Verifying chargemaster

[javy]

Buying almost new, lightly used, well maintained chargemaster from my brother in law.

What would you purchase to verify charge weights with.
Considering gempro or tuned beam scale from Scott Parker.
If budget was more I would go a different more proven method but this is where I am at.

All suggestions are appreciated
Thanks

 

[m1match]

Buy a set of check weights which are weights of a known weight then check your chargemaster scale to confirm ITV matches the check weights

 

[bodywerks]

If you are looking to 'verify' that it is throwing accurate charge weights, then just don't buy it in the first place and get a better scale/system to start with. The chargemaster is good for loading plinker and hunting rounds at best. I'll spare you the wonder about verifying the weights - it's going to be +/- .2 grains on average.
Buy once, cry once, trust me. I have spent probably a grand on beam scales, other digital scales, and the chargemaster over the years. Up until a few months ago the accuracy of my powder charges have been a best guess at best. Finally broke down and bought an autotrickler setup coupled to and A&D fx120i scale. I now have accuracy down to the kernel, and it throws charges 2-3 times faster than the chargemaster.

 

[Olen_4504]

there is nothing wrong with the chargemaster. plenty of people load accurate match ammo on them with good results.

the whole point of load development is to find a node so that you can absorb small variances in your charge weights and still keep the same velocity window.

i use two CM lites and SDs are always 2-5fps , es 9-12

A&D fx120i just isn't in some people's budget. sure it's faster --- whoopdie doo.


as far as your original question - i know what you are getting at and i don't really have a suggestion. i've never worried about verifying them. when i got my 2nd CM i did compare the two and they are dead on with each other.

 

[Bradu]

If you are looking to 'verify' that it is throwing accurate charge weights, then just don't buy it in the first place and get a better scale/system to start with. The chargemaster is good for loading plinker and hunting rounds at best. I'll spare you the wonder about verifying the weights - it's going to be +/- .2 grains on average.
Buy once, cry once, trust me. I have spent probably a grand on beam scales, other digital scales, and the chargemaster over the years. Up until a few months ago the accuracy of my powder charges have been a best guess at best. Finally broke down and bought an autotrickler setup coupled to and A&D fx120i scale. I now have accuracy down to the kernel, and it throws charges 2-3 times faster than the chargemaster.

There have been people test the accuracy and extreme spreads/sd's of the different scales and it didn't make that much difference. Plenty of us using a chargemaster with single digit sd's. Please tell us all about how you are going to shoot the difference ?

 

[Precision Underground]

I have a rcbs 505 on the bench and will toss a charge on there every now and then while running the CM. It is dead on 98% of the time. There are some little nuances to the CM that if you are paying attention and have some sense you will learn what a perfect charge and a not perfect charge look like when thrown.

Don’t listen to people who say you need a lab scale with three or four decimals. People drive themselves nuts over a hundredth of a gr which is irrelevant in reloading. Get a 505 and check the charges often when you first start using it. You will start to trust the CM and you will quickly learn what to look for in a bad throw.

My CM can throw the next charge as fast as I can seat a bullet on the previous throw. Just make sure not to move the bench or let any air disturbance affect the CM and you will be fine.

 

[javy]

Thanks for the responses. I understand the buy once cry once. Right now will have to go as planned keeping a eye on what the rifle tells me. Will go the the better route when results and needs dictate a better system.
Thanks

 

[Steel head]

There have been people test the accuracy and extreme spreads/sd's of the different scales and it didn't make that much difference. Plenty of us using a chargemaster with single digit sd's. Please tell us all about how you are going to shoot the difference ?

This.

I have a few single digit SD loads thrown on a Hornandy LNL.

I’ve checked it numerous times and it’s never over/under more than a tenth of a grain.

I use an older 5-0-5 to check things.

 

[antithesis]

i use two CM lites and SDs are always 2-5fps , es 9-12

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Olen_4504]

Thanks for the laugh.

???

 

[Gil P.]

???

I don't get it either...

OP, why not get a 505 beam scale to verify your digital scale? There is a chance your check weights wont be exactly what they say they are, you can verify the actual weight on your beam scale.

 

[Steel head]

I don't get it either...

OP, why not get a 505 beam scale to verify your digital scale? There is a chance your check weights wont be exactly what they say they are, you can verify the actual weight on your beam scale.

Hmmm

So many suggestions or mentions of the 5-0-5,,,,,,,wonder why?????

 

[Olen_4504]

It doesn’t really matter if the check weights aren’t exactly 100.000grams.

It’s all relative. As long as you use the same weights to calibrate each time, and throw the loads from the same scale, it doesn’t matter.

If your throwing 29.3g of powder from your scale consistently. And that’s the load you worked up and it works, but it weighs 29.1g on a different scale., who cares?

I could see using a second scale to check for drift or something. But that’s about it

 

[CBeck]

I use a 55 grain .223 bullet for a check weight. As long as it shows 54.9 I know everything thing is happy. Paying attention to the negative weight shown when you remove the pan usually lets you know it it has drifted.

 

[antithesis]

???

Aside from the margin of error on whatever it is you are checking your velocities with, even if you hand adjusted the sloppy throws from the CM the RCBS scale is not capable of the accuracy needed to get that level of consistency. Assuming you are shooting a rifle with a fps in the 2,700'ish range, you are claiming 0.01 to 0.02 grain precision from a scale that has a +/- 0.1 grain margin of error, and that also assumed everything else you are doing (seating depth, case volume, etc.) is all dead on.

 

[Olen_4504]

Aside from the margin of error on whatever it is you are checking your velocities with, even if you hand adjusted the sloppy throws from the CM the RCBS scale is not capable of the accuracy needed to get that level of consistency. Assuming you are shooting a rifle with a fps in the 2,700'ish range, you are claiming 0.01 to 0.02 grain precision from a scale that has a +/- 0.1 grain margin of error, and that also assumed everything else you are doing (seating depth, case volume, etc.) is all dead on.

I’m guess I’m just full of shit and all my equipment sucks. It’s amazing I can even hit anything.

 

[Bradu]

If you order a scale from Parker, you may have it by Christmas. I verified my chargemasters when I first got them wi

Aside from the margin of error on whatever it is you are checking your velocities with, even if you hand adjusted the sloppy throws from the CM the RCBS scale is not capable of the accuracy needed to get that level of consistency. Assuming you are shooting a rifle with a fps in the 2,700'ish range, you are claiming 0.01 to 0.02 grain precision from a scale that has a +/- 0.1 grain margin of error, and that also assumed everything else you are doing (seating depth, case volume, etc.) is all dead on.

I've had people call me a liar when I chronographed my brother's rifle with FGMM and he had single digit sd's. I heard all about the variance in the powder charges and a few other reasons how it was impossible. It was a 10 shot string over a magnetospeed.

With that said, he may be shooting 3 shots and calling it good, I don't recall him saying how many rounds he chronographed.

 

[Bradu]

I wanted to add that I have a Scott Parker tuned scale that I used to trickle every charge into using a web cam so I didn't have to lean over to read and it made sure you looked at it the same angle every time. It took too long so I got dual chargemasters and would pull kernels so it read the charge every time, mine like to overthrow a tenth of a grain about 50% of the time. Now I usually just leave it and dump the charge anyways. I don't really notice it on paper or the chronograph. I used to be very anal about loading but I've found that you can get by with a lot of shit if you aren't trying for benchrest accuracy.

I could be like the guy that called me the other night all worried that he forgot to brush the necks before he dumped powder and seated bullets. I wish I would have thought to tell him that he better pull all of them and start over. He's obsessed with perfecting his ammo but I think he's up to a whopping 600 rounds through a scoped rifle other than hunting. I bet half has been load development in search of low single digit sd's. He is always shooting with a magnetospeed on the rifle. I just laugh because he's a long ways from worrying about his ammo holding him back but he won't listen. His time would be better spent at the range instead of freaking out over his reloading process.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

I’m guess I’m just full of shit and all my equipment sucks. It’s amazing I can even hit anything.

Or you have a accuracy node a country-mile wide and ignorance is bliss. My old CM had a .3gr variance measured on a lab scale.

 

[jetsurgeon]

Using my Scott Parker tuned Redding scale, I have found throwing H4350 my Chargemaster is anywhere from 2 to about 7 kernels of powder short every time of the beam scale.

 

[Olen_4504]

Or you have a accuracy node a country-mile wide and ignorance is bliss. My old CM had a .3gr variance measured on a lab scale.

Dude you guys are killing me.

Obviously I have a good node. That was my whole point from the beginning. I never claimed a CM was as/more accurate than the other option.

I simply said the OP would be fine with a CM if he couldn’t afford an a&d and still be able to produce accurate loads because the whole reason we do load development is to find a node which allows for small variances in charge weight but maintains consistent velocity.

Then I was called a liar. Because apparently it’s impossible to produce accurate loads on a CM.

You guys are acting like I said “a chargemaster is just as accurate at throwing powder as a a&d fx120i”

I never said that. I said if you find a good node (like WE ALL DO) then it doesn’t matter if your charges vary slightly. You can still produce a load with low SDs/ES. Which you yourself just confirmed is true.

But I was called a liar? Because thats what I enjoy doing, lying about my load data to strangers on the internet.

I apologize to the OP for this thread going off track.

 

[antithesis]

If you would have mentioned your node rather than saying someone will learn what a perfect charge is, or that your CM charges are dead on 98% of the time I can assure you the response would have been very different.

Your post was misleading at best. Lying? Only you can make that call. I merely pointed out that the conclusion-- possibly the only conclusion --that could be drawn from your post was flawed by providing facts.

 

[Bradu]

Dude you guys are killing me.

Obviously I have a good node. That was my whole point from the beginning. I never claimed a CM was as/more accurate than the other option.

I simply said the OP would be fine with a CM if he couldn’t afford an a&d and still be able to produce accurate loads because the whole reason we do load development is to find a node which allows for small variances in charge weight but maintains consistent velocity.

Then I was called a liar. Because apparently it’s impossible to produce accurate loads on a CM.

You guys are acting like I said “a chargemaster is just as accurate at throwing powder as a a&d fx120i”

I never said that. I said if you find a good node (like WE ALL DO) then it doesn’t matter if your charges vary slightly. You can still produce a load with low SDs/ES. Which you yourself just confirmed is true.

But I was called a liar? Because thats what I enjoy doing, lying about my load data to strangers on the internet.

I apologize to the OP for this thread going off track.

How many rounds do you chronographed at a time to get your sd/es?

 

[Olen_4504]

How many rounds do you chronographed at a time to get your sd/es?

Anywhere from 5-15 usually

 

[javy]

Thanks guys. You have confirmed two things, I probably won’t gamble my money on a long wait for a tuned beam scale and two, the charge master will do the job until I feel like it is not accurate enough to be competive shooting paper games at distance. I will have to increase my skill level in that regard.

Again thanks

 

[archerforkids]

If it helps any, you might try what I do.
For each different weight powder charge I use repeatedly, I make a weight that matches that charge. I keep it handy when loading ammo and throw it on my CM if I think it is acting stupid. I do verify each load of my CM with a digital scale if I am working on load development. If the CM and digital disagree, I throw the "verification" weight on each and see which one has decided to backfire and fart. Usually if they disagree it's only .1.

 

[mzvarner]

Another vote for the chargemaster and a beam scale. I also bought the little pack of rcbs check weights. I have a bolt gun and an ar10 that im shooting single digit SD with sub moa groups. Never had a throw greater than 0.1 over set charge. Only thing i did was add a McDonalds straw to the spout and watched a YouTube video on how to adjust the programming to speed up throws

The people that tell you you cant get consistent throws without a lab scale/ expensive trickler, are the same ones that say you cant load precision rounds on a Dillion. Their opinion is very biased because they spent hundreds more to get those setups, so they have to justify the purchase repeatedly.

 

[garandman]

I use a Frankford Arsenal Intellidropper that I cross check with a Dillon beam scale.

Its important to let your electronic powder thrower warm for about a half hour to get accurate consistent charges.

If I start throwing powder right away (no warm up time) I get some inconsistency. If I let it warm up, I get dead on consistent charges.

My results speak for themselves - half inch groups at 100y.


And yes, you can spend more money than I did. If it makes you feel better about yourself.

 

[garandman]

The people that tell you you cant get consistent throws without a lab scale/ expensive trickler, are the same ones that say you cant load precision rounds on a Dillion. Their opinion is very biased because they spent hundreds more to get those setups, so they have to justify the purchase repeatedly.

THIS ^ ^ ^ x 1000.

 

[texastonk]

Another vote for the chargemaster and a beam scale. I also bought the little pack of rcbs check weights. I have a bolt gun and an ar10 that im shooting single digit SD with sub moa groups. Never had a throw greater than 0.1 over set charge. Only thing i did was add a McDonalds straw to the spout and watched a YouTube video on how to adjust the programming to speed up throws

The people that tell you you cant get consistent throws without a lab scale/ expensive trickler, are the same ones that say you cant load precision rounds on a Dillion. Their opinion is very biased because they spent hundreds more to get those setups, so they have to justify the purchase repeatedly.

This is what I use as well. The small check weights and my 505. low double digit or single digit ES and SD are not hard to get.

 

[frost1235]

Honestly, coming from a pharmaceutical background, it would be preferable to have a good, GOOD weight to calibrate the powder, and zero the scale every time you put the powder trey back on if you don't know if you want to invest in an FX120 yet. (With the occasional removing the filled powder trey off the scale and reweighing for good measure.)

If I kept focused and concentrated, I was able to get SD's around 7-9 at the cost of time. (A LOT of time. It'd take me an hour to do 50 rounds. Again, an HOUR to JUST weigh and dump the powder!) The autotrickler gives you speed on top of a very accurate and precise scale, at a fraction of the cost of the prometheus, but a high cost nonetheless.


See how dedicated you are to reloading before you dump more money in to justify the price savings.

 

[garandman]

See how dedicated you are to reloading before you dump more money in to justify the price savings.

"reloading savings" ..... ppl still beleive in that myth?

 

[Bradu]

"reloading savings" ..... ppl still beleive in that myth?

Reload magnum calibers without having the need for the best reloading equipment and you can. People buying all the latest and greatest high end shit will never see the return.

 

[garandman]

Reload magnum calibers without having the need for the best reloading equipment and you can. People buying all the latest and greatest high end shit will never see the return.

My point is the "savings" from reloading gets burnt up by shooting more.

Each shooter has "x" dollars to spend shooting - reloading or commercial ammo.

And they spend exactly that.

Yes... I reloaded for 338 NM. At about $1.20 / rd. Commercially loaded ammo was in excess of $80 / 20. I still shot the same $$$ amount as I had expendable funds. The "savings" gets burnt in more rounds down range.

 

[Bradu]

My point is the "savings" from reloading gets burnt up by shooting more.

Each shooter has "x" dollars to spend shooting - reloading or commercial ammo.

And they spend exactly that.

Yes... I reloaded for 338 NM. At about $1.20 / rd. Commercially loaded ammo was in excess of $80 / 20. I still shot the same $$$ amount as I had expendable funds. The "savings" gets burnt in more rounds down range.

Not necessarily but I realize trying to discuss anything with you is like talking to a fucking stump so I will just let you think you know everything...

 

[tunaman]

I wanted to add that I have a Scott Parker tuned scale that I used to trickle every charge into using a web cam so I didn't have to lean over to read and it made sure you looked at it the same angle every time. It took too long so I got dual chargemasters and would pull kernels so it read the charge every time, mine like to overthrow a tenth of a grain about 50% of the time. Now I usually just leave it and dump the charge anyways. I don't really notice it on paper or the chronograph. I used to be very anal about loading but I've found that you can get by with a lot of shit if you aren't trying for benchrest accuracy.

Are you using the straw mod? If not, and if you care, I’d suggest that you do so as it helps a lot.

 

[javy]

Going to use some type of straw mod when I get it set up.

 

[Bradu]

Are you using the straw mod? If not, and if you care, I’d suggest that you do so as it helps a lot.

Using the bushings made for the chargemasters. I tried the straw and it was about the same

 

[Bradu]

Are you using the straw mod? If not, and if you care, I’d suggest that you do so as it helps a lot.

Using the bushings made for the chargemasters. I tried the straw and it was about the same

 

[tunaman]

Gotcha. The straw mod works great for me and really helped even it out. I’ve had mine for probably 8 years or more, and fortunately learned about the mod early on.

However, thanks to the poster above for mentioning the programming tweaks, as I somehow never heard about this previously - that will really help. I have gotten to the point where I’ve incorporated two pans into my workflow, and swap back and forth for each charge in an attempt to make it more efficient. The speed tweaks will help me a lot.

 

[Snuby642]

I have a chargemaster and check it against another digital scale often.

When instructions are followed I have good results.

Cut airflow, move electronics away, get rid of vibration / jarring.
Acclimate unit for about 30 minutes to location and temp with power on.

Adjust speed for powder characteristics.

The dang thing will toss good loads all day for the price paid.

If well heeled it can certainly be out done but probably will have to treat it in the same mannor.

If you can shoot good enough to take advantage of the costly 0.01gr units
You're the man.

 

[frost1235]

"reloading savings" ..... ppl still beleive in that myth?

Only when they first start ?

 

[garandman]

Only when they first start ?

Its the little lie we tell ourselves...and our wives.

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

I just loaded up 50 6.5 Creedmoor at 50 cents a piece. That’s a dollar per round savings over factory. 10,000 more like that, and I may break even. ?

Oh wait, I need an annealer.

10,400 more like that......

 

[Bradu]

Gotcha. The straw mod works great for me and really helped even it out. I’ve had mine for probably 8 years or more, and fortunately learned about the mod early on.

However, thanks to the poster above for mentioning the programming tweaks, as I somehow never heard about this previously - that will really help. I have gotten to the point where I’ve incorporated two pans into my workflow, and swap back and forth for each charge in an attempt to make it more efficient. The speed tweaks will help me a lot.

I followed Greg's advice from Primal rights on adjusting the settings and also tried one other person's recommended settings with no luck. Also have anti static mat that is grounded, ferrite chokes and wiping down with softener sheets that I don't think do a damn thing.

Are you pans the same weight? I know mine vary by almost 2 grains.

 

[tunaman]

I’m using the RCBS plastic pans with the funnel handle, and they are indeed slightly different weights. I used a little duct tape on the lighter pan to get them to be identical, and it works well.

I played with the adjustments earlier and was able to cut the time in about half. I was using a pet load for my .260 consisting of 42.4 grains of H4350. Took a few tries, which helped to understand the impact of each adjustment and what the bounds were, but I got stable results in a short time tweaking. I may try to refine it more, but it is a far improvement from factory already.

 

[Precision Underground]

Obsessing over hundredths of grains is futile and a huge waste of time. Find a good node, let the chargemaster run, and go shoot. It may make people feel good to use lab scales and to toil over .003 of a grain but it does not matter if you have a good load. If you want to go shoot benchrest, sure get obsessive and go to town. If you want to shoot 3/8 moa and shoot 2000 yards just find a good load and stop trying to be a scientist. Guys can say it’s not possible but I and others here can tell you it’s really not that hard.

 

[garandman]

Obsessing over hundredths of grains is futile and a huge waste of time. Find a good node, let the chargemaster run, and go shoot. It may make people feel good to use lab scales and to toil over .003 of a grain but it does not matter if you have a good load. If you want to go shoot benchrest, sure get obsessive and go to town. If you want to shoot 3/8 moa and shoot 2000 yards just find a good load and stop trying to be a scientist. Guys can say it’s not possible but I and others here can tell you it’s really not that hard.

May I humbly agree...and add.... DO "stress over low SD's" i.e. actual range results.... so your loads will be consistent / repeatable / predictable.

(That's my thinking, anyway. I'm open to better info.)

 

[Precision Underground]

If you are running 42 gr and you are a tenth off that’s 0.25%..... that’s point two five PERCENT off.... that’s 0.0025 off. Considering the variation and volatility of powder ignition, it does not matter AT ALL. If you are running a 10 gr load that is significant, that’s why subsonic loads always have huge spreads. For a precision rifle round it is. It significant.

 

[Precision Underground]

May I humbly agree...and add.... DO "stress over low SD's" i.e. actual range results.... so your loads will be consistent / repeatable / predictable.

(That's my thinking, anyway. I'm open to better info.)

Exactly. But how you do that is with a good load, brass quality, and brass prep. Not by obsessing over a couple of hundredths.

 

[garandman]

Exactly. But how you do that is with a good load, brass quality, and brass prep. Not by obsessing over a couple of hundredths.

I'm just over / under half MoA "stressing" over 0.1 gr.

Seems to me, about 2-3 kernels of 4350 powder makes up 0.1 gr. That means its not possible to get more precise than 0.033 gr.

And like you say, not really worth it.

My current 6.5 CM node is 41.4 / 41.5 gr. BOTH get near half MoA.