US Optics anti-cant device, making it right

[trilogymac]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: softcock</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> all I do is put them on the Rail along with leveling the Erector & it all been GTG.
plus, I always drop a plumb out @ 100 yrd to check the Reticule & co-witness of the bubble-level to the Leveled Erector & every usoptics swing-arm bubble has been right-on with my rifles . I never have had any problems with the swing-arm design & them being made incorrectly .
They all have been 'right-on' in the co-witness of my scopes Reticule/ erector systems .

. </div></div>

This method works for me as well.
I find it to be a very useful tool.

 

[softcock]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

yes it is a useful tool . (folding bubble) It folds/tucks away out in the field also which really is it's strong point .
But it is NOT for everybody & you can see that by reading this Thread they are a Luv or Hate piece of equipment .

I never use them much @ all til I get out past 600 & out in the hills . Especially when shooting KD targets with angle & terrain that is different mix of slopping hills . I swing it out & I find that my ( instincts for level plane ) are usually NOT as good as I think they are . Plus it's all about being consistent with follow-up shots also in this type of terrain on the long shots . & the swing-arm bubble is helpful with that with me .
.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: partisan1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mentioned my USO bubble level was off and others on this site claimed I was citing blasphemy! When I called USO they claimed the same. I ended up tossing the $90 level in my box of extra stuff I don't want to throw away but can't use. My USO scope has had no issues so I just drive on. </div></div>

PM me if you still have it I'll buy it from you...

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

I think mccrazy2 beat you to it
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: partisan1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mentioned my USO bubble level was off and others on this site claimed I was citing blasphemy! When I called USO they claimed the same. I ended up tossing the $90 level in my box of extra stuff I don't want to throw away but can't use. My USO scope has had no issues so I just drive on. </div></div>

PM me if you still have it I'll buy it from you...</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maccrazy2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: partisan1911</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I mentioned my USO bubble level was off and others on this site claimed I was citing blasphemy! When I called USO they claimed the same. I ended up tossing the $90 level in my box of extra stuff I don't want to throw away but can't use. My USO scope has had no issues so I just drive on. </div></div>
$50 shipped and I will take it.</div></div>

 

[Ffej]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

The main issue customers run into when using the swivel style ACD is they do not tighten the top screw, which holds the level in place and keeps it level, to the proper torque specification. If this screw is either too tight or not tight enough, the level will not read properly. In addition, these ACDs will only be level when mounted on a Picatinny rail. Placing them on a table does not put the level in the proper position. Tightening the level's side clamp to a Picatinny rail is required to give an accurate reading.

We have developed a solution to the sensitivity of the top screw on these swivel style ACDs by installing a small detent into the main body of the level, which provides the level housing a consistent "return to level" position. There will no longer be any wonder whether or not the screw is tightened down to the proper torque setting. This new system should also address the issue that One-Eyed Jack described, with the level's tendency to fold under recoil when mounted on the right hand side of the rifle. Here is a picture of the new system:

I feel that the OP did nothing wrong by voicing his opinion on a product that did not meet his expectations. Posts like this help consumers make educated decisions when shopping for new equipment and assist manufacturers like U.S. Optics refine their products so they can better meet the user's needs. I look at customer criticism, good or bad, as an important tool in the evolution of our products and the development of new ones.

 

[trilogymac]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Jeff,
How did you get that bubble to show level when the unit is cocked in the picture?

Trilogymac

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">maybe ill show my ass here but cant you just adjust the level on the gun til i reads true when the gun is level? </div></div>

I'll reply to these in order, you're first.

No it cannot be adjusted it is a weaver style device that clamps to the picatinny rail. Wich was the whole point of me wanting this particular level. It is not bulky and for me it is just the right place for me to see with my non dominant eye when I'm behind the rifle.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are we sure we are conducting a proper test? Placing the USO level on another level does not seem likely to produce valid results. The only surface on the USO that the bubble will match is the flat on the inside of the rail mount area. The outer body of the level is not required to be square and indeed I would not expect it to be so.

To test, you either need to mount it and level the rail surface, or have a square rail piece you could mount it on then place that on the level. Just using a plain scope rail may be invalid as well, unless you test it for squareness first.

I've had good results from mine, both fixed and folding. It's certainly possible these are bad, but the description of the test does not give me confidence in that assesment.

</div></div>

You do bring up a good point. I still have level number two. I could hang the 20 pound plumb bob I use for leveling scopes and place the USO level on the picatinny rail and see if it reads level.

I wouldn't think there is a significant amount of metal thickness difference between the left side and the right, but I could measure with a micrometer (for shits and giggles) and then conduct the test mentioned above.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy crap...an eigth of a bubble out?!

You definitely wont hit shit if its that far out!

Did you make sure your rail if true the the bore/scope line?

Seriously, perfect is nice, but consistent is what is important. By its very nature, the swivel level will have a small bit of slop in it, it will still do what it is designed to do.

If one is way out, send it back, but really, an eigth of a bubble is pretty good. </div></div>

I disagree. I have levels I rely on to do steel construction that are I-beam aluminum and have a magnetic strip to hold them to my work that didn't cost but a fraction of the USO level because they were not for the shooting industry. They're damn accurate, so yes an eight of a bubble out is too damn much!

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Abizdafuzz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless you leveled your 4' level with survey equipment and/or a laser and used a squared and trued base with squared and trued blocks and used proper mounting I'd say you can't even read a very good 1/8 of a bubble...I bet the 4' is out more than that on its own because the larger bubble is going to have more inaccuracies than the smaller one to begin with. But I would say if the swivel one has you worried get a fixed one and if that's too much of an issue then try shooting without one and see if you can hit something... </div></div>

Did you read my first post? I leveled the 4' level and then roated it 180 degrees and placed it back on the stands. It read level each direction, therby verifying that the 4' level is accurate enough for this test. To suggest that I can't read a very good 1/8 of a bubble is purely non-sense. I've been reading a level for a very long time, often on a daily or at least a weekly basis so I'm sure my interpretation skills are very good. And by the way the bubble of the USO is signifcantly smaller than the index lines, allowing slop in interpretation. Hell my 4' level bubble fits very well inside the index lines and it cost 1/3 of the USO price.

Try shooting without one and see if I can hit something? Within the last 3 weeks I've made hits from 100 yards to 1000 and a portion of those were for points at the Mesquite Creek Precision Rifle Match. So it appears that I can hit something without the level. I am just trying to improve my shooting by adding a level to the tool box. And if the tool does not do what it is supposed to do then it isn't worth anything.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I prefer the fixed USO (actually I prefer the internal ACD), but I have used the swivels just fine.

Halligan-I appreciate your candor and honest sharing of what your experence is. My question is this-since USO pretty much stands behind anything with their name on it, have you contacted them? </div></div>

Nosir, I have not contacted USO. Maybe I'll do that before sending number two back to Midway.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: softcock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey the bubble can be & read where ever it wants on the swing-frame & it Does not matter .
ITS A BUBBLE that is in a swing-arm AND THAT'S ALL IT IS .
It is NOT A LEVEL . 'until' it Co-Witness the Erector . until then it is NOTHING but a bubble in a swing-arm .

Mount the swing-arm Bubble Level off your Scope Mount .
Put the Bubble in the level between the Lines .
Remove the cover of the Elevation knob & remove the Turret knob & Put a Spirit Directly Level on top the Erector .
Then Rotate the Scope in the Rings till Spirit level bubble is level .

NOW Both the Erector & the Swing-Arm level are on the Same note . The Swing-Arm Level is the Co-Whitnes to the level plane of the Erector system of your scope of choice .
. </div></div>

Putting a level on the elevation turret has screwed me before. When mounting a scope I level the scope base with a 6" level my shimming the legs of the bipod on a plate steel table. I then lay the scope in the rings, sight through the scope to a 20 pound plumb bob 50 yards away (cuz a plumb bob can't help but be level). As long as I didn't disturb the rifle, the rail it level horizontally and the scope's elevation reticle is level vertically (90 degrees from each other, level-level).

Now, I expect that when I mount a ninety dollar level to my rail it will actually be level. My equipment is sound, I'm trying to reduce the human error portion.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lrs50bmg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With all due respect, leveling the scope erector tube/reticle to co-witness the USO swivel level does not cut it when you get out there at ELR distances. Not having the scope base, scope reticle and bubble level on on exactly the same plane will introduce error and inconsistencies. You are simply making yourself feel better about it. If the vertical reticle is not perfectly centered over the centerline of the bore, you will introduce horizontal error as you add elevation. Granted, while it is difficult to alter or adjust the "trueness" of the scope base, I believe it is likely a smaller source of error than canting a scope to match a un-true bubble level. I have nothing but respect for USO, but both of the USO swivel models I have were not true to the plane of the scope base. Therefore I decided to use other products. A great idea, just didn't work in practice for me. </div></div>

You're saying what I'm saying just in different words.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems from some of these posts people are trying to level their reticle with this bubble level?

I only use it to make sure my entire is rifle is as level as possible so that my windage holds are more accurate. I didn't think it was intended for anything else. </div></div>

You also have to mention the fact when one is dialing 9 to 10 MILs elevation (such as myself) that few degrees of canting at the rifle can equate to a long ways @ 1000. All shooters are fighting the wind anyway, at that distance. I'm just trying to reduce another problem induced by the shooter.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff@USO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main issue customers run into when using the swivel style ACD is they do not tighten the top screw, which holds the level in place and keeps it level, to the proper torque specification. If this screw is either too tight or not tight enough, the level will not read properly. In addition, these ACDs will only be level when mounted on a Picatinny rail. Placing them on a table does not put the level in the proper position. Tightening the level's side clamp to a Picatinny rail is required to give an accurate reading.

We have developed a solution to the sensitivity of the top screw on these swivel style ACDs by installing a small detent into the main body of the level, which provides the level housing a consistent "return to level" position. There will no longer be any wonder whether or not the screw is tightened down to the proper torque setting. This new system should also address the issue that One-Eyed Jack described, with the level's tendency to fold under recoil when mounted on the right hand side of the rifle. Here is a picture of the new system:

I feel that the OP did nothing wrong by voicing his opinion on a product that did not meet his expectations. Posts like this help consumers make educated decisions when shopping for new equipment and assist manufacturers like U.S. Optics refine their products so they can better meet the user's needs. I look at customer criticism, good or bad, as an important tool in the evolution of our products and the development of new ones. </div></div>

Thank you for taking constructive criticism. Now can you help me to swap with USO for the newer model that actually works?

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halligan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I prefer the fixed USO (actually I prefer the internal ACD), but I have used the swivels just fine.

Halligan-I appreciate your candor and honest sharing of what your experence is. My question is this-since USO pretty much stands behind anything with their name on it, have you contacted them? </div></div>

Nosir, I have not contacted USO. Maybe I'll do that before sending number two back to Midway. </div></div>

Two (2) pages of this and you haven't even contacted John or his staff at USO, but you are on number 2 through Midway. Wow, you do know the definition of insanity don't you?

 

[Ffej]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Halligan,

I would be happy to switch out the level you have for a new version. I apologize for not offering that in my original post. I'll follow up with our machine shop tomorrow morning on the status of the new models. I'll send you an e-mail tomorrow and let you know where we're at.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

The definition you are reffering to- doing the same thing repeditivly and expecting a different result.

I've been in Haz-Mat technition class for the last two weeks from 8 am to 5 pm that involves an hour and half drive each way. Would someone answer the phone at 7pm, at USO? Or on Sunday? I'm not being a smart ass, I really don't know, I've never dealt with USO.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff@USO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Halligan,

I would be happy to switch out the level you have for a new version. I apologize for not offering that in my original post. I'll follow up with our machine shop tomorrow morning on the status of the new models. I'll send you an e-mail tomorrow and let you know where we're at. </div></div>

That's great Jeff! I'm about to send a PM to you with my e-mail address. I really want to use the product, but I'd like for it to be accurate. And apparently USO would like to make it right.

 

[Witch_Doctor]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halligan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The definition you are reffering to- doing the same thing repeditivly and expecting a different result.

I've been in Haz-Mat technition class for the last two weeks from 8 am to 5 pm that involves an hour and half drive each way. Would someone answer the phone at 7pm, at USO? Or on Sunday? I'm not being a smart ass, I really don't know, I've never dealt with USO. </div></div>

Glad to see its resolved for you. By the way, USO is based out of California, so they are 2 hours behind you, and as seen above, they are on this forum quite frequently with great CS.

 

[45.308]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

My USO swivel broke over a year ago and I still sit without a new one.

The swivel part is useless as the arm butts up against the erector housing of my SN. Not sure if this a one issue or not but the fixed would have been less nuggets.

It did seem level though.

Good luck!

 

[partisan1911]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

I don't have 100 posts yet or I would gladly sell mine.

The problem is you can make it level when you first mount it by using another level. By the first time you swivel it closed and back open it reads different so you have to have another level mounted to ensure it reads correctly. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Does the offer from USO to swap out for the improved version go for other disappointed users? When I first got the level I called USO and it was explained to me that it works exactly as it was supposed to which was to ensure the receiver was level since the scope reticle is level with the receiver.

 

[Ffej]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Anyone who has one (or more) of our current swivel ACDs can contact me and I will be more than happy to exchange them for the new version. Since this is a new design we are looking at at least two weeks for the new versions to be ready to ship.

 

[SScott]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Great CS, I just E-mailed to be included on the list for the new version .
Thanks, SScott

 

[sr15match]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

I'm glad to see that USO continues to look at and improve even the smallest of accessories / products. I've had a couple swivel levels and I often wondered exactly how close they really were to "true". Sometimes they just didn't seem to set into place quite right or when tightening the knob down it just didn't feel right.

I like the fact that continued improvements are made on products wether from customer "complaints" / suggestions or just someone back at the home office thinking up new ideas. Forward progress is what keeps companies going, not just setting on there hands and enjoying the ride of past success.

Todd

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: US Optics-customer service rocks

USO is some good stuff from great people.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: US Optics-customer service rocks

Thank you Jeff ... nice to see USO is looking out for us.

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff@USO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who has one (or more) of our current swivel ACDs can contact me and I will be more than happy to exchange them for the new version. Since this is a new design we are looking at at least two weeks for the new versions to be ready to ship. </div></div>

I'll be up for that.
Funny thing. I have used it for a while now and just accepted that it was reading true. Now this thread has me wondering. I'll spend all day tomorrow trying to check it out. Oh well, it will be raining any how.

 

[Toddcal13]

Re: US Optics-customer service rocks

Love USO... Great guys that always stand by their products...

 

[shoepop]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeff@USO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who has one (or more) of our current swivel ACDs can contact me and I will be more than happy to exchange them for the new version. Since this is a new design we are looking at at least two weeks for the new versions to be ready to ship. </div></div>

Mighty kind of you Jeff, an offer I can't refuse.

 

[Hoofy]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Since Jeff is making everything right for everyone, I think the title of the thread needs to change.

Thanks Jeff.

 

[drmarc]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

What Lindy said!

I still use training wheels.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: US Optics-customer service rocks

I agree.

 

[BigSoundRacing]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

I have the US Optics solid anti-cant - they work great once adjusted to the rifle.

 

[bigsky23]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Sounds more than fair of Jeff.

 

[Long_Action]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

FWIW I pulled my Fitty cal out and checked the gun, USO scope and level.... the level checks out but now I have a hernia from my 40 lb gun!

 

[kentactic]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

do you guys have inner ear problems? lol... if you cant tell whats up and whats down shooting well is the least of your worries.

see my signature for further info

-your fellow newbie

 

[kentactic]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To paraphrase an old saying about watches, a guy with one level knows what's level. A guy with two levels will never be quite sure.

My experience has been that a level can be a valuable resource is a situation where one is shooting off a surface with a side-to-side angle, whether right-to-left or left-to-right. Otherwise, one is going to get the rifle where it <span style="font-style: italic">looks</span> level, whether it is or not.

Consistency is more important than accuracy.
</div></div>

wouldnt always thinking its level a certain way make for consistency? assuming you make the same error every time. i feel pretty confident i can level the reticle quite precicely every time under what ever situation by eye sight alone. ive tested this in the past by having a guy set a level on the turret once i say its level. pretty good so far.

but then i tried it with him and he was WAY off... so i guess it depends on the person aswell.

thoughts?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Having been a grade foreman for the better part of the past ten years I know myself, and unless I have a true level reference in my field of view I know better than to trust my eyes.

For example-I mounted my USO with the internal anti cant a few weeks ago. I mounted it with feeler guages so the scope's erector housing was parallel to the scope base. I was in a hurry nad couldn't find the torpedo levels I usually use.

When I got to the range I tought for sure that the internal level was off....the target frames were askew, the berm at 500yds looked crooked, and I just plain thought my rifle was canted big time.
Then I looked a the public gongs hanging on their supports. Damned if the chain hanging every one of them din't line up perfectly with my crosshairs, and I mean perfectly!
I loked my bipod on one as a plumb and ran the elevation and it was locked on perfect.

My eyes-the weakest link inthe equation, just ahead of my trigger finger on the "things that are usually wrong about my shooting" list.....

 

[Wade]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

The error depends on where you are shooting, so it will not be consistent. I know of two ranges in particular where all shooters without a level or not paying attentionto theirs will need extra right windage.

 

[partisan1911]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Must be nice not to have to use any kind of levels to set up a rifle or shoot extended distances. My uncalibrated eyes require a little assistance to ensure my junk is aligned properly. No doubt it is important to verify drops at all ranges but I like to think that it is nice to have your equipment as ready as possible to ensure getting those drops requires leaving the windage knob for its intended purpose and not to correct errors. I guess I need to get off the ground and use the benches at the range.

 

[Falar]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

So how do we get in on the list for the replacement? Just send in the ones we have now?

 

[Garvey]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

The title of this thread has been changed. Jeff of US Optics is stepping up and correcting the problem of his company's product. After this experience I wish I could afford a USO rifle scope

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Has anyone heard from Jeff at USO. I am sending my unit back today (as instructed) and was going to put it to the attention of Jeff. Has anyone else done that? or heard anything?

 

[Quickdraw40]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

tag. I have two and I'll be buying two more soon.

 

[Deisel]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

I sent 3 back to US Optics last week.

 

[shoepop]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apophas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone heard from Jeff at USO. I am sending my unit back today (as instructed) and was going to put it to the attention of Jeff. Has anyone else done that? or heard anything? </div></div>

I heard from him last week. I sent in two Friday attn Jeff.

 

[Strip Poker 388]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Is there any diff between the fixed Holland and the Vortex Bubble Level ????

 

[Falar]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Apophas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has anyone heard from Jeff at USO. I am sending my unit back today (as instructed) and was going to put it to the attention of Jeff. Has anyone else done that? or heard anything? </div></div>

I heard from him last week. I sent in two Friday attn Jeff. </div></div>

Sending it back attention to Jeff is all it takes to get a new one then?

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Avoid US Optics anti-cant device

Hey guys I see that you sent your anti-cant devices in like myself -- has anyone received the new ones yet or heard anything from Jeff at USO? Just not feeling the Love right now as it has been 2 months.