Undersizing and accuracy

timelinex

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
  • May 7, 2011
    1,381
    32
    Scottsdale,Az
    General question.

    Does FL sizing and not bumping the shoulders back far enough (there is still a very hard bolt close and lift) affect pressure/accuracy?

    My initial answer would be probably not, considering NK sizing does not generally effect accuracy negatively, and its similar. However after thinking about it, I think that it could mean inconsistent bullet depth into or out of the lands (if you are seating .01 into the lands).

    Any experiences with this?
     
    HS changes would affect pressure and accuracy, but it seems like seating depth is an independent variable right? HS is base/shoulder, seating is off the ogive so you could have consistent seating depth/land engagement regardless of headspace variances.
     
    If your not bumping the shoulder back , you pulling it forward when raising the ram. Hence, actually increasing the shoulder length. I got some brass mixed up one time and the head space was .009" too much. TIGHT FIT!! I shot them just the same and had no extraction issues but accuracy was not there either. Went back upstairs, loaded up a few once fired that had been sized accordingly for that particular rifle , loaded the exact same load, walked back downstairs and it went from about an inch to just under 1/2 moa. Could have just been a fluke but I don't think that it was
     
    When one full length sizes brass, you must trim the case mouths down to Saami spec every once in a while. One potential issue with chambering undersized or (long hs) brass is camming the bolt and material moving forward and crimping the case neck. In turn this will increase pressure and you end up with a flyer.

    Not making it up, remember reading it in the Hornady reloading manual.

    Internal Ballistics - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
     
    My opinion and my opinion only. Any time you have to fight and struggle to get the bolt up or down, that is something that interferes with accuracy. But like I said, that's just my opinion.
     
    HS changes would affect pressure and accuracy, but it seems like seating depth is an independent variable right? HS is base/shoulder, seating is off the ogive so you could have consistent seating depth/land engagement regardless of headspace variances.
    I agree, your correct about the consistent land engagement, I guess the variance would be in the seating depth inside the case. Which causes different case capacities and hence difference pressures. I think the effect would be more pronounced the closer you are to full capacity with the load.

    If your not bumping the shoulder back , you pulling it forward when raising the ram. Hence, actually increasing the shoulder length. I got some brass mixed up one time and the head space was .009" too much. TIGHT FIT!! I shot them just the same and had no extraction issues but accuracy was not there either. Went back upstairs, loaded up a few once fired that had been sized accordingly for that particular rifle , loaded the exact same load, walked back downstairs and it went from about an inch to just under 1/2 moa. Could have just been a fluke but I don't think that it was
    According to a shoulder gauge, it's actually getting bumped back 2 thousands. For some reason its just not enough. I would have to hit the bolt down pretty hard a few times with my Palm, just to get it to close. I had to bump it back a full 4 or 5 thousands until there was little resistance.
    When one full length sizes brass, you must trim the case mouths down to Saami spec every once in a while. One potential issue with chambering undersized or (long hs) brass is camming the bolt and material moving forward and crimping the case neck. In turn this will increase pressure and you end up with a flyer.

    Not making it up, remember reading it in the Hornady reloading manual.

    Internal Ballistics - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
    Case trimming isn't the issue, the neck area is very long on many rifles (confirmed with a Sinclair gauge for this specific rifle)
    My opinion and my opinion only. Any time you have to fight and struggle to get the bolt up or down, that is something that interferes with accuracy. But like I said, that's just my opinion.

    We will see. It's the only change from one batch of brass to the other, and it produce erratic results(still under 1moa,but a jump from 1/2 moa, and bad velocity spreads) . I sized everything back to the needed amount and will test when I have a chance.
     
    Last edited:
    I agree, your correct about the consistent land engagement, I guess the variance would be in the seating depth inside the case. Which causes different case capacities and hence difference pressures. I think the effect would be more pronounced the closer you are to full capacity with the load.
    good point!
     
    You originally said,

    Does FL sizing and not bumping the shoulders back far enough (there is still a very hard bolt close and lift) affect pressure/accuracy?

    then you said,

    According to a shoulder gauge, it's actually getting bumped back 2 thousands. For some reason its just not enough. I would have to hit the bolt down pretty hard a few times with my Palm, just to get it to close. I had to bump it back a full 4 or 5 thousands until there was little resistance.

    so I'm confused by two things.

    1. if you are full length sizing but not bumping the shoulder, why does the shoulder gauge show a .002 reduction?
    2. if you have to pound the bolt down, something is binding on something else.

    a. The case base to shoulder length is too long. When the bolt pushes the case as far as it will go, the locking logs on the bolt just miss fitting over the lugs on the front of the receiver. You have to hammer on the bolt handle to force the bolt lugs up the receiver lugs and shorten the case in the process.

    b. The case body is too large. When you close the bolt, the case base jams into the back of the chamber. You have to hammer on the bolt because that forces the case more deeply into the chamber and forcing the case body to be smaller.

    c. There is dirt somewhere interfering with the bolt lug to chamber lug movement.

    d. The neck is really tight. You really don't want this.

    e. The rim is expanded and you are having a hard time forcing the brass into the bolt face. If you have trouble fitting the brass into your shell holder, measure the rims.

    Here is a suggestion:

    Find a tight case, one where you have to push hard on the bolt. Magic marker the case base, body, shoulder, and neck. Chamber it a couple of times. Look to see where the marker is rubbed off. That is the dimension that is wrong -- unless! the base is the place where the marker rubbed off. That means that the case was jammed into the chamber and the pounding is to rotate the bolt over around the base. In that situation, you will have to do the sizing the bumps the shoulder back .002 and repeat.

    I used to shoot my 300 win mag brass this way. Then I stopped for a couple of reasons, one practical and one tactical. First the practical. I suspect that the issue is this: the brass is chamber length or a little longer. For the cases that are chamber length, you can close the bolt but it is tight. For the cases that are longer, you have to force the bolt. How did they get longer? When that weapon fires, there is about 55,000 psi in that case. For a 300 win mag case, the case base diameter is about .532. using pi * r**2, the area of the base in about .41 sq inches. Apply 55,000 psi to that area and you get over 20,000 pounds. That force is enough to stretch the chamber a little and the brass expands to fill the space. After the shot, the brass is compressed. When you open the bolt, the case springs back by a couple of thousandths. The next time you try to chamber it, the bolt doesn't want to close. In my opinion, you don't get any advantage from this. That is my opinion, you should do what you think is best.

    Second is tactical. If I am fighting with that weapon - or even hunting - I may need to shoot rapidly. If I have trouble chambering a round, undesirable things could happen while I am looking at the gun and not at the target. I full length size almost everything. I bump shoulders between .001 and .002 off the chamber. The rounds feed smoothly and the bolt closes with just a hint of friction in the bottom one quarter of the stroke. I shoot out of a magazine. Other people may have better groups but I am happy with my setup.
     
    You originally said,



    then you said,



    so I'm confused by two things.

    1. if you are full length sizing but not bumping the shoulder, why does the shoulder gauge show a .002 reduction?
    2. if you have to pound the bolt down, something is binding on something else.

    a. The case base to shoulder length is too long. When the bolt pushes the case as far as it will go, the locking logs on the bolt just miss fitting over the lugs on the front of the receiver. You have to hammer on the bolt handle to force the bolt lugs up the receiver lugs and shorten the case in the process.

    b. The case body is too large. When you close the bolt, the case base jams into the back of the chamber. You have to hammer on the bolt because that forces the case more deeply into the chamber and forcing the case body to be smaller.

    c. There is dirt somewhere interfering with the bolt lug to chamber lug movement.

    d. The neck is really tight. You really don't want this.

    e. The rim is expanded and you are having a hard time forcing the brass into the bolt face. If you have trouble fitting the brass into your shell holder, measure the rims.

    Here is a suggestion:

    Find a tight case, one where you have to push hard on the bolt. Magic marker the case base, body, shoulder, and neck. Chamber it a couple of times. Look to see where the marker is rubbed off. That is the dimension that is wrong -- unless! the base is the place where the marker rubbed off. That means that the case was jammed into the chamber and the pounding is to rotate the bolt over around the base. In that situation, you will have to do the sizing the bumps the shoulder back .002 and repeat.

    I used to shoot my 300 win mag brass this way. Then I stopped for a couple of reasons, one practical and one tactical. First the practical. I suspect that the issue is this: the brass is chamber length or a little longer. For the cases that are chamber length, you can close the bolt but it is tight. For the cases that are longer, you have to force the bolt. How did they get longer? When that weapon fires, there is about 55,000 psi in that case. For a 300 win mag case, the case base diameter is about .532. using pi * r**2, the area of the base in about .41 sq inches. Apply 55,000 psi to that area and you get over 20,000 pounds. That force is enough to stretch the chamber a little and the brass expands to fill the space. After the shot, the brass is compressed. When you open the bolt, the case springs back by a couple of thousandths. The next time you try to chamber it, the bolt doesn't want to close. In my opinion, you don't get any advantage from this. That is my opinion, you should do what you think is best.

    Second is tactical. If I am fighting with that weapon - or even hunting - I may need to shoot rapidly. If I have trouble chambering a round, undesirable things could happen while I am looking at the gun and not at the target. I full length size almost everything. I bump shoulders between .001 and .002 off the chamber. The rounds feed smoothly and the bolt closes with just a hint of friction in the bottom one quarter of the stroke. I shoot out of a magazine. Other people may have better groups but I am happy with my setup.

    I'll try to clear a couple things up.... I always FL sized and bump the shoulder back .002 which has always worked in all my rifles.

    I did this for this brass, except the bolt close was very hard. Which is why I said it's under sized. I tried the marker trick earlier and it scratched nowhere except on the base from the ejector sliding down and pushing on it.

    After more testing, it seems I have to bump the shoulder back a full .005 for the bolt to close properly. Hence that's why I considered them undersized in the original post.
     
    I'll try to clear a couple things up.... I always FL sized and bump the shoulder back .002 which has always worked in all my rifles.

    I did this for this brass, except the bolt close was very hard. Which is why I said it's under sized. I tried the marker trick earlier and it scratched nowhere except on the base from the ejector sliding down and pushing on it.

    After more testing, it seems I have to bump the shoulder back a full .005 for the bolt to close properly. Hence that's why I considered them undersized in the original post.

    If you needed any additional bump would not your marker have been rubbed off at the shoulder?
    Is this a belted case?