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Rifle Scopes Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

G

goldeneagle76

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 17, 2010
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Delaware
#1
Decided I am going to go with FFP scope. Is there any reason <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> to go with the Vortex Viper PST Rifle Scope 6-24x50 FFP over the Leupy 6.5-20x50 Mark4 ER/T FFP scope?
Vortex is mil/mil and about 1/2 the price ($899 vs $1699)...how does the glass compare on the two of them through the different magnifications? Also, is the EBR-1 Mil reticle as good/better than a plain ole MilDot?
 
#3
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: goldeneagle76</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decided I am going to go with FFP scope. Is there any reason <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> to go with the Vortex Viper PST Rifle Scope 6-24x50 FFP over the Leupy 6.5-20x50 Mark4 ER/T FFP scope?
Vortex is mil/mil and about 1/2 the price ($899 vs $1699)...how does the glass compare on the two of them through the different magnifications? Also, is the EBR-1 Mil reticle as good/better than a plain ole MilDot? </div></div>

No one really knows yet how they compare optically as the PST production scopes have not been in the hands of consumers yet. The EBR reticle is an improvment over a standard mil-dot reticle and well suited for the higher magnification scopes like the 6-24.

Voertex Cons
1. 100% new to market (first production run)
2. Made in Philippines
3. Company itself is relatively new to scopes

Vortex Pros
1. Excellent track record so far
2. Bullet proof warranty
3. A lot less money compared to the Leupold
4. Illuminated reticle
5. EBR-1 reticle
6. Mil-Mil
7. 4x erector


Leupold Cons
1. Over priced
2. Leupold's QC appears to have slipped a little lately

Leupold Pros
1. Long history and deep pockets for development
2. Industry leading customer service and warranty
3. Mark 4 legacy of durability / battle proven
4. Mil-Mil


Vortex PST

Leupold Mark 4 ER/T
 
#4
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

goldeneagle,

I have nothing but respect for Vortex Optics. For all appearances they are an up and coming company, that listens to what shooters want and are working hard to develop new products, and are gaining a fine reputation for excellent customer service.

Vortex's new Razor 5-25x50mm seems to have the features and durability to compete with the very best in Tactical scopes, and at a slightly lower price point to boot.

Now mere months after they have released their new flagship scope the Razor, they have announced that they will release their new PST line w/FFP MIL/MIL, Illumination, and a zero stop of sorts, for a full $1100. to $1200 below the Razor's price point.

So from reports they are going to release a scope that is 80-85% of what the Razor is, at 55% less money. Call me jaded, but something does not compute.

Vortex is either cutting the legs out from under the Razor completely, or the PST line is being over sold, as to it's price/performance ratio. Or the PST line may really be the great thing since pre-sliced bread

As Cost Accountant by education, I ponder the how's and why's, over timing and price points selected with the PST's release, and how they can deliver seemingly so much in features, for so little in dollars.

As a shooter, and usually limited as to discretionary spending, I hope that Vortex can fully deliver on the PST's promise, and that they are as good as they appear to be.

But there are enough red flags to keep me from becoming a PST test dummy, at this point in time. So I will wait a few months till after the PST release, and hope that I am totally wrong.

For me, I am going to look, before I leap headfirst on to the PST bandwagon.

As far a Leupold goes, no comments, as I usually have nothing good to say about the boys in Beaverton....

IMHO, and YMMV...



 
#5
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SWFA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: goldeneagle76</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Decided I am going to go with FFP scope. Is there any reason <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> to go with the Vortex Viper PST Rifle Scope 6-24x50 FFP over the Leupy 6.5-20x50 Mark4 ER/T FFP scope?
Vortex is mil/mil and about 1/2 the price ($899 vs $1699)...how does the glass compare on the two of them through the different magnifications? Also, is the EBR-1 Mil reticle as good/better than a plain ole MilDot? </div></div>

No one really knows yet how they compare optically as the PST production scopes have not been in the hands of consumers yet. The EBR reticle is an improvment over a standard mil-dot reticle and well suited for the higher magnification scopes like the 6-24.

Voertex Cons
1. 100% new to market (first production run)
2. Made in Philippines
3. Company itself is relatively new to scopes

Vortex Pros
1. Excellent track record so far
2. Bullet proof warranty
3. A lot less money compared to the Leupold
4. Illuminated reticle
5. EBR-1 reticle
6. Mil-Mil
7. 4x erector


Leupold Cons
1. Over priced
2. Leupold's QC appears to have slipped a little lately

Leupold Pros
1. Long history and deep pockets for development
2. Industry leading customer service and warranty
3. Mark 4 legacy of durability / battle proven
4. Mil-Mil


Vortex PST

Leupold Mark 4 ER/T
</div></div>

I did not realize that the Leupold was MiL/Mil???
 
#8
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

PSTs coming from the Philippines?

Does anything good (optically) come from the Philippines? not trying to start something, just don't keep close track on who builds what where.
 
#9
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rancid Coolaid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PSTs coming from the Philippines?

Does anything good (optically) come from the Philippines? not trying to start something, just don't keep close track on who builds what where. </div></div>

From another thread on OpticsTalk:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These will be made in the Philippines with the glass coming from Japan. This is a very high tech factory that is capable of making very high quality scopes.
</div></div>

My thinking is pretty much in line with BobinNC on this one. I really hope they pan out, but I'm going to wait a couple months at least after they start being released. If they prove to be everything they claim to be, and reliable, then I'll be in for at least a couple...
 
#10
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rancid Coolaid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PSTs coming from the Philippines?

Does anything good (optically) come from the Philippines? not trying to start something, just don't keep close track on who builds what where. </div></div>

Filipino Simmons scopes were the best Simmons put out, but that's all I've had my hands on. Only example that comes to my mind.....
 
#11
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?


I've been listening to swat and military snipers complain about Leupold for 10 or 15 years. Turrets that were too coarse in adjustment (M2) or too fine (M1). Turrets that didn't correspond with the reticle (mildot reticle and MOA turrets) They sat on their ass and lived off their name until they lost much of their reputation and market and suddenly had major competition from all directions. They had their heads in the clouds for years and were totally out of touch. I am glad they are finally making some changes. At one time that 3.5-10 FFP was the only game in town and you could send it to Premier reticles and have some changes made and have a awesome scope....for those days anyway.
smile.gif


...and not trying to start a pissing match.
 
#12
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Filipino Simmons scopes were the best Simmons put out, but that's all I've had my hands on. Only example that comes to my mind..... </div></div>

That is actually when Simmons started their downhill slide, Japan Simmons were much better. After Simmons sold the first time to investment bankers they ruined the line and it just got worse every time they sold. They are stable now that Bushnell owns them but will never be what they were when they offered the Presidential series, Original 44-Mag and original Aetecs.
 
#13
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rancid Coolaid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PSTs coming from the Philippines?

Does anything good (optically) come from the Philippines? not trying to start something, just don't keep close track on who builds what where. </div></div>

I think most Nikon stuff is made in the phillipines and they aren't bad. I have a buckmasters and monarch that both say "Phillipines" either on them or in the manual and they are fine scopes for the money. If the PST scopes have that same sort of glass along with all the features they are listing - and they don't turn out to be lemons - they will be incredible scopes for the money.
 
#14
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJBello</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rancid Coolaid</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PSTs coming from the Philippines?

Does anything good (optically) come from the Philippines? not trying to start something, just don't keep close track on who builds what where. </div></div>

From another thread on OpticsTalk:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sam@Vortex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
These will be made in the Philippines with the glass coming from Japan. This is a very high tech factory that is capable of making very high quality scopes.
</div></div>

My thinking is pretty much in line with BobinNC on this one. I really hope they pan out, but I'm going to wait a couple months at least after they start being released. If they prove to be everything they claim to be, and reliable, then I'll be in for at least a couple...
</div></div>

I'm with you. For an "on paper only" scope, these new PSTs sure have a huge following. Methinks some koolaid has been dispensed and drunk.

They might turn out to be good, and they may turn out to be junk, though they will most likely turn out to be a good scope that fills a price category niche. Either way, I've seen so many suggestions to "wait for the PST" when someone is asking about buying a scope now, I can't help but believe that Vortex's marketing is brilliant. Perhaps even better than their scopes.

I'll wait until actual reviews come in and not just a bunch of guys who <span style="font-style: italic">might</span> have looked through one at SHOT, though more likely guys who have seen nothing more than some numbers on a piece of paper, before I make my decision.
 
#15
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupold Mark ER/T4 FFP?

I don't think it's their marketing as much as it is the experiences that people have had with Vortex thus far. Not only do they build a great product but when something does go wrong with one of their products they have been more than willing to bend over backwards to make sure the customer is satisfied. Plus they really seem to be listening to the shooting community as to what they want in optics and are really attempting to deliver that product at a reasonable price. I expect nothing but great things from the PST and from Vortex!
 
#16
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But there are enough red flags to keep me from becoming a PST test dummy, at this point in time. So I will wait a few months till after the PST release, and hope that I am totally wrong.
</div></div>
Are these "red flags" actual shortcomings you have seen with these scopes or are they just in your head?
Well begun is half done.
Wouldn't being "jaded" with imaginary red flags interfere with the ability to make objective assessments? Some might disagree.
These subjective mental barriers didn't do anything for me.
To each his own...and I mean that.
Just because I don't totally agree with everything BobinNC says in this post, I still value his opinion and he just may end up being right, but I hope he's wrong too.
 
#18
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But there are enough red flags to keep me from becoming a PST test dummy, at this point in time. So I will wait a few months till after the PST release, and hope that I am totally wrong.
</div></div>
Are these "red flags" actual shortcomings you have seen with these scopes or are they just in your head?
Well begun is half done.
Wouldn't being "jaded" with imaginary red flags interfere with the ability to make objective assessments? Some might disagree.
These subjective mental barriers didn't do anything for me.
To each his own...and I mean that.
Just because I don't totally agree with everything BobinNC says in this post, I still value his opinion and he just may end up being right, but I hope he's wrong too. </div></div>

jeffersonv,

No actual shortcomings noted, it's just all in my head. So I shared out loud, my thoughts. I'm not soliciting agreement for my view, nor have I said no one should buy or pre-order a Vortex PST.

And no I'm not being jaded, just prudent. I carefully explained my reasons, and my hesitation. I really do hope Vortex succeeds. A full line of FFP Illuminated MIL/MIL scopes under $1k, from a company strong in Customer Support, is very attractive.

But my position is with new product lines; that represent cutting edge technology; and require advance manufacturing capabilities; and are reported as being built in a 3rd world country that has had a less than stellar track record for optical excellence in any capacity; is to wait a bit before buying.

That way I only lose some time, rather than some money.

Other folks view things differently, and that's more than OK by me.

Thanks,

Bob
 
#20
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeffersonv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup, I can respect that and you're not alone.
Hopefully Vortex has done thier homework.

Jeff </div></div>

I'm far less suspect of Vortex's ability to make a good product than I am of people's willingness to suggest it above all others in its price range despite never having seen one.
 
#22
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm far less suspect of Vortex's ability to make a good product than I am of people's willingness to suggest it above all others in its price range despite never having seen one. </div></div>

I too hope it is a good scope for the money, but am way too broke to risk being a beta tester.

Back to the original posted question-
Personally if I had cash for a MK4 ER/T FFP I'd be trying to get a little more and get a NF F1. <span style="font-style: italic">If</span> the PST's were out and proving themselves solid I'd opt for one and money to buy or make ammo before getting a MK4.....
 
#23
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm far less suspect of Vortex's ability to make a good product than I am of people's willingness to suggest it above all others in its price range despite never having seen one. </div></div>

I too hope it is a good scope for the money, but am way too broke to risk being a beta tester.

Back to the original posted question-
Personally if I had cash for a MK4 ER/T FFP I'd be trying to get a little more and get a NF F1. <span style="font-style: italic">If</span> the PST's were out and proving themselves solid I'd opt for one and money to buy or make ammo before getting a MK4..... </div></div>

unfortunatly an F1 is $600 more than an ER/T FFP.
 
#25
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

Ya know, I've never thought of that! I've seen reps from NF, USO, Vortex, and Millett on here but I've never seen a single person from Leupold on here!
 
#26
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

I have not owned a single Vortex product, but I will soon because their customer service is excellent. If you use shit, it eventually breaks.
 
#27
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

I can't wait until these come out. I recently picked up a Razor HD, and am looking forward to picking up a PST for my fiance's .308 rifle.
 
#28
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

There was a tech from Leupold that posted here for a while a <span style="font-style: italic">long long </span>time ago.
He probably got fired for giving out correct and consistent information.........

I'm seriously thinking of trying out a PST FFP 6.5-20.........
 
#29
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

I'm still trying to learn how to properly mil using a mil/mil system since I'm just starting out and I honestly cannot wait for the Viper PST's because I can spend half of what I would on a Leupold MK4 LR/T TMR and get the same result.

I'm not military/leo so there's really no practical reason (like practicality even exists around here LOL) for me to own a scope that I'm not using for it's intended use. I can spend half of what the Leupold is and put the rest of the money toward rings and a mount and getting my rifle bedded and trigger modded.

I just hope the Viper PST is everything that's being hyped about it because I'm putting all my faith in something that isn't yet out and wont be able to afford another scope this year thanks to our wonderful economy.
 
#30
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

where are the current viper scopes being manufactured BTW? Have vortex always made their stuff in the philipines, or is the PST the first line of scopes to be made there?
 
#32
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The current Vipers are made in the Philippines and are very good quality for the price, so this won't be anything new for the PST's. </div></div>This is correct. The current Vipers and PST's use glass from Japan and are manufactured in the Philippines.
 
#33
Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP vs Leupole Mark ER/T4 FFP?

I know it's an old post.
There is another factor that makes this post interesting for me.

These 2 scopes are nearly the same weight.

High optics prices are always going to be a consideration, but am I the only one that sees most of these high dollar scopes as freaking barbells?
I am starting to see some trying to cut the weight of their rifles by cutting down the barrels etc.
If I can get a good performing scope and shave a half pound, that interests me.
I see these 2 scopes as contenders to do just that.
 
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