We didn't learn a goddamn thing

sandwarrior

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,611
2,220
in yooperland
#1
So, I open one of the military/gun news magazines subscriptions I get and what do I see:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ar...oking-7-62-nato-interim-combat-service-rifle/

So what the fuck??? Has no one in the military seen their choice of cartridge lags far behind what's out there? What's wrong with the M-14's we have? Are they worn out? Did they not work as intended from the get-go? I wonder how much it would have made a difference if Bush Sr. and Clinton hadn't had 1.5 million of these rifles destroyed during their administrations.

How fucking ignorant is this. To watch a goat-fuck time and again, only to hear some Congressional hearing come out with, "It appears the goat got fucked again, we don't seem to know what happened."
 
#2
The operative word is money, they could care less about you an I. War is about money nothing else, the folks joining & fighting it, are fighting for reasons the "leadership" will never fathom. Troops have been just as expendable as shit house paper, Vietnam proved that. ROE, real people say/said kiss my ass an went on to do the right thing. The reason John K Singlaub was fucked over.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_K._Singlaub
 
#4
Apples and oranges. Phillips and straight. Each caliber and rifle has its own purpose. SBR in 5.56 fro close work, clearing rooms the 7.62 for longer work. Sounds more like a barrel integrity problem with the higher internal pressures.
 
#5
Having a similar discussion via email with members of my rifle club.

Some say only a larger caliber should be considered, some say only a piston gun should be considered.

I say the AR has killed a lot of people.

It offers an already overburdened Marine/soldier some weight savings in gun and ammo.

It needs to be supported, not replaced, with the likes of an M240B.

A big problem with the AR in my opinion was rules of engagement that did not allow the troops to call in the right supporting arms when they were being pot shot at from beyond the range of the AR.

Make the rules of engagement such that when an RPK opens up from some ridge line beyond 500 yards than the radio man fires up air or artillery and smokes the ridge line.

Problem solved.
 
#8
Couple of thoughts from someone who is an observer (no military experience). I have a tool box full of tools, and each one works. But really only for its intended purpose. A hammer makes a shitty wrench. A swiss army knife makes shit out of everything.
wieght is a huge concern so just dumping the 5.56 is not realistic. M1 Garand's and M14 are heavy ass rifles. Not even taking into consideration the ammo.
Trying to make a universal weapon/cartridge is a waste of time/effort. Should have tools for the job.
I would say that this is a case of the military trying to take something from the civilians. In that the AR10 platform has exploded in popularity in the last decade. I am sure they see that and wonder what all the fuss is about.
lastly, Pmclaine i know what you mean, having watched a few Afghanistan/Iraq war engagements i sit there and think "where in the hell is the artillery or air suport". Fighting with one hand tied behind our back is a good way to loose.
 
#9
It's nice to think of the romance of the M14 and Garand....

When guys fielded them they wore no survival gear beyond a steel pot.

Is it right to give up plates for a bigger weapon burden?

Lots of guys back than died from torso wounds guys now live through.
 
#10
thejeep said:
Besides using what they already have. What do you think would be ideal?
Click to expand...

For starters, a more efficient cartridge if you missed my first post. 6.5 CR. .260 REM. 7mm.08...

Secondly what's wrong with all the M110's? They seem to work, but we want the more expensive M14?

Added: What they are wanting to replace is the modified M14's they use as enhanced battle rifles. They are not intending to replace the entire "personal weapon" inventory. But, 50,000 rifles is a lot for something that really isn't all that accurate for distances that need accuracy. An accurized M14 would be fine except we got rid of most of the inventory, and if going back to them need to go out on the civilian market and buy them.
 
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#12
RoterJager said:
I thought there was an article earlier this year saying the .260 Rem, 6.5M and .264 USA were being explored as replacements to 5.56 and 7.62 rifles


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Since 2003, the Grendel has been under consideration. As the Army, Bureau of Ordnance (whoever buys our shit nowdays) see it, the round is not powerful enough to penetrate walls, doors, etc. But, the 7.62 is, so they want to stay with that. The .260 is being used by Spec Ops to good effect. But, that doesn't mean the rest of the military establishment has to like it. So they don't. It has an uphill battle as far as acceptance (not performance...it's been shooting downhill in that regard since it started). The .264 is a magnum, and besides kicking a great deal more, it eats barrels.
 
#15
I've always stated that the Grendel would be the optimal choice to replace the 5.56.
The Grendel doesn't have the power of the .308, but then again it's not meant to, it's the optimal choice to replace 5.56.

As stated above there is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of the M110, it's had some reliability issues in the past but most are due to weapons neglect, and she's a FatGirl at 16lbs. IMO the new M110A2 would answer the call perfectly, especially if KAC started chambering it and 6.5CM. The Scar17 is another option but the accuracy of for shit compared to KAC.



 
#17
bigjake83 said:
I've always stated that the Grendel would be the optimal choice to replace the 5.56.
The Grendel doesn't have the power of the .308, but then again it's not meant to, it's the optimal choice to replace 5.56.

As stated above there is absolutely nothing wrong with the idea of the M110, it's had some reliability issues in the past but most are due to weapons neglect, and she's a FatGirl at 16lbs. IMO the new M110A2 would answer the call perfectly, especially if KAC started chambering it and 6.5CM. The Scar17 is another option but the accuracy of for shit compared to KAC.
Click to expand...

I think you have some great points, Jake. On the other hand part of me thinks the simplest, most cost effective option would be just to run better, heavier grain 5.56 rounds. Some guys on this forum have gotten some pretty respectable results out of the venerable 5.56
 
#19
K-tech said:
I think you have some great points, Jake. On the other hand part of me thinks the simplest, most cost effective option would be just to run better, heavier grain 5.56 rounds. Some guys on this forum have gotten some pretty respectable results out of the venerable 5.56
Click to expand...

The problem with that is you can't go any heavier than the 77gr due to anything heavier then the 77gr SMK isn't compatible MIL SPEC magazine length .... and since we already have 5.56 NATO ammo pushing 77gr SMK at around 2800fps, I would say the 5.56 is at a stalemate. Meanwhile the possibilities of Grendel are just getting good.. and FYI the Government could give two shits about Cost effectiveness as long as we are producing a product that is superior to our competitors.
 
#20
bigjake83 said:
The problem with that is you can't go any heavier than the 77gr due to anything heavier then the 77gr SMK isn't compatible MIL SPEC magazine length .... and since we already have 5.56 NATO ammo pushing 77gr SMK at around 2800fps, I would say the 5.56 is at a stalemate. Meanwhile the possibilities of Grendel are just getting good.. and FYI the Government could give two shits about Cost effectiveness as long as someone is getting rich and we have Generals retiring with millions in the banks.
Click to expand...

Fixed it for ya .
 
#21
K-tech said:
I think you have some great points, Jake. On the other hand part of me thinks the simplest, most cost effective option would be just to run better, heavier grain 5.56 rounds. Some guys on this forum have gotten some pretty respectable results out of the venerable 5.56
Click to expand...

About six or seven years ago, that was the choice that put an end to the 6.5 Grendel as a military round. The MK 262. I'm hearing now, that military AR platforms are having a tough time swallowing full power MK 262 over time. One of the reasons Bill Alexander was adamant about keeping pressures low with the 6.5G. Assuming that would reduce one factor of beating the AR's to death.

FWIW, I have shot Mk 262 and clone ammo out to 1200 in high desert and it remains accurate. Well...as accurate as there is no wind. Any 5.56 wants to drift like a mofo in any wind. And, I haven't seen the beating it gives to AR's. No more so than M193 or M855.

Added: Bigjake makes a good point. The 77gr. is not really a high BC bullet. To get better aerodynamic form you have to reduce weight. A good example is the Berger 70 gr. VLD. A better BC and it's lighter so you can push it faster. But, to use a hybrid/tangent ogive is going to run you into the same problem as the 77. There just isn't enough room in the magazine to accomodate a longer bullet. And, accuracy is an issue when running VLD type bullets through freebore.

Alphatreedog: Funny and true!

More Added: This is an interesting read:
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2941
 
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#22
RoterJager said:
Whatever happened to the exploring the .260 class of bullets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yeah, no shit, the AR in 6.5G is about as good as it gets. Damn near as good as 7.62 in many cases but still fits in small packages. Changes could be made to materials if pressure is an issue and they want to increase it. Saws could be modded for this (they already have a .300BLK barrel). That'd be one round. Then do away with everything up to .338Lapmag for rifles and Normamag for MG's. This is the way things are going due to the increase in proliferation of body armor. They are considering a no-shit Norma Mag chambered MG to replace the 240B with.

But hey, lets keep a program going to replace the M4 FOREVER (it's been going on since before I was born 40 years ago). They said we'd have M8's back when I was in, I never saw a fucking M8 and if one made it on post you can bet your sweet ass I'd have been one of the first to get my grimy fingers on it. Never happened. Lots of upgrading old shit and begging for the M14's stored in warehouses to be issued.
 
#23
But hey, lets keep a program going to replace the M4 FOREVER (it's been going on since before I was born 40 years ago). They said we'd have M8's back when I was in, I never saw a fucking M8 and if one made it on post you can bet your sweet ass I'd have been one of the first to get my grimy fingers on it. Never happened. Lots of upgrading old shit and begging for the M14's stored in warehouses to be issued.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you and I had similar careers...lol

And I was in Quantico Virginia in 05 for small arms and Armory training and I never even heard of a Mk 8 flatform, all I ever saw was Mk4's M16s's with bandages on them..
 
#24
Maggot said:
Apples and oranges. Phillips and straight. Each caliber and rifle has its own purpose. SBR in 5.56 fro close work, clearing rooms the 7.62 for longer work. Sounds more like a barrel integrity problem with the higher internal pressures.
Click to expand...

We never had issues clearing rooms using M14's anywhere on this rock!, May be they need to relearn the tactics that run with the weapon system, instead of trying to make the weapon fit the tactics for some other system?
 
#27
It seems like the 6X45 would be the lowest PIA upgrade in terminal performance, but given that we can't keep half our airplanes in the air or replace 1970s technology I seriously doubt this situation will be fixed.
 
#28
One of the mindsets I feel like I always have to defeat is the "technology-wonder weapon". No shit, back when I was going through Ranger school in the winter of '82-'83 one of the officers going through, a young captain, said that in five to ten years, technology will make it so the individual weapon will be a thing of the past. Fucking Really?!?!?

What I'm seeing today, the individual weapon is more important than ever. Since Korea, we never fought wars on the grand scale to warrant the technology some would have us spend the entire national budget on. And, FWIW, they are damn effective in the right hands. But, one thing I continue to see is people not using their heads when going into battle. We got airpower, artillery and we'll just lay the hammer down on 'em when we get there. Yeah, neither of the former is there when you need them, or they had to return to base for more fuel and re-arm. And they know it and that is when they press the attack. And, it always seems to surprise the fuck out of some S/G-2 and S/G-3 watching the ongoing battle. Afghanistan is a land full of fish barrels. You need to find yourself not in one, expecting "assets" to get you out of them.

We have technology today that can put us right back on par, or better than the range of what we carried in WWII and Korea. A simple fix as little as using a more efficient cartridge.
 
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