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Vudoo V22 action vs Zermatt Arms RIMX
- Thread starter Tango down
- Start date
I've used a BnA tacsport pro and the new TT 2 stage and like the TT better on my vudoo. I have the gen 1 fire control. The BnA was great and I had no complaints but the timing is slightly better with the TT... and I needed a trigger for my Lone peak anyways.
No, and it was not designed for that purpose.
I really appreciate that sometimes the CEO of the company chime in on a small matters and take time to drop some answer from time to time to the quarry. If i have enough budget i will go to orcan rim-x and let him build my rifle barrel/action/trigger of my choice and wallaah...."HEADACHE FREE".Just like getting vudoo action/barrel dbm. OOooppss folks this is just my 1cent' opinion. Don't have those kind of budget for now maybe sooner ahehe!
However, it must be said that a Vudoo V22 can be shot either as a repeater or a single shot. Changing from one to the other requires five minutes. Simple. I use two stocks, a Manners PRS1 for repeater shooting and a GRS Sporter with Sunny Hill BDL for single shot.
Of course, this modularity may or may not be significant for your purposes.
There is some truth to this statement. The Rimx's built by some are great rifles. No feed issues, shoot like a house on fire. I've met 4 people first hand who had issues with their Rimx rifle from their builder and really struggled to get the support needed to overcome their issues.
So while it's true, it is largely a builder problem, that is an overall issue with the platform. The consumer has to worry about whether or not his builder is capable of putting together a sound product.
We completely understand that this is the case. We went a different route in our design to create a simplified barrel tenon that wouldn't require timing the barrel to the action. This way, a barrel can be bought without the action leaving your bench. That follows our center fire action model and will continue to be something we strive to do as we've had success with that intention.
If you're looking for an action to do both single shot work and repeater work, the RimX isn't the product for you. That's the beauty of the market we operate in; there's almost always a product that will meet your needs or desires.
Of those 4 people you had experience with, did they all have the same builder or did they have different builders?
That's not a question intended to air out any grievances with specific builder(s), just a general question.
Just like every other custom rifle built... ever.
The smiths that aren't good at building on RimX's, aren't good at centerfires either... its just with a centerfire you can get away with it. Rimfires are significantly more particular and do not forgive shoddy craftsmanship. That's not a problem with the platform. That's a problem with unqualified people building things they should not be building, and charging people for it. Then, due to fanboy'ism, the truth about those outfits is never told, lest the teller be shouted into oblivion... and then even more people get suckered into those same problems. I've seen the same thing happen over and over again for 20 years on this forum and many others.
I have never once recommended that someone collect a bunch of centerfire parts and "assemble it" themselves. Ever. I have never once recommended someone do that with a rimfire either, and I never will. Rifle building should be left to the people that have made a reputation of perfection. That is why we partnered to provide TS Customs built RimX's exclusively. Travis is a perfectionist, and would never allow his reputation to be damaged by rushed or substandard work. Then, before we sell them to a customer, each rifle is personally vetted by me with a minimum of 250rnds of live fire. Feeding, extraction, ejection must be flawless and the accuracy/precision with multiple lot numbers is shared with the customer before the rifle is ever sent. That is after an exhaustive parts selection and build process. Even further qualification can be made, to include lot testing and case lots of ammo being provided with the rifle. The idea being, a customer that buys a RimX from Primal Rights is not left with questions and uncertainty. They know exactly what they are getting. This all starts at around $4000 and includes proprietary TS Customs cheek hardware, custom inlet and world-class TS Customs bed job in a tricked-out McMillan stock in the A3A, A6, A6PRS, or A10 class, all with sniper fill to ensure the most predictable platform possible. Same kind of price and components you'd expect from a high end centerfire custom build.
Here's a 30" Benchmark MTU with EC Tuner in a McM A10 with flush cups and full length arca that is presently being tested. Once testing is complete, it will be offered for sale. Early results are promising, considering it was fired in a 17°f 15-20mph condition.
I have no doubt you're selling a quality product that is absolutely top notch.
This thread is about the V22 platform vs the Rimx platform. The issue I'm pointing out is unless a guy has spent a bunch of time lurking on the Hide here, he's playing the lottery on whether or not his builder can produce a Rimx up to snuff and the customer may not get good support dealing with his issues. The problem is there is not a uniform Rimx experience. With the V22 the rifle is either right, or the people at VGW will bend over backwards to solve the issue. Period. There is no "well if you get a Vudoo direct for sure it will be right, but if you get one from XYZ it might be crap because they don't know what they're doing and you may or may not get help." The Vudoo is a great product with even greater support, regardless of where it was purchased.
Make no mistake, Vudoo had some growing pains too. I have one. Agreed, their customer support sets the bar high.
I have no hesitation in saying Zermatt will match it. Great customer service
I have no hesitation in saying Zermatt will match it. Great customer service
There's an implication here that we don't offer that level of service. If you've experienced less than stellar support from us and our product, we'd love to know so it can be addressed. We strive to be the best in every aspect at what we do and if you or someone you know isn't receiving the best, please let us know.
I bought a pre-fit and you helped. I then bought a barrel blank and made one myself. You helped with that, too. All help was provided immediately with no waiting. Stellar support.
Actually, if it may be helpful, I don't read that he's implying that Zermatt doesn't offer exemplary service....I've experienced your level of service myself with centerfire actions. The way I read what he's pointing out is, the builder plays a big part in how Zermatt is represented, which is no different than what Orkan is saying.
MB
We see that from where you sit, but from where we sit, the comment below sure seems to have some implication that we would leave our customer high and dry if they get our product somewhere other than directly through us.
"With the V22 the rifle is either right, or the people at VGW will bend over backwards to solve the issue. Period. There is no "well if you get a Vudoo direct for sure it will be right, but if you get one from XYZ it might be crap because they don't know what they're doing and you may or may not get help.""
If we're misunderstanding the intent, we apologize for that. No harm done.
Your customer service reputation is outstanding, and we strive for that as well. We just want to make sure that we're providing the same levels of outstanding customer service that people deserve when they choose us to build their actions. We have to hope that the builders that choose to use our products will do the same and represent us and themselves exceptionally well. If we see that's not happening, rest assured that we address those situations. We just do so privately to respect everyone involved.
Understood and I get the sensitivity to the matter as it's what's required to be as responsive as possible....makes perfect sense. Also, I appreciate and am humbled by your comments regarding our CS; we take what we're doing seriously and we're quite protective of the community that supports what we do. As I mentioned, I've seen this from Zermatt as well as have many others on this site and elsewhere....
MB
One of my friends won a RimX cert at the local match and put an order for a RimX. He is budget concious so the $4000 custom rifle isn't going to work. I had assumed prefit, meant prefit. I have had multiple prefits for the TL3, never seen any real issues, reputable barrel maker, Keystone, Straight Jacket, I got the prefit, torqued it on, and no issues.
The RimX barrel is also a prefit, yet somehow barrel makers are having a lot of issues. So I'm not sure who to recommend now for a prefit for the RimX. I've seen a few Proofs in the wild that seem to just work, though I think they might just be using a Bentz chamber?
Keystone was the big group buy that it seems quite a few people are struggling with getting working.
Where would you go for a prefit for a RimX that isn't going to break the bank?
The RimX barrel is also a prefit, yet somehow barrel makers are having a lot of issues. So I'm not sure who to recommend now for a prefit for the RimX. I've seen a few Proofs in the wild that seem to just work, though I think they might just be using a Bentz chamber?
Keystone was the big group buy that it seems quite a few people are struggling with getting working.
Where would you go for a prefit for a RimX that isn't going to break the bank?
This is a very valid question that is answered relatively easily. But you have to narrow it down a little more: what is "breaking the bank" to that individual?
Finished steel barrels typically run between $450 and $800 with carbon fiber barrels being an exception.
Our pre-fit barrels start at $800, and you won't find anyone here complaining about issues with them. Though I never recommend them. I also never recommend only barreled actions. We'll sell them, but I make it very clear to EVERY customer exactly what can occur. They either take responsibility for those variables, or I will completely refuse the sale.
Again, it's not "pre-fit" that's the issue. It's who is doing the pre-fit that matters. Obviously there may be some tuning and various considerations people will have to deal with when buying "parts" as opposed to a complete rifle, but that comes with the territory. I have that discussion at length with any customer that is thinking of going the barrel or barreled action route. I make it explicitly clear what we can take responsibility for, as well as what we can't. I'd much rather sell a complete rifle, because then I can rest easy knowing everything that could have been done to ensure satisfaction, was done. It's impossible to ensure this when a non-complete rifle is headed out the door. There will always be variables induced by the customer, whom will have wildly varying levels of experience and expertise. One thing that is a commonality which creates many problems is the fact that the vast majority of people rate their expertise significantly higher than it actually is... yet they have no way of knowing that due to the simple fact that one cannot know what one does not know.
Another thing to understand is that I have zero expectation that a "chassis" rifle assembled from parts will consistently perform as well as a full build composite McMillan the way we do them. A lot of people went the budget route, and now, very predictably, they are being bitten by issues. I would strongly suggest people consider the poor logic of saving $200-$500 on something that already costs on the plus side of $3000 no matter which way you go. The world works in very specific ways when it comes to value perceived versus actual cost of ownership. Lets not also forget about the psychological ramifications to the shooter and their ability to perform when they start out having issues with a set of parts. Some people will never mentally recover from that, and will question the capability of that rifle until it is replaced totally.
As usual, there is more going on with these rifles than can possibly be put to text here. Serious inquiries can call and talk with me. Though if you're expecting rock bottom prices to accompany the stellar level of service we provide... you'll be disappointed in a quick hurry.
Again, it's not "pre-fit" that's the issue. It's who is doing the pre-fit that matters. Obviously there may be some tuning and various considerations people will have to deal with when buying "parts" as opposed to a complete rifle, but that comes with the territory. I have that discussion at length with any customer that is thinking of going the barrel or barreled action route. I make it explicitly clear what we can take responsibility for, as well as what we can't. I'd much rather sell a complete rifle, because then I can rest easy knowing everything that could have been done to ensure satisfaction, was done. It's impossible to ensure this when a non-complete rifle is headed out the door. There will always be variables induced by the customer, whom will have wildly varying levels of experience and expertise. One thing that is a commonality which creates many problems is the fact that the vast majority of people rate their expertise significantly higher than it actually is... yet they have no way of knowing that due to the simple fact that one cannot know what one does not know.
Another thing to understand is that I have zero expectation that a "chassis" rifle assembled from parts will consistently perform as well as a full build composite McMillan the way we do them. A lot of people went the budget route, and now, very predictably, they are being bitten by issues. I would strongly suggest people consider the poor logic of saving $200-$500 on something that already costs on the plus side of $3000 no matter which way you go. The world works in very specific ways when it comes to value perceived versus actual cost of ownership. Lets not also forget about the psychological ramifications to the shooter and their ability to perform when they start out having issues with a set of parts. Some people will never mentally recover from that, and will question the capability of that rifle until it is replaced totally.
As usual, there is more going on with these rifles than can possibly be put to text here. Serious inquiries can call and talk with me. Though if you're expecting rock bottom prices to accompany the stellar level of service we provide... you'll be disappointed in a quick hurry.
It wasn't meant as a knock against Zermatt or your service by any means. I have two Origins and love them. Had a great experience with your service when the first one wouldn't work with my Timney two-stage trigger I put in it.
But if a guy has a Rimx built and accuracy is poor or he's having failure to fires or feed issues, where does he go? Back to the builder. That builder may or may not offer the same level of service. And it does introduce the quandary of who is on the hook for making sure the end product is right.
So yes, as was pointed out, it really is a builder issue BUT how does a guy know which builder is making Rimx's up to snuff and which ones aren't?
The Rimx IS a fan-flipping-tastic platform when it is done right. There is just too much variable for my taste in who is building it, whether they'll build it right, and if they'll stand behind their work.
It's always been this way with customs of any kind. That's why choosing a builder is so important! Sad to say, there are more poor ones out there than really good ones.
Sorry, missed this. All 4 from one otherwise reputable (centerfire) builder who wasn't terribly helpful with some of the issues.
I understand this clearer now. Thanks for expanding on the statement.
We want everyone to know that, no matter the problem, if you are having issues with something that involves our product in ANY way, we want you to feel comfortable reaching out to us for either servicing the issue or advice on servicing the issue. We've been happy to help make it right with a lot of different issues since we've been in business here in Nebraska and we'll continue to do that.
If you're interested in the action but afraid of the potential for issues, please understand that we're willing to help in EVERY situation, not just problems with our products exclusively.
If you don't mind, would you send us a direct message to let us know who that is? If you're not comfortable with that, we respect that as well. There's always a chance we can get in touch with that builder to see what may be going on and offer some advice to clear up issues.
Thank you!
$450-800 is about the range I'd expect... though for a rimfire prefit I'd expect it more generally in the $450-600 range. I know for rimfire in the past generally they float around the 300-450 for nice match barrels for Tikka T1X's, CZ's, although the barrel tenon is smaller so there's more steel req on these Vudoo/RimX barrels.
My main concern is I wouldn't consider Keystone to be a bad company as their centerfire barrels shoot well, but a large amount of the complaints I have heard with feeding issues were around the Keystone group buy. JBell I wouldn't consider someone who has no idea how to handle/configure his rifle but the amount of chamfering and configuration req seems a bit daunting for anyone else.
The whole point of prefit, not having to time things would be I just torque it on to the 80 ft lbs and it should work like my centerfires... so the amount of work people are having to do is suprising. If there's a known prefit / company that just works I'd love to know.
PrimalRights/TSCustoms prefit for $800 is a bit high. Also don't know why the advise against ordering a BA or a Prefit, the whole point of Prefits is to work... never had issues with CF rifles.
From what little I have learned about the Rim fire stuff, Ammo issues, different Reamers for different applications semi auto vs bolt vs Bench rest. The chamber is probably the most critical for the RimX to function correctly. Not that they won't work with all, just better with some. It'll get sorted out soon enough and there won't be any Vudoo involved (no pun intended). Pre-fits will be easy with the correct chamber.
I have seen vids of that fella shooting and he leaves me in awe for his shooting as well as his total lack of self-pity and his wonderfully positive attitude. Truly inspiring and humbling.
and yes, he seemed to be able to easily cycle your bolt with his feet with absolutely no problems.
thanks for posting.
Centerfires are much more forgiving to build than rimfires. Soft lead bullets (instead of jacketed), a tiny powder load, plus the amount of the total charge the primer makes up all lend to a very delicate system for the rimfire.
With all of that information, you could go a handful of different routes.
PROOF Research (steel) - $365
PROOF Research (carbon fiber) - $470
Lothar-Walther - $400
Benchmark - $620 (couldn't find information on their site, but we were quoted this price 4/15/2020)
This was just a quick look at barrel manufacturers that are offering complete, pre-fit barrels. There are surely more small shops across the country offering these barrels with different blanks at different prices, you'd just have to look into those options.
Ray thank you for your help on my problematic bolt that has a lot of issues, you send me a "COMPLETE BOLT FACE ASSEMBLY" even though i don't ask for it but humbly ask me to sent it anyway. I just received the complete bolt face assembly just now and install it to my problematic bolt and i avaible to run 20 shots without a problem WOW! WOW! SMOOTH,FLAWLESS,SPOTLESS,work like a charm now.Again thank you Ray!
Thanks. I wonder if all these issues is just a bad batch from Keystone's chamering/cutting. I have another friend with a Proof and he has had no issues with it.
Are the manufacturing tolerances of Vuddo receivers tight enough and CNC machining accurate enough that a standard "pre-fit" barrel would fit any Vudoo receiver? If not, for an individual Vudoo receiver could the relevant measurements be made and a barrel blank machined into a "pre-fit" barrel for that receiver? Then the individual measurements could be kept on file.
Could well be my ignorance on the subject, but seems to me the big deal in machining exactor slots is the positioning of the slots. If the position could be programmed into a CNC machine, would the cost of a "pre-fit" barrel with exactor slots be that different from a "pre-fit" barrel without extractor slots?
On anothering machining topic, is it more difficult to make a radial edge than a chamfered edge? Seems a radial edge is greatly to be desired.
Could well be my ignorance on the subject, but seems to me the big deal in machining exactor slots is the positioning of the slots. If the position could be programmed into a CNC machine, would the cost of a "pre-fit" barrel with exactor slots be that different from a "pre-fit" barrel without extractor slots?
On anothering machining topic, is it more difficult to make a radial edge than a chamfered edge? Seems a radial edge is greatly to be desired.
Pre-fit for a receiver that requires extractor cuts would require keeping a database of an extremely precise series of measurements for every receiver produced. I wouldn't consider it a realistic goal. If pre-fit is what someone is after, then the RimX would be a better choice.
The short answer is, "yes." All of my personal V-22s and those belonging to friends and team shooters have "pre-fits." Extractor cuts truly have no bearing on whether a pre-fit is possible and there's no need to keep a "database" on every receiver. However, my personal philosophy is, "pre-fit" on a rimfire is a misnomer. And yes, we machine extractor cuts in a CNC via the fourth axis. The reason we don't sell rimfire actions to more than a couple chosen guys is because of exactly what people are seeing with variation....it has nothing to do with extractor cuts.
When I started down this path, it was quickly evident that to achieve successful, consistent results, all variables had to be controlled, so everything that has anything to do with consistent performance had to originate as part of the design and manufacturing process....Everything. Our model is to build barreled actions and complete rifles because we work to control what is a consistent outcome. In the long run, this allows us to focus on one thing....the end user. Some of you would be floored by the number of barreled actions/rifles we've received back that have been re-barreled by "big name" "smith's" that had no idea how to properly barrel a V-22 and told the customer there was something wrong with the action. So, we don't sell actions and we won't offer "pre-fits."
Edit to add:
Furthermore, extractor cuts are either easy or ridiculously easy. However, one has to have the understanding that in a V-22, the cut is not a clearance cut, but instead, the cut is part of what makes extraction reliable by timing the proper opening and closing of the extractors. More often than not, one assumes all he/she has to do is slice into the breech some distance and all will be right in rimfire world, but this isn't how it works. The cuts are an Engineered feature, meaning, they have a very specific radius and all one has to do is hit the numbers. It's easy via a manual mill and ridiculously easy via CNC.
MB
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Not taking a dig at Zermatt Rim X or any other platform but based on a long time of doing this rimfire thing and owning and having to "fix" some aspect of damn near every platform except the V-22 barreled actions and complete builds (of which I am up to 5 now) is exactly why I am only shooting that product right now and in the foreseeable future. It's also the reason I am 100% comfortable with spending my money (of which I don't have excess of, I'm a diesel mechanic) without concern that it will perform to my expectations.
Again I am only saying this due to the theme of this thread.
Yessir, understood....the greater of the limitations are further downstream of CNC capabilities, etc.
MB
Well to complete the statement I started earlier. I have the 2nd of the 2 Vudoo barreled actions in and had a minute to go zero it today and see how it functioned. This one is in a Manners with the mini chassis and a T7T trigger. It functioned perfect with no issues at all. Testing for feeding and bullet damage I experienced the same results as the last one, not even a mark on the bullet other than the lands.
I only put 50 rounds through it today because it was pretty damn windy and most of that was offhand at steel at 100 yards. This configuration balances very nice offhand!
Here is the initial 10 round group at 50 yards shot #2-#11 through the rifle. I shot it very fast as the wind all but dropped after I made the first round zero adjustments:
This target measured 0.223" CTC. As a reminder the other barreled action I got this month round #2-#11 measured slightly larger but still in the mid to high 0.2XX" range (target inner circle is 0.500"):
So based on these 2 rifles and the 3-4 others I have either owned or in my family Vudoo has been extremely consistent.
Here are the current two Vudoos (they are for my daughters):
I only put 50 rounds through it today because it was pretty damn windy and most of that was offhand at steel at 100 yards. This configuration balances very nice offhand!
Here is the initial 10 round group at 50 yards shot #2-#11 through the rifle. I shot it very fast as the wind all but dropped after I made the first round zero adjustments:
This target measured 0.223" CTC. As a reminder the other barreled action I got this month round #2-#11 measured slightly larger but still in the mid to high 0.2XX" range (target inner circle is 0.500"):
So based on these 2 rifles and the 3-4 others I have either owned or in my family Vudoo has been extremely consistent.
Here are the current two Vudoos (they are for my daughters):
I saw a few pages back someone say polymer mags can be an issue or wear out . Well I now have 20k + rounds with a single vudoo mag.
4k rounds in the last month or so. I shoot on average 250 rounds per range trip weather permitting. Usually 5 trips a week
I bought 2 mags when I built my voodoo last year so i would have a spare.
Looks like i may not need a spare.
I ran 50 rounds with my spare to check function and then put it away.
I shoot mostly cci sv.
I have run 5 k or so of sk standard
4k rounds in the last month or so. I shoot on average 250 rounds per range trip weather permitting. Usually 5 trips a week
I bought 2 mags when I built my voodoo last year so i would have a spare.
Looks like i may not need a spare.
I ran 50 rounds with my spare to check function and then put it away.
I shoot mostly cci sv.
I have run 5 k or so of sk standard
You have some lucky kids. Nice shooting.
Thank you, but I am the lucky one as I quite possibly have the best daughters (they are not kids anymore
) a person could have!
The RimX is steel and nitrided with a DLC bolt head.the magazines are billet aluminum..
The vudoo is steel to, not positive on coatings but believe nitrided as well
The Vudoo receiver is stainless and galling is avoided by using a dissimilar material for the bolt body. All parts are Cerakoted now, I moved away from Nitride.
MB
