Rifle Scopes We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

#451
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Premier are excellent scopes. Love mine.

This is how I see it.

ATI basically saved Premieres ass when Premiere was in trouble.

Liberty sold a bunch of Premiere scopes.

Premier/ATI did not want the scopes discounted below a certain level. Liberty violated the rules set up by Premiere/ATI

Premier/ATI cut of sales of Premiere scopes to Liberty for 90 days to make the point dont sell below a certain level

Liberty said I wont sell at all then.

Thats the end of a business agreement. No more no less.

Really none of my business.

I would hope both companies would go seperate ways and not try to destroy each other. We have enough folks atempting to take out firearms companies without us helping them
 
#452
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASR-Briggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont pretend to know anything about PR's revenue, but I would be surprised if pissing off all of snipershide and similar forums will bankrupt them.
</div></div>

Never underestimate the power of word of mouth. Not only is this an international forum, with people from all nationalities and walks of life, but it's also a 'go to' place for information and opinions on products. I guarantee you that there will be many people either now, or in the future, that will be interested in a high end scope, including a Premier, stumble upon this thread, and have their opinion changed. These are not cheap units a 2-3K a pop. How many changed opinions will it take before it's considered a serious loss of revenue? Just 5 changed opinions is 10K. There's at least 25 in this thread alone, that's 50K as a minimum. Now I don't pretend to be PR's accountant, but who can just shrug that off? And all for the sake of maintaining their image as a high cost brand! </div></div>

Bankrupt no but financially hurt, I'd think so.

In that market a post like this WILL definately hurt their market share.

Think about how many shooters there are here on this forum and how many shooting friends they have.

Now if just 1/10 of the shooters here on the hide ,and their friends who are not members, would have considered Premier for their next purchase and now because of this they will no longer consider them a viable option, they are looseing out on alot of business.

There are 50,000 members here and alot more people that watch these forums that haven't registered yet, I watched and searched these forums for months before I ever made an account.

Remember they don't have that big of a market already and they just cut that down by doing this, this is where people that would have bought their product hang out and shoot the shit so to speak.

Remember the old saying "you don't shit where you eat", well that's what they just did.

Word of mouth is very powerful because you trust your friends and if they are telling you to steer clear of a product then usually you will based off their recomendations/personal experiance.

I was reciently in the market for my first high end scope and I was bouncing between NF, IOR, Vortex PST & Razor, USO, PH etc.

After talking a bit with Scott he had me decided to get a Razor HD.
But then a really good deal came up on a USO SN-3 3.2-17 in the for sale section, I just couldn't pass it up.

Even thought it was out of my price range I decided to go with USO because of their excellent track record with customer service, it was a great deal, & it was pretty much the perfect scope for me.

Another very nice thing about USO, and some others here, are that they make them selves available to you, either over the phone or here on the forums.

That to me this is invaluable.

I will pick a company that takes care of it's customers & vendors over a company that makes a good product but treats their vendors like shit every time.

It shows that they don't have good morals and that they are in it only for the money and not the sport or to help out us customers in these hard times.

O and I was considering a 3-15 Premier when I was looking because of all the good things I'd heard about their glass but I ended up with the USO, glad I did.

After this they just went off my list of brands to consider in the future.

Scott helped me, even though I didn't buy from him, although I was/am going to buy my next scope from him.

He is definately a stand up guy, who shouldn't have been treated like this from a company that he helped out.
 
#453
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Dear Hiders,
My apologies for not responding sooner. Some folks in the industry actually take a break from their day job and try to enjoy the weekend with their families (and Moms). Nevertheless, it is Monday. So back to work.

First, I realize that there won't be much Premier can say here, if anything, now to dissuade peoples' decisions to NOT buy Premier-manufactured , ATI-distributed or GB Stumpp-represented products. I can see how, based on the facts presented by Scott Berish of Liberty Optics, a person would view Premier-ATI-Stumpp as evil and greedy.

Second, it seems that Scott's reputation is beyond reproach. There are always two sides to every story. In this case, one side being the customer-vendor perspective and the other, the legal and economic considerations of a manufacturer-vendor engagement.

I hope my response here meets with the approval of Snipershide and its moderators. We are not currently a vendor or paid advertiser, but we have supported Snipershide since its inception through past advertising and product donation. Though lengthy, this response is necessary to inform the public of the facts surrounding the suspension of Liberty Optics' dealer account.

To begin with, I think it's important to identify the structure of Premier and its affiliates.

Definitions:

1. Premier Reticles, Ltd is a manufacturer of high quality, high performance riflescopes. A 3rd generation, family owned and operated American company, which employs Americans. Chris Thomas is President.

2. Optronika GmbH , located in Biebertal, Germany, is an independent company founded by Chris Thomas in 2007 which employs an opto-mechanical engineering staff, formerly of Schmidt & Bender. All designs for Premier products originate here as well as the sourcing of critical high-precision components used to assemble riflescopes in Winchester, VA. Chris Thomas is President.

3. Armament Technology Incorporated (ATI), a Canadian company located in Halifax, Nova Scotia is an independent company contracted to serve as Master Distributor for North America for Premier Tactical riflescopes. ATI acts as an inventory holding company for which Premier Tactical products are distributed throughout a dealer network. Andrew Webber is President.

4. GB Stumpp and Associates, Inc. is an independent factory representation group engaged by Premier Reticles to solicit and establish storefront retailer (dealer) accounts in the Northeast US territory, for the purposes of stocking and selling Premier products. Terry Dean is President.

In January 2011, GB Stumpp was contracted to establish dealer accounts in the NE US. These factory reps, at their own expense travel state by state, dealer by dealer, informing and educating retailers about the quality and reputation of Premier riflescopes. One of the first questions after "what is my price?" is "do you enforce MAP?". Brick-and-Mortar dealers live by a separate sets of costs vs. certain internet retailers. The must make enough margin in order to: 1) buy and stock the product (customers need to fondle the product), 2) pay employees and 3), pay their overhead costs-just to name a few. Of course, in this day and age the biggest threat to store-front retailers is the internet. Though some consumers choose to purchase products online, the fact remains that store-front retail sales account for the vast majority of riflescope sales-though not yet for Premier, but if internet retailers are not kept in check, your local gun shop with its higher costs of operations WILL go out of business.

In the 3+ months of discussions with potential Premier dealers, the name Liberty Optics came up several times. Terry Dean took it upon himself to not just call Scott for pricing, but also to consummate a purchase. Per the following conversations with Terry, he assured me of his lack of knowledge of Snipershide and that he did NOT mention being a "Hider" in order to get a "good price". On 19-April-2011, Terry simply called and asked for a price for a Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm Tactical and was NOT quoted MAP, but was offered a price substantially lower than MAP. In fact $100s of dollars less. He placed his order immediately and got the scope two days later. Note: This was less than a week after the "stern email" dated 13-April-2011, sent to all Premier dealers admonishing them to avoid such practices. Premier nor ATI had any knowledge of Terry's intentions or actions.

On Friday 29 April 2011, opening day of the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, Terry presented to me his new 5-25x and the Sales Receipt, dated 19-April-2011, from Liberty Optics. Upon receipt of an email copy of this Sales Receipt, ATI contacted Scott via telephone and got the response that the "Terry Dean purchase discount was for a credit against previous purchases...". ATI advises that they have a copy of the bill of sale and there is no credit referenced on it. When pressed to substantiate this credit, Liberty states they need to call back. Upon a call-back, Liberty advises there was no credit, it was sold at the discounted price.

Up until this point, Premier and ATI did not take any action against Liberty Optics as there was no tangible proof that such pricing was happening. After countless discussions, verbal and written agreements, Scott Berish continued to sell scopes at highly discounted prices. Combined with his inability to honor his commitments and agreements, and the reluctance of new dealers taking on the Premier lines of products, Premier and ATI felt it necessary to finally take action. It should realized that the terms of Scott’s dealership status were same terms as all Premier dealers conduct their business under. Premier and/or ATI reserve the right to suspend, and if need be, terminate, dealer status if any of the provisions are violated. This doesn't have as much to do with MAP as it does a legal contract where the undersigned acknowledges the provisions associated with such violations.

Since Scott has been nice enough to share <span style="font-style: italic">excerpts</span> from intercompany documents between ATI and Liberty Optics, and the interdealer communique' , I don't think it's necessary to outline their contents. However, I want to remind the reader that we did NOT terminate the LO's dealer account, we simply "suspended" it. Here I will quote the Suspension Letter verbatim. <span style="color: #FF6666">Red text</span> indicates what was left out of Scott's opening remarks in this thread:

<span style="font-style: italic">"<span style="color: #FF6666">April 29, 2011

Liberty Optics LLC
Attn: Scott Berish
PO Box 2554
900 Riverside Rd
Kalispell MT 59901
U.S.A.</span>

Dear Mr. Berish,

It has been presented to us that your company has been offering Premier Reticles 'Heritage' Tactical riflescopes directly to consumers at pricing significantly below Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).
This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing.<span style="color: #FF6666">As such, it contravenes article 11 of our published Terms as detailed in our 'Distributor Pricing' schedule.</span>
Please therefore be advised that your Dealer Account with Armament Technology Incorporated, sole Master Distributor for the Premier 'Heritage' Tactical line of products, is hereby immediately suspended. <span style="color: #FF6666"> Your current Purchase Orders #5 (dated 21-April-2011) and #6 (dated 26-April-2011) will not be satisfied until such time that payment for both orders plus Liberty's outstanding account balance is received by Armament Technology Incorporated.

At that time, we will arrange shipment of the orders either collect or to your UPS account.
Assuming your outstanding balances are paid within terms, we are willing to review the status of your account in 90 days time.

Regards,

E. J. (Ted) Milner.
Vice President
</span>"</span>
In our opinion, we have given Liberty Optics several chances in the past couple years to adjust his business practices where Premier products are concerned. Premier nor ATI, intended this to embarrass Scott in any way. Scott chose to air these internal communications publicly.

Furthermore, in order for Premier Reticles to stay in business and continue to offer warranty service, we must sell millions of dollars worth of riflescopes. The actions of Liberty Optics or any such offending account, and their refusal to abide by legally binding agreements has forced us to the decision to "suspend" their dealer status. Therefore, to protect the investments of both existing and new dealers, who have signed the same agreements, we must weed out dealers who refuse to play by the rules.

In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles
 
#454
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That said, I think Premier SHOULD involve themselves in this and I think it is ridiculous that Premier has not at least SAID something about this situation and preferably DONE something about it. </div></div>


why should they come in here to this internet drama? the majority here had already made up their minds before the weekend was up.

notice the op hasn't come back in here and answered some very simple questions that very well could clear up things. is everyone here going to assume he also has something to hide since he hasn't responded?
 
#455
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Premier Heritage Riflescopes use to be called Premier Recticle? If this is the same bunch then i would not buy a scope they made anyway because of a smart ass runin i had with them back about 8 yrs ago.

Scott is a good guy, and obviously wants to give good deals to everyone, without being greedy, unlike some.

I have a Vortex PST 6x24x50 FFP ordered threw Liberty Optics, and i will order other optics from Scott in the future.
 
#456
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I think its they way Terry, disguised himself using this forum as cover with the sole intention of setting Scott up for trouble is what I feel many of us have a problem with.

Dont use Snipershide as a means of backstabbing a fellow distributor in the back. esp. on a professional level in which Terry Dean should consider himself.

If there was suspect in Scott violating MAP, then call him up and discuss it like a profesional. Dont hire a damn spy to tattletale on him at the NRA trade show.

This weas my major beef anyway. The Whole Terry Dean part.
 
#457
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny...because all you have heard is one side of things, and take it for fact and truth.

I think I will wait around for page 20 and get the whole story before getting a rope and pitch fork out.

Sheep. </div></div>

Pretty sure my statement hasn't hurt or praised either side. I simply said Scott is a nice guy and it sound like some of the people at PR and ATI are TRYING to set people up for a fall. That is bad business practice. There are two sides to every story but who is to say you can trust either, fully?

Wether you own a business yourself or not anyone should have the common sense to not want to come off as a dick, and undercut the guys selling your products for you. As Premier certainly has in this case. An email instead of a meeting or a phone call? Really?

You call us sheep? Sounds to me you are playing the antagonist in this thread. Scott has no reason to falsify his statements. Your going to get limited comms from PR on this one.... they wont release much info to us.

They are still a good scope, but the people involved in their sale and distribution are clearly lacking in certain business skills. Is it right to disregard their terms and sell under MAP? No it's not right, but the way they went about setting him up for a fall and then writing him an email to say "oh we caught you, you are done" is bullshit. Scott is a good guy, I've dealt with him before and he believes in helping the little guys that keep this sport going. If thats a discount here and there to keep loyal customers, so be it. His call, not anyone else.

 
#458
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

There are two sides to every story, we have at least part of the other side.

However, I still call it price fixing.
I am sure that Premier got the full price as required from Scott, in my opinion, what Scott sells it for is up to him.

Having to deal with two party disagreements on a daily basis, there is Scott's side, there is Premiers side and the truth usually resides somewhere in between.
 
#459
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Well, I for one do not need to hear any more about this MAP crap. I have not once seen Scott advertise his premiers or any other scope for less than map price. If you don't advertise it for less, then you have done nothing wrong. He gives a Hide discount and sells for a couple of dollars less to move product, something that any business would do to make sales. Most of the independent dealers move their prices down a little to make sales. I have done buisness with Scott for a few years now and bought my first Premier from him when they first came out. He has always shot me straight and done what he could for me. As for the scope, all I could think about was how great a scope this was going to be. I was not disappointed with it and still have it. I bought it because if was American made, built to high standards and still cost less than the S and B. Since then the prices have sky rocketed to 3k. Now there are several very high quality scopes in that price range and many that are less expensive. I can now get the S and B for right around there. The Vortex is a lot cheaper and everything but the new Nightforce or March's are less. Hell, the Hensoldt is not much more. When your products cost this much, there is not much that seperates yours from others except for reputation and customer service. I for one will not sell my Premier but I also will most likely not buy another because of this. There are to many alternatives out there for me to buy something from a company that uses such bull shit tactics to try and handle their business. There is most likely none of us on this forum that buys anything without trying to get a better price. Can you imagine going to the car stealership and telling them, "I'll take it for MSRP" with no haggleing involved. I for one would not. Anyways, Screw ATI, I will go with Vortex, S and B, Hensoldt, Nightforce, March or any of the other high end scopes that are available to me. I will vote with my dollars!
 
#460
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Premier are excellent scopes. Love mine.

This is how I see it.

ATI basically saved Premieres ass when Premiere was in trouble.

Liberty sold a bunch of Premiere scopes.

Premier/ATI did not want the scopes discounted below a certain level. Liberty violated the rules set up by Premiere/ATI

Premier/ATI cut of sales of Premiere scopes to Liberty for 90 days to make the point dont sell below a certain level

Liberty said I wont sell at all then.

Thats the end of a business agreement. No more no less.

Really none of my business.

I would hope both companies would go seperate ways and not try to destroy each other. We have enough folks atempting to take out firearms companies without us helping them </div></div>

Well reasoned and well said. +1
 
#461
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beenjammin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think its they way Terry, disguised himself using this forum as cover with the sole intention of setting Scott up for trouble is what I feel many of us have a problem with.

Dont use Snipershide as a means of backstabbing a fellow distributor in the back. esp. on a professional level in which Terry Dean should consider himself.

If there was suspect in Scott violating MAP, then call him up and discuss it like a profesional. Dont hire a damn spy to tattletale on him at the NRA trade show.

This weas my major beef anyway. The Whole Terry Dean part. </div></div>

Well Said, You hit the nail dead center.
 
#462
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

While I have never dealt with Liberty Optics I have dealt with ATI and they treated me pretty well. Without knowing their side how can we lay blame on anyone.

As Liberty Optics was dropped by ATI it would suggest that Liberty Optics was not ATI’s sole retail seller. Without knowing the relationship between the two we cannot understand whether this is a first offense or they had multiple infractions or was it simply a measure by Premier/ATI to manage their retail distributors.

Do we know what the volume of sales Liberty Optics did selling Premier against other retailers that were part of ATI’s distributions group 3-1 5-1 10-1, each sale below MAP from Liberty Optics resulted in a loss sale to potential other retails and specifically other retailers within ATI distribution system. How many of those retails heard about LO giving better pricing accidently or by design by members here on the hide looking to get the scope today instead of waiting for Liberty Optics to get them in (hypothetical) then other retailers who were following the MAP agreement. Following that line of thinking and using Liberty Optics posts which stated this was a sting operation, it would seem that GB stubby carried out the sting as they heard about or was advised that LO was carrying themselves in contravention of their agreement prior to initiating the sting how strong was the evidence prior to the sting.

As to the suspension a temporary suspension is not a termination of their agreement to allow Liberty Optics to continue to sell PH after the 90 days. Was the 90 day suspension a notification in itself to clearly state ATI/Premiers position on pricing. Was the 90 days an instrument installed to monitor Liberty Optics sales of PH scopes which they currently had in inventory and upon re-ordering of new product to determine if they were still in violation of the MAP agreement. If Liberty Optics was still selling at a higher rate then any other retailer upon re-ordering from ATI would that not suggest further review of their retail distribution relationship.

What is the common enforcement practice in cases like this with other distributors/retail agreements?


 
#463
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Internet retailers have, and always will offer products at cheaper prices then "brick and mortar" establishments (as you put it) due to the difference in overheads. As an example, it happens in computers every day. Does this mean that your electronic retail giants, that sell the exact same product for a much higher cost, are going out of business? They most certainly are not.
Consumers PAY a premium for the ability to walk into a store, talk a product over with a salesperson, feel and operate the product in person, and compare it to similar products. That's just the way it is. But that is a choice that the consumer has to make, not a choice that should be forced upon them by Premier Reticles.
By making that choice you are simply promoting inefficient business practices. From your stance I assume you are against Sunday trading and international free trade as well?
 
#464
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Hiders,
My apologies for not responding sooner. Some folks in the industry actually take a break from their day job and try to enjoy the weekend with their families (and Moms). Nevertheless, it is Monday. So back to work.

First, I realize that there won't be much Premier can say here, if anything, now to dissuade peoples' decisions to NOT buy Premier-manufactured , ATI-distributed or GB Stumpp-represented products. I can see how, based on the facts presented by Scott Berish of Liberty Optics, a person would view Premier-ATI-Stumpp as evil and greedy.

Second, it seems that Scott's reputation is beyond reproach. There are always two sides to every story. In this case, one side being the customer-vendor perspective and the other, the legal and economic considerations of a manufacturer-vendor engagement.

I hope my response here meets with the approval of Snipershide and its moderators. We are not currently a vendor or paid advertiser, but we have supported Snipershide since its inception through past advertising and product donation. Though lengthy, this response is necessary to inform the public of the facts surrounding the suspension of Liberty Optics' dealer account.

To begin with, I think it's important to identify the structure of Premier and its affiliates.

Definitions:

1. Premier Reticles, Ltd is a manufacturer of high quality, high performance riflescopes. A 3rd generation, family owned and operated American company, which employs Americans. Chris Thomas is President.

2. Optronika GmbH , located in Biebertal, Germany, is an independent company founded by Chris Thomas in 2007 which employs an opto-mechanical engineering staff, formerly of Schmidt & Bender. All designs for Premier products originate here as well as the sourcing of critical high-precision components used to assemble riflescopes in Winchester, VA. Chris Thomas is President.

3. Armament Technology Incorporated (ATI), a Canadian company located in Halifax, Nova Scotia is an independent company contracted to serve as Master Distributor for North America for Premier Tactical riflescopes. ATI acts as an inventory holding company for which Premier Tactical products are distributed throughout a dealer network. Andrew Webber is President.

4. GB Stumpp and Associates, Inc. is an independent factory representation group engaged by Premier Reticles to solicit and establish storefront retailer (dealer) accounts in the Northeast US territory, for the purposes of stocking and selling Premier products. Terry Dean is President.

In January 2011, GB Stumpp was contracted to establish dealer accounts in the NE US. These factory reps, at their own expense travel state by state, dealer by dealer, informing and educating retailers about the quality and reputation of Premier riflescopes. One of the first questions after "what is my price?" is "do you enforce MAP?". Brick-and-Mortar dealers live by a separate sets of costs vs. certain internet retailers. The must make enough margin in order to: 1) buy and stock the product (customers need to fondle the product), 2) pay employees and 3), pay their overhead costs-just to name a few. Of course, in this day and age the biggest threat to store-front retailers is the internet. Though some consumers choose to purchase products online, the fact remains that store-front retail sales account for the vast majority of riflescope sales-though not yet for Premier, but if internet retailers are not kept in check, your local gun shop with its higher costs of operations WILL go out of business.

In the 3+ months of discussions with potential Premier dealers, the name Liberty Optics came up several times. Terry Dean took it upon himself to not just call Scott for pricing, but also to consummate a purchase. Per the following conversations with Terry, he assured me of his lack of knowledge of Snipershide and that he did NOT mention being a "Hider" in order to get a "good price". On 19-April-2011, Terry simply called and asked for a price for a Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm Tactical and was NOT quoted MAP, but was offered a price substantially lower than MAP. In fact $100s of dollars less. He placed his order immediately and got the scope two days later. Note: This was less than a week after the "stern email" dated 13-April-2011, sent to all Premier dealers admonishing them to avoid such practices. Premier nor ATI had any knowledge of Terry's intentions or actions.

On Friday 29 April 2011, opening day of the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, Terry presented to me his new 5-25x and the Sales Receipt, dated 19-April-2011, from Liberty Optics. Upon receipt of an email copy of this Sales Receipt, ATI contacted Scott via telephone and got the response that the "Terry Dean purchase discount was for a credit against previous purchases...". ATI advises that they have a copy of the bill of sale and there is no credit referenced on it. When pressed to substantiate this credit, Liberty states they need to call back. Upon a call-back, Liberty advises there was no credit, it was sold at the discounted price.

Up until this point, Premier and ATI did not take any action against Liberty Optics as there was no tangible proof that such pricing was happening. After countless discussions, verbal and written agreements, Scott Berish continued to sell scopes at highly discounted prices. Combined with his inability to honor his commitments and agreements, and the reluctance of new dealers taking on the Premier lines of products, Premier and ATI felt it necessary to finally take action. It should realized that the terms of Scott’s dealership status were same terms as all Premier dealers conduct their business under. Premier and/or ATI reserve the right to suspend, and if need be, terminate, dealer status if any of the provisions are violated. This doesn't have as much to do with MAP as it does a legal contract where the undersigned acknowledges the provisions associated with such violations.

Since Scott has been nice enough to share <span style="font-style: italic">excerpts</span> from intercompany documents between ATI and Liberty Optics, and the interdealer communique' , I don't think it's necessary to outline their contents. However, I want to remind the reader that we did NOT terminate the LO's dealer account, we simply "suspended" it. Here I will quote the Suspension Letter verbatim. <span style="color: #FF6666">Red text</span> indicates what was left out of Scott's opening remarks in this thread:

<span style="font-style: italic">"<span style="color: #FF6666">April 29, 2011

Liberty Optics LLC
Attn: Scott Berish
PO Box 2554
900 Riverside Rd
Kalispell MT 59901
U.S.A.</span>

Dear Mr. Berish,

It has been presented to us that your company has been offering Premier Reticles 'Heritage' Tactical riflescopes directly to consumers at pricing significantly below Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).
This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing.<span style="color: #FF6666">As such, it contravenes article 11 of our published Terms as detailed in our 'Distributor Pricing' schedule.</span>
Please therefore be advised that your Dealer Account with Armament Technology Incorporated, sole Master Distributor for the Premier 'Heritage' Tactical line of products, is hereby immediately suspended. <span style="color: #FF6666"> Your current Purchase Orders #5 (dated 21-April-2011) and #6 (dated 26-April-2011) will not be satisfied until such time that payment for both orders plus Liberty's outstanding account balance is received by Armament Technology Incorporated.

At that time, we will arrange shipment of the orders either collect or to your UPS account.
Assuming your outstanding balances are paid within terms, we are willing to review the status of your account in 90 days time.

Regards,

E. J. (Ted) Milner.
Vice President
</span>"</span>
In our opinion, we have given Liberty Optics several chances in the past couple years to adjust his business practices where Premier products are concerned. Premier nor ATI, intended this to embarrass Scott in any way. Scott chose to air these internal communications publicly.

Furthermore, in order for Premier Reticles to stay in business and continue to offer warranty service, we must sell millions of dollars worth of riflescopes. The actions of Liberty Optics or any such offending account, and their refusal to abide by legally binding agreements has forced us to the decision to "suspend" their dealer status. Therefore, to protect the investments of both existing and new dealers, who have signed the same agreements, we must weed out dealers who refuse to play by the rules.

In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles
</div></div>


Thank you for responding.
 
#465
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Hiders,
<snip>

<span style="font-weight: bold">In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.</span>

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles
</div></div>

Extremely Childish and stands with what those of use remember from the Nunya days.

And how about a "screen shot" of this email so we can know for sure what was redacted.
 
#466
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

So everyone is suppose to believe that this Terry Dean is telling the truth versus Scott, who has done thousands of sales through this site alone??? Or did Terry realize he fucked up by begging Scott to give hime a break on the price, and when questioned by the top guns it was eaier to throw Scott under the bus?? Coming on here and trying to make Scott look like a shitty business man, doesn't bode well with many people on here, as ou can see in this thread. Its sad because Premier does have nice glass, but horrible people representing them to the public... -1 for Premier and -1 for Terry Dean.
 
#467
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
What is the common enforcement practice in cases like this with other distributors/retail agreements?
</div></div>

Most typically, you can sell at any price you see fit, but can only advertise the minimum advertised price. No issue would have arisen in Scott's case.
 
#468
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Hiders,
My apologies for not responding sooner. Some folks in the industry actually take a break from their day job and try to enjoy the weekend with their families (and Moms). Nevertheless, it is Monday. So back to work.

First, I realize that there won't be much Premier can say here, if anything, now to dissuade peoples' decisions to NOT buy Premier-manufactured , ATI-distributed or GB Stumpp-represented products. I can see how, based on the facts presented by Scott Berish of Liberty Optics, a person would view Premier-ATI-Stumpp as evil and greedy.

Second, it seems that Scott's reputation is beyond reproach. There are always two sides to every story. In this case, one side being the customer-vendor perspective and the other, the legal and economic considerations of a manufacturer-vendor engagement.

I hope my response here meets with the approval of Snipershide and its moderators. We are not currently a vendor or paid advertiser, but we have supported Snipershide since its inception through past advertising and product donation. Though lengthy, this response is necessary to inform the public of the facts surrounding the suspension of Liberty Optics' dealer account.

To begin with, I think it's important to identify the structure of Premier and its affiliates.

Definitions:

1. Premier Reticles, Ltd is a manufacturer of high quality, high performance riflescopes. A 3rd generation, family owned and operated American company, which employs Americans. Chris Thomas is President.

2. Optronika GmbH , located in Biebertal, Germany, is an independent company founded by Chris Thomas in 2007 which employs an opto-mechanical engineering staff, formerly of Schmidt & Bender. All designs for Premier products originate here as well as the sourcing of critical high-precision components used to assemble riflescopes in Winchester, VA. Chris Thomas is President.

3. Armament Technology Incorporated (ATI), a Canadian company located in Halifax, Nova Scotia is an independent company contracted to serve as Master Distributor for North America for Premier Tactical riflescopes. ATI acts as an inventory holding company for which Premier Tactical products are distributed throughout a dealer network. Andrew Webber is President.

4. GB Stumpp and Associates, Inc. is an independent factory representation group engaged by Premier Reticles to solicit and establish storefront retailer (dealer) accounts in the Northeast US territory, for the purposes of stocking and selling Premier products. Terry Dean is President.

In January 2011, GB Stumpp was contracted to establish dealer accounts in the NE US. These factory reps, at their own expense travel state by state, dealer by dealer, informing and educating retailers about the quality and reputation of Premier riflescopes. One of the first questions after "what is my price?" is "do you enforce MAP?". Brick-and-Mortar dealers live by a separate sets of costs vs. certain internet retailers. The must make enough margin in order to: 1) buy and stock the product (customers need to fondle the product), 2) pay employees and 3), pay their overhead costs-just to name a few. Of course, in this day and age the biggest threat to store-front retailers is the internet. Though some consumers choose to purchase products online, the fact remains that store-front retail sales account for the vast majority of riflescope sales-though not yet for Premier, but if internet retailers are not kept in check, your local gun shop with its higher costs of operations WILL go out of business.

In the 3+ months of discussions with potential Premier dealers, the name Liberty Optics came up several times. Terry Dean took it upon himself to not just call Scott for pricing, but also to consummate a purchase. Per the following conversations with Terry, he assured me of his lack of knowledge of Snipershide and that he did NOT mention being a "Hider" in order to get a "good price". On 19-April-2011, Terry simply called and asked for a price for a Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm Tactical and was NOT quoted MAP, but was offered a price substantially lower than MAP. In fact $100s of dollars less. He placed his order immediately and got the scope two days later. Note: This was less than a week after the "stern email" dated 13-April-2011, sent to all Premier dealers admonishing them to avoid such practices. Premier nor ATI had any knowledge of Terry's intentions or actions.

On Friday 29 April 2011, opening day of the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, Terry presented to me his new 5-25x and the Sales Receipt, dated 19-April-2011, from Liberty Optics. Upon receipt of an email copy of this Sales Receipt, ATI contacted Scott via telephone and got the response that the "Terry Dean purchase discount was for a credit against previous purchases...". ATI advises that they have a copy of the bill of sale and there is no credit referenced on it. When pressed to substantiate this credit, Liberty states they need to call back. Upon a call-back, Liberty advises there was no credit, it was sold at the discounted price.

Up until this point, Premier and ATI did not take any action against Liberty Optics as there was no tangible proof that such pricing was happening. After countless discussions, verbal and written agreements, Scott Berish continued to sell scopes at highly discounted prices. Combined with his inability to honor his commitments and agreements, and the reluctance of new dealers taking on the Premier lines of products, Premier and ATI felt it necessary to finally take action. It should realized that the terms of Scott’s dealership status were same terms as all Premier dealers conduct their business under. Premier and/or ATI reserve the right to suspend, and if need be, terminate, dealer status if any of the provisions are violated. This doesn't have as much to do with MAP as it does a legal contract where the undersigned acknowledges the provisions associated with such violations.

Since Scott has been nice enough to share <span style="font-style: italic">excerpts</span> from intercompany documents between ATI and Liberty Optics, and the interdealer communique' , I don't think it's necessary to outline their contents. However, I want to remind the reader that we did NOT terminate the LO's dealer account, we simply "suspended" it. Here I will quote the Suspension Letter verbatim. <span style="color: #FF6666">Red text</span> indicates what was left out of Scott's opening remarks in this thread:

<span style="font-style: italic">"<span style="color: #FF6666">April 29, 2011

Liberty Optics LLC
Attn: Scott Berish
PO Box 2554
900 Riverside Rd
Kalispell MT 59901
U.S.A.</span>

Dear Mr. Berish,

It has been presented to us that your company has been offering Premier Reticles 'Heritage' Tactical riflescopes directly to consumers at pricing significantly below Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).
This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing.<span style="color: #FF6666">As such, it contravenes article 11 of our published Terms as detailed in our 'Distributor Pricing' schedule.</span>
Please therefore be advised that your Dealer Account with Armament Technology Incorporated, sole Master Distributor for the Premier 'Heritage' Tactical line of products, is hereby immediately suspended. <span style="color: #FF6666"> Your current Purchase Orders #5 (dated 21-April-2011) and #6 (dated 26-April-2011) will not be satisfied until such time that payment for both orders plus Liberty's outstanding account balance is received by Armament Technology Incorporated.

At that time, we will arrange shipment of the orders either collect or to your UPS account.
Assuming your outstanding balances are paid within terms, we are willing to review the status of your account in 90 days time.

Regards,

E. J. (Ted) Milner.
Vice President
</span>"</span>
In our opinion, we have given Liberty Optics several chances in the past couple years to adjust his business practices where Premier products are concerned. Premier nor ATI, intended this to embarrass Scott in any way. Scott chose to air these internal communications publicly.

Furthermore, in order for Premier Reticles to stay in business and continue to offer warranty service, we must sell millions of dollars worth of riflescopes. The actions of Liberty Optics or any such offending account, and their refusal to abide by legally binding agreements has forced us to the decision to "suspend" their dealer status. Therefore, to protect the investments of both existing and new dealers, who have signed the same agreements, we must weed out dealers who refuse to play by the rules.

In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles

And now we have the rest of the story.


Reminds me of all those years as a police officer never jumping to first persons story before hearing second persons
</div></div>
 
#469
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Hiders,
My apologies for not responding sooner. Some folks in the industry actually take a break from their day job and try to enjoy the weekend with their families (and Moms). Nevertheless, it is Monday. So back to work.

First, I realize that there won't be much Premier can say here, if anything, now to dissuade peoples' decisions to NOT buy Premier-manufactured , ATI-distributed or GB Stumpp-represented products. I can see how, based on the facts presented by Scott Berish of Liberty Optics, a person would view Premier-ATI-Stumpp as evil and greedy.

Second, it seems that Scott's reputation is beyond reproach. There are always two sides to every story. In this case, one side being the customer-vendor perspective and the other, the legal and economic considerations of a manufacturer-vendor engagement.

I hope my response here meets with the approval of Snipershide and its moderators. We are not currently a vendor or paid advertiser, but we have supported Snipershide since its inception through past advertising and product donation. Though lengthy, this response is necessary to inform the public of the facts surrounding the suspension of Liberty Optics' dealer account.

To begin with, I think it's important to identify the structure of Premier and its affiliates.

Definitions:

1. Premier Reticles, Ltd is a manufacturer of high quality, high performance riflescopes. A 3rd generation, family owned and operated American company, which employs Americans. Chris Thomas is President.

2. Optronika GmbH , located in Biebertal, Germany, is an independent company founded by Chris Thomas in 2007 which employs an opto-mechanical engineering staff, formerly of Schmidt & Bender. All designs for Premier products originate here as well as the sourcing of critical high-precision components used to assemble riflescopes in Winchester, VA. Chris Thomas is President.

3. Armament Technology Incorporated (ATI), a Canadian company located in Halifax, Nova Scotia is an independent company contracted to serve as Master Distributor for North America for Premier Tactical riflescopes. ATI acts as an inventory holding company for which Premier Tactical products are distributed throughout a dealer network. Andrew Webber is President.

4. GB Stumpp and Associates, Inc. is an independent factory representation group engaged by Premier Reticles to solicit and establish storefront retailer (dealer) accounts in the Northeast US territory, for the purposes of stocking and selling Premier products. Terry Dean is President.

In January 2011, GB Stumpp was contracted to establish dealer accounts in the NE US. These factory reps, at their own expense travel state by state, dealer by dealer, informing and educating retailers about the quality and reputation of Premier riflescopes. One of the first questions after "what is my price?" is "do you enforce MAP?". Brick-and-Mortar dealers live by a separate sets of costs vs. certain internet retailers. The must make enough margin in order to: 1) buy and stock the product (customers need to fondle the product), 2) pay employees and 3), pay their overhead costs-just to name a few. Of course, in this day and age the biggest threat to store-front retailers is the internet. Though some consumers choose to purchase products online, the fact remains that store-front retail sales account for the vast majority of riflescope sales-though not yet for Premier, but if internet retailers are not kept in check, your local gun shop with its higher costs of operations WILL go out of business.

In the 3+ months of discussions with potential Premier dealers, the name Liberty Optics came up several times. Terry Dean took it upon himself to not just call Scott for pricing, but also to consummate a purchase. Per the following conversations with Terry, he assured me of his lack of knowledge of Snipershide and that he did NOT mention being a "Hider" in order to get a "good price". On 19-April-2011, Terry simply called and asked for a price for a Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm Tactical and was NOT quoted MAP, but was offered a price substantially lower than MAP. In fact $100s of dollars less. He placed his order immediately and got the scope two days later. Note: This was less than a week after the "stern email" dated 13-April-2011, sent to all Premier dealers admonishing them to avoid such practices. Premier nor ATI had any knowledge of Terry's intentions or actions.

On Friday 29 April 2011, opening day of the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, Terry presented to me his new 5-25x and the Sales Receipt, dated 19-April-2011, from Liberty Optics. Upon receipt of an email copy of this Sales Receipt, ATI contacted Scott via telephone and got the response that the "Terry Dean purchase discount was for a credit against previous purchases...". ATI advises that they have a copy of the bill of sale and there is no credit referenced on it. When pressed to substantiate this credit, Liberty states they need to call back. Upon a call-back, Liberty advises there was no credit, it was sold at the discounted price.

Up until this point, Premier and ATI did not take any action against Liberty Optics as there was no tangible proof that such pricing was happening. After countless discussions, verbal and written agreements, Scott Berish continued to sell scopes at highly discounted prices. Combined with his inability to honor his commitments and agreements, and the reluctance of new dealers taking on the Premier lines of products, Premier and ATI felt it necessary to finally take action. It should realized that the terms of Scott’s dealership status were same terms as all Premier dealers conduct their business under. Premier and/or ATI reserve the right to suspend, and if need be, terminate, dealer status if any of the provisions are violated. This doesn't have as much to do with MAP as it does a legal contract where the undersigned acknowledges the provisions associated with such violations.

Since Scott has been nice enough to share <span style="font-style: italic">excerpts</span> from intercompany documents between ATI and Liberty Optics, and the interdealer communique' , I don't think it's necessary to outline their contents. However, I want to remind the reader that we did NOT terminate the LO's dealer account, we simply "suspended" it. Here I will quote the Suspension Letter verbatim. <span style="color: #FF6666">Red text</span> indicates what was left out of Scott's opening remarks in this thread:

<span style="font-style: italic">"<span style="color: #FF6666">April 29, 2011

Liberty Optics LLC
Attn: Scott Berish
PO Box 2554
900 Riverside Rd
Kalispell MT 59901
U.S.A.</span>

Dear Mr. Berish,

It has been presented to us that your company has been offering Premier Reticles 'Heritage' Tactical riflescopes directly to consumers at pricing significantly below Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).
This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing.<span style="color: #FF6666">As such, it contravenes article 11 of our published Terms as detailed in our 'Distributor Pricing' schedule.</span>
Please therefore be advised that your Dealer Account with Armament Technology Incorporated, sole Master Distributor for the Premier 'Heritage' Tactical line of products, is hereby immediately suspended. <span style="color: #FF6666"> Your current Purchase Orders #5 (dated 21-April-2011) and #6 (dated 26-April-2011) will not be satisfied until such time that payment for both orders plus Liberty's outstanding account balance is received by Armament Technology Incorporated.

At that time, we will arrange shipment of the orders either collect or to your UPS account.
Assuming your outstanding balances are paid within terms, we are willing to review the status of your account in 90 days time.

Regards,

E. J. (Ted) Milner.
Vice President
</span>"</span>
In our opinion, we have given Liberty Optics several chances in the past couple years to adjust his business practices where Premier products are concerned. Premier nor ATI, intended this to embarrass Scott in any way. Scott chose to air these internal communications publicly.

Furthermore, in order for Premier Reticles to stay in business and continue to offer warranty service, we must sell millions of dollars worth of riflescopes. The actions of Liberty Optics or any such offending account, and their refusal to abide by legally binding agreements has forced us to the decision to "suspend" their dealer status. Therefore, to protect the investments of both existing and new dealers, who have signed the same agreements, we must weed out dealers who refuse to play by the rules.

In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles

And now we have the rest of the story.


Reminds me of all those years as a police officer never jumping to first persons story before hearing second persons
</div></div> </div></div>

Ya except now he's posted "additional" details in that email......which means nothing until someone takes a screen shot of the actual email to prove these parts were in fact redacted by Scott.
 
#470
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

11 pages in 2 days... This has obviously brought people opinions to the surface.

We can argue forever about this and Im sure that some will continue to do so.

In the end it is 2 different views on how to conduct business. Choose whichever you prefer and support it.

My decision is made and I will not be looking for a Premier anytime in the foreseeable future.

I will be looking to Scott and Liberty Optics next time I am in need.
 
#471
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

"It has been presented to us that your company has been offering Premier Reticles 'Heritage' Tactical riflescopes directly to consumers at pricing significantly below Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).
This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing.<span style="color: #FF6666">As such, it contravenes article 11 of our published Terms as detailed in our 'Distributor Pricing' schedule.</span>"

"In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles"
</div></div>

Nobody doubts Scott was selling for less than minimum advertised price, but none of us have seen him advertise less than the minimum advertised price. This leaves the question of what contract language he violated, which is still not really adequately explained in your lengthy message.

Rather convenient to not actually recite rule he broke, but state you won't post again because you're somehow above it.
 
#472
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

This whole thing stinks. If Chris knew what was good for him, he's have taken the humble pie approach as opposed to the high horse approach.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">And FFS, can people stop quoting his whole post over and over? We read it the first time....</span></span>
 
#473
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASR-Briggs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 14pt">And FFS, can people stop quoting his whole post over and over? We read it the first time....</span></span> </div></div>

^^^^^^^^
laugh.gif
 
#474
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

People like Scott mainly because most on the Hide knows he gives you the best deal.

Premier was nice enough to ONLY suspend his account.

Scott feared loss of business having to explain to customers why he is unable to fill their orders for Premier scopes and unable to give them the best discounts anymore. So he made Premier and ATI look bad.

ATI caught him "undercover" (which should be expected for enforcing MAP pricing) and Scott lied trying to defend his income/reputation of his business.

As a customer of course we like Scott. As a business with MAP pricing enforced I would see the issue. Premier's reaction is lenient and expected.

Premier in their response seems the most professional and reasonable.

Scott, well played, but for someone with such a esteemed reputation on the Hide I would have figured you would have taken the high road instead of going after Premier and ATI like this. Though it seems like the loss of income on Premier Scopes may be offset by the new customers who hate paying MAP/retail pricing and businesses enforcing of it by this hate thread. I think this was a poor choice for your reputation and character. <span style="font-weight: bold">Sounds like Scott's reputation is based on price rather than his character.</span>

Point is it is not right for Scott to end up being the sole source for Premier Optics because people know he is the cheapest. He is cheating his competition to grow his business. Premier needs to keep things even and fair between retailers so they have a larger exposure to the market.

Sounds like Scott has ruined his business with one manufacturer and likely others. Despite how much people want to support him it does nothing if he can't stock product because manufacturers are not happy with his pricing. <span style="font-weight: bold">You cheat Scott by not paying MAP, Scott cheats the his competition by charging less than MAP.</span> <span style="text-decoration: underline">If you really supported Scott you would pay full price. If Scott really deserves the reputation claimed here he would not cheat his competition with pricing, but win with service!</span>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I will not do business with Scott at Liberty Optics.</span></span>

I would consider a Premier optic if I ever found the need and was in the budget for one just like any other scope in that category.

If Premier needs to lower their MAP, they will!
 
#475
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Chris it's good you posted and there are no problems as far as the Hide for you doing so to tell your side of the story.
 
#477
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I'll just say this. America is all about free enterprise. That's part of our liberty. Forcing a person to sell their product(after they've already paid the manufacturer for it) at a fixed price is about as communist and anti-American as it gets. I'm not sure how exactly setting up an MAP helps make any manufacturer money since when a distributor receives the product the manufacturer has already been paid. Would it not be in the best interest of the manufacturer that the distributor get those products sold as quickly as possible so that they can purchase MORE? By setting up an MAP it seems like you're setting yourself up for a very slow ride as far as revenue is concerned. If I were a full-blown capitalist and hellbent on profit I'd say have at it. Being the manufacturer I would have already gotten my revenue from the distributor because in order for him to lay his hands on my product he'd have had to have already paid me. So what's the big deal? I mean are you trying to fix prices so other people will jump in to the game and help make the product more known? The scope already has a big following, so as far as marketing is concerned, I think that objective has already been completed. This just makes no sense to me. Once a person has put money forward for a product and the seller has given them that product, that product is their personal property to use at their discretion. I don't care if they're a "distributor" or a private person. Even if they're a distributor, it's their business. There's nothing free market or ethical about what I'm seeing here, regardless of what you say.


If you sell a lot of a product for less, you can still generate more profit than if you sold very few of the same product for much money. So what Scott was doing was beneficial, but whatever.


ETA: and no I don't own my own house where I have to pay some HOA, I'm sure that question would have come up.
 
#479
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Mr Thomas thanks for the reply, unfortunately I think the harm is done. With regards to internet dealers versus Brick-and-Mortar dealers, I really think thats a mute point, I think most here agree that we are buying a lot of our high end gear online. Maybe if you need an inexpensive scope for hunting you might drop by your local, but I hardly think that anyone here has walked into there local gunshop and plonked down $2500+ for a scope, but obviously this is just my humble opinion. I think Mr Dean of GB Stumpp and Associates Inc, who apparently was only hired by ATI this January successfully made a name for himself with POTENTIAL Premier dealers by carrying out this little stunt, but unfortunatley I don't think its going to benefit Premier or ATI, it might get GB Stumpp and Associates more stocking dealers, (because he got rid of Liberty Optics) but how many $2500+ scopes are they going to sell.
 
#480
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Premier are excellent scopes. Love mine.

This is how I see it.

ATI basically saved Premieres ass when Premiere was in trouble.

Liberty sold a bunch of Premiere scopes.

Premier/ATI did not want the scopes discounted below a certain level. Liberty violated the rules set up by Premiere/ATI

Premier/ATI cut of sales of Premiere scopes to Liberty for 90 days to make the point dont sell below a certain level

Liberty said I wont sell at all then.

Thats the end of a business agreement. No more no less.

Really none of my business.

I would hope both companies would go seperate ways and not try to destroy each other. We have enough folks atempting to take out firearms companies without us helping them </div></div>

Holly fucking shit...Mike Miller and I agree on something. Forget the 10 pages of "Premier is the devil stuff", this is a whole new epic thread now... LMAO.

Like I offered in my previous post, all of you that hate Premier now, please feel free to send them to me. I will gladly run their optic...until a better mouse trap comes out.
 
#481
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Brick-and-Mortar dealers live by a separate sets of costs vs. certain internet retailers. The must make enough margin in order to: 1) buy and stock the product (customers need to fondle the product), 2) pay employees and 3), pay their overhead costs-just to name a few. Of course, in this day and age the biggest threat to store-front retailers is the internet. Though some consumers choose to purchase products online, the fact remains that store-front retail sales account for the vast majority of riflescope sales-though
</div></div>


So MAP pricing is really a method of ensuring the brick and mortar vendors can stay in business when competing against the lower overhead of the internet guys?

Just a question, no affiliation to this drama.
 
#482
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

PH has been nothing but good to us. Business is business. Their business is not my business. Just like none of y’all have the right to know any of my business affairs. Nor will you.

Proceed with the man drama.
 
#483
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PH has been nothing but good to us. Business is business. Their business is not my business. Just like none of y’all have the right to know any of my business affairs. Nor will you.

Proceed with the man drama.
</div></div>

+1 (on both counts)
 
#484
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So MAP pricing is really a method of ensuring the brick and mortar vendors can stay in business when competing against the lower overhead of the internet guys? </div></div>
Short answer,
MAP pricing is a policy to keep a product profitable for Value Added Resellers.
If one guy only marks up the product say $20 per piece than he would get the lion share of the market and there would be no reason for other resellers to carry the product.
When MAP agreement is in place, more resellers can carry the products and thus make them more available and distributes the burden of customer service accross its network.

Manufactures are great at making things and shipping boxes full of stuff to folks.
They are not great at communicating with customers and holding their hand through a purchase.
 
#485
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

To start off, I have purchased a scope from Liberty Optics, and I think Scott is a great guy. The funny thing is, if everyone who keeps posting that they think Scott is a great guy and his customer service are what his business stands on, would have just paid Scott MAP insteading of digging for discounts, then none of this would have transpired. The biggest problem in this whole situation lies at the heart of what is wrong with America today in my opinion. I am about the cheapest guy I know, I am not referring to using junk or not wanting the best of the best, but I am referring to my practice of scouring the web and other places to find the absolute best deal on items. I typically have no qualms about checking things out at a brick and mortar store, and then if I want it, I will look online to find the absolute lowest price. This in my opinion is the cause of this dispute to start with. There is a massive shift in what we expect from retailers and dealers, we don't really care if we get good customer service, until AFTER we buy something and it breaks, and we are definately NOT willing to pay a premium to get it. We perpetuate the philosophy of WalMarts and other big chain stores that drive out the mom and pop places, because they can save us a couple of dollars.

If we all stood by what seems to be preached, we would pay Scott a premium for offering such exceptional service, and he would not only do better because his profit margins would be higher, but he would not be at odds with companies who 'appear' to be trying to secure the future of brick and mortar type businesses.

Now, I absolutely don't agree with MAP policies and find even further issue with more aggressive interpretations of those policies that end up constituting in my mind price fixing. I feel like MAP and price fixing also end up causing the same issue in the long run. Eventually smaller businesses end up suffering anyway because they are forced to sell at the same higher prices, but the larger sporting goods stores end up negotiating better deals up front due to their volume, this volume ends up being negotiated to the point that they can offer a discount, which ends up shrinking the margin. Therefore, the smaller (less volume) businesses aren't able to compete and end up dropping these lines. So MAP while it can be argued in the way that Premier is defending it, can actually lead to the same problems as allowing some dealers without overhead to sell at much lower prices does. The solution lies in the hands of the consumers.

If everyone researched and based their purchasing decisions more in line with what they believe, this wouldn't be an issue. At the end of the day, we are too cheap, lazy and complacent to actually stand up for what this country and its free market system are all about. This is at the heart of this entire dispute and we just see it manifested in two different viewpoints by two different companies trying to compete in an ever increasingly difficult market. We all have a voice, and dollars with which to vote. It seems to me that instead of multiple page rants on the subject, we need to examine not just our high end scope buying practices, but the way we spend all of our money. The choice won't be evident today, but rest assured, in the end we will receive exactly what the majority vote for... it is the American way.
 
#486
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So MAP pricing is really a method of ensuring the brick and mortar vendors can stay in business when competing against the lower overhead of the internet guys? </div></div>
Short answer,
MAP pricing is a policy to keep a product profitable for Value Added Resellers.
If one guy only marks up the product say $20 per piece than he would get the lion share of the market and there would be no reason for other resellers to carry the product.
When MAP agreement is in place, more resellers can carry the products and thus make them more available and distributes the burden of customer service accross its network.

Manufactures are great at making things and shipping boxes full of stuff to folks.
They are not great at communicating with customers and holding their hand through a purchase. </div></div>

That makes sense, but what it's really doing is setting up a price control so that vendors are on the same footing so you in-theory, should have the same market share regardless of your overhead. Seems to me though that if your overhead is too high and threatens your status as a vendor your business model is what's actually faulty, kind of like an evolutionary approach to business i.e. adapt or become extinct. MAP pricing seems to be a disservice to the consumer who should be able to take their business to the best practiced (better business model thus lower priced) vendor.
 
#487
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mohonri</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
ATI caught him "undercover" (which should be expected for enforcing MAP pricing)</div></div>

But minimum advertised pricing doesn't need a "sting" to enforce - just observe the advertised prices. A sale price not advertised is not an advertised price, and therefore not in violation of a minimum advertised price.
 
#488
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

It seems to me that MAP was never violated.

It still looks the same to me as it did on page one.

Some vendors dont like to compete on a level field if that competition requires them to extract less cash from each buyers pocket.

"Scott is willing to make less per sale. The only way I could straight up compete with that would be to do likewise. I dont like the sound of that at all. I just want to make more per sale, but buyers are going to Scott. So, can we just force Scott to stop selling them then??"

That's what it seems like to me. Whatever.
 
#489
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Just stop pretending ladies. This is no MAP policy (or even MSRP - keyword being suggested) this is simple price fixing at its rawest. Premiere has set the final price and dealers must sell by that price or be struck down. Simple as that. Doesn't mean a thing whether they have good product or not it's simple business decision.

If you like it, approve it and condone it you're a commie or you don't know shit about economy and what communism is or how do you get it in "your pants".


But in the end time and markets will tell.
 
#490
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just stop pretending ladies. This is no MAP policy (or even MSRP - keyword being suggested) this is simple price fixing at its rawest. Premiere has set the final price and dealers must sell by that price or be struck down. Simple as that. Doesn't mean a thing whether they have good product or not it's simple business decision.

If you like it, approve it and condone it you're a commie or you don't know shit about economy and what communism is or how do you get it in "your pants".



But in the end time and markets will tell.</div></div>
I do not necessarily agree with it, but Scott did. Or else he wouldn't have put his name on the contract...
 
#491
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just stop pretending ladies. This is no MAP policy (or even MSRP - keyword being suggested) <span style="color: #FF0000">this is simple price fixing at its rawest</span>. Premiere has set the final price and dealers must sell by that price or be struck down. Simple as that. Doesn't mean a thing whether they have good product or not it's simple business decision.

If you like it, approve it and condone it you're a commie or you don't know shit about economy and what communism is or how do you get it in "your pants".


But in the end time and markets will tell. </div></div>

are you sure? wouldn't price fixing be if all the scope manufacturers got together and agreed none of them will sell a scope bellow a certain amount? i don't think a single manufacture setting their own price is considered "price fixing", in this country at least.

disclaimer: i'm not a lawyer, businessman and i didn't even stay at a holiday inn last night. maybe someone can find me a definition of "price fixing" that contradicts how i understand it.
 
#492
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

For me, I see a couple major issues with Premier's arguments. First, which has been already been covered, is the definition of MAP. Since MAP to me means what a dealer puts out on its website as the price of an optic, LO did nothing wrong. Premier obviously defines MAP much more broadly so that it can enforce price fixing.

Secondly, Premier argues that it's disadvantageous for brick-and-mortar businesses to carry their scopes if online dealers without the overhead are offering scopes at discounted prices. Welcome to the 21st century. The fact is that very few wise brick-and-mortar shops should carry $2500 optics since a negligible portion of those shopping in a store would ever purchase it. Premier's scopes appeal to a very small audience (even smaller since their price hike last year). Defending MAP as a way to protect brick-and-mortar operations is not only outdated, it's completely ridiculous when viewing how and where tactical shooters purchase their optics. Our community doesn't buy PH, S&B, and Hensoldt optics online because they aren't available in our local gun store, we purchase them online because we're a picky, discerning clientele. No brick-and-mortar store could afford to carry a product line that caters to consumers looking for FFP vs SFP, various reticle styles, etc. We research our scopes like we research our shooting rigs, and if we're going to spend a few grand on glass, then we buy precisely what we want. No brick-and-mortar enterprise could possibly cater to that audience.

I see where Premier is coming from, but it's policies are simply out-of-touch with the discerning consumer, as demonstrated both by its MAP policy, its price hike, and it's understanding of their key market. For a company trying to pry market share from Nightforce, S&B, and USO, it's doing all the wrong things. While I think they make a decent scope, other mitigating factors outweigh that point.
 
#494
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I looked through several Premier, while very nice, i cannot justify the purchase of one of those high cost scope compared to IOR or even Sightron SIII.
I will buy from Scott but not from ATI
 
#495
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I found this by doing a search on the history of MAP. It may warrent more research.

"In the 2006 Supreme Court case Leegin Creative Leather Products Inc. vs. PSKS Inc., the Court ruled that minimum advertised pricing policies are legal and do not break antitrust laws. As part of this ruling, however, the Supreme Court clarified that while retailers must abide by MAP policies, they may sell products for whatever price they choose."
 
#496
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok. so you have the information you need. how many other people posting in this thread have that information? for the rest of us, there is a big part missing but few are willing to ask for it before they jump on the bandwagon.</div></div>
I've dealt with Scott and I observed Rob01. Both impressed me in a good way. Thus - not having all the information - my benefit of the doubt goes to Scott and against ATI/PR. I don't need to see all the dirty laundry myself.

<span style="font-style: italic">An analogy. If I walk with a person I trust, and he looks down and says "Careful, sh*t!" - I'll step aside rather than bending down and smelling every square inch of the pavement to make sure he didn't misjudge.
wink.gif
</span>
 
#497
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is how I see it.

ATI basically saved Premieres ass when Premiere was in trouble.

Liberty sold a bunch of Premiere scopes.

Premier/ATI did not want the scopes discounted below a certain level. Liberty violated the rules set up by Premiere/ATI

Premier/ATI cut of sales of Premiere scopes to Liberty for 90 days to make the point dont sell below a certain level

Liberty said I wont sell at all then.

Thats the end of a business agreement. No more no less.

Really none of my business.

I would hope both companies would go seperate ways and not try to destroy each other. We have enough folks atempting to take out firearms companies without us helping them </div></div>

MIke I have to agree with you on this. While I am a big fan of Scott and Liberty Optics, this does sound pretty cut and dried... simple business. MAP pricing may not sit well with some but it's the structure of a majority of business deals out there, and it keeps the manufactures supplying us with new and innovative products.

I hope the two sides can see eye to eye at some point. I'm sorry to hear about the bad blood.
 
#498
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I find this very interesting.....I like to know the true character behind companies and people I deal with. They just dirtied their name and it will take it's toll because they have lots of competition.....when you put out that much coin on some glass yeah....hell S&B and Zeiss are what I start looking at.
But corporate tactics are what they are and I still smile when I remember the LaRue legal shit when whoever it was went and patented the letters OSR and Mark had to change the name of his 308 to OBR....LOL...there are aholes everywhere.....I can live without Premier for sure and will.....I suspect you will find a good replacement moneymaker also...so EFF em.
smile.gif


cheers bro,

Jim Lowell
 
#499
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

This is a non-issue with most brands and manufacturer/supplier relations, and kept off the radar from the consumers whenever there is a issue in the relationship.

In this case Premier/ATI has failed to solve this in a manner that assures that consumers aren't made aware of rheir pricing politics, operations to catch any violations etc.

Bottom line I think that this is what most readers will carry away with them after reading this or any of the other LO-PR threads, rather than thinking "Yeah, Thomas is right - real stores must stay alive too, and Liberty kills them, poor fellas".

Premier isn't exactly the first brand that has come across the problem with change in consumer trends and Internet sales, but they've certainly proven to the consumers that they still have some challenges to overwin before they can compare themselves with the Big Names out there.
 
#500
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

To whom it may concern at Premier reticles,
1) Do you remember when you didn't want to repair a Leupold sent in for repair that had your reticle, supposedly because the reticle that you manufactured wasn't available anymore. What happened when the "Hide" got involved??

2) Do you remember when people that paid retail on preorders recieved their scopes after everyone who got them at discounted prices??

3) Do you remember when your scope was originally projected to cost 1500,1700,2000,2200,2500,2700....dollars??

3) Do you remember when Scott took you on to help out your cashflow; to free up some of your funds??

4) Where do you get off thinking that a scope that has parts made in NUNYA (Taiwan) should have the same percieved value as a Schmidt & Bender??

5) Can anyother manufacturer claim your return rate for failures or malfunctions; including Barska or whomever?

6) Whatever happened to your supposed USMC contract??

7) Whatever happened to your Made in the USA claims??

8) Do you think those employees that you fired the day before Christmas had a good one??

9) You knew for years the prices Scott was selling your scopes because you needed the revenue, now he is expendable??

10) Do you pay anything to USO for their MTC design and is their patent on your product while you demand them to pay for your reticle and display your patent?

For years you've been trying to lay it to the American Public!

Like I said an explanation/apology w/ no substance!
 
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