it looks like we’re on the same page...
I’ll add, my only recommendation would be to get a nice kydex sheath made for it. The factory sheath leaves some refinement to be desired. You’ll save enough on the knife to buy/make a custom holster and still be under $100.
Agreed, the form factor is tough for this very specific application which really limits the plausible choices. Even if she was just casually running for fitness then it would be a different conversation. The easy days really are not a big deal it’s the 2-3 really hard days (depending on the week of the training block) that I am really trying to optimize for.
There have been some good suggestions so far, thank you! I still have a few weeks before she has her drivers license (it takes forever these days) and the snow will not be out for another month or more so I am taking my time. I appreciate everything thus far!
Bought a nice, light Titanium neck knife from these guys years ago:
www.crawfordknives.com
Neck Knives/Survival tools | Mysite
Custom knives made by Wes Crawford of Crawford Knives in Arkansas and he makes the Survival Staff, a handmade hiking stick or tool
www.crawfordknives.com
I run a lot, wear 5" shorts, and carry a Esee Candiru at my 1 o'clock. It's small, lightweight, and simple. From 1 o'clock, I can reach it with either hand.
I am now too old and broken (but getting tests for bone density, working on it!), but way back in high school was varsity track, JV XC. Only a few years ago, was still running 30+ miles a week. I traveled for work a lot, so have run in all sorts of places I am not familiar with, and which are sketchy as hell. I've been accosted plenty. I think a lot of us contributing are doing so not because we're busybodies but because we've run and encountered this sort of issue or advised others who have, or both.
I have had zero problems running with a fannypack with a lot of stuff in it (pistol, GPS before phones did that, keys, etc) and know plenty of ultramarathon types who run with the ones big enough they carry two water bottles. Most of my suggestions have been very much more minimal, and specifically referenced upper-arm carriers, for example.
And... I have had to do this in places where I flew, or not in the US, so did it without firearms, or maybe even a knife. Head on a swivel, turn 180° and take a different path, and keep things like my flashlight in hand as an impact weapon.
I have had zero problems running with a fannypack with a lot of stuff in it (pistol, GPS before phones did that, keys, etc) and know plenty of ultramarathon types who run with the ones big enough they carry two water bottles. Most of my suggestions have been very much more minimal, and specifically referenced upper-arm carriers, for example.
And... I have had to do this in places where I flew, or not in the US, so did it without firearms, or maybe even a knife. Head on a swivel, turn 180° and take a different path, and keep things like my flashlight in hand as an impact weapon.
Sorry if I'm not bringing fun stuff to the party like "have her carry an RMJ or Winkler tomahawk with a rear spike"...
but some thoughts to consider:
1. is it LEGAL for a 16 year old minor to be carrying a non-folding blade in a particular jurisdiction? what might the legal consequences be if stopped by LE carrying blade of choice? what happens if she accidentally leaves it somewhere another minor gets a hold of it? if she accidentally brings it to school?
2. is it prudent to bring a lethal weapon into an encounter that might not have had one before?
if defensive victim pulls a blade and doesn't know how to use it/retain it in a fight... just armed the assailant
3. Are there training partners on her team she can run with? Most likely her coach has a scheduled workout for the varsity team based on peak/scheduling for races. She really needs to run/train with her teammates on non school days.
4. where will she hide a blade & sheath wearing super lightweight running shorts and a sports bra?
---
of the options presented above for her application
I'm a huge fan of the clinch pick (I've trained with Craig) because it fits in the hand really well, deploys quickly, very light, and is very very difficult to get out of your hand; here is a link to the new version with the flat sides and texturing
that said, same for the most part using the small push blades like the last ditch, that have handles retained within the fist will do well too
running with even an Airweight SUCKS btw
I was captain of my hs XC team, so I'm familiar with the training regimen.
Just my opinion, but champion or not... an attractive 16 year old girl should not be running by herself. What are you getting for taking such a huge risk?
but some thoughts to consider:
1. is it LEGAL for a 16 year old minor to be carrying a non-folding blade in a particular jurisdiction? what might the legal consequences be if stopped by LE carrying blade of choice? what happens if she accidentally leaves it somewhere another minor gets a hold of it? if she accidentally brings it to school?
2. is it prudent to bring a lethal weapon into an encounter that might not have had one before?
if defensive victim pulls a blade and doesn't know how to use it/retain it in a fight... just armed the assailant
3. Are there training partners on her team she can run with? Most likely her coach has a scheduled workout for the varsity team based on peak/scheduling for races. She really needs to run/train with her teammates on non school days.
4. where will she hide a blade & sheath wearing super lightweight running shorts and a sports bra?
---
of the options presented above for her application
I'm a huge fan of the clinch pick (I've trained with Craig) because it fits in the hand really well, deploys quickly, very light, and is very very difficult to get out of your hand; here is a link to the new version with the flat sides and texturing
that said, same for the most part using the small push blades like the last ditch, that have handles retained within the fist will do well too
running with even an Airweight SUCKS btw
I was captain of my hs XC team, so I'm familiar with the training regimen.
Just my opinion, but champion or not... an attractive 16 year old girl should not be running by herself. What are you getting for taking such a huge risk?
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I hate running...so...fucking...much...truly. I've got about 2 decades or so of "running with intent" and it just keeps getting worse. So, step one, consider a CAT scan, maybe a BH eval...
Seriously, though...what's she already packing for gear? Did I miss that? Forget bad guys for a second...seen more than one shitty, sad story that stars a formerly super fast kid that didn't hydrate or whatever. You're talking longer trail runs - she's gotta have something, right? My vote is pick one that integrates well with what she's already rocking - small and fixed. Versatile is good, but if you gotta err, err on the side of stabby.
Seriously, though...what's she already packing for gear? Did I miss that? Forget bad guys for a second...seen more than one shitty, sad story that stars a formerly super fast kid that didn't hydrate or whatever. You're talking longer trail runs - she's gotta have something, right? My vote is pick one that integrates well with what she's already rocking - small and fixed. Versatile is good, but if you gotta err, err on the side of stabby.
@jbell I think that this is realy great advice that @TurboTrout offers. It isn't an easy exercise to stomach, but sitting down and going through footage is an absolutely excellent way to understand how aggressors initiate successful attacks. It's eye opening to see how someone unwittingly orients towards an unknown, stops moving, fails to read mismatched movements and cues, and then gets overrun. Learning how to identify the patterns and then diagnose failures to break away (or stop) someone who initiates the attack cycle will pay dividends in the real world.
Another great way to witness this phenomenon in the real world is to go to an area with a number of panhandlers or advocates from Greenpeace, PETA, UNICEF, Amnesty International, or any other nonprofit organization that attempts to canvas sidewalks in cities, and watch how people navigate them, then discuss. If you're really lucky, you'll find a panhandler or advocate who doesn't take "no" for an answer, and you can watch a similar cycle to the attack initiation over and over again while asking questions about how they choose their "targets" etc.
If you're really up for giving her a challenge, have her then navigate an area with one or two of them while you have the ability to supervise at a comfortable distance. This isn't for everyone, but definitely helps build the skillset.
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Those are some good points, here is where I am at on them:Sorry if I'm not bringing fun stuff to the party like "have her carry an RMJ or Winkler tomahawk with a rear spike"...
but some thoughts to consider:
1. is it LEGAL for a 16 year old minor to be carrying a non-folding blade in a particular jurisdiction? what might the legal consequences be if stopped by LE carrying blade of choice? what happens if she accidentally leaves it somewhere another minor gets a hold of it? if she accidentally brings it to school?
2. is it prudent to bring a lethal weapon into an encounter that might not have had one before?
if defensive victim pulls a blade and doesn't know how to use it/retain it in a fight... just armed the assailant
3. Are there training partners on her team she can run with? Most likely her coach has a scheduled workout for the varsity team based on peak/scheduling for races. She really needs to run/train with her teammates on non school days.
4. where will she hide a blade & sheath wearing super lightweight running shorts and a sports bra?
---
of the options presented above for her application
I'm a huge fan of the clinch pick (I've trained with Craig) because it fits in the hand really well, deploys quickly, very light, and is very very difficult to get out of your hand; here is a link to the new version with the flat sides and texturing
that said, same for the most part using the small push blades like the last ditch, that have handles retained within the fist will do well too
running with even an Airweight SUCKS btw
I was captain of my hs XC team, so I'm familiar with the training regimen.
Just my opinion, but champion or not... an attractive 16 year old girl should not be running by herself. What are you getting for taking such a huge risk?
1: We have discussed and she is aware of having to be diligent about not taking it to school. I am not sure of the laws in Maine about a 16 year old carrying a fixed blade, however even if it was against the law I would still have her take it. I would rather trade a court appearance and a mildly traumatic experience for a major traumatic experience or worse any day.
2: The knife will not come out until there are hands on and she is very aware of why. This is not a deterrent from someone closing the distance but rather a deterrent from someone continuing an action after they have already made contact. Think can’t get free, last ditch effort. The last thing I want her to do is brandish a weapon to either scare people unnecessarily or give away that last resort fall back.
3: She does train with her HS XC team quite often during the season but she trains year round and on weekends when they are not.
4: Clothing is part of this whole self protection thing which we are going over. But even with semi covering garments comfortable retention of a weapon (of any kind) is very difficult for running. We are working on that aspect. This is one more element that eliminates a lot of options.
I’d look at any of the titanium liner locks. I’d glue a thin piece of felt or rubber to the inside (part that will be touching the hip) to keep it from chafing. Depends on attire but a lot of runners use shorts with built in liners so you won’t have anything between the knife and skin which can chafe when running long distances. She should however practice drawing and opening the knife. This should be very fluent and efficient as a knife on the ground won’t help you at all.
My daughter has something similar on her keychain, shes in a different town in college and when she runs or takes the dog to the dog park she has it with her constantlythis little thing is handy, can tie it into shoe laces or just wear it around your neck
cold steels delta dart is also pretty handy and light weight
DELTA DART
The Delta Dart's ergonomic handle is knurled for a secure grip, while the butt is rounded for both thumb and palm reinforced positions. Its triangular crosswww.coldsteel.com
Put that on and go for a 10 mile run, or do an hour of Zone 5 HR cardio... I bet you will think it’s pretty dumb after about 5 min
Let's hijack! I've got zone 5 set as above my lactate threshold (over 90%)...have I dorked that up? Oof...
On that note, I've worn Amphipod (closest current model is the RunLite Xtech 4) for three plus hours / 18 plus miles. Used it extensively when I was really, really trying to give running a chance and trained up for a marathon. I skipped it on my short 6-8 mile runs, but any time I was putting in the miles, that little guy and 32 ounces of fluid came with me. That was Germany, so no gat. May or may not have carried a knife of questionable legality. Well fit belt kit has always carried easily for me. LCE over a chest rig any day and twice on long patrols. If your little is headed towards serious distance running, might as well get her squared away with something that works for her.
I've worn the Hill People Gear "manny pack" quite a lot. I'll be honest - it's pretty unpleasant, especially when it's hot out. I dislike shit sitting on my back or chest when I'm working my ass off. I did it anyway, though, because there are only so many ways to carry car keys, phone, TQ, Glock 19 and spare mag (or a Kahr P9 for lazy days) or whatever else. I don't think I ever put in more than six miles so configured. At that point I was just resigned to running being miserable, so I carried it anyway - there's a point of diminishing suck I guess. Still better than trying to carry my stuff with me in my hand. Bonus: also the right size to hold diapers, so really works with your dad image when you do regular stuff with the family.
On that note, I've worn Amphipod (closest current model is the RunLite Xtech 4) for three plus hours / 18 plus miles. Used it extensively when I was really, really trying to give running a chance and trained up for a marathon. I skipped it on my short 6-8 mile runs, but any time I was putting in the miles, that little guy and 32 ounces of fluid came with me. That was Germany, so no gat. May or may not have carried a knife of questionable legality. Well fit belt kit has always carried easily for me. LCE over a chest rig any day and twice on long patrols. If your little is headed towards serious distance running, might as well get her squared away with something that works for her.
I've worn the Hill People Gear "manny pack" quite a lot. I'll be honest - it's pretty unpleasant, especially when it's hot out. I dislike shit sitting on my back or chest when I'm working my ass off. I did it anyway, though, because there are only so many ways to carry car keys, phone, TQ, Glock 19 and spare mag (or a Kahr P9 for lazy days) or whatever else. I don't think I ever put in more than six miles so configured. At that point I was just resigned to running being miserable, so I carried it anyway - there's a point of diminishing suck I guess. Still better than trying to carry my stuff with me in my hand. Bonus: also the right size to hold diapers, so really works with your dad image when you do regular stuff with the family.
We have been looking at running / hydration belts and that option is still on the table, but she just has not ever needed to worry about it as I have always been with her (and I carry the hydration when needed). She isn’t a drinker while running unless it is a long slow day, never during the intensity days.
Zone 5 is normally viewed about 95% - 100% of lactate threshold (think MAX effort), you are probably meaning High Z3 up to Z4 work if it was sustainable for any length of time over 30 seconds. But I gotcha...
Zone 5 is normally viewed about 95% - 100% of lactate threshold (think MAX effort), you are probably meaning High Z3 up to Z4 work if it was sustainable for any length of time over 30 seconds. But I gotcha...
I carry the Hill people gear chest pack with a Xds 9/45 when I fish rivers or backpack. I don’t believe I could run distance with it though. LCP in a sticky holster when running. It actually fits snd holds well in a pair of running shorts.
@mattr25 - I carry in this one:
https://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/CategoryID/1/ProductID/2
Wears easily under/with a ruck. The elastic band keeps it stable. It sucks a LOT less than a camelbak, but it’s still several pounds in a harness on your chest and back.
@jbell - hmm...guess I need to go tweak. My redline is about 180-185 bpm, but if I’ve got that pegged wrong then I’m not getting the right picture. Good luck on the belt search.
https://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/CategoryID/1/ProductID/2
Wears easily under/with a ruck. The elastic band keeps it stable. It sucks a LOT less than a camelbak, but it’s still several pounds in a harness on your chest and back.
@jbell - hmm...guess I need to go tweak. My redline is about 180-185 bpm, but if I’ve got that pegged wrong then I’m not getting the right picture. Good luck on the belt search.
you can only hold zone 5 for 30 seconds? Your wife must be a disappointed woman
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I was being a little extreme with my example of 30 seconds, I just mean Z5 isn’t something you can sustain very long. A 3 minute Z5 interval is pretty tough if your using a traditional 5 zone model (some do a Z5a, b, & c) but I think that is getting a little too detailed.
I would love to see that whole HR file for that workout you put a screenshot of. Were you using a chest strap?
I would love to see that whole HR file for that workout you put a screenshot of. Were you using a chest strap?
But then again, I am a cyclist and my mind works in power zones not HR zones. I don’t train based on HR like my daughter / runners do. But still Z5 HR should be a max HR in most training models.
Read this semi monstrosity first to see if somebody had posted something like this.
I don't have a knife recommendation but I did find this.
www.akti.org
Saw that you're in Maine.
www.akti.org
It says some of the bigger cities (like Lewiston) have knife laws as well.
I thought of it cause of handgunlaw.us and figured there'd have to be something like it for knives.
Good luck on the search.
I don't have a knife recommendation but I did find this.
State Knife Laws | American Knife and Tool Institute
www.akti.org
Saw that you're in Maine.
Maine Knife Laws | American Knife and Tool Institute
The sparse body of Maine knife law applies to any Bowie knife, dirk, stiletto, and other such knives “usually employed in the attack on, or defense of a person.” A knife within this class cannot…
www.akti.org
I thought of it cause of handgunlaw.us and figured there'd have to be something like it for knives.
Good luck on the search.
Read this semi monstrosity first to see if somebody had posted something like this.
I don't have a knife recommendation but I did find this.
State Knife Laws | American Knife and Tool Institute
Saw that you're in Maine.
It says some of the bigger cities (like Lewiston) have knife laws as well.Maine Knife Laws | American Knife and Tool Institute
The sparse body of Maine knife law applies to any Bowie knife, dirk, stiletto, and other such knives “usually employed in the attack on, or defense of a person.” A knife within this class cannot…
I thought of it cause of handgunlaw.us and figured there'd have to be something like it for knives.
Good luck on the search.
Standard really, the places you would need to carry a knife the state doesn’t want you to, if you don’t rely on the state for your “safety” it’s scary as it makes them think you’ll notice how useless they are.
Also the old “concealed means concealed” comes to mind
Solid run for sure! But we’re you at or above 190BPM for a continuous 45 minutes or going above for a period of time and dipping below for a period then back up, which is what would I expect. Just very curious not trying to be an ass...
Thank you! I unfortunately live in the dirty Lew (and hate it, but only 3 more years until my youngest graduates and I am heading back down south). I will be calling my Sheriff today and a good friend who is a game warden.Read this semi monstrosity first to see if somebody had posted something like this.
I don't have a knife recommendation but I did find this.
State Knife Laws | American Knife and Tool Institute
Saw that you're in Maine.
It says some of the bigger cities (like Lewiston) have knife laws as well.Maine Knife Laws | American Knife and Tool Institute
The sparse body of Maine knife law applies to any Bowie knife, dirk, stiletto, and other such knives “usually employed in the attack on, or defense of a person.” A knife within this class cannot…
I thought of it cause of handgunlaw.us and figured there'd have to be something like it for knives.
Good luck on the search.
Yes, gr is grains not grams. I used the powder scale to weigh it since the only other scales I have are for much heavier things.
Maine Knife Laws: A Guide for Knife Carriers! (mdcreekmore.com) Here's another link that has a citation to a court case regarding dirks, daggers and Bowie knives.
So I as sitting here looking at various small knives I have which might meet the needs of @jbell daughter. Included were an early Gerber MKI (aka boot knife), an early Gerber Guardian (A Loveless design) and a relatively light custom belt knife that I have abused from spring to late fall for over fifteen years. The Gerbers fit the dirk or stiletto description which I don't think is a good place to start. The custom, with it's sheath, starts to become heavy enough that it will start to bang around if attached to running shorts. I then thought of the steak knives that are by the same maker that made the belt knife. Relatively light but a small grip which a lot of smaller knives suffer from. This short grip on smaller knives is a greater liability than most people consider. In a thrusting or fencing forward grip the butt of the knife is seated against the heel and knife edge of the hand. At the best it is unsure.
When I thought of the custom steak knives I thought of the old Gerber steak knives and from there to the old Gerber Trout and Bird knife so I dug mine out. It was gift in 1975. The knife is marked as Trout and Bird on the underside of the grip. The sheath is marked Trout and Bird on the backside of the belt loop. There is a small divot on end of the grip to clean blood from the spine of a fish after cutting through the air sac. It is simply a knife that is specifically allowed to be carried concealed by Maine knife laws.
The knife is eight plus inches long with a five inch grip and a three inch blade. The spine of the blade is sharpened about three-eights of an inch which makes for a very pointy tip. Pointy equals penetration. The knife is easy to sharpen on either a steel or a small diamond hone. It takes a razor edge. Mine has cleaned a legion of fish and birds. Breasting a game bird is like having a scalpel in your hand. The Armorhide grip offers a firm hold either wet or dry.
The knife weighs 1.5 ounces. The sheath is another .8 ounces. It's 2.3 ounces all in.
So I as sitting here looking at various small knives I have which might meet the needs of @jbell daughter. Included were an early Gerber MKI (aka boot knife), an early Gerber Guardian (A Loveless design) and a relatively light custom belt knife that I have abused from spring to late fall for over fifteen years. The Gerbers fit the dirk or stiletto description which I don't think is a good place to start. The custom, with it's sheath, starts to become heavy enough that it will start to bang around if attached to running shorts. I then thought of the steak knives that are by the same maker that made the belt knife. Relatively light but a small grip which a lot of smaller knives suffer from. This short grip on smaller knives is a greater liability than most people consider. In a thrusting or fencing forward grip the butt of the knife is seated against the heel and knife edge of the hand. At the best it is unsure.
When I thought of the custom steak knives I thought of the old Gerber steak knives and from there to the old Gerber Trout and Bird knife so I dug mine out. It was gift in 1975. The knife is marked as Trout and Bird on the underside of the grip. The sheath is marked Trout and Bird on the backside of the belt loop. There is a small divot on end of the grip to clean blood from the spine of a fish after cutting through the air sac. It is simply a knife that is specifically allowed to be carried concealed by Maine knife laws.
The knife is eight plus inches long with a five inch grip and a three inch blade. The spine of the blade is sharpened about three-eights of an inch which makes for a very pointy tip. Pointy equals penetration. The knife is easy to sharpen on either a steel or a small diamond hone. It takes a razor edge. Mine has cleaned a legion of fish and birds. Breasting a game bird is like having a scalpel in your hand. The Armorhide grip offers a firm hold either wet or dry.
The knife weighs 1.5 ounces. The sheath is another .8 ounces. It's 2.3 ounces all in.
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