Verified Magnetospeed Precision Change

[BlackFenix]

I am currently doing some load testing and I am wondering if anyone has tested the difference in precision between having a Magnetospeed attached and not.

I understand the theory is that any addition to the end of the barrel will cause a change to the barrel harmonics however is the change even measurable. I also understand this could be different for a 1 MOA shooter compared to a 1/4 MOA shooter and that is why I am most interested in seeing anyone's factual data on the subject. Thanks!

 

[morganlamprecht]

its barrel to barrel dependent...i wouldnt ever do any accuracy tests with it attached

i have probably 7-8 barrels in various 22, 6mm, and 6.5 calibers for my AIAT and they all do differently...most barely shift .2-.3 mil (usually up), some dont move much at all, and others shift as much as .5 mil...usually loads that shoot good without the MS, shoot decent with the MS, but i have also seen it make some loads shoot better by sticking it on the end

yesterday i was verifying new 140 hybrid and 140 bthp loads in my 6.5creed...i shot 2 groups of 5 (1 of each load), zero'd on a 3/4 dot without the MS, then strapped the MS to the end and shot 2 more groups of 3 (1 of each load)...both 3 round groups stayed the same size, but shifted up .3 mils

 

[Black max]

It has changed my POI on every rifle I've used it on. That is why I bought a POS one piece mount and made this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

[spife7980]

It has changed my POI on every rifle I've used it on. That is why I bought a POS one piece mount and made this.

Ive been wanting to do something similar after seeing Tubb use the same set up in Franks KO2M video interview. Not having a rifle with a tube or side rails like that is proving a formidable task to over come though lol

To answer the original question: it moves my point of impact and the groups also change. A good shooting load goes to 1" but bad loads tighten up to 1" as well. Seems to just smear everything to the same. Load development with it on was a complete waste as far as results on paper go. The velocity numbers are nice though.

 

[BlackFenix]

What I like about the magnetospeed is seeing the SD of velocity and making generalization if that has attributed to the group size. During load development, I don't pay much attention to the POI shift since I will zero the rifle once I have the load picked out. I am only concerned with it's effect on the group size.

If the group size stays the same but changes POI, I think it is well worth having the Magnetospeed on there. However, if it contributing to a change in group size positively or negatively more than .1 MOA than that could throw off my analysis and I could not picking the center of a node.

 

[BlackFenix]

Ive been wanting to do something similar after seeing Tubb use the same set up in Franks KO2M video interview. Not having a rifle with a tube or side rails like that is proving a formidable task to over come though lol

To answer the original question: it moves my point of impact and the groups also change. A good shooting load goes to 1" but bad loads tighten up to 1" as well. Seems to just smear everything to the same. Load development with it on was a complete waste as far as results on paper go. The velocity numbers are nice though.

I agree that I wish I had a tube or extended side rail. Right now I am running with an XLR Element and may have to look at how I could rig up something depending on what people are seeing with their group sizes and the Magnetospeed attached.

 

[BlackFenix]

It has changed my POI on every rifle I've used it on. That is why I bought a POS one piece mount and made this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

I like your solution! May have to figure out how to replicate it with my setup.

 

[_Windrider_]

What I like about the magnetospeed is seeing the SD of velocity and making generalization if that has attributed to the group size. During load development, I don't pay much attention to the POI shift since I will zero the rifle once I have the load picked out. I am only concerned with it's effect on the group size.

If the group size stays the same but changes POI, I think it is well worth having the Magnetospeed on there. However, if it contributing to a change in group size positively or negatively more than .1 MOA than that could throw off my analysis and I could not picking the center of a node.

I have never experience a change in group size attributed to the MS. I have seen POI shifts. the problem is they aren't as repeatable as say when I use my can. my can is always the same every time. the MS can change the POI in wide ranges due to things like how tight its strapped on, where it is on the system, etc. it can still be used for load work up, the nodes will form just as they would without it, you just have to account for that shift. don't focus so much on POA and POI being the same. just focus on the node and what it looks like. and NEVER EVER zero your rifle with a MS on it.

 

[wareagle700]

10 shots at just over 100 yards all different charge weights, with Magnetospeed attached to barrel.

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/PgsAyYGh.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[padom]

I used a Magnetospeed V3 for the past 2 years. I have never seen accuracy change with it on, but do get a POI change. I shot all my load development OCW tests with it on. When I did seating depth tests I did leave it off. I have since moved to the LabRadar which allows me to not attach anything to the barrel and I can use it when testing pistol loads unlike the V3. V3 was great though.

 

[5RWill]

I always run a can and have seen a small POI change. Never really shot groups with it just because i didn't want the added ailment of something effecting the load development when i'm clearly the weak link.

 

[Black max]

I agree that I wish I had a tube or extended side rail. Right now I am running with an XLR Element and may have to look at how I could rig up something depending on what people are seeing with their group sizes and the Magnetospeed attached.

Should be easy with an XLR. If you get creative it's not hard to mount one on a traditional stock, as long as you have a rail instead of a sling stud.

 

[vh20]

I got both POI and group-size changes on my .338 Norma. It was enough to prompt me to spend the extra money for the Labradar.

 

[BlackFenix]

Here is an interesting read related to the question: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...dium-to-set-the-story-straight.3904282/page-3.

I think moving forward, I will leave it off for load development but I was unable to find statistically valid proof either way.

 

[FALex]

I got both POI and group-size changes on my .338 Norma. It was enough to prompt me to spend the extra money for the Labradar.

LOL!!! What?

I don't get what the deal is with the issue of Magnetos causing harmonics changes? Do they change harmonics? More than likely. Resolution? Find a load that groups well and strap the SOB on...

 

[ironsight1000yard]

But he could get both best group and its mv at the same time if there were no poi and group change.

LOL!!! What?

I don't get what the deal is with the issue of Magnetos causing harmonics changes? Do they change harmonics? More than likely. Resolution? Find a load that groups well and strap the SOB on...

 

[TripleBull]

Here is an interesting read related to the question: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...dium-to-set-the-story-straight.3904282/page-3.

Hogpatrol and Deadeye Dick made the best contributions to that mess.

 

[black5.3]

With my v3 on it causes my poi to go about 1.5 moa higher and 100 yards. Group size remains close to the same. I am shooting a heavy varmint contour too.

 

[BlackFenix]

But he could get both best group and its mv at the same time if there were no poi and group change.

For me is not about getting the MV at the same time but using the SD to help validate the best node. 6.5 has more info on this: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...dium-to-set-the-story-straight.3904282/page-3

If the driving constraint to group size in the vertical is speed than a lower SD will resolve the best precision.

 

[padom]

But he could get both best group and its mv at the same time if there were no poi and group change.

Group size is a non factor when doing proper load development anyway and POI shift caused by the MS being on means nothing as long as you leave it on for the entire OCW test. Your looking for similar POI's between the different charge weights and reading SD's. Group size doesnt come into play until you have selected the charge weight in the center of the node and proceed to do a seating depth test at which time its probably best to leave the chrono off anyway as the data wont mean much for this part of the testing.

If your doing initial load development by looking for the smallest groups than carry on, cant help ya but it might be time for you to do some reading (Dan Newberry)

 

[TripleBull]

Group size is a non factor when doing proper load development anyway and POI shift caused by the MS being on means nothing as long as you leave it on for the entire OCW test.

But I'd never have a MS on the barrel for an OCW test since it would likely affect barrel harmonics.

 

[padom]

But I'd never have a MS on the barrel for an OCW test since it would likely affect barrel harmonics.

This has been proven wrong time and time again. I have shot every OCW test for the past 2 years with it on. Frank also did a review showing this as well a while back....

Here is one of many OCW tests with the MS on. This was an OCW for my 26" Bartlein/TL3 6.5x47L with H4350 and 140 Hybrids. As you can see, POI is consistent. If I shot the OCW without the MS on, POI would not be the same as what you see on this target but again, all the groups POI would be consistent.


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/lSXwNz1.jpg"}[/IMG2]



Here is the follow up seating depth test without the MS on to shrink group size.


[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i.imgur.com\/D59GZp0.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[_Windrider_]

Group size is a non factor when doing proper load development anyway and POI shift caused by the MS being on means nothing as long as you leave it on for the entire OCW test. Your looking for similar POI's between the different charge weights and reading SD's. Group size doesnt come into play until you have selected the charge weight in the center of the node and proceed to do a seating depth test at which time its probably best to leave the chrono off anyway as the data wont mean much for this part of the testing.

If your doing initial load development by looking for the smallest groups than carry on, cant help ya but it might be time for you to do some reading (Dan Newberry)

exactly. do people honestly think this product would still be on the market if it was as useless as so many think it is? the labradar is a good tool as well, but there are just as many threads here sharing some of its shortcomings. Pick your tool, learn how to use and interpret what its telling you and you will be fine. I don't care if you use a MS or a LR, but at least make the decision based on facts and not feelings.

 

[vh20]

TD - not sure if that was aimed at me. I didn't buy a Labradar based on feeling. I have nothing against the MS3, and I still own one. But the "fact" that you are referring to is that the LR stays out of the picture and doesn't affect anything. It just gives the correct answer without coloring the picture and makes things simpler. I personally find it easier to set up too - I always fuss with the MS trying to get it to tighten down at exactly 6 o'clock, but it always wants to go further. You can run LR every session if you wish, watch for trends in MV changes with temp, or whatever, and you don't have to compensate or do anything different. It is a fact, not a feeling. The MS3 works JUST FINE, but you do have to account for its influences in one way or another. There are a lot of people who don't experience any changes in group size with the MS, and they seem to have a hard time believing those who do. Can you work around it? Sure. Does the LR have some short comings? Sure. It's just whichever one works best for your situation. I have both, prefer the LR. If it ever gives me questionable info, I can always pull the MS3 out to keep it honest (and it has been).

 

[vh20]

LOL!!! What?

I don't get what the deal is with the issue of Magnetos causing harmonics changes? Do they change harmonics? More than likely. Resolution? Find a load that groups well and strap the SOB on...

OR...just use a chrono that runs quietly all the time in the background without any influence whatsoever, anytime you want. (lol) Either way works, just which you prefer.

 

[_Windrider_]

TD - not sure if that was aimed at me. I didn't buy a Labradar based on feeling. I have nothing against the MS3, and I still own one. But the "fact" that you are referring to is that the LR stays out of the picture and doesn't affect anything. It just gives the correct answer without coloring the picture and makes things simpler. I personally find it easier to set up too - I always fuss with the MS trying to get it to tighten down at exactly 6 o'clock, but it always wants to go further. You can run LR every session if you wish, watch for trends in MV changes with temp, or whatever, and you don't have to compensate or do anything different. It is a fact, not a feeling. The MS3 works JUST FINE, but you do have to account for its influences in one way or another. There are a lot of people who don't experience any changes in group size with the MS, and they seem to have a hard time believing those who do. Can you work around it? Sure. Does the LR have some short comings? Sure. It's just whichever one works best for your situation. I have both, prefer the LR. If it ever gives me questionable info, I can always pull the MS3 out to keep it honest (and it has been).

Wasn't directed at anyone. Just that there is a lot of misinformation out there on everything. For example, the thread says verified precision change. Did the precision change or did accuracy change or neither? Most still don't understand the difference. All I was saying is base your choices on facts not perceptions. Both have their limitations. Both work perfectly fine once you understand those limitations. My ultimate point being, if the MS was no good for load work ups, id imagine no one would use them. But many of us do.

 

[vh20]

^ Yep.

 

[_Windrider_]

^ Yep.

Referring to your post above, it seems the heavier the contour the less the effect. At least that's my observation from those who report on shifts. Those with very thin profiles seem to be the loudest naysayers, and that's a reasonable position. I agree having both is ideal if you can afford it.

 

[TripleBull]

This has been proven wrong time and time again.

Not to me it hasn't. Yes, I understand your argument, I see your images. I'm just not convinced. I also don't suspect the effect is huge, but having the MS on during OCW isn't required and there is no damage choosing not to use it.

 

[_Windrider_]

Not to me it hasn't. Yes, I understand your argument, I see your images. I'm just not convinced. I also don't suspect the effect is huge, but having the MS on during OCW isn't required and there is no damage choosing not to use it.

Required no. Doable yes.

 

[6AYoteHunter]

Does change POI. Suspect on a thin barrel it would affect group sizes but have not seen it yet on my rifles.
I measure my velocities until I get to a min goal velocity. Then take off the chrono and pick the best load. Then I chrono that load over at least 5 shots. If the velocity is still good and ES small I call it good. The only additional tests I will run is powder temp.
The handguard attachment system is getting very popular with guys wanting to track all their velocities. David Tubb did this at King of the 2 mile

 

[vh20]

Referring to your post above, it seems the heavier the contour the less the effect. At least that's my observation from those who report on shifts. Those with very thin profiles seem to be the loudest naysayers, and that's a reasonable position. I agree having both is ideal if you can afford it.

I agree with your assessment and it made/makes perfect sense to me. But...my .338 is a 26 in. M24, so not thin or fragile. It is less stiff, however, than say a 6.5 or .308 M24 would be.

 

[kurtlaughton]

So we just got ahold of a labradar and did some tests on it vs the magnetospeed and then with the magnetospeed off the gun. Interesting results are in, the velocities are when 2-3fps of each other, but with the magnetospeed off the gun the standard deviation and extreme spreads are higher than with it on the gun. So somehow it is effecting the muzzle velocity. This was verified over multiple loads.

 

[BlackFenix]

So we just got ahold of a labradar and did some tests on it vs the magnetospeed and then with the magnetospeed off the gun. Interesting results are in, the velocities are when 2-3fps of each other, but with the magnetospeed off the gun the standard deviation and extreme spreads are higher than with it on the gun. So somehow it is effecting the muzzle velocity. This was verified over multiple loads.

That is some good information to know!

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The barrel is not a tuning fork. One area where I'm surprised the elitists here are into false relativity. Of course we will see a POI change attaching a Jedi blade extending beyond the muzzle. I suppose one can take a couple of drum sticks with a barrel and play in a one man band .

 

[Deleted member 10043]

So we just got ahold of a labradar and did some tests on it vs the magnetospeed and then with the magnetospeed off the gun. Interesting results are in, the velocities are when 2-3fps of each other, but with the magnetospeed off the gun the standard deviation and extreme spreads are higher than with it on the gun. So somehow it is effecting the muzzle velocity. This was verified over multiple loads.

Data

 

[TripleBull]

The barrel is not a tuning fork.

You are so far below the curve...

 

[_Windrider_]

So we just got ahold of a labradar and did some tests on it vs the magnetospeed and then with the magnetospeed off the gun. Interesting results are in, the velocities are when 2-3fps of each other, but with the magnetospeed off the gun the standard deviation and extreme spreads are higher than with it on the gun. So somehow it is effecting the muzzle velocity. This was verified over multiple loads.

Im a bit skeptical on this. You said ES and SD changed, but did the MV change too? How much time between shots (was the chamber cooled and a consistent ammo temp maintained)? Were the changes noted on multiple sequences of the same load or between different loads? How many shots actually fired?

Im skeptical because there is no way a MS should change MV.

 

[Milo 2.5]

So we just got ahold of a labradar and did some tests on it vs the magnetospeed and then with the magnetospeed off the gun. Interesting results are in, the velocities are when 2-3fps of each other, but with the magnetospeed off the gun the standard deviation and extreme spreads are higher than with it on the gun. So somehow it is effecting the muzzle velocity. This was verified over multiple loads.

I think hard data is deserved here. I believe your results though as the MS hanging on any barrel has to act as a tuner, whether in your favor or not. If I had ran your tests, I would've bought at least a cheap rubber tuner and slapped on my barrel to verify before posting.

 

[TripleBull]

.... the MS hanging on any barrel has to act as a tuner, whether in your favor or not.

Agreed, with the magnitude of impact on harmonics dependent on the gun/barrel in question.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

A tuner? We should all take closer look at those black rubber barrel tuners.

https://www.amazon.com/LimbSaver-Sharpshooter-X-Ring-Barrel-Dampener/dp/B00Z6K10HQ

 

[_Windrider_]

A tuner? We should all take closer look at those black rubber barrel tuners.

https://www.amazon.com/LimbSaver-Sharpshooter-X-Ring-Barrel-Dampener/dp/B00Z6K10HQ

now this is funny.

 

[ironsight1000yard]

Hijacking the the thread. Why is labradar only sold in midwasy usa?

I was hoping to find it in more stores can the price can come down a bit.

 

[spife7980]

Hijacking the the thread. Why is labradar only sold in midwasy usa?

I was hoping to find it in more stores can the price can come down a bit.

It's sold other places. Call bison tactical

 

[padom]

Call MIle High. They had the best price out of anyone I called.

 

[ironsight1000yard]

Thanks you 2. Google failed on that search.

 

[DynamicAccuracy]

Any weight or anything touching the barrel will change barrel harmonics...but that doesn't mean you'll see a POI shift. I've tested my heavy varmint barreled rifle with and without the MS and I don't see any POI shift.

 

[_Windrider_]

Any weight or anything touching the barrel will change barrel harmonics...but that doesn't mean you'll see a POI shift. I've tested my heavy varmint barreled rifle with and without the MS and I don't see any POI shift.

The heavier the contour, the less pronounced it is, if at all. That's been my observations.

 

[sharac]

It's funny to read people swearing it doesn't change anything and yet (i would dare to assume) they use free floated barrels, gluedin/bedded actions, stiff stocks of various types. If you hang anything of meaningful size/weight on a barrel it will change things period. By how much? Depends.

I've experimented with underside carrier (simple homemade contraption of a rod mounted on picatinny AI spigot) for magnetospeed and it doesn't work well for me (i suspect its not stiff enough and magnetospeed moves when i fire) as accuracy of measurement is way off (up by 100-150fps, with ES/SD being all over the place - twice as big as i was directly comparing with Labradar). Once you mount it back to the barrel accuracy is back, being within 5fps of Labradars measurements.

If mounted on barrel i get the same groups with stiffer barrels:

1: 30.5mm straight 28" tube - minimum POI shift (1cm up) no group change (my impression might just be good barrel)
2: 30.5mm to 20mm light varmint taper 26" - POI shift of around 7cm up and some group expansion (again might just be the barrel as it never shot really well)
3: 30.5mm to 25.4mm straight target barrel 26" - POI shift around 4cm up and minimal group expansion but again take it with a grain of salt

*POI shift is in opposite direction of mounting, if mounted to the right it will shoot to the left

if mounted on a underside carrier (not touching barrel) i get no change but also crappy readings.

If i had to really evaluate ease of use and also considering price i would always pick magneto over labradar regardless of its effect on POI and "possible" effect on group sizes.

 

[spife7980]

I've experimented with underside carrier (simple homemade contraption of a rod mounted on picatinny AI spigot) for magnetospeed and it doesn't work well for me (i suspect its not stiff enough and magnetospeed moves when i fire) as accuracy of measurement is way off (up by 100-150fps, with ES/SD being all over the place - twice as big as i was directly comparing with Labradar). Once you mount it back to the barrel accuracy is back, being within 5fps of Labradars measurements.

Do you have pictures of this device that you could share?