Ask the Seattle East Precinct... Every bit as bought and paid for, as the halls of Congress.
I have no sympathies. Just pointing out fallacies and contradictions. Don't make those kinds of points unless you defend them for everyone.
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Video of the shooting of our girl in DC
- Thread starter Steel head
- Start date
Ask the Seattle East Precinct... Every bit as bought and paid for, as the halls of Congress.
I have no sympathies. Just pointing out fallacies and contradictions. Don't make those kinds of points unless you defend them for everyone.
you are only torn to shreds when you are wrong or a moron....you have both going for you in this case.
you cant operate on what weapons you THINK they may have...hell if that was the case i could shoot anyone because i "thought" they had a weapon.....
THERE IS NO THREAT TO LIFE.....ergo, no deadly force is justified.......you cannot use deadly force to defend a building.
this is really not hard.
and if you could read, you would note that i said this would be clear regardless of her political beliefs.
sorry, cops cant just shoot people.......even if it is a capital building.
she must have been wearing one of those "assault backpacks" if it warrants getting shot over.
Fact.
The most dangerous people on Earth, are the "what if" people. If there's some stupid scenario that they can contrive to justify their ill-conceived actions, they will find a way to "make it happen, Cap'n".
There was a local dumbass who advertised online that he did FFL transfers - and cheap, too. But when I called to have a brand new competition AR lower transferred from JP, he refused, on the grounds that "there's too many of those used in crimes". Idiot.
Was the police precinct taken by armed force? Were weapons pointed at officers? Or was the actual killing done against individuals, and nothing to do with the protests?
Clever attempt at an "aha" moment. But nope.
This is the part where you accuse me of being a leftist.
I'm definitely not gonna say that you're right or wrong. People take their sides, and they hold their lines. Very seldom do they bother to try to apply logic consistently. Doesn't really matter who we are talking about. Large groups of people just aren't capable.
They absolutely were armed, and open carrying, which is/was their lawful right. I've been commenting on my experiences with this in another thread. I literally spent every single day that the CHAZ/CHOP existed, walking freely, therein. While I was not sympathetic to the cause - mostly because I was just sick of the self-destructive social justice excesses - I was pretty shocked at some of the BS that was being reported to the outside world.
That whole thing was just Seattle doing what Seattle always does. Albeit, with a little extra drama.
Calm down. Same team. This is a minor internet disagreement.
I'm not about to pretend to know the rules of engagement applicable to the capitol police. I'm not an attorney either, but a quick google search on the authority of the capitol police will bring up 2 U.S. Code1966(a), which reads:
(a)Authority of the Capitol Police
Subject to the direction of the Capitol Police Board, the United States Capitol Police is authorized to protect, in any area of the United States, the person of any Member of Congress, officer of the Congress, as defined in section 4101(b) of this title, and any member of the immediate family of any such Member or officer, if the Capitol Police Board determines such protection to be necessary.
I doubt he was defending the building. More likely representatives behind that barricade. If so, he's operating in a capacity more akin to the secret service than a normal police officer and your basic rules of engagement may not apply. I'm guessing it was his responsibility to make sure the mob didn't get to the representatives behind the barricade and that's where the line was drawn. He can't protect them if a mob 200 strong is already on top of them. An angry mob is a threat to life, armed or not.
I don't think the woman in the Capitol deserved to be shot, any more than I think that the protesters in Seattle deserved to be tear gassed and flash banged. People lost eyes, and hearing. Simply because they disagreed with the way their community was being managed. And you know what? Agree or disagree, it's their right. Same as what happened at the Capitol.
sounds fair
well the thing is, SS still have to have a reasonable expectation of death or bodily harm inorder to use deadly force.....that is going to be pretty standard with ANY civilian law enforcement agency.
now if we look at whether an "angry mob" is a "threat to life"......well thats where it gets trickier.
there is nothing illegal with being angry......there is nothing illegal with being angry with 200 friends....
it IS illegal to break into a building....they have them on Breaking and entering, destruction of property, and trespassing....plus a bunch of other shit.
however....that is not in its self grounds for deadly force.
oddly enough, if someone walks into your house....hell, if they break a window and crawl in......even THAT is not grounds to shoot someone. we are talking strictly the leter of the law, not what you can "get away with"....because even though they are there without your permission, they broke in.....you still are not able to claim SD unless they are posing a threat to your life.
if an unarmed 90lb female with a developmental cognitive disorder (aka retarded) breaks into your home....thats an inconvience, but you are going to have a hard time claiming shes a "threat to your life"
im actually going somewhere with this....i promise
someone has to demonstrate MEANS, MOTIVE, AND OPPORTUNITY for self defense to be valid.
they have to have the physical ability to hurt you
they have to have an expressed desire to hurt you(verbally or non verbally)
and they have to have the opportunity to hurt you
a quadriplegic tied to a hospital bed, even if you are right next to him and he says "im going to kill you"....does not have the means, and you cannot reasonably "fear for your life"
a 250lb body builder with a sidearm standing next to you has mean and opportunity.....but unless hes expressed his motivation (either verbally or physically)... you are not "reasonably in fear for your life"
and if you have that 250lb body builder, hell, armed with a shank, and saying he wants to kill you......but he is in a prison cell......well he has means and motivation.......but he doesnt have the opportunity......seeing has hes behind bars and cannot actually hurt you.....you cannot "reasonably fear for your life"
......now if we look at this "angry mob".......sure, they have means(if taken collectively)......one could argue opportunity...but motivation...there was no clear motivation to harm anyone.
the mob had not attacked anyone (even when presented with the option).....the mob was not claiming they were going to kill anyone.....so its hard to claim you felt your life was "in danger"
now......taken individually, which is where we are really at....because we need to seperate her action from those around her.....we cannot hold her personally responisble for what others are doing.
she DID NOT have the means.....its hard to claim a 100lb unarmed woman is a threat to your life.
she DID NOT have a motive......from what i can tell, she had not harmed anyone.....and was not claiming either.
she DID have opportunity......but that alone is not cause for one to "fear for their life"
now if we follow your explanation to its logical conclusion.....that would greenlight police to roll up to a protest, and just start mowing down the angry mob....
i hope that all makes sense, im not exactly sober atm.
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They're not dreading anything. Get real man. The media has already justified this homicide before the investigation is done.
This is all true at the individual level, but the game changes when dealing with a mob, even if said mob is unarmed. This precedent was set in state v. foley back in 1925, and that situation closely resembles what we saw at the capitol. Rocks were thrown through windows and the occupants opened fire on the mob outside. They were acquitted.
Against a Mob: Surviving in the Street and in Court | USCCA - CCM (usconcealedcarry.com)
Take the citation for what it's worth. I can't verify the authors corrections, but the cases cited check out.
When a mob is involved, each participant shares responsibility for the actions of the mob and the mob itself is treated as a collective threat, rather than at the individual level. I don't think we have details yet, but another officer supposedly died of injuries sustained during the clash, so there's definitely an argument to be made that the officer felt his life was in danger.
US Capitol Police officer dies after DC riots (nypost.com)
Her death looks like it was avoidable and frankly, that sucks. But as much as I want to I still can't bring myself to condemn the officer given the circumstances. Maybe he freaked out. Maybe he was a trigger happy asshole. Who knows. Lets see how this plays out once the details are in.
If it was a black woman protestor dc would be burning. Tell me I’m wrong?
Communication.
I am willing to wager that the local police, capital police and whatever other departments don't have the ability to communicate amongst each other without going through dispatch. So the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
What are the orders for the post this officer is on? None of us know so to make a decision on his actions is a coin toss.
If he's hearing from his team that the perimeter has been breached and further updates on the mob descending on his position I would think that his adrenaline is pumping. He's barricaded the door and taken a position of cover. He doesn't know who the guys in black are and the shit hits the fan when the glass is smashed. Double pump of adrenaline and tunnel vision is on the first person through.
I bet that even an hour later he couldn't tell you what color the person he shot was.
There's a reason why you train. It's called muscle memory because when the SHTF and you are running on adrenaline there's a disconnect in the brain. Rational thought goes out the window and your training takes over.
This officer probably never dreamed of being in the situation just because of the post. It's not like he's patrolling the dark corners of DC he's in the capital building chamber. Now his brain is going OHH SHIT, OHH SHIT, OHH SHIT
That said. I will give him some slack.
Fight Flight Freeze is crazy
I am willing to wager that the local police, capital police and whatever other departments don't have the ability to communicate amongst each other without going through dispatch. So the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
What are the orders for the post this officer is on? None of us know so to make a decision on his actions is a coin toss.
If he's hearing from his team that the perimeter has been breached and further updates on the mob descending on his position I would think that his adrenaline is pumping. He's barricaded the door and taken a position of cover. He doesn't know who the guys in black are and the shit hits the fan when the glass is smashed. Double pump of adrenaline and tunnel vision is on the first person through.
I bet that even an hour later he couldn't tell you what color the person he shot was.
There's a reason why you train. It's called muscle memory because when the SHTF and you are running on adrenaline there's a disconnect in the brain. Rational thought goes out the window and your training takes over.
This officer probably never dreamed of being in the situation just because of the post. It's not like he's patrolling the dark corners of DC he's in the capital building chamber. Now his brain is going OHH SHIT, OHH SHIT, OHH SHIT
That said. I will give him some slack.
Fight Flight Freeze is crazy
You are unbelievable really and then you wonder why you are where you are. In early 2000+ i posted some insights from ex "commie" land and how US is turning into a shithole and most of you ridiculed and laughed. Then in early 2010 you stopped laughing (some of you) and figured out that you're being fucked. Now after Trump (name is irrelevant as he is just a front to be vilified - his "charming" personality sure helps here but i digress...) has been railroaded by basically everyone he chose or have appointed from a pool of professional establishment bureaucrats some of you are really completely unbelievable in your reactions. You discuss whether or not "run on Capitol" was justified or not (while some of you at the same time sat at home and went full retard with keyboard commando shit and your fellow men went live in DC) and whether or not an unarmed person posing no threat to anyone "got what she deserved" while completely ignoring her being a faithful soldier enabling you your bravado and in the end being "judged" by a similar soldier in your nations capital city - oh the irony.
Facts are that not that "there is no voting fraud evidence" but that all courts from lowest county shithole judge up to SCOTUS REFUSED to take a look and make a decision on whether or not there is or there are no evidence. Which means (for everyone but a complete retards or people lying themselves) that rule of law is non existent (i would say this has been the case for a while now but now its just in plain sight) and that society is basically gone, splintered into us and them. And as now you are being them you will feel the full wrath of establishment that will attack "old values" on every front. For example in 1stA starts with Congress shall pass no law... and yet most of you have accepted that some form of legislation on speech is acceptable (hate speech, nazi speech, race speech etc...) which means that path to an extreme has been set a while ago.
SO by all means go and bitch and moan but i think the time for typing has passed things that will follow will not afford such luxury as we have had it here while typing our thoughts and opinions soon the tools will have to change or we will sink into new darkages where global nuclear exchange appears a better option...
To add an insight into next few months:
www.paulcraigroberts.org
Facts are that not that "there is no voting fraud evidence" but that all courts from lowest county shithole judge up to SCOTUS REFUSED to take a look and make a decision on whether or not there is or there are no evidence. Which means (for everyone but a complete retards or people lying themselves) that rule of law is non existent (i would say this has been the case for a while now but now its just in plain sight) and that society is basically gone, splintered into us and them. And as now you are being them you will feel the full wrath of establishment that will attack "old values" on every front. For example in 1stA starts with Congress shall pass no law... and yet most of you have accepted that some form of legislation on speech is acceptable (hate speech, nazi speech, race speech etc...) which means that path to an extreme has been set a while ago.
SO by all means go and bitch and moan but i think the time for typing has passed things that will follow will not afford such luxury as we have had it here while typing our thoughts and opinions soon the tools will have to change or we will sink into new darkages where global nuclear exchange appears a better option...
To add an insight into next few months:
America’s Color Revolution |
www.paulcraigroberts.org
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The BACKPACKS,
The BACKPACKS,
Oh, the horror, the horror, "kurtz".
If breaking in with backpacks was the criteria, he had a very target rich environment available. He didnt have enough bullets.
And with all the free target men in that pic, no women, kinda wonder did his mom touch him wrong, or his wife leave him, or his sister abuse him, or,
maybe at a sextoy party, the women took the toys out of backpacks and abused him.
Yes, the backpack argument for shooting is just as silly as my paragraph above.
Oh, the horror, the backpacks, the horror, the backpacks.
She was collateral damage to fear.
Fear is a bad thing in a mob.
Fear is a bad thing with a gun.
Fear, mob, gun, totality of the confusion, the people there as a whole, are very lucky no more shots were fired and a bigger loss of innocent life.
RIP Ashli Babbitt. May your death not be in vain.
Best to you Vinnie, no offense intended.
Lin wood is now saying Ashli is alive and it was a psy op.
Wow !
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Lin 'I Am A Big Problem' Wood, should be his new name...
He's a loose cannon in need of serious securing....
FUCK Lin Wood.
So, what is the acceptable ratio of unarmed assailants to meet your requisite use of deadly force plateau?
10 to 1? 15 to 1? 100 to 1?
If you were on the street, with no escape, and accosted by 20 unarmed assailants, I would expect you to use something besides deadly force.
BTDT, got the tee shirt with 38 years of LE.
I didnt use deadly force, I used a smile.
Until they put their hands on me.
Best to you FD.
In your 38 years, how often were you surrounded by hundreds of protesters?
I see you chose not to address the question I posed.
What is the acceptable ratio?
So is this Congress cunt going to immediately issue a plea for release of Rittenhouse and dropping of all charges against all that defended themselves from mobs for the last year, whom weren’t afforded police protection??! No problem not and that’s more more check Mark on the page or irreconcilable differences page.
so he killed someone cause a Congress cunt told him he had to? Sounds like time for Another Nuremberg trial
I was surrounded a couple of times, got my ass beat a couple of times.
There is no acceptable ratio. It all depends on the assailants use of force.
And, I answered your question with the sentence, "Until they put their hands on me"... one or 100, 0r 1000, didnt matter until their use of force TOUCHED me.
If you were professional LE, you would know that and not shit stir on an internet board. Yes, I know u LE, or were.
My job was to serve and protect them ALL, and that included the protesters. They are citizens of the Republic just like me, entitled to the same fair treatment as anyone. And I did my best to hold that line in my career because it was the oath I took, just like you.
Best to you.
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These weren't officers doing their duty in the community. They were participating in a coup. So I don't know why anyone cares what their ROE or redline or whatever the fuck was. They lost any authority they may have had. Fuck every one of them strait to Hell.
Context is everything. The backpack in and of itself was irrelevant. When it's attached to someone forcing their way into a restricted area of the capitol that refuses to stand down despite a weapon pointed at his or her face it becomes one of many factors that must be taken into consideration when assessing the situation.
If a dude in a galabiyya with a backpack decided to force his way past TSA security and refused to halt when drawn upon I wouldn't condemn an officer for shooting either. If he was but ass naked and or in form fitting clothes then my opinion might be different. The backpack isn't the cornerstone of the argument, it's just something to consider.
Spot on about fear and collateral damage though.
Just playing the devils advocate here. I'm not siding with the cop or Ashley. I'm just not ready to condemn anyone. Everything you said about fear and collateral damage is spot on.
you miss the point, you don't know what was happening there, I don't know what was happening there.
They were vastly outnumbered, just a few months ago, there were folks on this board saying they should be shooting rioters, now they suddenly have had a change of heart.
I see you have resorted to attacks on my integrity. Nice.
I am not stirring shit, I am pointing out the hypocrisy.
As I said previously, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't know why deadly force was applied, I'm not going to speculate, but many here are calling for the officers head without context.
If he committed a crime, he should go to prison.
But then again, if she wasn't in the act of attempting to forcefully breach a protective barrier, she likely wouldn't have been shot.
Here is my thing, if the angry mob is the standard by which we go by to use deadly force then why was Kyle arrested? Why were the people arrested in Illinois or wherever it was for standing outside their homes while an angry mob broke through their neighborhood gates and started marching through their neighborhood. The issue most people have right now is the double standards, unequal application of the law etc. Why is it perfectly ok for this guy to shoot and kill someone in a mob while others have had the book thrown at them for doing the same thing, one of which was actively being pursued and physical harm imminent, yet it wasn’t ok for him to use force? You can’t have it both ways. Are politicians lives that much more important than anyone else’s? Let’s be real here. In this country we are all supposed to be equal but it sure feels like we aren’t being treated as equals. Y’all feel me?
All said and done, the swat team behind her, who immediately went to her aid, didnt consider her or her actions a threat. They responded to all visual stimuli and, in my experience, appropriately.
Your differing scenarios about the perp n backpack are all real things that have happened in LE or Mil, and each had to be judged in context b4 measured use of force against them. All of your projected scenarios are real enough to warrant training points, and ultimately come down to a judgment call by the actor officer who faces them.
It's not a good place to be, in the officers shoes, and fear, often determines the result.
The fallout, is never pretty. Human error is, and always will be judged after the fact, harshly.
All of us, can only hope that we, will be judged fairly, in the harshness that follows.
Best to you Brother Vinnie.
No offense.
You assumed we could read between the lines all you were doing was pointing out the hypocrisy.
Your ? to me, had nothing to do with your much better worded response captioned above. Your last response is clear and concise on meaning.
Asking a shoot/dont shoot ratio, come on....
WTF does that have to do with hypocrisy.
Therefore my needle to you, one officer to another. Your second answer was much much better, clearer, and in line with what i have seen from you in the past. And, good job on that, thank you.
In any event, her action, breaching a line, is not sufficient probable cause for deadly force on its face, PrimaFacie... if her feet were on the ground and she were rushing me after coming through the window..... in my first 10 years, I would have shot her. In my second 10, maybe, depending on what she did next. Third 10, not unless she went crazy as fuck and attacked somebody. Now, I'd have walked up to her and shoved her back through the window, and made a snide comment that would have gotten me fired later.
Because the years of experience gave me that. After running the swat team, yes, ded people, and the won law suits, I might have a seriously different track than you. Very seriously different track.
The internet is not a friendly medium to judge another officer on, between two officers discussing a topic such as this.
Your response to my needle, appropriately professional. Thank you.
And now this guy is going off about the poor Capitol police officer that died Wednesday, nothing about the women that they killed. And he basically said they can do what they want and if they want to impeach trump they will. We definitely don't have any representation in this country anymore we have people who think they are rulers.
The disgusting cancel culture is trying to deny this woman a military funeral!!! After four tours in Afghanistan!
This is what I come to the Bear Pit for: some thoughtful, insightful, and sometimes spirited discussion. I hope the upcoming changes don't take much of this kind of stuff away.
Donald Trump: (00:00)
“I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem. I immediately deployed the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders. America is and must always be a nation of law and order.”
Donald Trump: (00:25)
“The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. To those who engaged in the acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law, you will pay. We have just been through an intense election and emotions are high, but now tempers must be cooled and calm restored. We must get on with the business of America.””
Entire speach from yesterday:
“I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem. I immediately deployed the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders. America is and must always be a nation of law and order.”
Donald Trump: (00:25)
“The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. To those who engaged in the acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law, you will pay. We have just been through an intense election and emotions are high, but now tempers must be cooled and calm restored. We must get on with the business of America.””
Entire speach from yesterday:
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I guess if you can defile a used up crackwhore. I'm thinking defile does not apply here.
defile
Definition of defile
(Entry 1 of 3)
transitive verb
: to make unclean or impure
a : to corrupt the purity or perfection of
b : to violate the chastity or virginity of
c : to make physically unclean especially with something unpleasant or contaminating
d : to violate the sanctity of
e : sully, dishonor
defile
Definition of defile
(Entry 1 of 3)
transitive verb
: to make unclean or impure
a : to corrupt the purity or perfection of
b : to violate the chastity or virginity of
c : to make physically unclean especially with something unpleasant or contaminating
d : to violate the sanctity of
e : sully, dishonor
He pointed for way to long before he shot to be a muscle memory reflex. I heard no audible warnings in the video that had sound. I’ve only seen the shooters arm and pistol. Anyone see a face of shooter?
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... God DAYUM! This is a stinging rebuke!
Are you all sure that you're following the same guy? Or has he been replaced with a body double? Can't wait to hear the spin on this...
It would be a tragedy to find out that you've been duped... like all those "ANTIFA sympathizers" - whether they are, or whether they just think differently, and classified, by default - have been telling you all along.
If I were a conspiracy theorist, right now I'd be asking... Was this guy installed to help ensure that America was pissed off enough to vote full Democrat? True colors time...
Like I said earlier - the behavior of the people at the Capitol looks EXACTLY like the behaviors of people in Seattle and Portland over the summer. The only person who seems to be consistent in this situation right now, ironically, is Donald Trump.
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