Not unless Scott at libertyoptics.com opens back up. IMO the Razor was one of the better sub-2k options. I still own a couple, and I prefer the atacr for the same money.
Vortex RazorHD Gen III 6-36x56 vs NF ATACR 7-35x56
- Thread starter nrspence
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Both great Optically with a slight edge to the Razor, The NF paralax is quick and easy, also the NF is a little lighter. Not a fan of the Razor turrets, the NF is just better turret wise for me.
Not to throw a grenade in here but I think the Element Theos beats both those optics.
I’m in analysis paralysis with these 2 scopes. I don’t feel like I can justify a zco right now so NF and G3R are my options. I looked at element as well but I’ve never had the chance to interact with one in person. I can get the razor for slightly less than the NF but the difference isn’t large enough to swing my decision..
It's difficult when your hard earned cash is on the line, right!
I have had all three, I still have the Theos on my SRS, great for 338lm with it's 36x mag and it's still usable at the top, I am considering picking up a second one, the prices on those are great. Also the tracking on the Theos is perfect, some other reviewers have said it's be best tracking optic they have tested. I felt like the NF kinda lost me after 30-32x. You can't go wrong with either three, however I will say it again. I do not like the RG3 turrets or it's weight. I did a comparo between the Razor and the Theos, they are made at the same factory, and are dimensionally identical, I think it's the same tube actually and some of the same lense elements so both offer excellent glass. The Theos turrets are honestly the best next to the TT, so easy to set and without a tool. Somehow the Theos is lighter however. The nice thing about NF however is that they have a wider verity of reticles, if you like simple the Mil-R or Mil-C is clean and easy. I would put it like this- the Theos and NF are equal but for different reasons, the Vortex would be my third pick of the three. If warranty is a big factor for you then my clear pick would be NF before the Theos as NF will fix your stuff state side, where the Element Theos will get fixed here as well but is a much smaller outfit at least in the states. The Vortex has a killer warranty but once again it would be my last pick for the other reasons I mentioned earlier.
here is a very extensive review of the Theos.
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The Gen III was awesome at sub $2K but now with their crazy price increase I don’t know.
I really enjoy the NF 7-35 but I DO NOT like the 12 Mil turrets. Shooting centerfire not that big of a deal but rimfire and you end up all jacked up.
It is a crazy day when the NF can be had for probably $300-$500 less then a vortex.
I really enjoy the NF 7-35 but I DO NOT like the 12 Mil turrets. Shooting centerfire not that big of a deal but rimfire and you end up all jacked up.
It is a crazy day when the NF can be had for probably $300-$500 less then a vortex.
The Gen III was never Sub $2k officially as that is less than dealer’s cost, Scott at LO programmed many to believe that. But…
Some people did get free ones at matches and flip them or some people grabbed 50% off certificates on the prize tables.
All the above happened at a large scale and devalued the Gen III unfortunately, which is a fantastic scope under $3k.
Now Scott seems to be on the run and Vortex’s sales are hurting, IMO the best thing to do is not repeat lines like this, “ The Gen III was awesome at sub $2K but now with their crazy price increase I don’t know. ”
Their MAP pricing never changed, their MSRP to calculate discounts has.
That Element Theos looks like it has some of the same features as the NF ATACR, Trijicon Ten Mile, and Vortex Razor G3. I'm thinking they are all basically made at the same factory (someone please correct me and shed some light if I'm mistaken). So if that is the case, then it should be a pretty good performer. I have the other three, just not a Theos.
I watched some of the video (can't stomach Gavin schilling all that much), and definitely noticed the similarities. The reticle is basically the same as the Razor, but with the horizontal cross hair flipped. The 12 mil turrets and capped windage are like the NF. And the tooless zero is like the Trijicon. Plus it is roughly the same size. I'd have to monkey with it to see what the closest comparison is for the feel of the magnification, parallax, and turrets (but I'm guessing it is close to the others too...with the exception of the NF magnification).
If one didn't know and were able to identify reticles...I bet I could stick most people behind the other three and they'd have a hard time picking which was "best".
In which case, unless one hated or loved a particular feature...price point might be the biggest determining factor, as quality is going to be extremely close.
My perspective is from the consumer, not the seller. So take it for what it's worth.
To me this explains why the market share dropped on the Gen3 6-36. It was the cream of the crop when you could buy it at under 2k.
They are just another data point at sub 3k. At the current price you need to start finding features you like or dislike, brand loyalty, warranty, customer support, etc all plays into it. They are still competing, I don't find any fault with my Gen3 6-36 or gen2 4.5-27 for that matter. If they are side by side I do prefer the NF by a small margin.
Well it does matter when consumers want a price that's better than what a dealer gets it for which has happened hundreds of times to me personally. There's no way a dealer can stay in business by selling items to customer's for hundred's of dollars less than what they pay.
I 100% get and understand what you are saying. I have friends who fell victim to Scott. However I was trying to respond to why the g3 might have fell off in PRS.
Let me help you a bit. If you are ok with both reticles and locking elevation/rotating eyepiece isn’t a deal-breaker, here are some links to tests on the two scopes: flare, mirage, low light
FLARE
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/posts/11733409/https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/posts/11733620/
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...son-from-kinetics-security-solutions.7131466/ (this is more than a flare test)
MIRAGE
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/which-nightforce-hellllp.7218751/#post-11578868https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/posts/11735170/
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/posts/11736058/
LOW LIGHT
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/posts/11551339/https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...5-vs-arken-ep5-last-light-comparison.7185836/
A lot of these links go to posts by @R_A_W, but not all. @hafejd30 is in there too. I’ve chatted with both of them as well over dm’s. Since flare control is pretty important to me (yes, I always use sun shades), I am leaning away from the G3 and towards a NF 7-35.
I’d prefer a ZCO or a March, as they reportedly have even better flare control. I love the industrial design and feel of my S&B 5-25, so their 6-36 is of interest. But the scope tech (Jerry) recently left USA HQ and now scopes need to be sent back to Germany, plus its flare control is reportedly worse than the NF. My 5-25 is quite poor in that area.
Plus I’d prefer that the #FOVgate Swaro brouhaha passes and S&B is allowed to uncork the USA versions of the 6-36. Although there is that 5-45…hmmmm
Regardless, I’m not ready to drop that amount of coin for incremental optical gains over the NF 7-35. Not yet, anyway.
Edit: I know @Glassaholic and @koshkin also have good reviews on those two, some with those two scopes head to head. I just don’t have time right now to find and link to them.
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When it launched, it was standard to get one for $2100. Rare is the guy that's buying Nightforce, vortex, Leupold, USO, etc for regular pricing. Everyone knows what the mil/leo or cert prices are. The used prices on all of these is reflected.
On launch, every video on it talked about it being a $2k tangent. It was suddenly stupid to buy an $1800 xtr pro, $1900 FDN, $1800 mk5, $2700 atacr, $3200 kahles, etc., because *for the price* the g3 out performed everything. Yes, MSRP was $4k, but only chumps at Cabela's we're buying moa ones at MSRP.
MSRP hike puts it where it should have been all along. I'm keeping my atacr, because I like the reticle and controls (and color).
The group think and hype around the g3 were real, and it threw a wrench in the
market share.
If that's a rimfire then the the theos is great as it focuses down to ten yards, I can watch ants in my backyard, crazy. I think on paper there is 32mils of internal adjustment but people have pointed out there's actually 36, a little odd.
Does SnB still have a service center here in the US? That's a big deal to a lot of people if they dont....as you know.
I never go off the MSRP for Vortex unless calculating the gov pricing which did pring the price down to lower in the $2kish range as everyone knows., MAP price is $2,999.99 then and now. You're being too literal about it being the ~$2kish Tangent that you are referring to. $2kish is a range of $2,000 to $2,999.99. I'm not saying I saw every video, but I've seen many as this is kind of what we do. I'm not in this world casually and I have a pretty good memory (Not Rainman level lol)
Details matter
-Richard
Yeah, now which thread was that talked about ad nauseam…Does SnB still have a service center here in the US? That's a big deal to a lot of people if they dont....as you know.
lolS&B DID have a long-standing and excellent USA service center until very recently. Jerry left in some manner and POOF! it’s apparently gone!
Lol, right which thread? Funny how March got blasted for the same reason and here we are with the gold standard of optics, that's news to me. Fantastic product, the 5-25 is still relevant and can be had used sub 3k.... people don't want to send their stuff to Japan, Germany is worse IMHO. That's probably going to effect sales I imagine?Yeah, now which thread was that on…
They DID have a long-standing and excellent USA service center until very recently. Jerry left in some manner and POOF! it’s apparently gone!
I would think. I’d be amazed if that was not the case.
As the single biggest market for firearms accessories in the world, it sorta boggles the mind to not have a US based service center. Especially for expensive stuff.
Perhaps there’s some data that we don’t know, like S&B/Swaro and Swaro’s Kahles etc just sell more in Europe because grubby Americans don’t buy as much of their product as the Euros do?
The Gen III Razor looks damn good on a Vudoo, even on a pine pollen covered deck, and does everything needed for the sport. You won’t be disappointed if you go this route.
OK, for sanity's sake I went back and checked a couple of those videos, and I stand corrected. Area 419's video called it a "Three thousand dollar tangent that's not as pretty", not a $2k Tangent. Covertnoob called it a $2500 scope. I can't remember what DLO had to say about it, because, I'm not going trawl through a 2+ hour video to find it.
Over on Reddit they were pretty big on Liberty Optics and the hype over there is still real.
In my mind it's always been about $2100 because there have been so many "30% off Vortex MAP at Eurooptic" certs on prize tables in 2022 and 2023, and that's where most of the guys I know who have been using Razors have been getting them.
Thanks for calling me out.
I just wanted the information corrected, it's been a lie that's been repeated for years... I don't know much, but what I do know I know well - Richard
I run the Gen 3 razor no complaints but with extra money is the zco TT march or any other brand of scope going to give me any gain...... I only shoot elr type matches nightforce krg and light class.
My main thing is a lot of mils in scope like the Gen 3 giving me 36 mils which is helpful.
I like the warranty with vortex and there here in usa I had a minox and got rid of it only because I didn't want to ship to Germany if something went wrong.
Small sample size because I only shoot local matches and maybe one 2 day match but it’s because of the latest and greatest fad. The local matches I shoot average 30-40 shooters and I would say ZCO is the top scope I see at matches even with guys that are fairly new, followed by Razors and NF being a toss up. Then throw in a few TT’s.
I forgot that I did a short write up about the Theos a while back /2023. I realized that after I zeroed I only had 25mils of internal elevation as I had used a mount with zero MOA, put it in a 20 to 40moa mount to get the max out of it.
Element Theos the new turret king...kinda?
I am going to preface this opening statement by saying that I can only find 25 mills of internal elevation in dialing, not sure if the norm is to include stadia in that elevation equation. So glean what you will from that statement. That said here is what I think, IMHO. The Element Theos has...
www.snipershide.com
I have a few gen3 razor(4) and a black Theos. In my opinion the only place the theos is equal or better than the vortex is weight, turrets and reticle. I think the razor glass is more crisp, and the coatings def give it a benefit in heavy mirage conditions.
You just described things that matter to some people a lot more than "clarity". I use Nightforce and USO over zco, tangent, and vortex, specifically because of reticle choice.
I have 5x NF scopes of atacr/nx8 line, a couple tangents, also 3x ZCO, 3x kahles, march and minox zp5. I think I have a general sense of what's what, who's got the best feature set, external tangibles, best glass, yada yada......
The zeiss S3, Theos and Gen3 razor all come from the same pedigree of production. However they're all not equals. All I'm saying!
I was able to decide. Ordered my NF ATACR 7-35x56 to go on my MPA BA PMR Pro 2 in 6.5CM. Can’t wait til they both show up.
@ov3rclock3d Like you I have made my choice. Theos it is. went to the range today and had a hell of a time looking for target holes with my Steiner. A buddy was running an Athlon ares 4.5x30 and to be honest, the calarity was better than the Steiner. I could spot the 22lr holes in the target out to 300yds on white paper mid day. I couldn't see my holes though my scope and there was significant CA.... Makes me almost regret selling my Athlon a few weeks ago. The one thing that really kills the Athlon for me is the way in which you have to set the zero stop. This is the 3rd time we have had to do it to my buddies rifle due to changes in the scope rings and mounting bases. I have the opportunity to get a new G3R for a little over $2k.. if the Theos doesn't work out Ill try it next.
Any scope ring recommendations?
Any scope ring recommendations?
Highly recommend the Area 419 mount over rings, but if you go with rings, can’t go wrong with Seekins. They are the best value in quality rings I feel.
I tried the 12% code on their site and it's nowhere near that price, what am I missing?
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