Very disappointed

[Mean_Man]

168gr Hornady ELD-M
100 yards
65ish *F
30% humidity

$44 a box/20

CZ 600 Range
Vortex 5-25x56
Vortex pro rings
Ultradyne appolo muzzle brake

Hilariously this was probably my best shooting far as focus and trigger pull…

 

[Mean_Man]

10 shot 175gr FGMM SMK

Better, but still far from what I expected

 

[Mean_Man]

10 shot FGMM 168gr SMK

Best mean radius and best group… I guess it doesn’t like secant projectiles? Which is unfortunate since I bought 100, 178gr ELD-Match for hand loading….

 

[Mean_Man]

Other than 4 shots for bore sighting, 15 total shots of each of the 3 loads. (Didn’t post the 5 shot groups) so 39 rounds in total, cleaned and lubed before shot, and never let it get hot.

 

[Mean_Man]

I did take some chronograph data, often got focused on the groups so much and not breaking cheek weld I forgot to record them all. Velocities were speed wise box or better. Extreme spread wasn’t all that impressive from memory.

 

[Mean_Man]

I will also say, I didn't have a way to torque the jam nut to spec on the muzzle brake. This thing uses a jam nut... I don't see how over torquing it could compress the muzzle end and effect groups since all the force would be linear.... thoughts?

 

[Thump_rrr]

One box of one type of ammo doesn't prove anything.

I typically shoot hand loads but 2 summers ago I brought my rifle to Dead Zero Shooting Park in Tennessee to shoot 1,000y.

I ran out of my handloads at 600Y so I bought 2 boxes of 140gr FGMM 6.5CM (140gr SMK)
The 2 boxes shot between 1.23 moa-1.78 moa.
Not being satisfied I went back to the pro shop and bought 1 box of Sierra Custom Competition (140gr SMK) and 1 box of Hornady Match (147ELD-M). Both those boxes shot between 0.58 moa and 0.66 moa.

The FGMM and Sierra Custom Competition both use Federal brass and a 140Gr SMK. The results could not be more different between the 2.

 

[Mean_Man]

One box of one type of ammo doesn't prove anything.

I typically shoot hand loads but 2 summers ago I brought my rifle to Dead Zero Shooting Park in Tennessee to shoot 1,000y.

I ran out of my handloads at 600Y so I bought 2 boxes of 140gr FGMM 6.5CM (140gr SMK)
The 2 boxes shot between 1.23 moa-1.78 moa.
Not being satisfied I went back to the pro shop and bought 1 box of Sierra Custom Competition (140gr SMK) and 1 box of Hornady Match (147ELD-M). Both those boxes shot between 0.58 moa and 0.66 moa.

The FGMM and Sierra Custom Competition both use Federal brass and a 140Gr SMK. The results could not be more different between the 2.View attachment 8630065
View attachment 8630066
View attachment 8630067
View attachment 8630068
View attachment 8630069
View attachment 8630070

I'm glad you posted, because I was sitting here racking my brain and worrying myself about the muzzle brake maybe being over torqued and damaging the rifling somehow even though I don't see how it could compress the barrel given it uses a jam nut.

I did record some velocity data from some of the loads... some more than others as I would get so focused on the group I'd forget to record velocity, plus I didn't like breaking cheek weld...I'd love you're thoughts on just how BAD this is for factory match ammo.

24" barrel btw.

FGMM 168gr : 2666, 2715, 2720, 2661, 2646, 2691, 2741, 2745fps ES 99fps (seems bad)
FGMM 175gr : 2600, 2577, 2576
Hornady ELD-M : 2706, 2753

To me that looks pretty, bad. You can clearly see how I drifted from doing well with the recording everything to ugh... not as well. First time doing all this and setting up everything, messing with the kestrel just to record environmentals etc. and this was the first shots on the rifle so I was kind of still learning the rifle but the best group was the first shots and my best shooting I thought was at the end lol.

 

[smoothy8500]

ES 99fps (seems bad).....I'd love you're thoughts on just how BAD this is for factory match ammo.

Amazingly, FGMM 168 seems to shoot just as well at 600yds as 100, so it's not such a big deal.

 

[Mean_Man]

I'll post pictures tomorrow as the brass is in my shop, but the Hornady brass has a lot of marks on the case heads, the FGMM looks perfect. Makes me really wish I had recorded more of the velocity readings from that stuff... definitely not loaded weak...

Not sure if it plays into it at all, but this rifle has a manual ejector. So maybe head space could cause the marks I'm seeing on the Hornady brass if the shoulder is to far back from the factory?

Tumbled the brass in some corn cob media, lubed, neck sized, washed in lacquer thinner and dried. If the case was expanding both directions though due to something like the shoulder being to far back from the factory, not sure I want to load the brass...going to measure it, deburr etc. tomorrow and decide...

the powders I have on hand are CFE 223, Reloader 15, and Win 748... Not trying to hot rod anything, I just want to try each powder I already have... maybe 5 rounds each just to see what they do with a middle of the road charge.

 

[Thump_rrr]

I'll post pictures tomorrow as the brass is in my shop, but the Hornady brass has a lot of marks on the case heads, the FGMM looks perfect. Makes me really wish I had recorded more of the velocity readings from that stuff... definitely not loaded weak...

Not sure if it plays into it at all, but this rifle has a manual ejector. So maybe head space could cause the marks I'm seeing on the Hornady brass if the shoulder is to far back from the factory?

Tumbled the brass in some corn cob media, lubed, neck sized, washed in lacquer thinner and dried. If the case was expanding both directions though due to something like the shoulder being to far back from the factory, not sure I want to load the brass...going to measure it, deburr etc. tomorrow and decide...

the powders I have on hand are CFE 223, Reloader 15, and Win 748... Not trying to hot rod anything, I just want to try each powder I already have... maybe 5 rounds each just to see what they do with a middle of the road charge.

If you look at the photos I posted above You will see the 3 top photos have an average velocity of around 1440 fps @ 1,000Y (FGMM 140gr SMK)
2 of the bottom photos are around 1475 fps @ 1,000y (Sierra Custom Competition 140gr SMK)
One of the bottom photos has a velocity of 1558 fps @ 1,000y (Hornady 147gr ELD Match)

They must be pushing the Hornaady ammo much harder than the FGMM and Sierra Custom Competition to get a heavier bullet travelling that much quicker. It stands to reason tht you will see ejector marks and flatter primers.
I may still have that brass kicking around somewhere.
I'll post pictures if I find it.

Reloader 15 and Win 748 are on either side of Varget as far as burn rate goes. RE15 slightly faster and Win 748 slightly slower. CFE

 

[Rob01]

If you look at the photos I posted above You will see the 3 top photos have an average velocity of around 1440 fps @ 1,000Y (FGMM 140gr SMK)
2 of the bottom photos are around 1475 fps @ 1,000y (Sierra Custom Competition 140gr SMK)
One of the bottom photos has a velocity of 1558 fps @ 1,000y (Hornady 147gr ELD Match)

They must be pushing the Hornaady ammo much harder than the FGMM and Sierra Custom Competition to get a heavier bullet travelling that much quicker. It stands to reason tht you will see ejector marks and flatter primers.
I may still have that brass kicking around somewhere.
I'll post pictures if I find it.

More to it than velocity. BC plays into the velocity at 1000 also. The 140 SMK is a turd of a 6.5 bullet with a BC of .535, which is worse than some .308 bullets now, and the 147 ELD-M is .697. Less drag will allow there to be more retained velocity.

 

[diggler1833]

Different barrels have different preferences for bullets. One cannot simply state that a particular ammo is junk because their barrel didn't like it. Although, it is still frustrating when it happens to you.

I've shot four boxes of Hornady ammo in three different rifles over the last 2 years. It has been sub-minute in all cases (5 shot groups).

^ That being said, the ES and SD sucked in all four cases too. I think the lowest was 147gr match with an ES of 39. I've also had two over 60.

OP, I bet if you tried handloading the 168gr SMK, you'd be pretty happy. Your Reloader 15 was a staple for the .308 accuracy guys for many years, but has fallen out of favor due to its temperature sensitivity.

 

[Rob01]

If he handloaded he could probably get them all to work but the 168 SMK is the last bullet I would ever use for long range. But if shooting shorter inside 600 then it would work but still get pushed around more by the wind.

 

[Fig]

What kind of barrel are you shooting. That looks like classic, sporter barrel, heat stringing to me...

 

[308pirate]

More to it than velocity. BC plays into the velocity at 1000 also. The 140 SMK is a turd of a 6.5 bullet with a BC of .535, which is worse than some .308 bullets now, and the 147 ELD-M is .697. Less drag will allow there to be more retained velocity.

It's amazing to me how little analytical thinking goes into most of the responses in threads like this.

The post you're correctly replying to is a perfect example

 

[diggler1833]

If he handloaded he could probably get them all to work but the 168 SMK is the last bullet I would ever use for long range. But if shooting shorter inside 600 then it would work but still get pushed around more by the wind.

Agreed. The 168 is a much better bullet inside 600 than beyond.

 

[Wannashootit]

Contact CZ cust svc to find out what match ammo they use to verify sub-3/4 moa accuracy (their website states every rifle's accuracy is "verified". Then I'd get a box and see...

 

[Thump_rrr]

It's amazing to me how little analytical thinking goes into most of the responses in threads like this.

The post you're correctly replying to is a perfect example

This was the one and only time I have shot past 600M.

As I mentioned in the post I ran out of my hand loads which is the only reason I bought the FGMM. I’ve never shot 140SMK’s before that day
And my home range is only 400M so BC wasn’t even a consideration when selecting bullets.

What positive contribution have you made to this thread?

 

[Mean_Man]

Deprimed Hornady brass on the left, FGMM still has primers, neck sized the Hornady brass, measured case length, washed with lacquer thinner (to make sure all case lube was gone) cleaned primer pockets, loaded some CCi 200’s and loaded 5 with 43.8gr of W748, 5 with 41gr of RL-15 before wife got up to make pancakes… gotta go up and load 5 with CFE 223 in a bit… humidity was at or below 20% when I loaded the first two sets of 5… (have heard humidity exposure can slow down powder but probably talking about in a humid environment for prolonged exposure)

 

[Mean_Man]

Different barrels have different preferences for bullets. One cannot simply state that a particular ammo is junk because their barrel didn't like it. Although, it is still frustrating when it happens to you.

I've shot four boxes of Hornady ammo in three different rifles over the last 2 years. It has been sub-minute in all cases (5 shot groups).

^ That being said, the ES and SD sucked in all four cases too. I think the lowest was 147gr match with an ES of 39. I've also had two over 60.

OP, I bet if you tried handloading the 168gr SMK, you'd be pretty happy. Your Reloader 15 was a staple for the .308 accuracy guys for many years, but has fallen out of favor due to its temperature sensitivity.

Yeah, I was thinking about that this morning... I'd love to find some of the 15.5 TS locally I do have a few pounds of RL15 though so there's a high probability I'll buy some SMK's to load with it. Going to cross my fingers and toes though and hope with RL15 and it being an extruded powder that the Hornady ELD 178's and it play well. Went for mild charges on all three powders just trying to see how they group... I don't expect the ball powder's to do all that well, never know though and I got it so I figure eh, try 5.

 

[Rob01]

Don’t use lacquer thinner to wipe off lube. Just toss in the tumbler for a while. Unless you are loading in a sauna your home humidity will have no effect.

RL15 will work with my bullets in the .308. Not just SMKs. Should work just fine with the 178. Personally I wouldn’t use the other two powders with the .308. Just the RL15 or Varget or N140/150 if you can find any.

 

[Mean_Man]

What kind of barrel are you shooting. That looks like classic, sporter barrel, heat stringing to me...

The factory CZ 600 Range barrel which is hammer forged, but 0.875” so not a bull barrel but far from a sporter barrel.

 

[Fig]

I’m not familiar, but it ain’t no MTU or even a Palma. When I shoot my hunting rifles at the range I bring a Fluke gun and make sure they cool off between shots.

On your next trip try letting it cool off between shots and see if it brings it in. Not saying this is 100% the boggle, but the way they’re rising to the right looks like heat stringing. I have a dozen rifles that do that. Though, it could just not like that ammo…

 

[Mean_Man]

I’m not familiar, but it ain’t no MTU or even a Palma. When I shoot my hunting rifles at the range I bring a Fluke gun and make sure they cool off between shots.
View attachment 8630949

On your next trip try letting it cool off between shots and see if it brings it in. Not saying this is 100% the boggle, but the way they’re rising to the right looks like heat stringing. I have a dozen rifles that do that. Though, it could just not like that ammo…

Just to be clear, the rifle isn’t zeroed for any ammo, I just got it close to the point of aim and sent it for grouping, I figured besides that way I’m not chewing up my point of aim.

Also pay no attention to the numbers on the shots/holes, I don’t know which was what I just designated from the outside inward generally but duno which was the first or last impact.

 

[RaiderPower]

I've got a 600 Alpha that shoots the 175 FGMM at about 3/4 MOA; that was the first ammo and groups I shot with the rifle. It shoots the 178 ELDX Federal ammo right around MOA, but it seems like that's a fairly mild loading. That's all the factory ammo I've tried so far. The stock on that rifle seems like the limiting factory since the fore end is so flexible.

I just started working up loads for the CZ with the 175 gr. Barnes LRX and N540 gave me the best accuracy and velocity so far. What I've seen so far is this rifle likes hotter loads. With minimal work, it's just under .6 MOA with the LRX and N540. Dad has one in 6.5 creedmoor that seems like it will shoot too. He's only put about 15 rounds through it though.

Hopefully your rifle comes around.