Rifle Scopes Voertex Optics Never Ever Again!!!

F

FULLDRAW

Private
Minuteman
Dec 6, 2013
13
0
Texas
#1
This is my first time writing anything in this fourm. I have passed through looking for information on several things reguarding rifles, scopes, mounts etc. Here in the past year I found myself with a Vortex Viper 6-24-50 PST-SFP, looked nice, felt nice and for the most part worked nice. As I started to use the scope in the field and by field I mean tagret shooting and varmint hunting, the scope slowly started to loose its zero. The problem got worse and everytime I took the rifle for a run I would have to do about 12 MOA of corrections up, down, left , right.
The scope was mounted on a CMMG AR-10 with an American Defense QD mount. Quickly I chalked this problem up to the QD mount and had it put back on the AR as if it would be permanent. No dice, still would not hold zero and when I would get the scope back to zero it would give me a wild pitch about every 3-5 shots. At this point and time I sent the scope back to Vortex for a look over. I get the scope back in the mail with a letter saying that the paralax had to be reset and that was causing the problem I was having. Also in the latter they gave me some torque spects for the scope rings. I take my scope and gun to my local gun shop and have them install the scope and mount to the specs that Vortex reccommended. Great i'm back in action...........NOPE! Shortly after I started using the scope again I started having the same problems. I again send the scope back to Vortex with a letter stating that I am having the same problems as the last time. The scope returns with a letter stating that they couldnt duplicate any problems I have been having but the scope seemed to be dented by the scope rings. Their scope tech told me that they reccommend that I use horizontal mounting rings instead of the vertical mounting rings I had on there. I asked him/her why they reccommend a different style product for the scope then they sell. His/her response was (I dunno, doesnt make sense). At this point I have purched a new rifle (Rem. 700 VLS 22-250) that I want to try this scope out on to make sure it hasn't been the rifle. I take my rifle and my scope to a more well know gun smith in the area, he installs the scope to the new rifle with Night Force (horizontal mounting) rings and a Weaver base. After some adjustments to make the scope fit me better and a quick bore sight I am off to the range. First shot takes out the bullseye at 100 yds and then starts to wander a bit due to natural reasons of a new rifle. At this point I take it back a bit to the 200 yd mark, four shots under a half inch apart. Good deal i was thinking....NOPE! As soon as i made my first adjustment we went right back to square one. This is where the fun starts with Vortex. I contact them with the same problem and I am back in touch with the scope tech, he/she then begins to tell me to lower the torque on the rear ring below the minimal torque specs and if that fixes my problem then I am good to go. I ask him/her if my scope will stay accurate out of torque spec and the response was (well it should). I asked what will they do if that doesnt fix my problem and could I just pay the extra bucks to upgrade to the Razor. I was then told that the upgrade was possible but he would have to talk to the boss. To make a already long story short I had that done to my scope and it didnt work. Called Vortex back and I was sent to customer service never to speak with the scope tech I originally spoke with. I was then told that they would give me the upgrade. GREAT!!! but there is a catch. You will be upgraded to the same scope but in first focal plane instead of your second focal plane. I then told them that I would like to have the same exact scope that I have now. I was given three options, take your money back, get the FFP scope or take this other scope that is just like yours but it has scratches and stuff on it. Why cant I get the same NEW scope like mine I asked, (sir we are back ordered and when we build the scopes we ship them out right away). I then explaned how I have burnt up at least $300 in ammo, $200 in rings/mounts and another $100 in gunsmithing fees, not to mention the shipping I paid for both times I had to send it back. Vortex simply told me they were sorry and presented me with the same three options and that they would take care of the shipping this time. The last time I ever use these guys again, i'ts a shame because I have heard nothing but good things about their customer service. If they would have just sent me a new scope when their first one was defective then we wouldnt be in the situation we are in now( most likely).
 
#2
They offered you your money back (essentially the same as giving you a new scope since they couldn't because they were backordered, i.e. people were in-line in front of you) or a scope with a focal plane most consider better. I fail to see where they went wrong.
 
#3
I am sorry for your bad experience and I think you should move up to nightforce and be done with the whole ordeal. BUT that is some of the best customer service I have heard of. I would imagine leupold may not be so eager to give out a full refund/different scope.
 
#4
I needed the product not the money and if they would have just dealt with the problem a little better the first time I sent it in, we wouldnt be at this point. I actually like their product and unlike most was willing to give them another chance instead of asking for my money back from the get go.
 
#5
I don't know that I would come onto a site and with my first post bash an optics manufacturer, but to each his own.

I'm sure that every manufacturer out there occasionally has a faulty product get through quality control. It appears to me that they attempted to make it right, and give you your money back or replace with a ffp that's worth a couple hundred more than your scope. Vortex explained that a new replacement for your current model was NOT available. I know their customer service is excellent from numerous posts here on the hide, sorry your experience was different. Do a search on vortex customer service, and you'll see LOTS of folks are happy with their scopes. BTW Welcome to the Hide.
 
#6
Sucks to hear this but at east their CS was willing to make you happy. I agree that getting the same scope would have been ideal but I would have just taken my money elsewhere after the second time it failed. I have to say this though, please learn to mount a scope. It's easy and it saves you time and money.
 
#12
I wasn't meaning to bash anyone and thats why I wrote down everything I did as well so that if someone of more knowledge on here read this they may have seen something I did wrong. I wrote pretty much word for word how everything went and I just wasnt happy. I am mostly upset due to the principle. Where I live you cant just go out and get another scope like that of the same quality and preformace which is why I didnt take the money. I went the FFP and will make a trade in a few days for a NF, also i would have waited for the same scope to come in but the wait is 3-4 months and i have had this same scope that doesnt work for a year. Oh and i went with the Night Force ring
 
#15
To bad you couldn't be satisfied but I don't know of another optics company could have done better. From what I have heard they really try hard in the customer service department. I had a few dealings with nickon and once I was off hold for 30 minutes they made it right but when I call Vortex I can get right through... They make a bunch of scopes and I'm sure once in awhile a bad egg will get through quality control. I hope you get the scope that suits your needs. The optics business is getting more and more competitive each year.

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk
 
#17
I had a cheap vortex midway special. I dropped it off the shooting tower and it dented the shit out of it. I was in the middle of teaching a class and got complacent with my rifle kicked it off the tower with my leg while helping a young officer with his form. All of this was my fault! I called vortex because the midway scope was out of stock and I wanted to replace it. They told me they would not be making anymore but to send it in. I explained over and over it was my fault. She sill insisted I send it in. This thing was not fixable it fell right on the elevation knob. I sent it in and they said they would replace it with something simmar. I could not believe it. This was just a cheap loaner rifle scope. Hell it was not even 400 dollars. That is awesome of any company. In the end it got lost in the mail.... Go figure god must have thought it was my fault as well;) but the fact that they would do that anyway was awsome. I just orderd a pst a couple days ago because of the way they tryed to help me. I never thought a cheap scope would lead to me buying a thousand dollar scope. Hopefully this one does not get lost in the mail.

Sorry for the spelling and grammar I'm on my phone.
 
#18
You're seriously bitching because you couldn't get what you want the second you demanded it and when the manufacturer offered you a full refund or a more expensive scope you still can't be appeased... You wouldn't have been appeased even if they had given you exactly what you wanted. What you really wanted was them to give you a free scope and pay you on top of that for your troubles. Go see if NF, S&B, USO, or and other retailer will do that and let us know how it works out for you.
 
#19
FULLDRAW said:
I then explaned how I have burnt up at least $300 in ammo, $200 in rings/mounts and another $100 in gunsmithing fees, not to mention the shipping I paid for both times I had to send it back.
Click to expand...

And before you come back with some bullshit excuse that you didn't want to get paid it's right there quoted and obvious what you wanted. I'm not even going to ask how you think they owe you for "gunsmithing fees" or the cost of your mount.
 
#21
I'm currently in the market for another scope. My two primary candidates are Vortex and Nightforce. Recently there have been a series of "my Vortex broke but they fixed it" threads. Warranty is great and I think the Vortex is a sold product. I currently have a regular Viper on my .17, but I'm really starting to consider saving for a while longer and avoiding this issue.

Stories like, "My rifle fell scope first off my tailgate and my NF didn't even shift zero" are pretty compelling.

My time is worth something and every time I lose a day shooting it's like taking money out of my pocket. I'm not particularly hard on my gear. Truth be told most of my guns are safe queens, but the last thing I want to deal with is equipment failure.

Maybe it's an excuse for me to rationalize another NF (probably). Maybe it's due to the volume of people shooting the PST. Vortex offers quite a bang for the buck with their optics.

The question becomes, is a few hundred more dollars worth essentially eliminating the possibility of equipment failure (or drastically reducing it)?

Maybe this is just a case of no news is good news, and bad news travels fast. I'm sure there are plenty of Vortex customers out there that are 100% satisfied.
 
#22
_Broke_ said:
You're seriously bitching because you couldn't get what you want the second you demanded it and when the manufacturer offered you a full refund or a more expensive scope you still can't be appeased... You wouldn't have been appeased even if they had given you exactly what you wanted. What you really wanted was them to give you a free scope and pay you on top of that for your troubles. Go see if NF, S&B, USO, or and other retailer will do that and let us know how it works out for you.
Click to expand...

Enough said...............
 
#23
_Broke_ said:
And before you come back with some bullshit excuse that you didn't want to get paid it's right there quoted and obvious what you wanted. I'm not even going to ask how you think they owe you for "gunsmithing fees" or the cost of your mount.
Click to expand...

I like your style I really do lol but in this my friend you are wrong. I have no interest in getting paid for something I didn't earn. I explained those facts to vortex in order to explain that I am done investing money in this scope that doesn't work. If you would have actually tried to comprehend what I wrote instead of wasting your time on this worthless attempt of something smartass and clever, you would understand that I went a whole lot farther than most would have timely and financially. Did I go a bit overboard on this, probably but now I'm in a pinch because vortex wouldn't nip the problem when it started. They did all they could do for me and I understand this, me personally wasn't satisfied. They are in a pinch just like me, obviously they make make a great scope or they wouldn't be on back order. I don't want their money or your missjudgements of the type of person I am.
 
#25
I have a HST and I love it. I've only had it about 3 months but it's great, especially for the money. The warranty is a really great benefit. Should anything ever happen to it I feel comfortable they'll make it right.
 
#27
Magstang1 said:
Stories like, "My rifle fell scope first off my tailgate and my NF didn't even shift zero" are pretty compelling.

My time is worth something and every time I lose a day shooting it's like taking money out of my pocket. I'm not particularly hard on my gear.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't purposely trash my stuff but I'm clumsy and shit happens. I've had 15-20 NF scopes and ran thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds under them and never had a failure. I did break a part of one once, I broke the rheostat on the first one I had because I was a dumbass and turned it too far. Scope still worked perfectly, NF replaced the rheostat free of charge.

I've had a bunch of accidents and falls and never has even my zero shifted let alone something broke. Two of these falls were very memorable, both were with F1's. The first was with my first F1, the original model and one of the first production units to hit the street. We were shooting at 900ish yards on some very rocky ground. I was shooting off a boulder with a hard angle, took my hands off the rifle. It flopped over on the side with the parallax knob, slid down the rock two feet before falling off the edge and landed on more rocks about 4 feet down. The objective and elevation knob took most of the impact. After it was over the parra lax and elevation knobs were marred to shit and the edge of the objective was dented. I went back to banging steel with the same elevation dialed and holding the same wind, nothing shifted. The most recent was with a newer F1 on the first stage of a match where we had to shoot off a massive stump that had been uprooted. I was fumbling for a mag and knocked the rifle off the stump, it bounced off the roots on the way down hitting the windage and elevation knob, fell off the root ball landing about 18-24" down in dirt and small rocks. Once again nothing shifted and I took second place.

I've had spills with other scopes and seen spills with other scopes that kept running as well but the shit I've had happen with nightforce scopes and they keep running gives me confidence in my equipment. If they aren't the most reliable they're certainly #2. There's one on there site with a fucking bullet hole in it that still holds zero and tracks... It saved the guys life and he finished his mission.
 
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#29
I have put it on two different guns with two different mounts. Scope tech thinks the barrel of the scope is pinching one of the reticle lifters which is giving me sparatic adjustments.
 
#30
Fulldraw,

I'm not part of the "gang up on the new guy" crowd, but there is one critically serious flaw in your story.


Originally Posted by FULLDRAW
I then explaned how I have burnt up at least $300 in ammo, $200 in rings/mounts and another $100 in gunsmithing fees, not to mention the shipping I paid for both times I had to send it back.

I have returned optics to Vortex, I am well aware of their policies. THEY send YOU a shipping label. Every time.
Either you are exaggerating for dramatic effect, or you poorly communicated with their customer service department.

If any of the remaining story is true, I feel you pain. It sucks to spend good money on a product that doesn't live up to expectations.
Hopefully you will learn from this experience as a consumer, and be more efficient and savvy should you ever experience equipment malfunction.
Remember, the second time you have to send a scope in, it's either replaced with new or refunded. It saves you time, energy and money. It also disuades brand new members to one of the largest read firearms forum in the world from bad-mouthing a company that supports our shooting community to an elite level.
 
#31
You will figure it out. Don't quit!

FULLDRAW said:
I like your style I really do lol but in this my friend you are wrong. I have no interest in getting paid for something I didn't earn. I explained those facts to vortex in order to explain that I am done investing money in this scope that doesn't work. If you would have actually tried to comprehend what I wrote instead of wasting your time on this worthless attempt of something smartass and clever, you would understand that I went a whole lot farther than most would have timely and financially. Did I go a bit overboard on this, probably but now I'm in a pinch because vortex wouldn't nip the problem when it started. They did all they could do for me and I understand this, me personally wasn't satisfied. They are in a pinch just like me, obviously they make make a great scope or they wouldn't be on back order. I don't want their money or your missjudgements of the type of person I am.
Click to expand...

I think we all understand "the type of person" you are and why it took about a year to solve this scope riddle. Thank you for sharing so much about yourself.

The next time this happens, solve your problem on your own and faster. Vortex will fix or replace without fault. It is beyond ironic that you are trying to place blame on Vortex. Accept this fact. You are responsible for not solving this problem sooner. If a scope doesn't hold zero then replace it with a better scope or accept your warranty options. If you can't figure that out then stop shooting with a scope.

Please stop making excuses for your lack of intelligence and/or experience. We all have to learn the same lessons. For some it takes a year, a gunsmith and several hundred dollars of ammo but for others it will only take an hour at the range. This is how evolution works.
 
#33
I am not one to voice my opinion on complaints very often but in this case I feel I need to, First Vortex offered a MORE EXPENSIVE and FFP scope which is far better than SFP, in that you do not need to account for POI shift if a person changes the magnification diffrent from the setting the scope was originnaly zerroed on. and second I had the same problem with my scope on a rifle that had a muzzle brake. I went through this with them and the warrenty, scope came back with could not duplicate problem. I duplicated the problem and sent scope with rings attached back, my problem was varrified as a ring failure. The rings were too pollished and allowed the scope to shift. My scope came back to me with a diffrent set of rings than I sent, and no I was not upset with the ring change, the vortex rings worked and was sturdy. About a month latter I bought another scope and I bought another set of rings and again I had a reaccuring POI shift and zerroing issue. With those rings my problem was the 30mm rings did not fit the 30mm scope tube accuratly enough. My problem was solved by a shim. a flat piece of steel that is .010" placed between bottom ring and scope. Perhaps this could help you. Mabe the POI shift is in the rings or perhaps the shooter, as far as their service it sounded like they was very responsive and better than fair.
 
#34
cheapmoa said:
I think we all understand "the type of person" you are and why it took about a year to solve this scope riddle. Thank you for sharing so much about yourself.

The next time this happens, solve your problem on your own and faster. Vortex will fix or replace without fault. It is beyond ironic that you are trying to place blame on Vortex. Accept this fact. You are responsible for not solving this problem sooner. If a scope doesn't hold zero then replace it with a better scope or accept your warranty options. If you can't figure that out then stop shooting with a scope.

Please stop making excuses for your lack of intelligence and/or experience. We all have to learn the same lessons. For some it takes a year, a gunsmith and several hundred dollars of ammo but for others it will only take an hour at the range. This is how evolution works.
Click to expand...

First things first buddy, you have to be at home or wherever your scope is to find out it doesn't work again, secondly the reason I exhausted my time and ammo with the scope is for the very fact I didn't want to waste their time, efforts and money in something I may have been doing wrong. It's called covering all the angles and finding no other options. Sry I hurt your feelings partner
 
#36
still_N_29palms said:
I am not one to voice my opinion on complaints very often but in this case I feel I need to, First Vortex offered a MORE EXPENSIVE and FFP scope which is far better than SFP, in that you do not need to account for POI shift if a person changes the magnification diffrent from the setting the scope was originnaly zerroed on. and second I had the same problem with my scope on a rifle that had a muzzle brake. I went through this with them and the warrenty, scope came back with could not duplicate problem. I duplicated the problem and sent scope with rings attached back, my problem was varrified as a ring failure. The rings were too pollished and allowed the scope to shift. My scope came back to me with a diffrent set of rings than I sent, and no I was not upset with the ring change, the vortex rings worked and was sturdy. About a month latter I bought another scope and I bought another set of rings and again I had a reaccuring POI shift and zerroing issue. With those rings my problem was the 30mm rings did not fit the 30mm scope tube accuratly enough. My problem was solved by a shim. a flat piece of steel that is .010" placed between bottom ring and scope. Perhaps this could help you. Mabe the POI shift is in the rings or perhaps the shooter, as far as their service it sounded like they was very responsive and better than fair.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, if I have the same problem then I will try this for sure. I understand what everybody is saying about the FFP, yes it's more expensive and yes more people like it. I didn't want that scope or I would have got it the first time. I guess I should have huh. Lol. Thanks ft your positive input.
 
#38
FULLDRAW said:
First things first buddy, you have to be at home or wherever your scope is to find out it doesn't work again, secondly the reason I exhausted my time and ammo with the scope is for the very fact I didn't want to waste their time, efforts and money in something I may have been doing wrong. It's called covering all the angles and finding no other options. Sry I hurt your feelings partner
Click to expand...

By the way, I have done the exact same thing. I spent a lot of time and money trying to fix a bad zero scope problem. It sucks. The Vortex PST is a good scope but they do fail from time to time. I would try to climb the scope ladder one more level for reliability and glass. Vortex Razor, SWFA HD, Steiner and the others in $1k - $2k range all are highly reliable and have exceptional glass. Are you selling the PST FFP?
 
#39
cheapmoa said:
By the way, I have done the exact same thing. I spent a lot of time and money trying to fix a bad zero scope problem. It sucks. The Vortex PST is a good scope but they do fail from time to time. I would try to climb the scope ladder one more level for reliability and glass. Vortex Razor, SWFA HD, Steiner and the others in $1k - $2k range all are highly reliable and have exceptional glass. Are you selling the PST FFP?
Click to expand...

Yea it hasn't been fun at all, it would have went faster if I just would have put the scope on a gun that was too notch from the start. But yes most likely I will sell it, I had a man here at the local gun shop offer to trade a NF that's a 3-16x50, same reticle etc. if that falls through then yes I will. You want first dibs? Lol
 
#41
Vortex has the customer service to beat in the industry, and has for a while.

I would also recommend paragraphs, for every 3-4 sentences. The only reason I was able to make it through the OP is because I'm a speed reader, and even then, it was very difficult to keep track of the sentence arrangement and line transitions.

Try dealing with NF or S&B CS compared to Vortex. I guess no good deed goes unpunished nowadays.

OP: Can you explain what you would have them do, since none of the options they offered were good enough for you?

* Full refund-not good enough
* Upgrade to FFP Model-not good enough
* Take this other scope that is just like yours but it has scratches and stuff on it-not good enough

Maybe you would like a new Razor HD, $300 in ammo, $100 in gunsmithing fees, and a new custom rifle? How about a free cruise to help you wind down from the emotional trauma this has caused? When you return, maybe one year of spa visits with deluxe treatment?

What foot-pound torque spec did you use, BTW?
 
#42
It seems these "I'm done with XXX company" posts are becoming a trend on this site.
That should qualify you for being trendy at least.

Nice work. Not bad for your first post.

Maybe you can be a SH star in the future!
 
#43
redneckbmxer24 said:
This. Some people have better things to do (like shoot) than ship something back and forth and deal with 'excellent customer service'. The best customer service is a quality product that doesn't crap out.

OP I've been in your shoes and they'll never get another dime from me.
Click to expand...

I do understand this statement though i've never had a problem similar to this in shooting i have in computer parts. Customer service was good but it took six months to get a working GPU, of which left me with 400$ spent and a down computer. So i do get where your coming from that said i think it depends on the failure rate of the product. There are apparently a great deal of people with vortex scopes that are fine. Flip back to my situation with PC parts XFX was putting out shitty low quality PCB, running at incorrect clocks, and a horrible aftermarket cooler. It wasn't just me it was their entire line of products pretty much. I don't see that with vortex so while i can definitely relate and understand the frustration how they're handling it is top notch and i would assume they don't have that great of failure rate. Also not to step on toes but saying "step up to NF and be done" would suggest you should've been looking at the Razor to begin with not the PST, two entirely differently priced scopes.

As to the OP if they were out of SFP scopes to send off that seems to be the reason as to why they couldn't offer you one. Did you ask them if they could notify you when they got some in stock?
 
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#44
LRRPF52 said:
Vortex has the customer service to beat in the industry, and has for a while.

I would also recommend paragraphs, for every 3-4 sentences. The only reason I was able to make it through the OP is because I'm a speed reader, and even then, it was very difficult to keep track of the sentence arrangement and line transitions.

Try dealing with NF or S&B CS compared to Vortex. I guess no good deed goes unpunished nowadays.

OP: Can you explain what you would have them do, since none of the options they offered were good enough for you?

* Full refund-not good enough
* Upgrade to FFP Model-not good enough
* Take this other scope that is just like yours but it has scratches and stuff on it-not good enough

Maybe you would like a new Razor HD, $300 in ammo, $100 in gunsmithing fees, and a new custom rifle? How about a free cruise to help you wind down from the emotional trauma this has caused? When you return, maybe one year of spa visits with deluxe treatment?

What foot-pound torque spec did you use, BTW?
Click to expand...

Since it was hard for you to read and obviously you still haven't grasp the English language. What I wanted was the same scope, no money, no extra money, not a different scope. Just the same one. Hit me up if you want me to break that down some more for ya. By the way, I don't need that other stuff either, just the same scope.
 
#46
FULLDRAW said:
Since it was hard for you to read and obviously you still haven't grasp the English language. What I wanted was the same scope, no money, no extra money, not a different scope. Just the same one. Hit me up if you want me to break that down some more for ya. By the way, I don't need that other stuff either, just the same scope.
Click to expand...

There are anywhere from 33-39 lines in your single run-on blob of a post (depending on ad placement), which is difficult to read for even an advanced reader.

Many of us took the time to digest your situation and try to understand it, then provide insight.

I'm still wondering what torque spec was used initially with the scope.
 
#47
What Weaver rail was used? The Nightforce rings are designed for a Mil Std 1913 spec rail, not the weaver cross slot spec (although they do look similar). If the rail was not to Mil Std 1913 specs and was indeed a weaver cross slot, that could cause a wandering zero due to the rings not mounting properly to the rail.
 
#48
There is a reason home owners us vortex. Good optics for the most part, but any time you get a " any trouble we'll replace warranty be worried". While that is great bargin for your hard earned money. You'll never see operators who's lives depend on it using vortex, other than a photo op.. To get the you can bet your ASS warranty it costs alittle more than what most home owners want to pay. So while your bread is rising and you have time to play enjoy your vortex. If your getting deployed, yea get a night force, Shcmit Bender, USO or type scope and live to see your play box again. I had a scope with over the counter replacement it failed bad twice, and twice I got a new scope. Third time I said no thanks. Beware of what a great warranty says " we replace a lot of scopes!
 
#49
redneckbmxer24 said:
Deerhunter 28 said:
Just get a Nightforce and be done
Click to expand...

This. Some people have better things to do (like shoot) than ship something back and forth and deal with 'excellent customer service'. The best customer service is a quality product that doesn't crap out.

OP I've been in your shoes and they'll never get another dime from me.
Click to expand...

Might want to talk to my team mate who had his NF F1 crap out on him twice and when he sent it in they all but accused him of not knowing how to use the scope.

No scope is perfect. Not even NF.
 
#50
FULLDRAW said:
Since it was hard for you to read and obviously you still haven't grasp the English language. What I wanted was the same scope, no money, no extra money, not a different scope. Just the same one. Hit me up if you want me to break that down some more for ya. By the way, I don't need that other stuff either, just the same scope.
Click to expand...

Maybe they didn't have any of the same scope in stock and were just trying to help you get back shooting with the FFP or get you your money back so you could buy a different brand?
 
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