Hey guys wondering if someone could help me think this one through, lets say you have multiple three shot groups with two rounds touching or almost in the same hole and then third flying out abit to ruin a nice group all with factory match ammo, yes i know 5 shots are good three is bad but however if thats what is called for and is seen in multiple groups shot of many of the exact same model rifle... and those of other calibers of the same model where would you start to point the finger as to the problem? reaming machine? improper barrel tourqing poundage? rifle twist rate off? has anyone seen this before and been able to properly diagnose it? and so you know i have gotten these groups as well as others of more respect than me in the shooting industry across the US whith the same models... ps to rull out shooters error same results obtained in a barrled action vise specific to rifle model
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Range Report very strange indeed...
- Thread starter jeep505090
- Start date
Re: very strange indeed...
the barrels are about a #7 contour they are pretty thick, so i would have to rule out the barrel heating up, length of time between shots is about 10-15 seconds and the groups are shot with ample time for the barrel to remain mild in temperture, crowns look fine and have uniform flash/powder burns? on them, not trying to discredit any ones theory just trying to provide more info as to why this could keep happening with multiple barrels and calibers.
the barrels are about a #7 contour they are pretty thick, so i would have to rule out the barrel heating up, length of time between shots is about 10-15 seconds and the groups are shot with ample time for the barrel to remain mild in temperture, crowns look fine and have uniform flash/powder burns? on them, not trying to discredit any ones theory just trying to provide more info as to why this could keep happening with multiple barrels and calibers.
Re: very strange indeed...
Can you clarify this in inches:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and then third flying out <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">abit </span></span>to ruin a nice group</div></div>
Is it a factory barrel? What is your setup - scope and all?
Can you clarify this in inches:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and then third flying out <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">abit </span></span>to ruin a nice group</div></div>
Is it a factory barrel? What is your setup - scope and all?
Re: very strange indeed...
Is that one shot flying out in any particular direction? Always to one side or the other or always high or always low? Each can give hints as to where to look for what is causing it.
Topstrap
Is that one shot flying out in any particular direction? Always to one side or the other or always high or always low? Each can give hints as to where to look for what is causing it.
Topstrap
Re: very strange indeed...
Having just gone through this myself with a precision AR, I feel your pain. I went what I thought was a painstaking process to eliminate all the variables that could cause this. The 1st question you need to ask is: does this pattern repeat or is the flyer random. IOW - is the flyer always low? Is it always the 1st or last or middle shot? Is the flyer always the same amount off from th e rest of the group? If the answer is no to any of these i.e. Random, then I would say somethings loose (scope, mount, barrel) or it's you.
Suggest you shoot 5 shot groups to start with. As Sako308 said, 3 shots is luck. Then I would vary the time betwen shots to rule out heating issues. Like wait until the barrel is completely cool between each shot. It sucks and is time consuming but you'll never know otherwise. Re-torque ALL your stuff - scope mounts, stock, everything you can get to. Try different ammo.
Good luck
Having just gone through this myself with a precision AR, I feel your pain. I went what I thought was a painstaking process to eliminate all the variables that could cause this. The 1st question you need to ask is: does this pattern repeat or is the flyer random. IOW - is the flyer always low? Is it always the 1st or last or middle shot? Is the flyer always the same amount off from th e rest of the group? If the answer is no to any of these i.e. Random, then I would say somethings loose (scope, mount, barrel) or it's you.
Suggest you shoot 5 shot groups to start with. As Sako308 said, 3 shots is luck. Then I would vary the time betwen shots to rule out heating issues. Like wait until the barrel is completely cool between each shot. It sucks and is time consuming but you'll never know otherwise. Re-torque ALL your stuff - scope mounts, stock, everything you can get to. Try different ammo.
Good luck
Re: very strange indeed...
Sounds like some of your bullets might be off in case alignment, .001-.002 can cause fliers as the ogive can contact one land first. I use a Horniday concentricity guage to align each loaded round to .000 if possible. With a max run out of .0005, this helped eliminate 95% of my fliers.
They still happen, but it is usually primer, powder, neck tension, hot, cold, powder location in case, or one of the unlimited different factors, which will drive you nuts trying to figure out.
Sounds like some of your bullets might be off in case alignment, .001-.002 can cause fliers as the ogive can contact one land first. I use a Horniday concentricity guage to align each loaded round to .000 if possible. With a max run out of .0005, this helped eliminate 95% of my fliers.
They still happen, but it is usually primer, powder, neck tension, hot, cold, powder location in case, or one of the unlimited different factors, which will drive you nuts trying to figure out.
Re: very strange indeed...
thanks guys for the insight, the scope and rings are mounted securley all this on factory barrels which are torqued to factory specs , 20 moa rail with a Nightforce 8-32 x56 NXS, in Nightforce rings, as to clairify in inches had the flier not been a flier it would have been under a 1/2" group the flier varies between 1/4"- 1/8" out of the two touching and is usually high either between 9-12 o'clock or from 3-12 o'clock from the center of the group, and is usualy the second or last shot, it was tried letting the barrle cool completley to shooting it hot to touch and the patterns remained with the rifles regardless of temperature effects which of course could be seen as over all group size did open up (before you say trigger and shooter, these same results were seen in an actions only vise) these results are from multiple groups from multiple rifles around 50-60 diffrent 3rnd groups were collected/ selected over an extended period of time(6 months to year time) frame highlighting these patterns. I was thinking a bedding problem might have something to do with it...(i will locate a rifle that has this pattern and bed a new stock in diffrent manner and with different compound), and the poundage to which the barrels are torqued down to, the ammo used varies but revolves around match grade ammo ie. FGMM,BHM,ect.. no handloads are used, i have a belief that the twist rate could be off with this pattern so prevelant in so many rifles of diffrent calibers all barrels are made using the same machine, could it be a calibration issue? keep the thoughts and opions coming thanks
thanks guys for the insight, the scope and rings are mounted securley all this on factory barrels which are torqued to factory specs , 20 moa rail with a Nightforce 8-32 x56 NXS, in Nightforce rings, as to clairify in inches had the flier not been a flier it would have been under a 1/2" group the flier varies between 1/4"- 1/8" out of the two touching and is usually high either between 9-12 o'clock or from 3-12 o'clock from the center of the group, and is usualy the second or last shot, it was tried letting the barrle cool completley to shooting it hot to touch and the patterns remained with the rifles regardless of temperature effects which of course could be seen as over all group size did open up (before you say trigger and shooter, these same results were seen in an actions only vise) these results are from multiple groups from multiple rifles around 50-60 diffrent 3rnd groups were collected/ selected over an extended period of time(6 months to year time) frame highlighting these patterns. I was thinking a bedding problem might have something to do with it...(i will locate a rifle that has this pattern and bed a new stock in diffrent manner and with different compound), and the poundage to which the barrels are torqued down to, the ammo used varies but revolves around match grade ammo ie. FGMM,BHM,ect.. no handloads are used, i have a belief that the twist rate could be off with this pattern so prevelant in so many rifles of diffrent calibers all barrels are made using the same machine, could it be a calibration issue? keep the thoughts and opions coming thanks
Re: very strange indeed...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The questions you are asking are answered by shooting larger sample group sizes. A couple of close rounds is nothing more than that. </div></div>
+1 after getting the additional info.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The questions you are asking are answered by shooting larger sample group sizes. A couple of close rounds is nothing more than that. </div></div>
+1 after getting the additional info.
Re: very strange indeed...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eric0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks guys for the insight, the scope and rings are mounted securley all this on factory barrels which are torqued to factory specs , 20 moa rail with a Nightforce 8-32 x56 NXS, in Nightforce rings, as to clairify in inches had the flier not been a flier it would have been under a 1/2" group the flier varies between 1/4"- 1/8" out of the two touching and is usually high either between 9-12 o'clock or from 3-12 o'clock from the center of the group, and is usualy the second or last shot, it was tried letting the barrle cool completley to shooting it hot to touch and the patterns remained with the rifles regardless of temperature effects which of course could be seen as over all group size did open up (before you say trigger and shooter, these same results were seen in an actions only vise) these results are from multiple groups from multiple rifles around 50-60 diffrent 3rnd groups were collected/ selected over an extended period of time(6 months to year time) frame highlighting these patterns. I was thinking a bedding problem might have something to do with it...(i will locate a rifle that has this pattern and bed a new stock in diffrent manner and with different compound), and the poundage to which the barrels are torqued down to, the ammo used varies but revolves around match grade ammo ie. FGMM,BHM,ect.. no handloads are used, i have a belief that the twist rate could be off with this pattern so prevelant in so many rifles of diffrent calibers all barrels are made using the same machine, could it be a calibration issue? keep the thoughts and opions coming thanks
</div></div>
Given that your "flyer" is off within a 180 degree arc high, I would have a hard time saying that the rifle is the sole cause. I can't imagine a twist issue would throw one bullet off and not the others. It sounds more like its either YOU pulling a shot or simply the variances of factory ammo. Even FGMM has higher ES and SD than any of my handloads - so just because its factory match ammo doesn't mean you're not going to occasionally get the odd bullet astray.
You never did say which bullet in the string was the flyer. Is it consistantly the 1st? Last? or middle?
Shoot 5-shot groups and post pics - otherwise I'd say your sample size is too small for any conclusive analysis. What kind of rife?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eric0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks guys for the insight, the scope and rings are mounted securley all this on factory barrels which are torqued to factory specs , 20 moa rail with a Nightforce 8-32 x56 NXS, in Nightforce rings, as to clairify in inches had the flier not been a flier it would have been under a 1/2" group the flier varies between 1/4"- 1/8" out of the two touching and is usually high either between 9-12 o'clock or from 3-12 o'clock from the center of the group, and is usualy the second or last shot, it was tried letting the barrle cool completley to shooting it hot to touch and the patterns remained with the rifles regardless of temperature effects which of course could be seen as over all group size did open up (before you say trigger and shooter, these same results were seen in an actions only vise) these results are from multiple groups from multiple rifles around 50-60 diffrent 3rnd groups were collected/ selected over an extended period of time(6 months to year time) frame highlighting these patterns. I was thinking a bedding problem might have something to do with it...(i will locate a rifle that has this pattern and bed a new stock in diffrent manner and with different compound), and the poundage to which the barrels are torqued down to, the ammo used varies but revolves around match grade ammo ie. FGMM,BHM,ect.. no handloads are used, i have a belief that the twist rate could be off with this pattern so prevelant in so many rifles of diffrent calibers all barrels are made using the same machine, could it be a calibration issue? keep the thoughts and opions coming thanks
</div></div>
Given that your "flyer" is off within a 180 degree arc high, I would have a hard time saying that the rifle is the sole cause. I can't imagine a twist issue would throw one bullet off and not the others. It sounds more like its either YOU pulling a shot or simply the variances of factory ammo. Even FGMM has higher ES and SD than any of my handloads - so just because its factory match ammo doesn't mean you're not going to occasionally get the odd bullet astray.
You never did say which bullet in the string was the flyer. Is it consistantly the 1st? Last? or middle?
Shoot 5-shot groups and post pics - otherwise I'd say your sample size is too small for any conclusive analysis. What kind of rife?
Re: very strange indeed...
I beleive i did post about the same patterns being achieved in an "actions only rest" with a mechanical trigger pull and no human factor involved except placing the rifle in and tightining the screws for the rest, and it is usually the second or third shot that is the spoiler pleas re-read the post its there I am very aware of shooter caused patterns or fliers however when there is no human involved when these patterns were recorded and were prevlant when human shooters were involved, Reaper i do hear you on the deviances in factory match ammo but it is what is used for testing , as for the kind of rifle the pattern is displayed with tactical and hunting rifle sytles i would rather leave the name out as to not ruin their reputation or bad mouth them, pleas keep the thoughts and opions coming i posted this here because i belive it is a problem with the way they are built because of data collected from actions only rests, so pleas try and foucs on that aspect not the whole shooter deal which i am aware of, will try and get some pics up.., might have to fight a few engineers though to get them. thanks again in advance.
I beleive i did post about the same patterns being achieved in an "actions only rest" with a mechanical trigger pull and no human factor involved except placing the rifle in and tightining the screws for the rest, and it is usually the second or third shot that is the spoiler pleas re-read the post its there I am very aware of shooter caused patterns or fliers however when there is no human involved when these patterns were recorded and were prevlant when human shooters were involved, Reaper i do hear you on the deviances in factory match ammo but it is what is used for testing , as for the kind of rifle the pattern is displayed with tactical and hunting rifle sytles i would rather leave the name out as to not ruin their reputation or bad mouth them, pleas keep the thoughts and opions coming i posted this here because i belive it is a problem with the way they are built because of data collected from actions only rests, so pleas try and foucs on that aspect not the whole shooter deal which i am aware of, will try and get some pics up.., might have to fight a few engineers though to get them. thanks again in advance.
Re: very strange indeed...
Unless the rifle is removed from the stock and bolted onto a machine rest, the rifle could be moving. My guess is that the rifle doesn't like that ammo. I would try a different loading. I also agree that you need to shoot more shots per group to get valid data.
Unless the rifle is removed from the stock and bolted onto a machine rest, the rifle could be moving. My guess is that the rifle doesn't like that ammo. I would try a different loading. I also agree that you need to shoot more shots per group to get valid data.
Re: very strange indeed...
the results obtained with the patterns where bolted into an actions only rest, and also repeated with a human shooter. If it was a 5 shot group the pattern of the first three would still be there... not to open a diffrent can of worms but, three 5 shot groups or five 3 shot groups is still the same amount of rounds.... and were talking about data that was saved over a long period of time with mulitple calibers .223, .308, .300
the results obtained with the patterns where bolted into an actions only rest, and also repeated with a human shooter. If it was a 5 shot group the pattern of the first three would still be there... not to open a diffrent can of worms but, three 5 shot groups or five 3 shot groups is still the same amount of rounds.... and were talking about data that was saved over a long period of time with mulitple calibers .223, .308, .300
Re: very strange indeed...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">three 5 shot groups or five 3 shot groups is still the same amount of rounds</div></div>
Same number of rounds - yes.
Equal information from the data - NO.
For example: maybe the next 2 shots fill in the area between your "flier" and the 2 close shots. Now what have you got? A larger group and no flier.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">three 5 shot groups or five 3 shot groups is still the same amount of rounds</div></div>
Same number of rounds - yes.
Equal information from the data - NO.
For example: maybe the next 2 shots fill in the area between your "flier" and the 2 close shots. Now what have you got? A larger group and no flier.
Re: very strange indeed...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The questions you are asking are answered by shooting larger sample group sizes. A couple of close rounds is nothing more than that. </div></div>
+1 after getting the additional info. </div></div>
+1 +1 = +2 More data is definitely your friend if you really want to know whether the flier is indeed a flier. Also, could be weather (wind, light), trigger control, venus in retrograde, etc. Too many variables with too little data.
Tell you what. You tell me what kind of confidence you want to have to bound what percentage of shots, and what you think the actual precision of the rifle is (.whatever MOA) and I'll give you the number of rounds you need to shoot to confirm it.
Or if you want to stick w/ 3 shot tests, from my impressions, I can tell you with about 95% confidence that 95% of the time you have better than or equal to a 4 MOA rifle.
Statistics is your friend if you want to know that you can't know what you think you know, but you can sort of know, ya know?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308sako</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The questions you are asking are answered by shooting larger sample group sizes. A couple of close rounds is nothing more than that. </div></div>
+1 after getting the additional info. </div></div>
+1 +1 = +2 More data is definitely your friend if you really want to know whether the flier is indeed a flier. Also, could be weather (wind, light), trigger control, venus in retrograde, etc. Too many variables with too little data.
Tell you what. You tell me what kind of confidence you want to have to bound what percentage of shots, and what you think the actual precision of the rifle is (.whatever MOA) and I'll give you the number of rounds you need to shoot to confirm it.
Or if you want to stick w/ 3 shot tests, from my impressions, I can tell you with about 95% confidence that 95% of the time you have better than or equal to a 4 MOA rifle.
Statistics is your friend if you want to know that you can't know what you think you know, but you can sort of know, ya know?
Re: very strange indeed...
thats a solid copy on shooting five shot groups i understand where you all are coming from, I hear you all on the larger groups but 3 rnds, thats what is required from the gun, arguing anything else which is better is mute however i do agree with 5 shot groups but im not the one calling the big shots you all catch my drift? remeber half these vairables wind weather ect are out for the most part as shot in an indoor range in a rest... aside from that when the broad spectrum of rifles are looked at 75% shoot under 1/2" consistantley then the other 25% displays this pattern, with the data that has been collected im sure their is something that can derived what could be causing this ie, barrel harmonics, bad reaming machine, improper twist rate, heating treating issues... ect... thanks working on getting photos posted
thats a solid copy on shooting five shot groups i understand where you all are coming from, I hear you all on the larger groups but 3 rnds, thats what is required from the gun, arguing anything else which is better is mute however i do agree with 5 shot groups but im not the one calling the big shots you all catch my drift? remeber half these vairables wind weather ect are out for the most part as shot in an indoor range in a rest... aside from that when the broad spectrum of rifles are looked at 75% shoot under 1/2" consistantley then the other 25% displays this pattern, with the data that has been collected im sure their is something that can derived what could be causing this ie, barrel harmonics, bad reaming machine, improper twist rate, heating treating issues... ect... thanks working on getting photos posted
Re: very strange indeed...
How confident are you in the consistency of the rest fixture? Do two groups shot at different time have a repeatable zero? Or is there a POI shift in the groups?
First thing I'd point the finger at is the fasteners connecting rifle to rest. Anything that could cause intermittent interference fit or an alignment problem that is only realized after shock loading (i.e. recoil impulse from previous shot(s) causes intermittent shift in fitup)
Also, if you come up short on everything, check gages that you think measure critical attributes, and make sure they are providing correct measurements. Seen some snafus from precision instruments that somehow weren't measuring the right way...
How confident are you in the consistency of the rest fixture? Do two groups shot at different time have a repeatable zero? Or is there a POI shift in the groups?
First thing I'd point the finger at is the fasteners connecting rifle to rest. Anything that could cause intermittent interference fit or an alignment problem that is only realized after shock loading (i.e. recoil impulse from previous shot(s) causes intermittent shift in fitup)
Also, if you come up short on everything, check gages that you think measure critical attributes, and make sure they are providing correct measurements. Seen some snafus from precision instruments that somehow weren't measuring the right way...
Re: very strange indeed...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eric0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thats a solid copy on shooting five shot groups i understand where you all are coming from, I hear you all on the larger groups but 3 rnds, thats what is required from the gun, arguing anything else which is better is mute however i do agree with 5 shot groups but im not the one calling the big shots you all catch my drift? remeber half these vairables wind weather ect are out for the most part as shot in an indoor range in a rest... aside from that when the broad spectrum of rifles are looked at 75% shoot under 1/2" consistantley then the other 25% displays this pattern, with the data that has been collected im sure their is something that can derived what could be causing this ie, barrel harmonics, bad reaming machine, improper twist rate, heating treating issues... ect... thanks working on getting photos posted </div></div>
I'm not sure what you mean by 3-shot groups are "required". Are you shooting these to advertise and sell a rifle or a gunsmith to show that his "accuracy tweaks" are good?
Even aside from the issue of 3-shot groups or not - you never said WHICH of the 3 shots was the flyer. Again.... is it random or is it always a specific shot like the 1st of the group? If its always the 1st - then its potentially a heating issue, a chambering issue of ouf a mag, etc. OTOH, If its randomly the 1st, 2nd or 3rd shot of your group - then who knows. Its probably just the inherent accuracy of the gun or somethings loose. Also, if the flyer is randomly off in direction from the center of the other two (clock position-wise) then it will be impossible to pinpoint without more data points.
Sorry, but while 3-shots may be "required" for whatever your reasons are - you'll most likely be stuck for a true solution with such few data points.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eric0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thats a solid copy on shooting five shot groups i understand where you all are coming from, I hear you all on the larger groups but 3 rnds, thats what is required from the gun, arguing anything else which is better is mute however i do agree with 5 shot groups but im not the one calling the big shots you all catch my drift? remeber half these vairables wind weather ect are out for the most part as shot in an indoor range in a rest... aside from that when the broad spectrum of rifles are looked at 75% shoot under 1/2" consistantley then the other 25% displays this pattern, with the data that has been collected im sure their is something that can derived what could be causing this ie, barrel harmonics, bad reaming machine, improper twist rate, heating treating issues... ect... thanks working on getting photos posted </div></div>
I'm not sure what you mean by 3-shot groups are "required". Are you shooting these to advertise and sell a rifle or a gunsmith to show that his "accuracy tweaks" are good?
Even aside from the issue of 3-shot groups or not - you never said WHICH of the 3 shots was the flyer. Again.... is it random or is it always a specific shot like the 1st of the group? If its always the 1st - then its potentially a heating issue, a chambering issue of ouf a mag, etc. OTOH, If its randomly the 1st, 2nd or 3rd shot of your group - then who knows. Its probably just the inherent accuracy of the gun or somethings loose. Also, if the flyer is randomly off in direction from the center of the other two (clock position-wise) then it will be impossible to pinpoint without more data points.
Sorry, but while 3-shots may be "required" for whatever your reasons are - you'll most likely be stuck for a true solution with such few data points.
