Put together my rifle yesterday. Origin action, osprey barrel from pva, trigger tech trigger, krg bravo, razor Gen 2 with badger rings and a Harris bipod. Spent today, my birthday, breaking in the barrel according to PVA’s suggestion. Worked thru several loads of h4350 and 143 eldx’s. Started at 41.5 and .020 jump. The higher I got the more my sd opened up on velocity. For now I’ve settled at 41.7 with a 10 shot sd of 13. Also I had been reading some articles on accurate shooter on bullet jump nodes and tried .060. It seemed to help tighten my groups a bit. But I’m still getting more vertical stringing than I’d like. Any suggestions on things to look at? It’s shooting half moa 5 shot groups but I’d like better. Maybe it’s just me and I suck
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Vertical stringing
- Thread starter rickdavis81
- Start date
Put together my rifle yesterday. Origin action, osprey barrel from pva, trigger tech trigger, krg bravo, razor Gen 2 with badger rings and a Harris bipod. Spent today, my birthday, breaking in the barrel according to PVA’s suggestion. Worked thru several loads of h4350 and 143 eldx’s. Started at 41.5 and .020 jump. The higher I got the more my sd opened up on velocity. For now I’ve settled at 41.7 with a 10 shot sd of 13. Also I had been reading some articles on accurate shooter on bullet jump nodes and tried .060. It seemed to help tighten my groups a bit. But I’m still getting more vertical stringing than I’d like. Any suggestions on things to look at? It’s shooting half moa 5 shot groups but I’d like better. Maybe it’s just me and I suck
Too early in the game to go to tinkering with it... That could change on break in.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!... That is a perfect way to spend it.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!... That is a perfect way to spend it.
Thanks. Was wondering if I should just shoot it for now.
Yes. Just shoot it for a little bit.
1/2 moa ten shot groups with vertical stringing. Can you post a couple pics of a group?
1/2 moa ten shot groups with vertical stringing. Can you post a couple pics of a group?
The Magnetospeed hanging on the barrel can certainly affect POI. Whether people want to believe it or some barrel’s temperature has been seemingly associated with vertical stringing. This is highly debated but seems it does sometimes IMO.
A magnetospeed will "move" the group, but I have never see it "affect" the group size
So please tell me how the Magneto is changing the group cause in my experience it just moves location not size
So please tell me how the Magneto is changing the group cause in my experience it just moves location not size
I really figured with that heavy m24 countour the magneto speed wouldn’t cause much issue. Like was said maybe change poi but not group
5 shots at 100
Attachments
I can’t see how one can get that much vertical at 100 yards with an SD of ten. What was your extreme spread?
At 100 that isn't velocity unless its way fucking different shot to shot.
That's you on the rear bag.
I got that the other day with my Valkyrie load,
Strung at 100, and again at 600
I figured seating depth so I stuck a tuner on and decided I will tune it out rather than chase the group,
My SD was low too,
happens
Strung at 100, and again at 600
I figured seating depth so I stuck a tuner on and decided I will tune it out rather than chase the group,
My SD was low too,
happens
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I got no rhyme or reason but these had a Magnetospeed on the barrel because I recorded the velocity on the target. Seems stringy to me. Also were shot close together with a suppressed barrel that wasn’t cooled. 
Different powder but same day, gun and bullet.
Different powder but same day, gun and bullet.
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If you are using a bag that's better suited towards props (ie gamechanger, tater tot, etc) it can induce vertical stringing as I happened to find out first hand this past Monday. It's possible to shoot tiny groups, but it's not ideal. From here on out, shooting for groups at 100yds, I'll be using my dedicated rear bag for such tests.
- Nov 3, 2010
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I believe there is a thread talking about this very subject and suing the correct rear bag? The bags from Alaska
- Nov 3, 2010
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This may sound crazy but have you tried two layers of cardboard under the bipod legs? The rubber feet on the wood bench will tend to jump. With the legs on the top sheet of cardboard the rifle will slide more than jump because the two pieces of cardboard will slide.
Shoot 150 rounds through it practicing on fundamentals. Then go back through load development. Barrel will break in and you’ll be a better shooter.
Its dumb. Saying a GC is just a prop bag is pure ignorance. I can shoot smaller groups with a smedium than a PR ELR bag, MFC or TAB bag. Most PRS shooters don't even carry a dedicated rear bag, and there is alot of prone supported shooting where IF it was an advantage, it would be used.
The only thing that would be more accurate is an ABR with the right bag.
People always make shit up to sell stuff to people who don't know any better.
- Nov 3, 2010
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Just passing in an article that talked about vertical stringing in relation to rear bags. Take what you want from it, leave the rest for whoever else wants it
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Anything that you hang near the muzzle has the potential to change group size and or shape by changing the barrel's moment of inertia and vibration characteristics.
Not a subject matter expert on vibration analysis, but do seem to remember some of the mech e stuff I learned many years ago.
The group that is a long string, is one from each charge weight shot over a magneto speed . There is an extra variable though because the OCW was shot with a suppressor, then i removed the suppressor, and attached the magneto speed. Each successive shot landed below the one that preceded it. I can't think of another time I have seen it happen like this though. Probably kin to shooting a half MOA group with wolf steel case.
I’ve always wondered if it’s because the Magnetospeed moves, albeit very little but still moves, towards the muzzle with recoil causing the linear change in POI.
- Nov 3, 2010
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Guess you think these guys don’t know shit either? Just released a few new rear bags
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-the-most-stable-rear-bag-promo-code.7146648/
Yea let them know the last bag I bought from them , the fill became baby powder and would make a good pitchers bag.
Their job is to sell shit and make you think you need to buy it. Commerce 101.
The overwhelming evidence shows, that MOST compeitive shooters do not run a dedicated rear bag and just use their prop bag. If there was any advantage to a dedicated, those gaming mother fuckers would be using it.
I have to say that I just don’t see the issues with the MS that some of you are seeing. I’ve been using one for years and years and have thousands of rounds over one, of various calibers from. .223 to .338 LM and many in between. With suppressors and without, with brakes and without, various barrel profiles.
I’m not going to argue, as I just don’t care at this point. Just saying that I think some of it is self inflicted.
I’m not going to argue, as I just don’t care at this point. Just saying that I think some of it is self inflicted.
litz or tubb (i think tubb) said the magnetospeed moved the group location but didnt change group size
the groups seems to move "away" from the magneto speed
100 yard vertical stringing......fundamentals 99.9% of the time
edit: moved group with magneto attached to the "arm" not the barrel
the groups seems to move "away" from the magneto speed
100 yard vertical stringing......fundamentals 99.9% of the time
edit: moved group with magneto attached to the "arm" not the barrel
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If you don't see the issue, thats on you. It is there.
There is 100% a POI and sometimes group size shift when hanging something off the barrel. If a tuner which moves a small amount of weight around the barrel can effect it, I think a 1/2lb thing hanging would.
I chrono when I zero before every match. As soon as the MS comes off, I am looking at a .1-.2 shift. This is with Bartlien MTU and M24 barrels.
There is a reason people pay $2-400 for a device that hangs the MS from a rail instead of off the barrel. Go to a match and just about everyone with MS is using them.
There is 100% a POI and sometimes group size shift when hanging something off the barrel. If a tuner which moves a small amount of weight around the barrel can effect it, I think a 1/2lb thing hanging would.
I chrono when I zero before every match. As soon as the MS comes off, I am looking at a .1-.2 shift. This is with Bartlien MTU and M24 barrels.
There is a reason people pay $2-400 for a device that hangs the MS from a rail instead of off the barrel. Go to a match and just about everyone with MS is using them.
Me to. What made me wonder was the magneto speed I lost had a rubber heat shield/strap securing piece of silicon that went under the strap. I bought a used one that didn't come with that piece. i haven't used this new very much vs the old one. The old one I would have said it just moved the group. I feel like the new one shot strings on my 6 creed too,{picture from my 280} but couldn't say for sure. i am pretty sure my 20 practical didn't, but about all you feel on it is the BCG and spring running back and forth.
Maybe you completely missed the point of the bag then. It’s not for shooting steel plates from multiple positions in 90 seconds. The reference was specifically for shooting groups and long distances wherein any movement is an issue. Using your ‘logic’, ELR shooters would all be using GC bags. You don’t see that either now do you?
exactly
if your not shooting a bag that has bunny ears, is powdered or waxed and it doesnt weight a ton...your not talking precision
if your using a bipod and not a seb rest or alike...your not talking precision
I've never had an issue with the magnetospeed affecting group size through multiple barrels and cartridges.
POI - yes. Group size - no.
I agree on fundamentals. First place I would look at for the OP is breathing and how the rear bag is being handled.
Exactly.
Use the correct tool for the job.
A field expedient solution that requires quick engagement on multiple targets of 1+ moa precision in short time frames? Bipod + rear bag.
Trying to set a new BR world record? SEB front rests, solid bunny ear rear bags and stocks with rudders, etc.
I did not miss any point. One of the local matches has prone stages at 11-12-13 and 1450. Most people are shooting a dasher, 6 creed or GT with some 6.5's thrown in. One position 2 minutes, 10-12 targets. They run a match at least 3-4 times a year and that stage is always in there.
If there was ANY advantage to using a dedicated rear bag, people would carry one to go along with the 40lbs of other shit they have in their match bag. Since they don't, its easy to assume they are not needed.
ELR shooters almost exclusively shoot from a bench or prone with a rest and an ABR. You don't NEED to use one, it can just make things easier.
If you can't shoot tiny groups with a game changer as a rear bag, you suck at shooting. There is nothing more to it.
Might as well just have a robot shoot the gun at that point. BR is not the real world and for all practical purposes, almost no one here could even shoot to that level of accuracy.
For 99.99% of shooters, a game changer for MFC; there will be no perceivable difference in groups at distance.
My thought on blaming a shooter for vertical stringing in a clear, repeatable pattern is that this theory seems extremely improbable. It’s unlikely a shooter’s poor form/mechanics are causing such a consistent error as opposed to erratic POI’s.
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- Nov 3, 2010
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The horse is down by now, but one more kicks never hurt.
Just because “competition”, and prs aren’t using it as a majority doesn’t mean improper use won’t cause grouping issues. That was the context of the conversation.
Do you think competitive shooters care about their grouping? Their accuracy?
Spending thousands or tens of thousands a year to shoot, maybe they have an idea how the gun shoots and want the most accuracy they can reasonably get out. My match loads shoot in the .2-.3's. Do I need that level of accuracy? No. Is it nice to have and does it give you a mental edge with confidence that if I do my part, the gun will shoot there its aimed. There is a whole different arguement to be made about hit % and if you calculated the WEZ for a 3/8 and a 3/4 gun, even at 2-3MOA targets, you are going to see significantly more hits at distance with the tighter shooting gun just due to shot distribution.
If people would have grouping issues and after diagnoses, the root cause was the rear bag, do you not think they would change it? Would they add a lightweight small bag to a pack they already carry the kitchen sink in, if they thought it gave them an advantage? No shit they would.
As I said earlier, its pure ignorance and speculation that these Heavily marketed dedicated rear bag (That is the core product some of the site sponsers here sell) has any advantage over a quality positional bag like a Schmedium GC or MFC.
Everything I posted in the first post is 100% factual. I even mentioned the ABR but some of you can't read.
Spending thousands or tens of thousands a year to shoot, maybe they have an idea how the gun shoots and want the most accuracy they can reasonably get out. My match loads shoot in the .2-.3's. Do I need that level of accuracy? No. Is it nice to have and does it give you a mental edge with confidence that if I do my part, the gun will shoot there its aimed. There is a whole different arguement to be made about hit % and if you calculated the WEZ for a 3/8 and a 3/4 gun, even at 2-3MOA targets, you are going to see significantly more hits at distance with the tighter shooting gun just due to shot distribution.
If people would have grouping issues and after diagnoses, the root cause was the rear bag, do you not think they would change it? Would they add a lightweight small bag to a pack they already carry the kitchen sink in, if they thought it gave them an advantage? No shit they would.
As I said earlier, its pure ignorance and speculation that these Heavily marketed dedicated rear bag (That is the core product some of the site sponsers here sell) has any advantage over a quality positional bag like a Schmedium GC or MFC.
Everything I posted in the first post is 100% factual. I even mentioned the ABR but some of you can't read.
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I have competitive guys come through all the time with Chris Way and Riflekraft stuff. We have a lot more showing up in class too
We see verticals from them, they pull the rifles and why they use weighs to hold the front down and prevent stuff people are talking about
Competition scars are real, and you’re not as precise nor accurate as you think. In fact I slowed a top guy down last month he was peeling off the gun so fast he was moving things, increased his hits.
Comp people are sloppy
We see verticals from them, they pull the rifles and why they use weighs to hold the front down and prevent stuff people are talking about
Competition scars are real, and you’re not as precise nor accurate as you think. In fact I slowed a top guy down last month he was peeling off the gun so fast he was moving things, increased his hits.
Comp people are sloppy
Use the right tool for the job.
If people want to use GC's and MFC's, then have it. Personally I don't like using them as rear bags, I don't like their limitations in that role and it's definitely a compromise.
But to each their own.
Unless their flaws allow for vertical inconsistencies, such as breathing and rear bag management.
