Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

[dtibbals]

I just started loading 308 with 175g Sierra BTHP, RL-15 powder (43g to start) Federal Gold Medal Match Primer and winchester brass (new). I am seeing no pressure signs at all.

I have a 20" barrel 5R rifling and at 10 feet from muzzle my 10 shot average was 2,525 FPS. With an iPhone app this shows at 1000 yards I should still be at 1100 FPS.

Ammo was at room temperature, was about 38 deg out. I figure in the summer my velocity might be slightly higher.

Should I increase my powder a bit for more velocity or am I gtg? I am taking a class in May that requires an 1 MOA or better rifle (this one is 1/2 MOA or better) and capable of shots out to 1200 yards.

Thanks for the help!

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Just some questions before I say much ...
1. Did you work a load up to 43.0 grains?
2. Did you perform a Ladder or OCW test as part of the work up?
3. How accurate is your current load now?
The reason for these questions is a load, i.e., powder/bullet combination must be optimized for your gun. Your goal should be to attain the most accurate load with a given combination and then test it to the ranges you intend to shoot.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Not trying to hijack, but this fits right in with a question I had upon my return from the range today. I found two loads that both shoot very well, one averages at 2555 and the other at 2608. Basically 42.8 gr and 43.8 gr of varget under 178 Amax, lapua brass and Fed match primers. Both very consistent speeds and sub 1/2 moa.

Bit windy today, but best 5-shot group came from the 43.8 gr loading and measured .298". But had a smaller one with the 42.8 loading till I pulled my last shot making it .549", but the first four shots measured .102".

So what do folks look for. Is 2525-2550 fps sufficient, or is there benefit to the faster 2608 fps or more? Is the answer different between the 175 SMK's and 178 Amax's?

I thought I had seen a scientific sounding explanation for sending the 178's at or above 2600fps.

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just some questions before I say much ...
1. Did you work a load up to 43.0 grains?
2. Did you perform a Ladder or OCW test as part of the work up?
3. How accurate is your current load now?
The reason for these questions is a load, i.e., powder/bullet combination must be optimized for your gun. Your goal should be to attain the most accurate load with a given combination and then test it to the ranges you intend to shoot. </div></div>

1) No I didn't, started there from advise of a friend
2) I did not..hate to sound dumb but not sure what either of those are but would really like to learn
3) do to weather and time I only shot over a chrono and didn't check accuracy. Part of my reason for asking this question is so I could start fine tuning the load from here but wasn't sure if I had enough velocity to start tweaking things. As you can tell I am new to rifle reloading, I have done pistol and shotgun for many years but this is all new.

Thanks for all of your help!
David

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

You want the bullet to be super sonic and then some. There's a trans-sonic region where the bullet make become upset.

If I had to put a fps number on it, I'd say anything over 1250 fps at 1k would be safe.

If you have things that are equal in terms of absolute accuracy, the faster travelling bullet will be prefered over the slower.

Less time of flight which means less time the wind can impact it and nudge it off course.

The flip side of the coin is is whether the hotter load will trash your brass faster.

That's how I approach things.

Chris

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You want the bullet to be super sonic and then some. There's a trans-sonic region where the bullet make become upset.

If I had to put a fps number on it, I'd say anything over 1250 fps at 1k would be safe.

If you have things that are equal in terms of absolute accuracy, the faster travelling bullet will be prefered over the slower.

Less time of flight which means less time the wind can impact it and nudge it off course.

The flip side of the coin is is whether the hotter load will trash your brass faster.

That's how I approach things.

Chris

</div></div>

That is kind of what I was thinking as well.

 

[bigjohn451]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

I do a lot of 1000 yard matches here in GA. To get to 1k with a 308you need a 175 SMK at 2650. (Thats a base recommendation for our altitude and that bullet.) To get that same bullet to 1200 you need 2900 Fps to keep it supersonic. In Practical terms the 308 caps out at about 800 yds.

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

I would suggest you start by building a load. It will require you to do a little research, make a decision, and a few trips to the range. I would suggest you refer to Handloading for Long Range by TresMon here in the reloading forum. Next I would do either a Ladder Test or an OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) test. Here is the link for the OCW test: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ . I personally do the OCW and run my charge weight increments at .2 grain. I believe .3 grains is recommended and going higher will only mean more trips to the range. I always start with a seating depth that is recommended max and that is usually determined by the length of the magazine. For the .308 Winchester, that is 2.800”. Once I have a charge identified, then I build more rounds with that charge and play with the seating depth.

Looking at the load you had put together, there is room to push the charge up. I would refer to the Reloading Depot in the Reloading forum here, http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=323517&nt=13&page=1, for loads using your powder and bullets. Another good reference is Reloader’s Nest at www.reloadersnest.com.

A .308 Winchester is a great gun to learn how to “drive” and it won’t take you long to figure out that shooting it at 1000 yards requires some skill. I agree with BigJohn451, when I'm shooting to 1000+ yards I go to another gun. Good luck.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Power pro 2000 mr. It's made for bigger bullets. It is a very forgiving powder and if you work it right you can milk an extra 100 fps. It's what all the guys I shoot f/tr with use and I switched to it after my first load test. Running the 175 smk at 2770 with a 22" bartlein. Was at 2688 with 44.5 varget. If you can get some try it out. Start at 46 grains and work your way up.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Run the 155 skinnie
pert much same bc as 175smk

You should be able to get an extra 150fps or so switching bullets

Add re17 to equation and you could see another 100=150fps

so you could pickup 250-300fps with bullet/powder swap
in a short barrel thats nothing to sneeze at

When i shot 308 i ran 155 hard, it for sure gives new life to the old war horse. The 155 has a good following as it gives up nothing bc wise and can be run much faster than a 175.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run the 155 skinnie
pert much same bc as 175smk

You should be able to get an extra 150fps or so switching bullets

Add re17 to equation and you could see another 100=150fps

so you could pickup 250-300fps with bullet/powder swap
in a short barrel thats nothing to sneeze at

When i shot 308 i ran 155 hard, it for sure gives new life to the old war horse. The 155 has a good following as it gives up nothing bc wise and can be run much faster than a 175.</div></div>

Jedi, while you are correct on the extra speed available, have you run the numbers on remaining speed and energy at 1000 yards with the smaller bullets? I have not checked these, as I don't shoot 308, but I know with the 338LM that heavier bullets often overtake the lighter ones at extreme range, at least in terms of remaining velocity, and have more energy left. In some cases, this is the difference between still being supersonic--the heavy one--and being transonic--the lighter one.
Just asking the question, so that the OP will have all the facts. Like I said, I don't shoot 308, so I don't know the answer here.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

I found a load on ammoguide, that in a 20" barrel should yield 2873FPS muzzle vel, on a 155gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1190FPS at 1000yds.
Compare this to another load from ammoguide, in a 20" barrel, that yields 2741FPS Muzzle vel, on a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1248FPS at 1000yds.
Based on these numbers, I would lean towards trying to get a higher velocity accurate load on the 175 or 178 grain bullets, as the carry through will be better at the 1000yds range. There are several powders that you could research to get a higher velocity with the 175/178's and a 20" barrel. Do some ladders tests to find the better accuracy points, and then work up from one of the higher velocity nodes.
Heavier bullets retain better velocity, and are less susceptible to windage.
Just my $.02

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJohn451</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do a lot of 1000 yard matches here in GA. To get to 1k with a 308you need a 175 SMK at 2650. (Thats a base recommendation for our altitude and that bullet.) To get that same bullet to 1200 you need 2900 Fps to keep it supersonic. In Practical terms the 308 caps out at about 800 yds.

</div></div>

Yea I figured I needed to get about another 125fps to give myself a bit of a buffer. I don't really plan on ever shooting it past 1000 at a match but class descriptions do show a little shooting beyond that so I was hoping for a little fudge room if possible.

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would suggest you start by building a load. It will require you to do a little research, make a decision, and a few trips to the range. I would suggest you refer to Handloading for Long Range by TresMon here in the reloading forum. Next I would do either a Ladder Test or an OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) test. Here is the link for the OCW test: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ . I personally do the OCW and run my charge weight increments at .2 grain. I believe .3 grains is recommended and going higher will only mean more trips to the range. I always start with a seating depth that is recommended max and that is usually determined by the length of the magazine. For the .308 Winchester, that is 2.800”. Once I have a charge identified, then I build more rounds with that charge and play with the seating depth.

Looking at the load you had put together, there is room to push the charge up. I would refer to the Reloading Depot in the Reloading forum here, http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=323517&nt=13&page=1, for loads using your powder and bullets. Another good reference is Reloader’s Nest at www.reloadersnest.com.

A .308 Winchester is a great gun to learn how to “drive” and it won’t take you long to figure out that shooting it at 1000 yards requires some skill. I agree with BigJohn451, when I'm shooting to 1000+ yards I go to another gun. Good luck.
</div></div>


Thank you! I will check out those links and do some more reading!! I agree on another gun...I am waiting on a 6.5 Creedmoor built by GAP but it won't be here till late summer so I picked up a 308 to take some classes and learn some long range shooting skills and also to have a little experience reloading before I start up with the 6.5 Creedmoor.

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperUncle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found a load on ammoguide, that in a 20" barrel should yield 2873FPS muzzle vel, on a 155gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1190FPS at 1000yds.
Compare this to another load from ammoguide, in a 20" barrel, that yields 2741FPS Muzzle vel, on a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1248FPS at 1000yds.
Based on these numbers, I would lean towards trying to get a higher velocity accurate load on the 175 or 178 grain bullets, as the carry through will be better at the 1000yds range. There are several powders that you could research to get a higher velocity with the 175/178's and a 20" barrel. Do some ladders tests to find the better accuracy points, and then work up from one of the higher velocity nodes.
Heavier bullets retain better velocity, and are less susceptible to windage.
Just my $.02 </div></div>

I will be reading about the ladder test and getting after it. I had also figured the heavier bullets would do better as well...I bought 1100 of the Sierra 175g BTHP so I am not looking to change lol...finding stuff is hard enough I need to make what I have work.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperUncle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found a load on ammoguide, that in a 20" barrel should yield 2873FPS muzzle vel, on a 155gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1190FPS at 1000yds.
Compare this to another load from ammoguide, in a 20" barrel, that yields 2741FPS Muzzle vel, on a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1248FPS at 1000yds.
Based on these numbers, I would lean towards trying to get a higher velocity accurate load on the 175 or 178 grain bullets, as the carry through will be better at the 1000yds range. There are several powders that you could research to get a higher velocity with the 175/178's and a 20" barrel. Do some ladders tests to find the better accuracy points, and then work up from one of the higher velocity nodes.
Heavier bullets retain better velocity, and are less susceptible to windage.
Just my $.02 </div></div>

Those quoted loads are a bit optimistic in the real world.

Getting a 155gr HPBT up to 2873 fps out of a 20" bore is going to be somewhat problematic and hard on your brass. Same with a 175gr travelling at 2741 fps.

Chris

 

[waste_knot]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Two different situations for Alaska and Eastcoast.
Take a look at some ballistics calculators such as JBM on the web.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
Here at sealevel a 178Amax @ 2600 will not make it to 1K and remain over mach 1.0 The theory being, the bullet needs to remain above the speed of sound to the target because the shock wave changes shape and causes a center of pressure shift causing the bullet to begin to wobble.
At an elevation of 3000ft a 178 Amax will make it to 1K
Follow what everyone else says about OCW as well but at least you will know your lowest vel. allowed.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Why not push the 175 otm behind power pro 2000 mr. This discussion wouldn't even needed. .510 g1. I'm 400 asl. Running them with the g7 (can't remember ) at 2740 puts me super sonic out to 1125 yards. Fairly easy decision I would say but opinions are like ass holes. ......

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not push the 175 otm behind power pro 2000 mr. This discussion wouldn't even needed. .510 g1. I'm 400 asl. Running them with the g7 (can't remember ) at 2740 puts me super sonic out to 1125 yards. Fairly easy decision I would say but opinions are like ass holes. ...... </div></div>

I would be game to give that a try but have 12lbs of RL-15 I need to use up first

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

10-4

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

German Salazar has an interesting view on the .308 and 1000 yards the second paragraph down.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">German Salazar has an interesting view on the .308 and 1000 yards the second paragraph down.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html </div></div>

Thank you he has a lot of great info...the 308 for me is simply something to work with until my GAP 6.5 Creedmoor is finished later this year. My concern is mostly to have a reload that is capable to provide enough accuracy and velocity to attend some training classes and some 1000 yard matches this summer for extra experience shooting at longer ranges. Once the 6.5 is in my stable I suspect the 308 will mostly be used inside of 600 yards.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtibbals</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">German Salazar has an interesting view on the .308 and 1000 yards the second paragraph down.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html </div></div>

Thank you he has a lot of great info...the 308 for me is simply something to work with until my GAP 6.5 Creedmoor is finished later this year. My concern is mostly to have a reload that is capable to provide enough accuracy and velocity to attend some training classes and some 1000 yard matches this summer for extra experience shooting at longer ranges. Once the 6.5 is in my stable I suspect the 308 will mostly be used inside of 600 yards.</div></div>

Once you get your creedmor try this load. 42.4 h4350 , hornady brass, fgm210 m , 140 vld at 2.810 as a starting point. My Crusader eats it for breakfast. Getting 2880 fps with a 27" 8.5 twist. Not even close to having pressure signs

5 shots at warm up before my last match

 

[dtibbals]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dtibbals</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gvanhyning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">German Salazar has an interesting view on the .308 and 1000 yards the second paragraph down.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html </div></div>

Thank you he has a lot of great info...the 308 for me is simply something to work with until my GAP 6.5 Creedmoor is finished later this year. My concern is mostly to have a reload that is capable to provide enough accuracy and velocity to attend some training classes and some 1000 yard matches this summer for extra experience shooting at longer ranges. Once the 6.5 is in my stable I suspect the 308 will mostly be used inside of 600 yards.</div></div>

Once you get your creedmor try this load. 42.4 h4350 , hornady brass, fgm210 m , 140 vld at 2.810 as a starting point. My Crusader eats it for breakfast. Getting 2880 fps with a 27" 8.5 twist. Not even close to having pressure signs

5 shots at warm up before my last match </div></div>

Sweet!!! I can't wait to get that rifle!!!

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperUncle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found a load on ammoguide, that in a 20" barrel should yield 2873FPS muzzle vel, on a 155gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1190FPS at 1000yds.
Compare this to another load from ammoguide, in a 20" barrel, that yields 2741FPS Muzzle vel, on a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1248FPS at 1000yds.
Based on these numbers, I would lean towards trying to get a higher velocity accurate load on the 175 or 178 grain bullets, as the carry through will be better at the 1000yds range. There are several powders that you could research to get a higher velocity with the 175/178's and a 20" barrel. Do some ladders tests to find the better accuracy points, and then work up from one of the higher velocity nodes.
Heavier bullets retain better velocity, and are less susceptible to windage.
Just my $.02 </div></div>

Those quoted loads are a bit optimistic in the real world.

Getting a 155gr HPBT up to 2873 fps out of a 20" bore is going to be somewhat problematic and hard on your brass. Same with a 175gr travelling at 2741 fps.

Chris

</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperUncle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found a load on ammoguide, that in a 20" barrel should yield 2873FPS muzzle vel, on a 155gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1190FPS at 1000yds.
Compare this to another load from ammoguide, in a 20" barrel, that yields 2741FPS Muzzle vel, on a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1248FPS at 1000yds.
Based on these numbers, I would lean towards trying to get a higher velocity accurate load on the 175 or 178 grain bullets, as the carry through will be better at the 1000yds range. There are several powders that you could research to get a higher velocity with the 175/178's and a 20" barrel. Do some ladders tests to find the better accuracy points, and then work up from one of the higher velocity nodes.
Heavier bullets retain better velocity, and are less susceptible to windage.
Just my $.02 </div></div>

Those quoted loads are a bit optimistic in the real world.

Getting a 155gr HPBT up to 2873 fps out of a 20" bore is going to be somewhat problematic and hard on your brass. Same with a 175gr travelling at 2741 fps.

Chris

</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperUncle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found a load on ammoguide, that in a 20" barrel should yield 2873FPS muzzle vel, on a 155gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1190FPS at 1000yds.
Compare this to another load from ammoguide, in a 20" barrel, that yields 2741FPS Muzzle vel, on a 175gr Sierra Match King bullet. It yields 1248FPS at 1000yds.
Based on these numbers, I would lean towards trying to get a higher velocity accurate load on the 175 or 178 grain bullets, as the carry through will be better at the 1000yds range. There are several powders that you could research to get a higher velocity with the 175/178's and a 20" barrel. Do some ladders tests to find the better accuracy points, and then work up from one of the higher velocity nodes.
Heavier bullets retain better velocity, and are less susceptible to windage.
Just my $.02 </div></div>

Those quoted loads are a bit optimistic in the real world.

Getting a 155gr HPBT up to 2873 fps out of a 20" bore is going to be somewhat problematic and hard on your brass. Same with a 175gr travelling at 2741 fps.

Chris

</div></div>

Yes, Chris, like I said, these are from that website. I'm sure they are rather optimistic. My point was more to see the retained velocity of the heavier bullet versus the lighter one at 1000 yards. I believe the point is to try to get a load that remains supersonic to 1000 yards rather than dropping into the transonic range. As one could see from the example, the heavier bullet has much more speed retained, and thus, realistically a better chance of remaining supersonic under real world scenarios.

Thanks for the input, though, we do need to try to stay realistic.

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Re: Velocity goal for reliable 1000+ yard shooting?

Okay, somehow I screwed up the quote thing....sorry guys