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Rifle Scopes Viper PST 6-24 Failure - AGAIN!

#51
DeepEastKilla said:
Holy schmidt. If someone isn't trashing people for talking about a bad experience then someone else is there to talk crap about the company themselves. So much ego...

Anyway. The replacement "turd" is re zeroed and shooting just fine so far. I put ~50rnds through it and as you would expect there is no signs of issue. The video I took really doesn't address the scope itself, rather its just a few clips and some screwing around. I'll link it up when the video is finally uploaded for those of you who need a video rather than the words spewing from my rear.
Click to expand...

Cry me a river. When you started this thread you were disappointed about having to send two scopes back with admitted light use and were ready to shit can them. Now that they gave you a new one and a reach around you're happy again. Until you get off the bench you'll probably remain tickled pink by their warranty because that's all you have with it.

I'm surprised nobody has posted the clip from black sheep yet.
 
#52
I know there are a ton of vortex scopes out there but damn there is also a lot of these threads of great CS but always accompanied by an issue. Does not matter what forum you are on there is the same conversations. And do not call me out for bashing them because I love what they have done to the optics market and their razor line is awesome but damn its the same story over and over at what point do we start to question Vortex...
 
#55
-Nick- said:
I love how there's someone on here trying to side against Vortex when that same person once wanted a Razor. Same person is also a S&B and Kahles dealer now. Maybe that person should stop bad mouthing a product purely based upon their want to sell another product before they get called out on it...
Click to expand...

I am not knocking the guy for buying what he wants/can afford. That being said,their comes a time though that when you buy a product that mainly relies on its warranty that its going to be expected... that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Not all of us love a company enough to undercut them by selling their product at 40% off, Nick :)
 
#58
BGE541 said:
I am not knocking the guy for buying what he wants/can afford. That being said,their comes a time though that when you buy a product that mainly relies on its warranty that its going to be expected... that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Not all of us love a company enough to undercut them by selling their product at 40% off, Nick :)
Click to expand...

Lol... And USO, Nightforce, S&B, etc don't rely on their warranties at all right? I guess the 2 USO's I broke were only relying on their good looks. Fact is everything brakes at one point or another and the ratio of >$2K to <$1k scopes sold is exponential therefor it's more likely that people would experience a product issue in one than another.

And I sold them at my cost to people I wanted to help out since I didn't look to make a profit off people I know. It's called doing the right thing ;)
 
#59
-Nick- said:
Lol... And USO, Nightforce, S&B, etc don't rely on their warranties at all right? I guess the 2 USO's I broke were only relying on their good looks. Fact is everything brakes at one point or another and the ratio of >$2K to <$1k scopes sold is exponential therefor it's more likely that people would experience a product issue in one than another.

And I sold them at my cost to people I wanted to help out since I didn't look to make a profit off people I know. It's called doing the right thing ;)
Click to expand...

First USO isn't even in the same league as NF or S&B as far as reliability. Every one I had except a MST100 had to go back and one of the. Was several times. Turn around was also incredibly slow 3-4+ months each time.

A NF crapping out is few and far between, I've never been able to make on fail and I've personally never seen any others fail. There have been a few failures reported here over the years and they are rare. They have a excellent warranty for when it's needed.

With only a 2 year warranty I wouldn't say S&B relies on the warranty either.
 
#60
redneckbmxer24 said:
First USO isn't even in the same league as NF or S&B as far as reliability. Every one I had except a MST100 had to go back and one of the. Was several times. Turn around was also incredibly slow 3-4+ months each time.

A NF crapping out is few and far between, I've never been able to make on fail and I've personally never seen any others fail. There have been a few failures reported here over the years and they are rare. They have a excellent warranty for when it's needed.

With only a 2 year warranty I wouldn't say S&B relies on the warranty either.
Click to expand...

The USO is in regards to the person being commented back at.

I've never personally seen a NF broken/fail either, but going on the accounts of well respected others here it happens. Unlike others though I don't think a product is crap just because it breaks. I realize things break from hard use and it's about how it's handled afterwards. As for S&B you and I both know that's only a recent development since they used to have lifetime warranties and those break as well but with less frequency, but they're also 3-4x more than Vortex and it's like comparing apples to oranges unless you reference Razor lines which no one ever does just the PST. And why exactly does everyone want to compare Vortex PST's to NF? Maybe because no one wants to pay the price but they all place the same expectations and when they're not met it's somehow now a crappy product? My main point is when you're comparing scopes sold in the range of tens thousands a year to those that sell in the thousands unless you know the ratio of broken to the ratio of sold you can't tell which breaks more. Ie if 500 scopes break out of 10,000 sold vs 60 scopes out of 1,000 sold who are you more likely to hear about and who actually breaks more? And IMO no one bitches online about their service issued glass breaking because they didn't purchase it and their priorities are elsewhere.
 
#61
orkan said:
... at the point when a competitor comes out with a better scope with the same or more features, at an equal or lesser price point.
Click to expand...

You mean like the bushnell tactical, with everything except the crappy little plastic shims.
I'll take the better glass, better tracking, made in Japan over the plastic shims anyday.
 
#62
orkan said:
... at the point when a competitor comes out with a better scope with the same or more features, at an equal or lesser price point.
Click to expand...

who cares if it has all the bells and whistles if it spends more time in the shop than on the rifle. Great the have awesome CS but at the end of the day I do not want to talk to CS I want my products to work. How many do you need to get fucked then told sorry before you get fed up.
 
#63
HKpirate said:
who cares if it has all the bells and whistles if it spends more time in the shop than on the rifle. Great the have awesome CS but at the end of the day I do not want to talk to CS I want my products to work. How many do you need to get fucked then told sorry before you get fed up.
Click to expand...
"
Hmmm I gave my experience with USO which above is basically how I feel about them but their scopes cost 2-2.5x as much as a PST and I was told I was "talking smack" by their fanboys. Is there different set of rules for different companies? Redneck you better watch out or the USO smack police will find you too. LOL

Oh and Deepeastkilla, I think people just would like a report on the new scope with the same veracity in which you jumped on here and talked down the other scope. Just to keep it fair for all involved both you and Vortex. You have a right to get pissed when something happens like that but you should also give the full story when you receive the replacement.
 
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#64
fdkay said:
You mean like the bushnell tactical, with everything except the crappy little plastic shims.
I'll take the better glass, better tracking, made in Japan over the plastic shims anyday.
Click to expand...

3 things...

1) they're not plastic which leads me to wonder if you've ever actually used one since anyone who has knows this...
2) You still think because of where something is made it determines product quality?
3) I like the Bushnell elite tactical lines... Nice scopes. But, short of those the scope lines below them can't hold a candle to Vortex, Nikon, or Refield.
 
#65
HKpirate said:
who cares if it has all the bells and whistles if it spends more time in the shop than on the rifle. Great the have awesome CS but at the end of the day I do not want to talk to CS I want my products to work. How many do you need to get fucked then told sorry before you get fed up.
Click to expand...

Lol... Anyone that actually uses their equipment from a position other than prone or on a bench knows that shit just breaks. It's a fact of life. If you think you'll never need CS then you're living in a pipe dream or you just don't use your equipment hard.
 
#67
fdkay said:
You mean like the bushnell tactical, with everything except the crappy little plastic shims.
I'll take the better glass, better tracking, made in Japan over the plastic shims anyday.
Click to expand...
It's clear you've got some pretty strong feelings on the subject. Others may feel the same way. Lets get specific for a minute. Which model bushnell scope are you referring to? I'll assume it is the models that were once called the "elite 4200."

Also, which plastic shims are you referring to? Is it the shims used for zero stop adjustment? If so, are you aware that those are not plastic? I'm not aware of any other shims used in Vortex scopes. Have you ever owned a Vortex PST?

A zero stop may not be important to you, but a scope that does not have one is a non-starter for me. Most of my customers feel the same way. The statement of the bushnell having better glass can't be intelligently debated, as neither scope will prohibit you from identifying and engaging targets, and the "likability" of the glass is purely preferential and subjective to each user. I've heard it go both ways, many different times.

What about illumination? Is that a factor? What about the turrets themselves? The clicks on new Vortex PST's are worlds beyond what is available on the Bushnell elite models. I would know, I have four bushnell's. Two 3-12's, and two 6-24's. They occupy space on various rimfires, and are excellent at that job. I require a 25yd minimum parallax on my rimfires, and the vortex scopes in higher magnifications do not allow this.

HKPirate, I can see you have strong feelings on the subject as well. Though if you are thinking Bushnell's are more reliable, you may want to make sure you're correct before solidifying that position. It doesn't track with what I've seen, or what other dealers I've talked with have seen. Conversely, we've sold quite a few PST's in the last couple years, and we've only had one customer report an issue, which was a spec on the reticle. The rest are quite happy. We sell bushnell as well, but we still haven't been able to find a model from anyone in this price range that can compete with vortex on all fronts. If we start to see a lot of failures, or if a competitor shows up with an equal or better product at an equal or better price point, we'll be excited to give it a try. From where I'm sitting, Vortex has the market on sub-$1000 ffp rifle scopes cornered. Though times are changing quickly. If the new Steiner is as good as we're all hoping, it might be hard for me to suggest someone buy a PST rather than just save a few more clams for a better scope.
 
#68
well I can clearly tell this is a sensitive topic.... I want to see vortex do well I actually suggest to all my friends to buy them ! My only comment is there seems to be a lot of issues that get brought up on here regularly. I would not hesitate to ever buy a vortex scope I am actually in the market for one as we speak what I am saying is there seems to be a lot of threads where there are issues. I can not argue that for less than 1g they are awesome scopes and what you get is clearly above what others have to offer. I guess this also ruins my argument since FFP and illumination are not a must for me, yet the Razor line and what that has done is awesome for the industry. Maybe its to much to ask for a rock solid $1,000 scope with ffp awesome turrets that can take a beating and show minimal failures.
 
#69
orkan said:
Though if you are thinking Bushnell's are more reliable, you may want to make sure you're correct before solidifying that position.
Click to expand...


I've beat the piss out of several Bushnell tacticals and they have never failed. They always track true and hold their POA. The glass is also excellent on them.

On the other end of the spectrum every single vortex product I've ever had has gone back at least once. Every one broke at least once. I like to use my shit and dealing with excellent customer service when I want to shoot is not an option. It's a rarity that a week goes by without at least one "my PST shit the bed" thread. There are a lot of documented failures. I can't remember the last time I saw a Bushnell elite thread about them crapping out. I know they have but it's few and far between and there are a shit load of Bushnell elites out there. Lots of military units using them too, only vortex I've ever seen or heard of in service is a couple razors.

I'd like to see you tell somebody with a straight face that a PST is even remotely close to a Japanese Bushnell elite as far as reliability. They aren't. If you can't see the track record of phillipino scopes having high failure rates then you're blind.
 
#71
HKpirate said:
well I can clearly tell this is a sensitive topic.... I want to see vortex do well I actually suggest to all my friends to buy them ! My only comment is there seems to be a lot of issues that get brought up on here regularly.
Click to expand...

That's because they aren't as tough as nightforce yet people try to use them like nightforce. Plus the internet is world wide, if it weren't for that you'd never hear these stories excepting the second hand gibberish at your local gun store.
 
#72
redneckbmxer24 said:
I've beat the piss out of several Bushnell tacticals and they have never failed. They always track true and hold their POA. The glass is also excellent on them.
Click to expand...

My father bought 3 3-12s when they were blowing them out they are all on big bore weatherbys none of them have gone tits up. They're not perfect by any means and the green turret lettering was a dumb fuck decision on bushnell's part but they are solid.
 
#73
Rob01 said:
"
Hmmm I gave my experience with USO which above is basically how I feel about them but their scopes cost 2-2.5x as much as a PST and I was told I was "talking smack" by their fanboys. Is there different set of rules for different companies? Redneck you better watch out or the USO smack police will find you too. LOL

Oh and Deepeastkilla, I think people just would like a report on the new scope with the same veracity in which you jumped on here and talked down the other scope. Just to keep it fair for all involved both you and Vortex. You have a right to get pissed when something happens like that but you should also give the full story when you receive the replacement.
Click to expand...

How do I respond with such great "veracity"?
If I say I'm happy with the outcome I get railed by vortex haters because "Now that they gave you a new one and a reach around you're happy again. Until you get off the bench you'll probably remain tickled pink by their warranty because that's all you have with it."
If I say I wont be looking at getting another PST I get reamed by the vortex fanboys crying that I got everything I could have asked for and I'm just another SOB who wants to get everything for a $5k scope and not pay for it.

The moral of the story is, you cant please everyone - so F#$@ it all.
 
#74
Veracity was a strong word. Maybe vigor? Came in unhappy and telling the story but people just wanted the full story.

No you can't please everyone but the question is now that the transaction is done are you happy with how it turned out and what you got? This is your post so that's what matters.
 
#75
Would I rather have not dealt with the issue to begin with? Yes.
Was I a bit peeved that it happened twice? You bet.
Am I "happy" with the outcome. Yes sir.
Would I spend $1k on a PST again had I known then what I do now? Debatable.

I acknowledge that ANYTHING can fail no matter how expensive. I do feel, however that the failure rate of these optics seems to be a bit higher than can be chalked up to the "more people buying, more people breaking" thing. I don't really think that for $1,000.00 its out of the question to think they could make a scope that wouldn't need to be "warrantied". Yes there are USO's, S&B's, Nightforce and so on out there costing 5 times as much, but does that mean a thousand dollar piece of glass should be treated like a toy? Again, to those who talk about "buying a $1000 scope and thinking it will be as bomb-proof as a nightforce", no, but this scope was babied. I have abused other guns/optics in the past and this was not one of them, as I said the worst that ever happened to it was being fired from a mild recoiling .308 - So yea I DID expect it to hold up to those conditions.

- note, I realize the statements where more likely a general statement rather than a direct comment to my situation. That's not stopping me from bitching though!
 
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#76
Well how do you think I felt when 4 out of my 5 USO scopes had to go back because they didn't track? My first, an ST-10, came with the wrong reticle. But when I give my experiences I get accused of "talking smack". So I don't think you are saying anything bad except your experience but just don't get upset when people ask for the end of it as well. That was my point. People want to hear everything. Well some do ;)
 
#77
Just got off the phone with a nice lady from Vortex and was basically told sorry for sending you a shitty product. I can send the scope in for "evaluation" again if I want. Very disheartening considering I own quite a few of their scopes and had plans to pick up three more in various lines. Really aggravates me that they know theres a difference in the rubber and metal magnification ring scopes yet they wont do anything about their crappy QC. Ill shoot an email to the customer service line, Jimmy has always been helpful and thorough. If this is truly their business model I will send it in to get swapped out and Ill sell it and that will be the last vortex I buy. Its pretty damn sad when a 20x SWFA with a 42mm objective that costs a third of what the vortex does with a 50mm objective is much clearer. Other features be damned, if I cant see WTF Im shooting the rest means nothing. Definitely becoming disenchanted with this company quickly.
 
#80
DeepEastKilla said:
hmmm. Makes me wonder about mine. I was not blown out of the water by the clarity/brightness of either the first scope or this replacement. I've never looked through multi-$K glass so I dont know where to compare mine.
Click to expand...

The 6-24x PST has better than average glass but its not amazing. IMO the PST line is about balance, they offer a nice set of features, great turrets, reasonable glass, and at a fair/competitive price. Its more than adequate for getting the job done, but once you move into the multi-k glass its very easy to spot the differences.

For not too much more the SWFA 5-20 glass is a noteworthy improvement over the PST line but you do sacrifice some features... I can live without the half assed zero stop and illumination and opt for the SWFA 5-20x. Personally I think the trade off and price increase is worth it, especially at their sale price.

I have a few PST scopes, but the only Vortex products ill be buying moving forward will be the Razor line. That's enough scope for me without having to drop S&B type of coin.
 
#81
I would have asked Vortex to fix the original as shown below. Then you'd have TWO reticles in case one failed ;).

Slide1_zps0fde72b3.jpg



Well, at least you seem to have gotten it fixed...could have been worse.
 
#82
^LOL

Like a lot of people, I am not made of money. That being said...If you're going to drop $1000 on a scope, I would rather wait 3 more months and drop $1600 on a Nightforce instead. Warranty isn't worth a shit on lower end scopes if you are standing around pulling dick because your scope broke again. But at least they fix them for free...right?
 
#85
orkan said:
I could certainly tell there was a difference when the new metal-ring scopes showed up. Are you saying they know the new ones are better, or worse?
Click to expand...
Conjecture on my part as so many people complain about glass on the rubber ring scopes and the newer production scopes seems to get better reviews. This has been my experience as all the metal ring scopes Ive looked through have been adequate IMO.

After I made that post earlier I was a little riled up so I sent Jimmy an email about my experiences and thoughts. To my surprise a couple hours later I received a phone call from him. In the days of anonymous email driven world a phone call from him was a pleasant surprise. He spent half an hour on the phone with me going over every point I made in my email and thoroughly explaining everything to me. The effort he put into the conversation was much appreciate and I felt like he truly cared about what I had to say and making me happy.

Ill try and disseminate what he told me as best I can and from what I remember so take it for what its worth.

Metal Mag Ring- purely a durability upgrade over the rubber mag ring. He said no internal changes were done when the ring change was made.

4-16 Glass Issues- he explained it to me in a much more scientific way but in my terms essentially the 4-16s taper from the body to the bell of the objective is much more abrupt than the 6-24 and 2.5-10x32. Basically the light has to make a sharper transition in the 4-16 than it does in the 2.5-10x32 and 6-24s I have experience in, so by design its at a disadvantage. Makes sense and mimics what Ive seen.

Glass Variation Between Lines PSTs- He says the glass in all PSTs is the same, the difference in perceived image is different due to differences in tube design and natural variation in a given mass produced product.

Ring TQ Damage- He said basically if they cant reproduce the same problems in the facility as the customer is complaining about they general chalk it up to a ring tq issue as that's 90% of the problems they see with their scopes. That the owner has over tightened the rings and it causes parallax issues if the front ring is too tight and magnification issues if the rear ring is too tight. He did not make an excuse for the Viper PA I sent back and said that was wrong.

In the end after a fairly lengthy conversation with him we came to an agreement that makes me happy, he spent the time to thoroughly explain every question I had and I feel he was telling me the truth. He seems like a great guy and feel he truly is out to make his customers happy. Overall Id say Im satisfied with the outcome in my particular case and will be getting a scope more to my liking. If that scope turns out to be a performer for what it is I will continue to buy their products.
 
#86
redneckbmxer24 said:
I'd like to see you tell somebody with a straight face that a PST is even remotely close to a Japanese Bushnell elite as far as reliability. They aren't. If you can't see the track record of phillipino scopes having high failure rates then you're blind.
Click to expand...

redneckbmxer24, I respect your opinion and you are correct in the fact that we don't want our gear (any of it) to take a dump in the middle of a big comp and certainly in the middle of real life situations. The NEW Bushnell stuff is very nice but also, for the most part, way more expensive than PST.
Bushnell certainly did not get there over night. I have been around a while and I can remember all the Bushnell stuff being in a horse race for worst optic durability with the likes of Tasco and Simmons. And they didn't have the CS that Vortex is providing. It has taken me a long time to even be able to say Bushnell and good in the same sentence, much less paragraph. Give Vortex time and they will grow. No one answered my question from earlier. Just how much would you pay for a PST that held up like a NF?
 
#87
shoot4fun said:
redneckbmxer24, I respect your opinion and you are correct in the fact that we don't want our gear (any of it) to take a dump in the middle of a big comp and certainly in the middle of real life situations. The NEW Bushnell stuff is very nice but also, for the most part, way more expensive than PST.
Bushnell certainly did not get there over night. I have been around a while and I can remember all the Bushnell stuff being in a horse race for worst optic durability with the likes of Tasco and Simmons. And they didn't have the CS that Vortex is providing. It has taken me a long time to even be able to say Bushnell and good in the same sentence, much less paragraph. Give Vortex time and they will grow. No one answered my question from earlier. Just how much would you pay for a PST that held up like a NF?
Click to expand...

The elite series of scope have been excellent products since day one, good quality and reliability. Yes their lower end optics blow and they still continue to make that trash but vortex also puts out some super low end lines of Chinese made crap. I had a couple crossfire a and I've gotta say I'll take a Bushnell banner over one any day.

Bushnell has had the elite tactical 3-12 and 6-24 with mil adjustments out longer than the PST's have been out. Had vortex not delayed shipment for a year plus they would have been out about the same time. The vortex rolled out with better reticle a though as Bushnell was initially only doing standard mildot. The new reticle they've been doing for the last few years are great though and I prefer them to the vortex offerings as well.

As for price both the 3-12 and 6-24 are in the same price range as the PST, it's identical almost. The ERS and XRS is in the same price range as the razor 5-20 for retail and street price. The HDMR is smack in the middle of them and their have been deals from vendors lately for $1000-1100 which put them basically in the price range of the PST. So price in the same on the 3-12 and 6-24 for comparable PST's and the bushnell is a better product hands down. I suppose the razor vs ERS is debatable but I already know which of those Id buy too.
 
#88
Sorry, but you missed my point. I was making reference to longevity in the industry, not when particular models were introduced. Bushnell had years of crap before they realized they needed to get better. The Elite Tactical line was not that good in its infancy. IIRC, there were lots of issues with illumination and distortion.
My sole point is that not even my beloved Nightforce was perfect when they first came on the scene. Not saying they are now either (none is) but they have made improvements by leaps and bounds.
I've had multiple opportunity to use various models of Vortex on paper, steel and live (varmint) targets and I will agree they have some low end models have been proven out to be low performers. But, to my point, even those have shown some improvement with time. I will continue to support Vortex as long as they continue to support their product in the manner they have thus far. It is how I have been with NF and I like the way that worked out.
 
#89
Ghogs Nightmare said:
So any further "review" of how "horrible" Vortex is? Not many companies would give you a brand new product instead of fixing one that had an issue.
.
I've owned several Vortex products over the years some I liked some I didn't, companies at times have issues with their products and its rare to find a company with as good of customer service as Vortex seems to have over the years.
.
So any chance you've taken the time to go to the range and try out the brand new scope they sent you so you can finish out the "public documentation of this situation". Seems to me it would only be fair to give Vortex a chance since they most certainly handled the situation quite well (at least in my opinion) which is quite rare now a days considering how most companies treat customers now a days.
Click to expand...

I never read in any of OP's posts where he stated Vortex was "horrible." I could've missed it, but maybe you can help. I will be the first to say that I think Vortex is a great company with THE BEST customer service. There will probably never be another company in this galaxy with as good of customer service. Furthermore, Vortex offers THE BEST optics and features, dollar-for-dollar, when compared to their competitors. I, personally, have experienced several failures of their optics. Unfortunately, I lost faith in their products' reliability and ruggedness due to said issues, which is damn tragic.

Since I have had so many problems with them, I vowed to never buy another Vortex product again. To be quite honest, I find it extremely difficult at times to adhere to my vow, because of the value and CS provided by Vortex.
 
#91
FALex said:
I never read in any of OP's posts where he stated Vortex was "horrible." I could've missed it, but maybe you can help. I will be the first to say that I think Vortex is a great company with THE BEST customer service. There will probably never be another company in this galaxy with as good of customer service. Furthermore, Vortex offers THE BEST optics and features, dollar-for-dollar, when compared to their competitors. I, personally, have experienced several failures of their optics. Unfortunately, I lost faith in their products' reliability and ruggedness due to said issues, which is damn tragic.

Since I have had so many problems with them, I vowed to never buy another Vortex product again. To be quite honest, I find it extremely difficult at times to adhere to my vow, because of the value and CS provided by Vortex.
Click to expand...


I just want to say thanks for the post. I was nodding frantically with approval while reading the whole thing.
 
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