Varget Temp sensativity

[Bucksquirelly]

Anyone else experience fairly significant temperature sensitivity with Varget or do I just have a strange batch? Ive always heard Varget is a pretty stable powder but today at the range I noticed the colder the rounds got the farther off zero they were. The first 5 shot group with room temp rounds were right on zero. Each subsequent group moved farther and farther to the left as the rounds got colder. Ambient temp was around 35 degrees. If I kept the rounds in my pocket or rolled them in my hands for a bit before I fired them they were right back at zero.

Ive experienced temp sensitivity with other powders before but never quite this much. With the coldest rounds the shots were off as much as 3.5 inches. And that was horizontal not vertical like Ive seen before. If each round fired in the group was the same temp they grouped like normal albeit far off zero. It just kind of puzzles me because everything Ive read about how stable Varget is, which was one of the main reasons I tried it in the first place. Accuracy out of my Stevens 308 is outstanding, better than any other powder Ive tried, consistently grouping .75 moa sometimes less. The load is 45.5g Varget, 168 SMK, Federal 210 primers in Rem brass.

 

[Top Cat]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

That is an odd one...I would suspect some other issue like bedding or a scope/mount issue, or a different forend pressure with the Stevens stock. Make sure your action is seated and the screws are even and the barrel is truly free-floating when the forend is on a rest and try again.

TC

 

[Rafael]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

3.5" at what distance?

 

[Country]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

It does not sound like the usual performance of varget so I would check out , barrel heating and bedding etc as Top Cat suggests as being a possible cause .
Also if the verticle in the group is ok but the horizontal iss of 3.5 inch then it could be wind catching you.

 

[Bucksquirelly]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rafael</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3.5" at what distance? </div></div>


Sorry, 3.5" at 100 yards. I shot 7 five shot groups at 100 then 4 five shot groups at 200 yards testing whether or not the temperature was the issue. I am sure of it at this point. Each group fired with cold rounds was off the zero point and grouped normally around .75 moa, and as I said above, the colder the rounds got the farther off zero the groups were with the coldest rounds grouping almost 3.5 inches to the left. While I was firing a cold round group I would have 5 rounds in my pocket warming then I would roll each round in my hands before firing it. The warm rounds always grouped right back at my zero point. I let the barrel cool sufficiently after each shot as I normally do. Through my own modifications the factory Stevens stock is much stiffer than normal and free floated by a large margin and I was shooting off a bi-pod anyway. I'm positive the problem is not the gun nor the scope or scope mounts. Like I said Ive seen temp variations before with other powders but never quite this much and its usually vertical not horizontal. I originally worked up the load back in the early fall when ambient temp was around 65-70 degrees and zeroed my gun then. I have shot the same load several times since then but never when it was this cold and never had the rounds exposed to temps for long enough to get cold. Wind wasn't blowing and when it was it was a very light breeze at zero value so Ive thrown that out as a possibility.

 

[shooter308]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

i was wondering what was going on too as I love Varget. Then I saw you had a Steven's 308. I say trash that thing by taking whatever loss you have too and save up for a good rifle.

Something that is so beloved to most that shoot it like Varget shouldn't be questioned when firing it from a pitiful subpar rifle.

 

[Bucksquirelly]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was wondering what was going on too as I love Varget. Then I saw you had a Steven's 308. I say trash that thing by taking whatever loss you have too and save up for a good rifle.

Something that is so beloved to most that shoot it like Varget shouldn't be questioned when firing it from a pitiful subpar rifle. </div></div>


LOL, thanks for giving me someone to laugh at today, I needed that.

 

[GCMxVeGeTa]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

Did the powder get wet from the humidity or something?

All I use is Varget and I've shot from 18*F - 75*F with no problems...saves a LOT of ammo from not re-zeroing.

 

[Bucksquirelly]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GCMxVeGeTa</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did the powder get wet from the humidity or something?

All I use is Varget and I've shot from 18*F - 75*F with no problems...saves a LOT of ammo from not re-zeroing.

</div></div>

No it did'nt get wet or anything of the sort, they were fresh rounds I loaded the night before, went straight from my reloading room to the range. The stability Ive heard about is the main reason I tried Varget in the first place. Come to think of it the first loads I developed were shot in varying temps of about 20 degrees but never quite this cold. They always shot to the same point whether it was 50 degrees or 70 degrees. I checked the lot numbers on the old powder jug and the new one and the original loads used a different lot number of powder. I guess I just got a bad lot, the accuracy is the same as the previous lot though.

 

[MTETM]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

You are not crazy and the Steven's isn't the issue, Great Rifle...

The Varget does change as the temps change...at least from my data they do.

I use it for some 6XC loads and heavy 223AI

-25 to -5 to 10 to 40....Changes...40 to 90 I haven't notice much change.
I can't say that I have experienced or seen the horizontal issues you are seeing though.

I have to increase my loads to maintain velocity and group consistency when it get cold. I have yet to find a powder that doesn't need some adjustment when it gets cold....and to me 40 isn't cold.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

i have a question how are you measuring the temp of the cartriges? if you loaded them took them to the range they should all be the same temp? do you have them in an ice box? when you have fired your rifle and heated the bore if the round is in there for a short period of time it is up to temperature anyway. i sujjest their is another issue. it could be just coincidence that the wind changed as you changed your ammo and blew you further as the rifle supposidly grouped with all rounds.

Varget is one of the most temp sensative powders you can get we shoot it from your 40's to 110's and have no issues at all. it is great powder but at very low temps it can drop a little but this is usualy because of the external air pressure requiring more velocity to match the ballistics not the powder.

 

[Bucksquirelly]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

I did not measure the temp of the rounds that day I was at the range but this evening I did a little experiment with an laser thermometer to see exactly what kind of temps I was dealing with. It was right around the same temp today as it was when I was at the range. I took 20 rounds from inside and set them outside on my porch and put 10 rounds in my pocket while I was doing some yard work. When I was at the range the rounds sat for about 30-40 mins before I started to shoot my 308, so I left the rounds sit outside for the a little over half an hour. The rounds that were exposed to ambient temps of 33 degrees averaged 38 degrees with a range of 2 degrees plus or minus. The rounds in my pocket were kept in there for roughly 10 minutes, again the same as when I was at the range, then I rolled each one in my hand for about 30-45 seconds. The average temp of those was around 74 degrees with a 4 degree spread. Overall that's a 36 degree difference.

Again I will reiterate that I am certain the gun and scope/mounts is not the problem, it was very consistent with each group shot, cold rounds grouped left, warm rounds grouped at zero. I fired many groups to eliminate variables and again there was no wind at the bench or at the 200 yard marker. All groups were sub moa, with the exception of 2 groups in which I had flyers that were very much my fault. I also let the barrel cool between shots as I normally do when shooting groups.

 

[Fatelvis]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

3.5" @ 100 yds is not the powder. There is something else causing that much variation.

 

[Country]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bucksquirelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I did not measure the temp of the rounds that day I was at the range but this evening I did a little experiment with an laser thermometer to see exactly what kind of temps I was dealing with. It was right around the same temp today as it was when I was at the range. I took 20 rounds from inside and set them outside on my porch and put 10 rounds in my pocket while I was doing some yard work. When I was at the range the rounds sat for about 30-40 mins before I started to shoot my 308, so I left the rounds sit outside for the a little over half an hour. The rounds that were exposed to ambient temps of 33 degrees averaged 38 degrees with a range of 2 degrees plus or minus. The rounds in my pocket were kept in there for roughly 10 minutes, again the same as when I was at the range, then I rolled each one in my hand for about 30-45 seconds. The average temp of those was around 74 degrees with a 4 degree spread. Overall that's a 36 degree difference.

Again I will reiterate that I am certain the gun and scope/mounts is not the problem, it was very consistent with each group shot, cold rounds grouped left, warm rounds grouped at zero. I fired many groups to eliminate variables and again there was no wind at the bench or at the 200 yard marker. All groups were sub moa, with the exception of 2 groups in which I had flyers that were very much my fault. I also let the barrel cool between shots as I normally do when shooting groups. </div></div>
You are a very lucky man that can go to the range each time and not experience any wind .
I don't think I have ever been to the range in 40 years and had a perfectly still day. Maybe once or twice only.
Did you have wind flags up at 200?
What you need to do to qualify this situation is try the same test in another gun that has a history of accuracy. Then if the same thing happens the same way it shows a more believable result as its not just one gun.
I have been using varget for many years and don't see this problem and I shoot the same loads winter and summer .
There is another possibility . Is the powder in your can actually ( AR2208) Varget made by ADI in Australia ?
Is it possible that due to failing supplies recently that other powder may have been substituted that looks like varget but may not be made with ADI's patented technology . Hogden owns , Winchester and IMR powder factories. But it don't own ADI!

There is also another issue and that is powder position in the case. Because you a rolling rounds around and such if you have a powder load that has some space left in the case it could be in a different position for different groups of shots.
I can't say that it would produce only horizontal though and I can't see 3.5 inch either.
I think in reality if this was a real common issue with varget
many other shooters would be seeing it also and varget would not have the good reputation it has.
However stranger things have happened and I never say never. It would be good if you could get another shooter with another gun to try and reproduce it. Maybe fire just one shot from a dead cold barrel and then the other shot from a dead cold barrel .
Alternate this way and if two seperate groups appear all shots in each group with the same temp ammo then you may have something.
However I don't think you will.

 

[Bucksquirelly]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

Yes I had flags at 100,200 and 300 yards. And I never said its windless each time I go to the range, but that day in particular there was not enough wind most of the time to make the flags move much, and when there was it was a light breeze and was at zero value. As I stated in a post above I fired a total of 11 five shot groups. 6 with cold rounds,5 with warm rounds. Its quite a coincidence that all 6 groups fired with cold rounds grouped to the left and the warm rounds grouped on zero. 3.5 inches was the farthest but most were about 1.5 to 2 inches. To group that far off it would have had to been a pretty stiff wind and there was none. I was also shooting my .17 hmr and at 100 and 200 yards the groups were dead center on zero and even a light wind blows the 17 grain bullet all over the place.

I have only gone through 2 lbs of Varget so far, each can was a different lot number and I bought both from the local wal-mart. I have no idea what the powder is supposed to look like but both looked the same, a kind of green color and extruded, so I have no idea if it was actually the right powder. I sure hope it was because that was the load data I was going off of. I never thought it was a common issue being as how much I read about it being very stable, I was posting to see if anyone else had experienced the same thing. I think some people are taking it as a slam against varget which it is not, I like the powder for the accuracy and the velocities it produces and don't plan on switching. I just have to assume I got a bad/unusual lot. I don't think its that much of a stretch to believe a powder company could produce a batch that's different from normal. Ive experienced slightly different velocities with Imr powder of different lot numbers. I have another Savage in 308 that I plan on testing the same load in, I'll see if it does the same thing in that gun. Its not really a big deal or problem for me because I don't hunt with the gun. I have 120 rounds left and I'm gonna shoot every one of them.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

Chrono data would be nice to have, another factor to consider. I've never shot with Varget, however I have 1lb that I just picked up, and some 175 smk's on the way for me to test. I have seen several reports on it's temperature stability, and it's impressive, and that's the reason that i'm going to give it a shot. It is quite odd that you are getting a spread between warm and cold groups like that, you seem to have isolated one factor which causes the group separation, however now the cause of the separation needs to be figured out if it's "couldn't" be the ammo itself.

If you have a friend that's a decent shooter, have him shoot your rifle with the warm/cold rounds and see if he experiences the same POI shifts. If it does, you eliminated the shooter (scientifically that is).

Do you have any other loads that you've tested, and could put together to duplicate the tests foundations with another powder? Even the same powder different bullet? There are too many things you can do to test and eliminate variables, but either way it's a screwy deal you have going on with your rifle.

BTW, don't let others tell you that your rifle is junk. Not all of us have the means to save up for a "real rifle". Many of us make do with what's available within' our budgets, and most of the time we're very successful at doing quite well with our budget rifles.

Branden

 

[artee]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

1. Post the Lot Numbers of your 1st and 2nd "cans" of VarGet
2. It would take 45 mph of Cross Wind to get 3.5 inch of displacement---lets FORGET he can't tell the diff between Calm and that!
3. How long are you waitin between shots? What does the barrel feel like? Did you ALTERNATE your "Warm" round and "Cold" round groups? Did you give Extra time between groups OVER the time interval between shoots IN a group?
4. Chrono data would really tell you a lot. It would be an indication of what's happening to the pressures between shots and Cold/Warm groups

I lived in the "east" and "West". I can believe a CALM day at the range, and understand how a "Westerner" would be incredulous. Since your rifle is fairly new and you don't really know it, and the POI shift is MASSIVE, I lean toward a rifle issue. Item 4 in the above list will go a long ways toward answering that, as well as careful attention to item 3. Yes, VarGet has that greenish yellowish cast to it. If the kernals from both cans look alike, that's a fair ways to saying "same". But a Different powder (and VarGet has had this issue in the past, and a recall) in the 2nd can is possible--with a rifle issue.

Edited to say: I thought you had said at some point that you got this rifle last fall. I don't see that going back now. Don't have the time to reread everything very closely, so maybe this is a very familiar rifle that you've shot through ALL seasons before...

 

[shadow4]

Re: Varget Temp sensativity

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fatelvis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3.5" @ 100 yds is not the powder. There is something else causing that much variation. </div></div>

+1

Been using Varget for YEARS! I've loaded several <span style="text-decoration: underline">thousands</span> of rounds with it. The problem you are having is not the Varget. When I do load development with Varget I can go through almost 2 grains of powder difference in charge weights and not see more than 1/2" in point of impact in relation to the aiming point. I just used it again to develop a load for my 6.5L. charge weights from 36.5gr all the way to 38.9gr impacted in the same area +/- 1/4" (probably me). That's 150+fps difference in velocity all impacting in the same area at 100 yards.

Before claiming temperature sensitivity get a chrony and test out the theory first. Even then you'll have variables that are hard to control (light conditions, battery strength, are on 100% in-line while shooting across it, are you shooting though the exact same area from day to day, ect, ect)