Rifle Scopes Voertex Optics Never Ever Again!!!

#154
1911fan said:
Dunno, but it seems to me like he asked you a specific question you haven't answered.



So, I'll try: Which famous companies do this?



1911fan
Click to expand...

I like how you decided to cite only part of my answer to his question. I'm still not going to list the optics companies for the same reason I stated earlier which means you'll have to actually read more of what was said rather than choosing to only hear/read certain parts. But I'm sure if you did a little research on your own you can figure it out without getting the topic farther off-track which of all people you should definitely know better. If you want examples of other companies in general try about almost every mobile phone company out there.
 
#158
fdkay said:
Whatever!
MOMAG Unit 9 (NAVMAG), 83-85 then again 86-90.

Went to T's a few times, but why pay 1.00 a beer when you could get the same beer for 30 cents. I crawled the back streets.
Click to expand...

Slim's was the place we spent most of our time. Went to T's some times but usually too crowded. I did live down the street from T's so sometimes it was a late night stop.
 
#163
customones said:
Two west pacs, 13th meu, desert shield/storm 90 and back again in 92. Slims was the bar we frequented as well.
Click to expand...

I got to 3/1 in July of 88 and I was back on West Pac in January of 89 and back to the PI LOL Was fun to bring some of the young guys that had never been out of the country around the PI.

Slims was a great place. My buddies and I were there on their opening day of Christmas Day 1986. Not the usual Christmas but an interesting one LOL
 
#166
Rob01 said:
I got to 3/1 in July of 88 and I was back on West Pac in January of 89 and back to the PI LOL Was fun to bring some of the young guys that had never been out of the country around the PI.

Slims was a great place. My buddies and I were there on their opening day of Christmas Day 1986. Not the usual Christmas but an interesting one LOL
Click to expand...
Right, its amazing what $20 will buy or "make legal" in that part of the world,ha!
 
#167
Three questions and a little story.
1) Did we ever get an answer on the torque used on the rings? I ask as I have a Vortex Viper PST 6x24x50 FFP Mil/Mil mounted with a set of DMZ rings/base and this question has been the key to some vexing problems finally alleviated.
Following DMZ instructions I used the provided L wrench and technique described to approximate 20-25 inch pounds with absolutely no locktite and after bore sighting and about 60 rounds of cheap factory 308 rounds at 50 then 100 rounds I had a nice 100 yard zero. Five rounds later everything went to shit. Ring screws had lost hold.
Back home. Bought a torque wrench, re-torqued, bore sighted and back to the range. This time just got to 100 yards and couldn't find paper. Guess what? The base screws had loosened. Some dumbass should have checked them when re-torqueing the rings. This time I had my tools with me - along with my sense of humor. Went through the whole routine right there at the range using 28 inch pounds all around.
Good to go for about 7-800 rounds of load development at 100-200 yards. Had a sweet 168 gr SMK load finished and started running hotter loads at 175 gr getting ready for 600-1000 yards this spring so I started checking torque as a part of my cleaning routine. Got zeroed at the closer 100 yard range first and noticed a huge amount of drop for the extra 7 grain bullet - about .4-.5 Mil. Checked ballistic readings - this doesn't seem to make sense.
Off to the 200 yard range the next week and compared to my 168gr load at first I was up to 2.4Mils over my zero at 100 yards with the 175's. Ran it back down to zero, started over and ended up 1.6Mils. Getting really nice 1-1.5" groups at 200 yds but something was definitely mucked up, especially when I ran the ballistics #'s in Vortex's useful free ballistics program on their website.
Guy I was shooting with was a competitive shooter gearing up for the season (you know the kind - has about 6 baggies with different brass weights and loads with him). We get to talking about decent groups but puzzling scope dope. Says he heard about Vortex sensitivity to ring torque. Usually shows up in the parallax first. Hadn't seen that but some research on this forum showed me it can screw up elevation and windage.
Where's this all going? Remember I mentioned I had been checking my torque as part of my cleaning routine? Well I checked the torque it took to loosen my rings and apparently some other dumbass inadvertently gotten the rings torqued up to 38 inch pounds!

2) Now I'm not much of a betting man but guess who is thinking he is going to be coming up with some new settings the next trip to the range? Also think my ballistic data will make a lot more sense when I input these new settings.

3) Did someone really pass up a free upgrade from SFP to FFP from Vortex? Wow. Then again, once you get it in your head that you don't trust a brand I guess you have to move on.

I would be interested in any feedback.
 
#168
I have 7 Nightforce scopes. When my wife started getting upset at the outlay for another Nightforce scope I thought i'd try Vortex PST FFR 4-16X50 scopes. I ended up with 2 of them. I had previously had a SPARC on a gun I got in a trade. The bikini scope cover was broken. Vortex sent me 2 with in a few days. No big deal but speaks to the CS.

I have both on 308 semi's for 2 years now. The glass is very clear and the resolution and tracking are excellent and not a single problem. Is it equal to a Nightforce, not at all but an excellent buy for the $$$. Made in China or the Philippines don't always mean junk. My Apple I-Pad I-Touch and MacBookPro are made in China and have been trouble free for years where my Dell computers that were made in the US at the time had one problem after the other.
I agree with those that do not understand why the OP did not take the free upgrade to the FFP PST. I suppose he had his reason.
 
#169
CH Luke said:
Three questions and a little story.
1) Did we ever get an answer on the torque used on the rings? I ask as I have a Vortex Viper PST 6x24x50 FFP Mil/Mil mounted with a set of DMZ rings/base and this question has been the key to some vexing problems finally alleviated.
Following DMZ instructions I used the provided L wrench and technique described to approximate 20-25 inch pounds with absolutely no locktite and after bore sighting and about 60 rounds of cheap factory 308 rounds at 50 then 100 rounds I had a nice 100 yard zero. Five rounds later everything went to shit. Ring screws had lost hold.
Back home. Bought a torque wrench, re-torqued, bore sighted and back to the range. This time just got to 100 yards and couldn't find paper. Guess what? The base screws had loosened. Some dumbass should have checked them when re-torqueing the rings. This time I had my tools with me - along with my sense of humor. Went through the whole routine right there at the range using 28 inch pounds all around.
Good to go for about 7-800 rounds of load development at 100-200 yards. Had a sweet 168 gr SMK load finished and started running hotter loads at 175 gr getting ready for 600-1000 yards this spring so I started checking torque as a part of my cleaning routine. Got zeroed at the closer 100 yard range first and noticed a huge amount of drop for the extra 7 grain bullet - about .4-.5 Mil. Checked ballistic readings - this doesn't seem to make sense.
Off to the 200 yard range the next week and compared to my 168gr load at first I was up to 2.4Mils over my zero at 100 yards with the 175's. Ran it back down to zero, started over and ended up 1.6Mils. Getting really nice 1-1.5" groups at 200 yds but something was definitely mucked up, especially when I ran the ballistics #'s in Vortex's useful free ballistics program on their website.
Guy I was shooting with was a competitive shooter gearing up for the season (you know the kind - has about 6 baggies with different brass weights and loads with him). We get to talking about decent groups but puzzling scope dope. Says he heard about Vortex sensitivity to ring torque. Usually shows up in the parallax first. Hadn't seen that but some research on this forum showed me it can screw up elevation and windage.
Where's this all going? Remember I mentioned I had been checking my torque as part of my cleaning routine? Well I checked the torque it took to loosen my rings and apparently some other dumbass inadvertently gotten the rings torqued up to 38 inch pounds!

2) Now I'm not much of a betting man but guess who is thinking he is going to be coming up with some new settings the next trip to the range? Also think my ballistic data will make a lot more sense when I input these new settings.

3) Did someone really pass up a free upgrade from SFP to FFP from Vortex? Wow. Then again, once you get it in your head that you don't trust a brand I guess you have to move on.

I would be interested in any feedback.
Click to expand...

15-18 in/lbs with loc-tite. My Vortex was all over the place when I first got it. I was quite belligerent with Vortex during that time, and I was in disbelief when their CS rep told me to torque my rings to well below normal specs. To appease him, and in hopes of getting a new piece of glass, I went ahead with these numbers. To my surprise, never had another issue out of the scope. It's been dropped, banged against trees while climbing tree stands etc, and still holds zero every time. It's been over a year now, and nothing has moved, including my zero.

Additionally, due to the weaker construction of the scope body (this is why they suggest 15-18 in/lbs) I would advise lapping (or having a smith do so) the scope rings to ensure that they are in perfect alignment. A slight misalignment of the rings (or over torquing) is going to cause binding of the parallax adjustment on the front, and of the erector on the rear rings. Anything you can do to make sure that scope is happy and comfortable is going to go a long way towards making you a happy owner.
 
#170
samnev said:
I have 7 Nightforce scopes. When my wife started getting upset at the outlay for another Nightforce scope I thought i'd try Vortex PST FFR 4-16X50 scopes. I ended up with 2 of them. I had previously had a SPARC on a gun I got in a trade. The bikini scope cover was broken. Vortex sent me 2 with in a few days. No big deal but speaks to the CS.

I have both on 308 semi's for 2 years now. The glass is very clear and the resolution and tracking are excellent and not a single problem. Is it equal to a Nightforce, not at all but an excellent buy for the $$$. Made in China or the Philippines don't always mean junk. My Apple I-Pad I-Touch and MacBookPro are made in China and have been trouble free for years where my Dell computers that were made in the US at the time had one problem after the other.
I agree with those that do not understand why the OP did not take the free upgrade to the FFP PST. I suppose he had his reason.
Click to expand...
Glad youre happy with your PSTs, Ive had half a dozen or so Vortex scopes and they've all be pretty good with the exception of one Viper PA that was DOA out of the box(wouldnt zoom and no windage adjustment) and now my second 4-16 PSTs glass is just terrible. Vortex says there is no difference in glass between the PSTs but my x32 most definitely has much clearer glass than my 4-16 and slightly better than my last 4-16. I bought this scoped used so I thought maybe the previous owner did something to it and sent it in. They returned it quickly as they have in the past but its not much if any better. Certainly not as good as my x32 and worse than my old 4-16 by a decent amount. Everything else on the scope works fine just glass clarity is not what I was expecting. Im no glass snob by any means as the nicest scope I have is the PSTs and an SWFA 3-15x42. The SWFA definitely has better glass than the 4-16 PST I currently own. Im sending it in again in the hopes that they wont give the same response that the rings were too tight. I use a tq wrench to mount my scopes in seekins rings but I cant attest to what was done to it before I bought it. If the next scope comes back dark and blurry like this one Ill be done with Vortex. Sure they've got a great warranty but its annoying to have to use it quite a bit. If you get a good one theyre probably the best value out there without a doubt.
 
#171
1slow01z71 said:
Glad youre happy with your PSTs, Ive had half a dozen or so Vortex scopes and they've all be pretty good with the exception of one Viper PA that was DOA out of the box(wouldnt zoom and no windage adjustment) and now my second 4-16 PSTs glass is just terrible. Vortex says there is no difference in glass between the PSTs but my x32 most definitely has much clearer glass than my 4-16 and slightly better than my last 4-16. I bought this scoped used so I thought maybe the previous owner did something to it and sent it in. They returned it quickly as they have in the past but its not much if any better. Certainly not as good as my x32 and worse than my old 4-16 by a decent amount. Everything else on the scope works fine just glass clarity is not what I was expecting. Im no glass snob by any means as the nicest scope I have is the PSTs and an SWFA 3-15x42. The SWFA definitely has better glass than the 4-16 PST I currently own. Im sending it in again in the hopes that they wont give the same response that the rings were too tight. I use a tq wrench to mount my scopes in seekins rings but I cant attest to what was done to it before I bought it. If the next scope comes back dark and blurry like this one Ill be done with Vortex. Sure they've got a great warranty but its annoying to have to use it quite a bit. If you get a good one theyre probably the best value out there without a doubt.
Click to expand...

Yes I feel very lucky that I got 2 good ones. I got them when they first came out and was surprised at all the folks that were unhappy with the glass on the 4-16X50 FFP Vipers.
 
#172
Voertex Optics Never Ever Again!!!

rangeryo said:
15-18 in/lbs with loc-tite. My Vortex was all over the place when I first got it. I was quite belligerent with Vortex during that time, and I was in disbelief when their CS rep told me to torque my rings to well below normal specs. To appease him, and in hopes of getting a new piece of glass, I went ahead with these numbers. To my surprise, never had another issue out of the scope. It's been dropped, banged against trees while climbing tree stands etc, and still holds zero every time. It's been over a year now, and nothing has moved, including my zero.

Additionally, due to the weaker construction of the scope body (this is why they suggest 15-18 in/lbs) I would advise lapping (or having a smith do so) the scope rings to ensure that they are in perfect alignment. A slight misalignment of the rings (or over torquing) is going to cause binding of the parallax adjustment on the front, and of the erector on the rear rings. Anything you can do to make sure that scope is happy and comfortable is going to go a long way towards making you a happy owner.
Click to expand...

Interesting and I will try your advice. Thanks.
My ring manufacturer specifies no loctite. They do use longer screws. 22 inch pounds no loctite did not hold so I guess I'm going to blow them off and try your advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
#173
CH Luke said:
Interesting and I will try your advice. Thanks.
My ring manufacturer specifies no loctite. They do use longer screws. 22 inch pounds no loctite did not hold so I guess I'm going to blow them off and try your advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The 15-18 in lbs is straight from the horses mouth. That specification was given to me directly by Vortex. As I mentioned in another post, I set mine at 15 in/lbs with a "removable" grade loc-tite, you do not want a permanent bond here. While not necessary, the loc-tite will go a long way to ensure that those screws don't loosen up over time since you will most likely be using a lower than spec torque setting on your rings.

I'm also using a lapped set of Burris XTR rings, which have a very large contact surface compared to most "4 screw" type rings, so I'm sure this helps prevent any scope movement once torqued. Again the lapping, I feel is critical, as the closer to 100% contact you get, the more friction the rings have on the scope body, which obviously decreases the opportunity for any movement.

Again anyone with a vortex who has issues with POI shifting regularly, this is simply an "Over-Torque" issue in more cases than not. If the erector is bound even slightly, and doesn't move freely with turret adjustments, the hit of recoil can release any tension built up causing all of your issues.
 
Last edited:
#175
Viper PST. Mine is a 6-24x50ffp mil mil. Holds zero but the adjustments I have to make do not make any sense ballistics wise. I had heard the ring torque warning from another shooter and read about it here and other places. Makes perfect sense.
Will not get a chance to verify at a range until next weekend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#176
I just lost 10billion brains cells reading this utter crap. Grown ass adults acting like kids. Reminds me of arguments I had back in 2nd grade. My toy cost more than yours so it must be better. Bottom line is you all need to grow up a bit before your internet privileges are re-instated. Wow. And this is supposed to be a "professional" sport.
 
#178
rangeryo said:
The 15-18 in lbs is straight from the horses mouth. That specification was given to me directly by Vortex. As I mentioned in another post, I set mine at 15 in/lbs with a "removable" grade loc-tite, you do not want a permanent bond here. While not necessary, the loc-tite will go a long way to ensure that those screws don't loosen up over time since you will most likely be using a lower than spec torque setting on your rings.

I'm also using a lapped set of Burris XTR rings, which have a very large contact surface compared to most "4 screw" type rings, so I'm sure this helps prevent any scope movement once torqued. Again the lapping, I feel is critical, as the closer to 100% contact you get, the more friction the rings have on the scope body, which obviously decreases the opportunity for any movement.

Again anyone with a vortex who has issues with POI shifting regularly, this is simply an "Over-Torque" issue in more cases than not. If the erector is bound even slightly, and doesn't move freely with turret adjustments, the hit of recoil can release any tension built up causing all of your issues.
Click to expand...

Had a chance to verify today after loosening, adding thread lock and re-torquing to 18 inches. My biggest concern was that I had damaged something internally plus curiosity about where my 100 yard zero might end up since I had shimmed to it.

Started with my best 168gr SMK load with N140 pushing about 2500 FPS according to my Sierra book for my barrel and action (verified factory COAL). Brought tools expecting to re-shim, never had to. Pleasant surprise. Hadn't shot 100 yards in a while and it was nice to see the 1/4 MOA groups with two same holes in 8 rounds.
Then for the first test - moved to my 175gr N540 load with a book 2400 FPS with the same drop of about 3". This time it took less than half the clicks to adjust for the weight drop. Walked it right up one click at a time.
On to 200 yards. Back to 168 load. Walked the drop right up with half the clicks as before. Then the 175's again where the drop was less than the 168's for the added distance just as you would expect.
Plotted the dope in the free Vortex website ballistic software and now it starts to makes sense. Feeling it is now coming together enough to invest and spend the time on some better ballistics software.
The goal this year is to go to a 1000 yard range and a two day class there but I didn't want to commit to that with the results I has been getting.

Rangeryo I owe you one. Thanks much.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#180
CH Luke said:
Had a chance to verify today after loosening, adding thread lock and re-torquing to 18 inches. My biggest concern was that I had damaged something internally plus curiosity about where my 100 yard zero might end up since I had shimmed to it.

Started with my best 168gr SMK load with N140 pushing about 2500 FPS according to my Sierra book for my barrel and action (verified factory COAL). Brought tools expecting to re-shim, never had to. Pleasant surprise. Hadn't shot 100 yards in a while and it was nice to see the 1/4 MOA groups with two same holes in 8 rounds.
Then for the first test - moved to my 175gr N540 load with a book 2400 FPS with the same drop of about 3". This time it took less than half the clicks to adjust for the weight drop. Walked it right up one click at a time.
On to 200 yards. Back to 168 load. Walked the drop right up with half the clicks as before. Then the 175's again where the drop was less than the 168's for the added distance just as you would expect.
Plotted the dope in the free Vortex website ballistic software and now it starts to makes sense. Feeling it is now coming together enough to invest and spend the time on some better ballistics software.
The goal this year is to go to a 1000 yard range and a two day class there but I didn't want to commit to that with the results I has been getting.

Rangeryo I owe you one. Thanks much.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

No problem man. I know how frustrating it can be. I was ready to throw my Vortex in the trash bin until I discovered this. At one point I had my gun by the end of the barrel (obviously unloaded) ready to use it as an axe on this big ass oak tree near my shooting position..
 
#181
CH Luke, while you mean well.. ( I think??) you just seem to push people's buttons by posting shit that nobody cares about. A 168 smk shot good... HOLY SHIT!!! This IS NOT MY SPACE
Look, do yourself a favor and lurk around for a while. You'll see real quick that you'll learn more by just reading than you will by posting shit that nobody cares about. You sealed your fate already in regards to reputation, but maybe if you cut the Daily journal bullshit out you won't get hazed so much
 
#182
i just sent vortex a 2.5-10 pst with a bent elevation turret. all i sent was the scope, 4 business days later, i had a new scope, shims, allen, box, and shade. the OP should choke his self, you're a turd.
 
#188
OP,

Please bring your nuts back to customer service and exchange them for the proper sized vagina. Because yours are unused and still in the packaging there will not be a 10% restocking fee. Thank you for shopping at Cheekspreaders "R" US.
 
#189
I do not necessarily judge a product solely by where it is manufactured. Quality products can be made in any country if the company invests in infra structure and competent quality control. Case in point Apple products are made in China. I haven't heard a lot of bad reports on any Apple product and all of mine have been perfect for years. As for glass Konus Pro M30 line of scopes which I feel is a vastly underrated low cost scope has served my brother well on his 308 SPS Tactical for going on 4 years now and he shoots it a lot. I am usually a Nightforce guy although recently I have bought the Bushnell Elite 3.5-21X50. But I was so impressed with my brothers Konus M30 6.5-25X44 I bought one or one of my AR 15's. It has served me well for 2 years. Glass is decent s is tracking. Components are made i Europe and assembled in China under strict QC control but the Italian company that owns Konus. I agree with Elfster if a company sells a lot of product like Vortex there will be a bigger number of defective products but is the % any different than a smaller company that sells a much smaller number of scopes. Unless you have that data no fair comparison can be made imo. Granted a lot of cheap junk is made in China but so is some very very good quality products like Apple.
 
#190
I run 3 S&B's, sold a Nightforce, was a good scope but after a drop and a $600 charge to get it fixed
from nightforce, not again. Got a Razor, Spur deal from Mile high and I am Really impressed with it.
Great glass, Tracks great. Eye box a bit small. I would not hesitate to get another. As far as customer service goes,
I dropped my Razor Bino's at last years Safari, My fault not theirs, Guess what, repaired no charge.
I'm impressed with the product.
 
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