Rifle Scopes Vortex AMG 1-10 LPVO

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Every single LPVO especialy with this type of erector is going to have compromises. It's almost impossible to have a true 1x and every red dot or lpvo has some degree of magnification be it 1.01 or 1.1x.

If you want the closest thing to perfect, then shell out $5k for the S&B dual. Otherwise, the gen 3 razor is the best product on the market by a decent amount.

Is it perfect? No . Nothing is.

 

[Scott_at_Vortex]

......... I don't recall the result being significantly different. But I'd like to go and look through it again and be more intentional about adjusting it at 1x to see how it looks. Thanks for chiming in

I will be curious to hear how it goes for you. I think you'll be surprised at how significant(for the end user) diopter adjustment is on 1x scopes.



While adjusting diopter on higher mag scopes we are generally looking at reticle focus. What we don't notice is the magnification component that diopters have. On high mag scopes we may not have the diopter set just right to our eye and a side effect is that our parallax numbers won't line up on our parallax adjustment which is not a huge deal. It doesn't really affect the optical performance in the grand scheme.

On a 1x scope it's a much bigger deal not having the diopter just right and it's because of the magnification component of the diopter. If we don't adjust the diopter with the scope set to 1x to a true visual 1x using one of the processes I mentioned in this thread. We(the end user) can end up with a 1x scope that may be presenting an image that is well below 1x or well above 1x depending which direction the diopter is improperly adjusted to your eye.


If you want to visually see the magnification component of the diopter adjustment there is a quick experiment most peoples eyes can do if they have a 1x scope(any mfg's 1x scope)-

With the mag ring set to 1x turn the diopter all the way in. Viewing through the scope you will see that the magnification is now well below 1x. Then back it out a good bit and you'll see the image is now magnified above 1x. Now, somewhere in between these two points lies the 1x (no magnification) diopter setting we are looking for.
I hope I explained that last sentence well enough. An easier way to say might be- if we know we can get below 1x with diopter adjustment and we know we can get above 1x. It's pretty safe to assume that true 1x is in there somewhere between those two points.

 

[jh2785]

Thank you! I think I understand it well. I’m going to look through one again on my next LGS visit

 

[koshkin]

I will be curious to hear how it goes for you. I think you'll be surprised at how significant(for the end user) diopter adjustment is on 1x scopes.



While adjusting diopter on higher mag scopes we are generally looking at reticle focus. What we don't notice is the magnification component that diopters have. On high mag scopes we may not have the diopter set just right to our eye and a side effect is that our parallax numbers won't line up on our parallax adjustment which is not a huge deal. It doesn't really affect the optical performance in the grand scheme.

On a 1x scope it's a much bigger deal not having the diopter just right and it's because of the magnification component of the diopter. If we don't adjust the diopter with the scope set to 1x to a true visual 1x using one of the processes I mentioned in this thread. We(the end user) can end up with a 1x scope that may be presenting an image that is well below 1x or well above 1x depending which direction the diopter is improperly adjusted to your eye.


If you want to visually see the magnification component of the diopter adjustment there is a quick experiment most peoples eyes can do if they have a 1x scope(any mfg's 1x scope)-

With the mag ring set to 1x turn the diopter all the way in. Viewing through the scope you will see that the magnification is now well below 1x. Then back it out a good bit and you'll see the image is now magnified above 1x. Now, somewhere in between these two points lies the 1x (no magnification) diopter setting we are looking for.
I hope I explained that last sentence well enough. An easier way to say might be- if we know we can get below 1x with diopter adjustment and we know we can get above 1x. It's pretty safe to assume that true 1x is in there somewhere between those two points.

That is a very good guideline and explanation. I will add a couple of small details though that often end up being overlooked and are among the reasons nearly every guntuber on Youtube has the eyepiece set up incorrectly.

When you do this eyepiece fine tuning, do not do it indoors while looking at a piece of furniture across the room from you. Because it is an afocal telescope rather than a reflex sight, the scope is looking at things from the spot where the objective is. That is a slightly different perspective than where your eye is and that becomes more prominent on targets that are super close. As you get just a little further out, it stops making a perceptible difference. For a similar reason, you also want to do this with the elevation and windage adjustments somewhat centered. Cranking the elevation all the way to one end will essentially create a parallax between the objective of the scope and your eye when looking at horizontal lines.

I have seen this effect a bunch of times in Youtube videos and I can never tell whether it is incompetence or malfeasance. If you slam a popular product you get a lot of views, so I do not know if they do it intentionally or not. From the way the talk about scopes, my best guess is that they usually do not understand how they work on the inside, but you never know.

ILya

 

[RKBArmory]

I'm glad this thread keeps hanging around. It has good info about adjusting a diopter, from very knowledgeable people.

 

[Glassaholic]

Well, looks like this scope is back in the limelight

Edgar Brothers Awarded Contract to Supply Alternative Individual Weapon System to UK MOD | Soldier Systems Daily

Edgar Brothers is delighted to announce that we have been awarded a Contract to supply the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) with the Alternative Individual Weap ...

soldiersystems.net

Would like to know if this is a special run specifically for this platform or is this a scope that will make it to the civilian market anytime soon.... Did we ever get confirmation this is an AMG line scope?

Nice that the UK picked a US Manufacturer for the rifle, the mount, the scope(s) and more...

 

[rlsmith1]

Edgar Brothers Awarded Contract to Supply Alternative Individual Weapon System to UK MOD | Soldier Systems Daily

Edgar Brothers is delighted to announce that we have been awarded a Contract to supply the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) with the Alternative Individual Weap ...

soldiersystems.net

Would like to know if this is a special run specifically for this platform or is this a scope that will make it to the civilian market anytime soon.... Did we ever get confirmation this is an AMG line scope?

View attachment 8222059

Nice that the UK picked a US Manufacturer for the rifle, the mount, the scope(s) and more...

I'm just as curious how they got almost all of that FDE to match

 

[Glassaholic]

I'm just as curious how they got almost all of that FDE to match

Likely part of the spec by AIWS. Not sure if mfr is providing it that way or if Edgar Bros are doing the work.

 

[jh2785]

I wonder how that scope is on 1x (field of view, etc). Maybe we'll see it at Shot Show 2024

 

[kriller134]

That’s a bad ass rifle system

 

[koshkin]

I wonder how that scope is on 1x (field of view, etc). Maybe we'll see it at Shot Show 2024

Really excellent. I am not aware of it heading to the civilian market, but anything is possible.
Given that Vortex did not go to SHOT last couple of years, I doubt we will see it there. Maybe if KA brings the rifle there.

ILya

 

[TheOE800]

Likely part of the spec by AIWS. Not sure if mfr is providing it that way or if Edgar Bros are doing the work.

I’d suspect some kind of coating like cerakote applied by Edgar Bros after the fact.

 

[Nik H]

From the way the talk about scopes, my best guess is that they usually do not understand how they work on the inside, but you never know.

ILya

I would agree with this...

 

[jh2785]

Really excellent. I am not aware of it heading to the civilian market, but anything is possible.
Given that Vortex did not go to SHOT last couple of years, I doubt we will see it there. Maybe if KA brings the rifle there.

ILya

You've been able to peer through this scope? If so, how does it compare to the Gen 3 Razor 1-10?

 

[koshkin]

You've been able to peer through this scope? If so, how does it compare to the Gen 3 Razor 1-10?

Since it is not a consumer product at this stage, I do not think Vortex would appreciate me talking about it. It is not a secret that it exists (clearly) and I was quite impressed with it, but I do not think I can get into any details.

ILya

 

[drwood96]

Some more action shots:

 

[jh2785]

Since it is not a consumer product at this stage, I do not think Vortex would appreciate me talking about it. It is not a secret that it exists (clearly) and I was quite impressed with it, but I do not think I can get into any details.

ILya

Okay, I hear what you’re saying. BUT…..what if your detailed review and praises……help some other military or agency….make the decision to buy these?? Then Vortex would totally love it. Just say’n!

 

[jh2785]

Okay, I hear what you’re saying. BUT…..what if your detailed review and praises……help some other military or agency….make the decision to buy these?? Then Vortex would totally love it. Just say’n!

It’d be really cool if this new .mil 1-10 is like the 1-6 at 1x. That’d be freaking amazing.

 

[Burdy]

It’d be really cool if this new .mil 1-10 is like the 1-6 at 1x. That’d be freaking amazing.

Doesn't matter. Why do you think the red dot is piggybacked? Because it is impossible to get a 1x view on a LPVO to be as fast as a red dot, no matter how good the scope is. I've been preaching piggybacking red dots on top of LPVOs for years now and I do not think there is a better combat effective combo. Good to see it finally getting it's due. Additionally, this is the reason I push so hard for MPVOs. I don't need a 1 to 10. I need a 2.5-10 with all the wonderful attributes a 4x erector provides and let my chosen red dot do the short work.

 

[koshkin]

Okay, I hear what you’re saying. BUT…..what if your detailed review and praises……help some other military or agency….make the decision to buy these?? Then Vortex would totally love it. Just say’n!

The NDA says they might not be on board with that.

 

[dms416]

Doesn't matter. Why do you think the red dot is piggybacked? Because it is impossible to get a 1x view on a LPVO to be as fast as a red dot, no matter how good the scope is. I've been preaching piggybacking red dots on top of LPVOs for years now and I do not think there is a better combat effective combo. Good to see it finally getting it's due. Additionally, this is the reason I push so hard for MPVOs. I don't need a 1 to 10. I need a 2.5-10 with all the wonderful attributes a 4x erector provides and let my chosen red dot do the short work.

Eh...it's akin to the pistol red dot vs pistol iron speed "debate" and which allows for leeway in a sloppy or imperfect presentation.
Those that "can't find the dot" on an RDS pistol are probably also the ones that haven't done enough ready-ups to exploit the bottom end of a viable LPVO.

There are indeed a few LPVO's with the feature set and specifications if set correctly, are close enough to 1x at a given range/parallax that there is no negligeable differential in a competent shooter's hands . However, many of preferred offerings on the market are not ones I believe qualify.

But I do concur...the modern suite of mRDS's (particularly the Acro P2 and some others) have liberated us from the need to be tied to a 1x bottom end (even if many didn't ever really have a 1x bottom end worth a damn in the first place). Though I'm gonna want a bit more on my top end than 10x, but I know myself well enough that I don't want to give up much past 2.5/3x on the bottom either clinging to a 4x ratio.

 

[Burdy]

Eh...it's akin to the pistol red dot vs pistol iron speed "debate" and which allows for leeway in a sloppy or imperfect presentation.
Those that "can't find the dot" on an RDS pistol are probably also the ones that haven't done enough ready-ups to exploit the bottom end of a viable LPVO.

There are indeed a few LPVO's with the feature set and specifications if set correctly, are close enough to 1x at a given range/parallax that there is no negligeable differential in a competent shooter's hands . However, many of preferred offerings on the market are not ones I believe qualify.

But I do concur...the modern suite of mRDS's (particularly the Acro P2 and some others) have liberated us from the need to be tied to a 1x bottom end (even if many didn't ever really have a 1x bottom end worth a damn in the first place). Though I'm gonna want a bit more on my top end than 10x, but I know myself well enough that I don't want to give up much past 2.5/3x on the bottom either clinging to a 4x ratio.

The problem is all that goes out the window in dynamic shooting. Off-axis shots are a real thing, and happen often. It's similar to the incorrect argument that there is "unlimited FOV" with both eyes open regardless of whether you are running a small red dot or something large like an EOTech. The issue is as off-axis shots begin to center, the reticle will appear first on large flat windowed optics like an EOtech or Vortex Huey moving from the corner to the center. It will then appear on something like an Aimpoint or similar and lastly, a LPVO. Great competent shooters can run all three within a few hundreds or thousands even, in KNOWN drills. It's when they don't know what is coming and when they are forced into less ideal positions that the LPVO lags...and at least with current technology, it always will. If all you had to do is kick one door to save your life, a LPVO would be your worst option.

 

[dms416]

The problem is all that goes out the window in dynamic shooting. Off-axis shots are a real thing, and happen often. It's similar to the incorrect argument that there is "unlimited FOV" with both eyes open regardless of whether you are running a small red dot or something large like an EOTech. The issue is as off-axis shots begin to center, the reticle will appear first on large flat windowed optics like an EOtech or Vortex Huey moving from the corner to the center. It will then appear on something like an Aimpoint or similar and lastly, a LPVO. Great competent shooters can run all three within a few hundreds or thousands even, in KNOWN drills. It's when they don't know what is coming and when they are forced into less ideal positions that the LPVO lags...and at least with current technology, it always will. If all you had to do is kick one door to save your life, a LPVO would be your worst option.

Sounds good. In now my 15th year of using the lpvo professionally, I can say I’ve benefitted from the magnification more than I’ve been killed due to the “lag” or your dynamic shooting.

Good talk

 

[Burdy]

Sounds good. In now my 15th year of using the lpvo professionally, I can say I’ve benefitted from the magnification more than I’ve been killed due to the “lag” or your dynamic shooting.

Good talk

I don't disagree with that. Me too. Which is why I've owned a boatload of them (Kahles, NF, S&B, Steiner, EOTech etc) Won't change the fact that a red dot is faster..which is why I run both. I think the LPVO is the single most important optic of the last 10 years.or so.

 

[Nik H]

Well, looks like this scope is back in the limelight

Edgar Brothers Awarded Contract to Supply Alternative Individual Weapon System to UK MOD | Soldier Systems Daily

Edgar Brothers is delighted to announce that we have been awarded a Contract to supply the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) with the Alternative Individual Weap ...

soldiersystems.net

Would like to know if this is a special run specifically for this platform or is this a scope that will make it to the civilian market anytime soon.... Did we ever get confirmation this is an AMG line scope?

View attachment 8222059

Nice that the UK picked a US Manufacturer for the rifle, the mount, the scope(s) and more...

I have been using the AUS mount and the Acro for a while with my AR10 and AR15 rifles. That combination with a reliable LPVO has been a game-changer.

 

[Glassaholic]

I have been using the AUS mount and the Acro for a while with my AR10 and AR15 rifles. That combination with a reliable LPVO has been a game-changer.

I just got the AUS mount but no accessories for it, really like it for big 1/2" bolts that don't stick out to grab things, though my Badger never grabbed anything, I always felt like it would. I tried running a RDS piggyback but did not like the layout so went with 45° offset and prefer that more, but I get the issue with barricades and if I have to go off the left side my offset RDS is going to be blocked by the wall which makes the piggyback option more viable, maybe I need to give that a try again...

 

[Nik H]

I just got the AUS mount but no accessories for it, really like it for big 1/2" bolts that don't stick out to grab things, though my Badger never grabbed anything, I always felt like it would. I tried running a RDS piggyback but did not like the layout so went with 45° offset and prefer that more, but I get the issue with barricades and if I have to go off the left side my offset RDS is going to be blocked by the wall which makes the piggyback option more viable, maybe I need to give that a try again...

I was never a real fan of the piggyback but the AUS piggyback mount for the ACRO is money. A little pricey but worth it IMHO

 

[rlsmith1]

I was never a real fan of the piggyback but the AUS piggyback mount for the ACRO is money. A little pricey but worth it IMHO

Why ACRO over RMR? I’ve got an AUS with a piggyback RMR over a 1-8 and love it

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I'm just as curious how they got almost all of that FDE to match

Easy. Cerakoted instead of anodized. One is predictable the other not.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I don't disagree with that. Me too. Which is why I've owned a boatload of them (Kahles, NF, S&B, Steiner, EOTech etc) Won't change the fact that a red dot is faster..which is why I run both. I think the LPVO is the single most important optic of the last 10 years.or so.

If you are an assaulter in a tier 1 unit, that speed difference may matter. For everyone else, it's irrelevant.

 

[Nik H]

Why ACRO over RMR? I’ve got an AUS with a piggyback RMR over a 1-8 and love it

I like that the ACRO is sealed and protects the red dot from debris. In effect, the design ensures that you always have the red dot when you need it. It is nothing against the RMR.

 

[Glassaholic]

I was never a real fan of the piggyback but the AUS piggyback mount for the ACRO is money. A little pricey but worth it IMHO

So how does the AUS piggyback differ from other piggyback designs that makes it better?

 

[Nik H]

So how does the AUS piggyback differ from other piggyback designs that makes it better?

I would be the last to be able to tell you other than to say when I need the dot, it is visible. Not sure if it is the height above the turret or fore/aft positioning.

 

[Burdy]

So how does the AUS piggyback differ from other piggyback designs that makes it better?

I don't think anything. Ive used it and Spuhr and as long as they present the dot properly, I would think it doesn't matter.

 

[dms416]

Why ACRO over RMR? I’ve got an AUS with a piggyback RMR over a 1-8 and love it

Have you looked through an ACRO? While the fish-eye affect on the RMR is manageable to do pistol-distance work, It's a night and day difference compared to the ACRO in that the Aimpoint runs like an Aimpoint and is better suited for a rifle. On top of that, there's the closed emitter and the ability to change batteries without removing/rezeroing the unit.

 

[dms416]

If you are an assaulter in a tier 1 unit, that speed difference may matter. For everyone else, it's irrelevant.

Someone else said it better (to paraphrase): "The LPVO is ideal for those that don't know what they're going to get into".

If you only "kick doors" and work room-distances...get you the equipment and zero to do that.

I think the fellas that worked the "what would Eugene Stoner do?" way back when were correct in that much of the world has it backwards. LPVO for general use, red-dot/holo is the "specialty" equipment. The dudes that extol their ability to hit high-contrast IPSCs at distance can say what they like.

 

[Burdy]

If you are an assaulter in a tier 1 unit, that speed difference may matter. For everyone else, it's irrelevant.

If a competitive shooter sees a speed advantage, I would say it's relevant. Especially if he makes his money shooting. As with anything, you need to assess whether it makes sense for your use case or not. If I could only choose one optic, I would choose the LPVO knowing I am giving up some slight speed but gaining a lot of precision at distance and more importantly PID. But I like to have my cake and eat it too.

 

[Burdy]

Someone else said it better (to paraphrase): "The LPVO is ideal for those that don't know what they're going to get into".

If you only "kick doors" and work room-distances...get you the equipment and zero to do that.

I think the fellas that worked the "what would Eugene Stoner do?" way back when were correct in that much of the world has it backwards. LPVO for general use, red-dot/holo is the "specialty" equipment. The dudes that extol their ability to hit high-contrast IPSCs at distance can say what they like.

Agreed.

Also, here is another shot of that scope in black. Very interested to take a gander at this one. Interested to see what they did with the reticle as well.

 

[dms416]

Agreed.

Also, here is another shot of that scope in black. Very interested to take a gander at this one. Interested to see what they did with the reticle as well.
View attachment 8224598

Yeah, I'm kinda annoyed by the "oh we can't talk about that" aspect of this optic from some people here....given how old this thread is and how long the cat has been out the bag.

 

[leeb10]

I don't think anything. Ive used it and Spuhr and as long as they present the dot properly, I would think it doesn't matter.

View attachment 8224558View attachment 8224559View attachment 8224560

What’s this flip up turret cap we are looking at?

 

[Burdy]

Yeah, I'm kinda annoyed by the "oh we can't talk about that" aspect of this optic from some people here....given how old this thread is and how long the cat has been out the bag.

Eh, it comes with the territory. I am not going to knock anyone holding to an NDA, I have signed a few that have had some serious consequences. It's simply not worth your job if you love what you do. At the end of the day, none of the specs and features really matter at all (to most) unless it's available to buy and it seems like that could be a while...if ever.

 

[Burdy]

What’s this flip up turret cap we are looking at?

That's a flip top turret for the Kahles K18i/K16i. Unfortunately never sold in the U.S. but I had a overseas colleague go out on a limb for me. It actually has a very high-quality feel to the turret and stop.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

If a competitive shooter sees a speed advantage, I would say it's relevant. Especially if he makes his money shooting. As with anything, you need to assess whether it makes sense for your use case or not. If I could only choose one optic, I would choose the LPVO knowing I am giving up some slight speed but gaining a lot of precision at distance and more importantly PID. But I like to have my cake and eat it too.

Competitive shooting is not armed combat.

You know, what these were designed for.

The versatility of a lpvo especially with PID and making precisie shots to eliminate hidden threats at distance outweigs the few milliseconds difference between an a lpvo and pure reflex or holo sight ( that all have some degree of parralax and magnification). It's why they have quickly taken over as the go to optic across the spectrum.

There are very few people who need that difference, and those that do, already know it.

 

[dms416]

If a competitive shooter sees a speed advantage, I would say it's relevant.

With "hit factor" scoring and maintaining real-world accountability.....

But seriously though, I respect the process of how things are vetted. This is all getting needlessly into the weeds

 

[Burdy]

Competitive shooting is not armed combat.

You know, what these were designed for.

The versatility of a lpvo especially with PID and making precisie shots to eliminate hidden threats at distance outweigs the few milliseconds difference between an a lpvo and pure reflex or holo sight ( that all have some degree of parralax and magnification). It's why they have quickly taken over as the go to optic across the spectrum.

There are very few people who need that difference, and those that do, already know it.

You do realize you are arguing with someone who has the same opinion as you, right? Which is...weird.

 

[jh2785]

Someone on thefirearmblog.com commented that they called Vortex and were told that this optic would likely be coming to the USA commercial market.

 

[rlsmith1]

Have you looked through an ACRO? While the fish-eye affect on the RMR is manageable to do pistol-distance work, It's a night and day difference compared to the ACRO in that the Aimpoint runs like an Aimpoint and is better suited for a rifle. On top of that, there's the closed emitter and the ability to change batteries without removing/rezeroing the unit.

I have not, but have been happy with my RMR for now. I wouldn’t say I’ve spent a ton of time running the dot but I’ve not noticed the fish-eye (but probably will now, thanks haha). I just didn’t consider the ACRO as much since I grabbed a used RMR for close to $300.

Enclosed emitter and flatter image are certainly advantages

 

[dms416]

I have not, but have been happy with my RMR for now. I wouldn’t say I’ve spent a ton of time running the dot but I’ve not noticed the fish-eye (but probably will now, thanks haha). I just didn’t consider the ACRO as much since I grabbed a used RMR for close to $300.

Enclosed emitter and flatter image are certainly advantages

I’ve used the RMR piggyback and they work ok but I know it’s not nowhere near a Micro level image…the Acro is in the ballpark on the sight picture.

The RMR coating or lens when I try to do precision pistol stuff on smaller targets messes with my eyes when both are open. The Acro, some holosuns do not…but that’s me.

 

[Glassaholic]

That's a flip top turret for the Kahles K18i/K16i. Unfortunately never sold in the U.S. but I had a overseas colleague go out on a limb for me. It actually has a very high-quality feel to the turret and stop.

Sure, rub it in with products we can't get over here. You always have the cool toys What's next the new ZCO 1.7-12x50 that's only available in Europe

 

[Hoody2shoes]

Since it's been brought up-
I literally have spent most of my adult life "kicking doors in" or whatever that means. I and most of my team guys, use an lpvo at 1x and have a piggybacked rds left in passive/nvg settings almost exclusively these days. We aren't law enforcement so that should be noted in optic choice. The reality is that 1x aiming solutions are all the same speed wise in a dynamic environment, not because of physics but because of the human factor. A human can only process things so quickly. Proper tactical application and execution of techniques are what shave time down, not whether you're using an lpvo or eotech. Eotechs are pretty much the shit for passive though. The point is, 1x is 1x and once you have solid fundamentals it doesn't matter what you choose; what matters is the larger piece of the pie, learning to process and respond to a disruptive situation