Rifle Scopes We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

[sgj2025]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I look for the best price when I buy...period. 3000 dollar scopes are a luxury for me. I will let my billfold be my voice!!!

 

[SingleShot85]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

 

[Inogame]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I'm reluctant to involve myself in this thread since I don't have a dog in this hunt.
I just want to point out that MAP pricing or Minimum pricing is not Price Fixing.

Price Fixing occurs when a significant market share of companies selling a distinct type of product collude to set a price on their like products. A single optic manufacturer setting a price for their product does not qualify since consumers have other optic makers they can choose from.

It would only be Price Fixing, if Premire, USO, S&B, Hensolt, ect got together in a smoke-filled room to hash out what prices to sell their optics at... you need at least two companies colluding to fix prices.

As far as the significance of MAP pricing, and the Agreement between Liberty and Premire/ATI, the exact language of their agreement is none of my business. If Liberty signed and agreement and didn't live to it shame on them. I don't see any gain for Premire/ATI in punishing Liberty Optics for nothing - or even unjustly, that doesn't track with me as a business decision. As far as the sting operation, it's irrelevant as to the means if an agreement was violated. This is why unannounced audits tend to be the most effective audits. It's easy to act right when you know someone is looking.

Again, I'll admit I'm injecting a good portion of personal opinion into a thread that doesn't effect me personally, so please keep that in mind when reading it. My intention was just to describe what price fixing is, the rest is just because I don't know when to shut up.
-Ino

 

[david777]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: StanwoodSpartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So everyone is suppose to believe that this Terry Dean is telling the truth versus Scott, who has done thousands of sales through this site alone??? Or did Terry realize he fucked up by begging Scott to give hime a break on the price, and when questioned by the top guns it was eaier to throw Scott under the bus?? Coming on here and trying to make Scott look like a shitty business man, doesn't bode well with many people on here, as ou can see in this thread. Its sad because Premier does have nice glass, but horrible people representing them to the public... -1 for Premier and -1 for Terry Dean. </div></div>

Couldn't agree more with you SS. I have done numerous deals with Scott, everyone has been handled professionally. As I stated in an earlier post, I own more than a couple of Premiers, all purchased through Scott, so I am in no way a hater of the Premier product but quite the opposite. I remember when I was vacillating about purchasing another Premier back when all the rumors abounded concerning PH's financial woes and impending demise. Scott told me he was in constant contact with Chris and while it was a hard go at that point, he felt assured they would pull through and grow. He was an excellent representative for this brand. As I look more at this situation, it seems ATI is more the problem, and maybe despite Chris's one and only comment in this thread, his hands are tied because of contractual agreements with ATI. What is clear is Terry Dean represented himself as a Hide member for the purpose of entrapment against a dealer who has benefitted Hide members, and he did it under the direction of ATI. For that, they can both go freakin pound sand. I hope ATI chokes on this one. Chris, wake up here and man up, this situation really sucks and save some face while you can.

 

[lennyo3034]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Could someone point me where to look for the issues between Premier and Leupold? Its been brought up several times in this thread but a google search didn't help too much. Thanks.

 

[i_rep]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

"RANT ON"

I find all of this very funny.

I personally find the sentiments spoken here, after all of these pages of this thread will continue for some time. Although it is possible that Scott will lose some revenue generated from the Premier line, that Liberty was in business prior to Premier and will be around long after Premier.

I work as a manufacturers sales rep in two unrelated industries. Each and every manufacturer has some sort of MAP policy. It refers to exactly that. MAP, Min ADVERTISED Price. We all know things get sold every day for less than that. In todays economy as a business when you have a customer that is wanting to spend their hard earned dollars you do anything you can to try and make sure it stays with you.

It doesn't matter if its Sony, Samsung, Dell, Toshiba, Harmon Kardon, Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Marantz, Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, Alpine, Audison, Hertz, JL Audio, Kenwood, Kicker, Memphis, Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Polaris, Suzuki. Each and every one all have basically the exact same type of fine print.

In the end, a dealer does what they have to do to get the sale. How many times do you hear "lowest price guaranteed" or we will give you 110% of the difference, etc? We all see those national commercials each and everday.

Scott stepped up and believed in and help get the PH line off the ground (I know I spent five figures with him buying several of those scopes). Then ATI stepped in....had all the dealers sign agreements....inflated the price (seems like a few times now). The scope that could once be purchased for a SH deal of 2---.00 now you are supposed to pay 2895.00 for.

They WERE a good deal, well built (some had a few problems and I think that several of us here on the Hide have helped them fix a few things). Now they got a contract and proly get alot more from the govt per item than we pay for them here. I believe IMHO that Premier was better off before ATI, but they saw like he said above a several MILLION dollar purchase order and got blinded by the dollar signs.

In my industries that I work in, I go to vegas every Jan for the CES (Consumer Electronics Show) trade show. I also go to the INDY Powersports EXPO (big trade show for everything motorcycle industry related). Each year I see my owner shake hands with mass merchants and big box stores that want to buy our product on a very large purchase order and he escorts them out of our booth and thanks them for stopping. Saying this.....We apprecaite your interest, but we are not intersted in doing business with big box stores, that will eventually devalue the product line. It is always funny how they start one hear with a half million, then the next year a million, then the next at two million or ten million to try and see where our breaking point is, but he stands his ground.

Most of the companies I work for also have internet policies which usually mean if you have a website and an online store, if you are going to carry our product it will not be put online where someone can go click it to ship it. That is why there are dealer locaters so you can find someone near you to go find the product. We lose some sales becaue of it but overall it adds strength to the lines.

What I find the most funny overall is that ATI heard about this and decided to become a member and make this his first post, whom knows maybe his only post and he feels he said all he needed to and we can just go back to shooting.

I think NOT, I will continue to use the PH products I own. Only because I don't feel the need to have USO build me scopes with the Gen II XR reticle, and S&B doesn't make that one anymore so they are difficult to find. No fire liquidation sale here. I can only hope that we make sure to spread this news like any advertisement....so tell (7) peope and make sure they tell (7) more. Maybe CS and SWFA can still make plenty of sales to distribute all of the items being manufactured, but in the least maybe ATI will feel it some if we have some follow thru.



"RANT OFF"


To me its not a MAP policy. Its a PRICE FIXING POLICY. So tell it for what it really is....it is a MIN SELLING PRICE.


Whatever price that shows up EVEN on an invoice is not a dealer breaking the MAP policy.



My last word is to Scott personally....... LAWSUIT

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Mr. Milner and Mr. Thomas both know that when 10,500+ unique individuals have already viewed this debacle in a matter of days that the damage done is significant and lasting and the result of not understanding the market forces set upon them. What they do not fully understand is that the scope marketplace is literally over-run with high quality scopes. So many in fact that, at the top end, what separates the "best of the best" is now price. Repeat price. Price. Not the price to the manufacturer, the price to the US...the end buyer. Price.

And here was Scott delivering on that most important sales tactic of all in this market, and doing so quietly. Did that change what Premier got paid for the products ordered and sent to Scott? No. Premier's price-to-dealer was exactly the same. It was Scott that took the margin loss. All suggestions that in order to "stay in business and continue to offer warranty service, we must sell millions of dollars worth of riflescopes" is completely unchanged as Scott's payments to Premier remained constant. Unchanged that is until now....as now you could not pay to get out of this mess.

So why bother to do this? The other dealers. They all believed that they must sell Premier scopes for MORE than Scott was willing to take. After all they had signed something saying NOBODY would take less.

There is now no real reason that a Premier is dramatically better or worse than a U.S.O. or Nightforce or Schmidt & Bender or Zeiss Hensoldt or a Leupold M4 to those that have no real ability to tell the difference. For the vast vast majority of people buying high end scopes any would do them very well. Clicking this, Coating that, Speed dial this, Illumination that, it is all mental masturbation to all but a very few whose lives depend on it. And where could one go to see what they might be buying and FROM WHOM? Here at the Hide. The damage is done.

So....

10,500+ people now know about this. If only 15% of those people might have bought a Premier, firstly from Scott and secondly at ALL and now choose not to...the loss is close to $4,000,000.00. Forget about the other 85%! One can only imagine what would have, could have, happened if Scott had come on to say instead "Folks, great news, a very special Premier buy for the Hide, but I need 50 scopes ordered."

Premier....its about price. If we are lucky enough to do business with a person like Scott and get our price AND great service and genuinely interested support, well we are happy. Did you get your dealer cost from Scott? Yes. Do we care about the price to us ABOVE that cost? Yes, it is a principle concern of ours. Trust me when I tell you, we dislike MAP and what it does to US. Premier, that which you seek, higher prices harms the interest of all those involved. You, your dealer, your customers. Once you get that which you need from your dealers, stand aside and let the dealers and market find price/value.

One last thing, the real story here is about the person who would buy a scope from anyone knowing that their personal pleas for a better price would seal the fate of the person trying to help. I personally think that type of person represents one end of the spectrum. What most of us are reacting to, is the news that Premier can now be placed on that spectrum as well. Its on the <span style="font-style: italic">other</span> end where I would like to believe I am, I believe that is where we all found Scott and LO.

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Desperate men do desperate things....

 

[Johnson184]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

$400,000? Try over a few million dollars in lost sales. Obviously they have to pay for employees and materials, but I'm confident they get near or more than $2,000 per scope for dealer cost.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

misplaced the comma, sorry, I stand corrected and thank you for it.

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Just to point out one thing here. I am sure that there are not many dealers that sell Premier scopes as it is a niche market. If Scott was in fact selling these scopes for just barely above his cost. Then no other dealers would even want to sign up to be a dealer because it would not be worth the effort to them. The ones that were already signed up would quite stocking them because there is no money in if for them. IN the end it would hurt PR and ATI.

So what other choice would PR and ATI have. They would have to either get Scott to stop doing it, or push him out so they could get other accounts and sell more scopes.

I am not picking a side here at all, there is way to much info we do not have to really understand what it going on. Just pointing out the other side of this.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

That is business in 2011....

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheOneTwo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to point out one thing here. I am sure that there are not many dealers that sell Premier scopes as it is a niche market. If Scott was in fact selling these scopes for just barely above his cost. Then no other dealers would even want to sign up to be a dealer because it would not be worth the effort to them. The ones that were already signed up would quite stocking them because there is no money in if for them. IN the end it would hurt PR and ATI.

So what other choice would PR and ATI have. They would have to either get Scott to stop doing it, or push him out so they could get other accounts and sell more scopes.

I am not picking a side here at all, there is way to much info we do not have to really understand what it going on. Just pointing out the other side of this. </div></div>

Scott had the largest volume of sales for Premier scopes in 2009

(per Liberty Optics website)

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I don't doubt that at all. But if 1 dealer controls the Premier market by selling so cheap that no other dealers can compete that hurts Premier.

They are in business to make money, they cannot grow if one dealer controls them all. Especially with ATI in the middle of this. They took on the contract to distribute and sign up new accounts. If no one will sign up because they cannot afford to sell the Premier line for such a low markup, what other choice does ATI have.

 

[sharac]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't doubt that at all. But if 1 dealer controls the Premier market by selling so cheap that no other dealers can compete that hurts Premier.
</div></div>


So what?! Company A produces 100 scopes and their 1 dealer sells 99 for a price CompanyA2Dealer + 1$. Company A sold 99 scopes for a fixed price to dealer and dealer has made 99$. Dealer 2 sells the last scope for CompanyA2Dealer + 10$ and this second dealer just made 10$. Where is that loss to CompanyA all scopes were sold what do they care if 1 or 100 dealers sold their scopes and what was the profit to them?

I would to certain degree agree with actions if CompanyA just shipped scopes to dealers (yeah right HAHA

) and those dealers then would have to sell them and for each sale a certain percentage would go to the dealer and the rest to CompanyA. In that case yeah going below certain (map) price would damage the value of product of CompanyA.

I just can't grasp it that so many people are actually ok with these practices and can't see through the fog that MAP really is. Yeah ON PAPER it might mean advertising but in reality is a squeeze on dealers and end users.

 

[lizzardking308]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To whom it may concern at Premier reticles,
1) Do you remember when you didn't want to repair a Leupold sent in for repair that had your reticle, supposedly because the reticle that you manufactured wasn't available anymore. What happened when the "Hide" got involved??

2) Do you remember when people that paid retail on preorders recieved their scopes after everyone who got them at discounted prices??

3) Do you remember when your scope was originally projected to cost 1500,1700,2000,2200,2500,2700....dollars??

3) Do you remember when Scott took you on to help out your cashflow; to free up some of your funds??

4) Where do you get off thinking that a scope that has parts made in NUNYA (Taiwan) should have the same percieved value as a Schmidt & Bender??

5) Can anyother manufacturer claim your return rate for failures or malfunctions; including Barska or whomever?

6) Whatever happened to your supposed USMC contract??

7) Whatever happened to your Made in the USA claims??

8) Do you think those employees that you fired the day before Christmas had a good one??

9) You knew for years the prices Scott was selling your scopes because you needed the revenue, now he is expendable??

10) Do you pay anything to USO for their MTC design and is their patent on your product while you demand them to pay for your reticle and display your patent?

For years you've been trying to lay it to the American Public!

Like I said an explanation/apology w/ no substance! </div></div>


Going to go out on a limb and guess the answer to all these will be Nunya... Par for the course...

 

[jsthntn247]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

The only dealing I had with Scott, he convinced me that a cheaper scope would fit my needs better than the more expensive one I was looking at. He was absolutely right and I have been happy with my choice. He made less profit on the deal, but gave advise that was best for me the customer. Stand up guy in my book, and if he boycott's Premier, so will I.

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharac</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't doubt that at all. But if 1 dealer controls the Premier market by selling so cheap that no other dealers can compete that hurts Premier.
</div></div>


So what?! Company A produces 100 scopes and their 1 dealer sells 99 for a price CompanyA2Dealer + 1$. Company A sold 99 scopes for a fixed price to dealer and dealer has made 99$. Dealer 2 sells the last scope for CompanyA2Dealer + 10$ and this second dealer just made 10$. Where is that loss to CompanyA all scopes were sold what do they care if 1 or 100 dealers sold their scopes and what was the profit to them?

I would to certain degree agree with actions if CompanyA just shipped scopes to dealers (yeah right HAHA

) and those dealers then would have to sell them and for each sale a certain percentage would go to the dealer and the rest to CompanyA. In that case yeah going below certain (map) price would damage the value of product of CompanyA.

I just can't grasp it that so many people are actually ok with these practices and can't see through the fog that MAP really is. Yeah ON PAPER it might mean advertising but in reality is a squeeze on dealers and end users. </div></div>

Your missing the fact that maybe there would be a company C, D, E, F, G, H. But they will not become dealers because they cannot make any money because they are not willing to sell the scopes barely over cost. So that 100 scope that company A and B sell, could be 300 or 400 scopes if they other companies would play ball.

So how could Premier not want to do that. It is called Synergy my friend, more and more dealers functioning together for Premier means more scopes sold, which means more work and money for them. Which is ultimately why any of us are in business.

 

[fdkay]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Almost makes you wonder who the assclown was when Leupold decided not to do business with them.

 

[Jumper]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

"Synergy" - one of those touchy-feely words bantied about by bean counters and stuffed suits who want to force people to pay them more for their product or service than what its actually worth. Once Premier achieves synergy with its network of dealers who are locked into MAP agreements they will all gather around the campfire hold hands and sing Cum-buy-yah because noone anywhere can buy a Premier scope for less than $3500. Does it cost premier more money to manufacture it? No. Does it cost you more to buy it? Hell yes! I think I'll keep going back to Scott and avoid Premier and ATI.

 

[billyburl2]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

My point of view is of fact that if Premier goes under, who do we call the winner? We are talking about another American company, that produces a product not only for "us", the shooting community. But for our service members...So yay we ran them out of business, for doing the exact same thing that every other manufacture does, it's just their dirty laundry got aired on the Hide!

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jumper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Synergy" - one of those touchy-feely words bantied about by bean counters and stuffed suits who want to force people to pay them more for their product or service than what its actually worth. Once Premier achieves synergy with its network of dealers who are locked into MAP agreements they will all gather around the campfire hold hands and sing Cum-buy-yah because noone anywhere can buy a Premier scope for less than $3500. Does it cost premier more money to manufacture it? No. Does it cost you more to buy it? Hell yes! I think I'll keep going back to Scott and avoid Premier and ATI. </div></div>

LOL, you crack me up. Attacking words now to try and make your point.

 

[sharac]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Well i guess you could see it that way. If you get it up your ass its better to get it from a friend than from a stranger right?

Maybe you should ask yourself how can AMERICAN company have such business practices towards AMERICAN customers.

 

[Rntobey]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

After reading both responses from ati & premier I am convinced that neither president has a clue.

 

[Inogame]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jumper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Synergy" - one of those touchy-feely words bantied about by bean counters and stuffed suits who want to force people to pay them more for their product or service than what its actually worth. Once Premier achieves synergy with its network of dealers who are locked into MAP agreements they will all gather around the campfire hold hands and sing Cum-buy-yah because noone anywhere can buy a Premier scope for less than $3500. Does it cost premier more money to manufacture it? No. Does it cost you more to buy it? Hell yes! I think I'll keep going back to Scott and avoid Premier and ATI. </div></div>


Why does everyone have to hate on the beancounters?
I know, I know... shoot the messenger.

No accountant on earth can defy the market, if the min price is too high there will be no sales. However, I'm sure there were some calculations made looking at the desired market and the margin necessary to not only make money as a manufacturer, grow sales and also give incentive to become a dealer. I hesitate to say any more because I do not have a working knowledge of these companies nor would I describe my knowledge of the market as significant.

Please do not besmirch my people...

lol

-Ino

 

[Wubbman]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point of view is of fact that if Premier goes under, who do we call the winner? We are talking about another American company, that produces a product not only for "us", the shooting community. But for our service members...So yay we ran them out of business, for doing the exact same thing that every other manufacture does, it's just their dirty laundry got aired on the Hide! </div></div>

Fuck 'em. They made their choice.

 

[billyburl2]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

It has already been mentioned that all the manufacture's have pretty much the same policy... I am not really trying to disparage Scott, but he has posted on this site before about getting in trouble for selling to low from somebody else... But it didn't quite blow up this big... Maybe just maybe, it is the guy who broke the contracts fault...

 

[Rntobey]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I have to agree with with wubbman.

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Hey Scott,

Fuck Premier and fuck ATI! I'm quite sure you and I can find another brand that will make myself and anyone else I know looking for a scope, more than happy. You and your family are still one of the best companies I've ever dealt with, and I will continue to do business with you guys....I'll let my money do the rest of the talking...

Take care,

-Pat

 

[*Nine]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Well, this makes future scope purchase decisions easier as I can now dismiss any Premier offering immediately. I looked at a Premier before I ended up buying a S&B a couple of months ago and I sure am glad I went with the S&B.

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Jesus. I came THIS CLOSE to buying a premier for my latest build. In the end I went nightforce f1. Premier won't even be considered on my future builds. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Scot_E]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheOneTwo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your missing the fact that maybe there would be a company C, D, E, F, G, H. But they will not become dealers because they cannot make any money because they are not willing to sell the scopes barely over cost. So that 100 scope that company A and B sell, could be 300 or 400 scopes if they other companies would play ball.

So how could Premier not want to do that. It is called Synergy my friend, more and more dealers functioning together for Premier means more scopes sold, which means more work and money for them. Which is ultimately why any of us are in business. </div></div>


Your theory could make sense until you realize that we all now live in a global world. We don't have to have a Premier dealer on every corner. I can determine if a PR scope is what I need better online compared to going to a local retailer who only wants to push me toward their most profitable model that they have in stock. Using chat forums like SH and others allows me to know exactly what I want and then go buy my scope from anyone that offers a good price and good customer service if I need it. If big business brick and mortar guys (and that is who all of this is trying to protect, lets just be clear)can't make it work then they need to change business practices or be okay with getting left behind.

Manufacturers should be in business, not for synergy and artificially propping up their profit by mandating advertised and minimum sales prices but by offering a product that the consumer can't live without. The consumer should be the ultimate decision maker of what is a good product and what that product should cost based on its competition. Much of business has it all backwards looking to support the dealer/manf relationship more than the end user.

The problem lies in that the end user is often times too lazy and unconcerned about such practices as all they care about is getting their want met in whatever way they can. Sounds to me like a lot of guys are and have been fed up with this kind of nonsense and because it has come to their hobby and has affected a true good guy in the industry they are now standing up! BRAVO!

 

[billyburl2]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1477200
HMMMM....

 

[KillShot]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wubbman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: billyburl2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My point of view is of fact that if Premier goes under, who do we call the winner? We are talking about another American company, that produces a product not only for "us", the shooting community. But for our service members...So yay we ran them out of business, for doing the exact same thing that every other manufacture does, it's just their dirty laundry got aired on the Hide! </div></div>

Fuck 'em. They made their choice.</div></div>

And...+1

 

[Alderleet]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I actually planned on being the market for a PH riflescope in hte next few months.

Fuck that noise, S&B here I come

 

[gugubica]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Holy freakin torch and pichfork!
Ding ding...the bandwagon is leaving, better jump on before its gone.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Scott and LO, i have and will continue to send people his way. But, he got busted, plain and simple. He used to post prices in PMs, why did he stop? Because he knew if they were seen, he would get busted. I dont agree with how this went down, pretty slimey, but Scot knew if ATI caught him, he would be busted...that's what happened.

People can bitch about MAP policies all they want, but they are what they are. I happen to remember a bunch of people going on a crusade against Night force for these very same policies...yet, I think theyare doing OK. Try to get a deal on a new NF...ya can't, they are the same price everywhere.

I am sad that Scott told them to kiss his ass, but respect him right to do so. premiers have features that you can't get on any other scope, that means that to someone looking for all those features, they are the only option. I wish LO was still the best place to get them, but, it is what it is.

The owner of premier may be a dick, I don't know and I don't care, I will never have to interact with him. He is smart enough to hire a kick ass customer relations rep...Paul...and I have personally never experienced anything less than exemplary service from them. The product and the service are what really matters and Premier delivers on both counts.

Scott, sorry you got busted, brother. Legal options may be on the table...don't know. If all these internet lawyers are right, there are options, but consult with an actual attourney and make that call. Best of luck to you, I will continue to be one of your customers.

OK, time to move on to the next dog pile...who is it this time...USO again?
For what its worth I will defend them to.

And...sorry if my statements offend anyone, but I still don't give a shit.

 

[prplhaz72]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scot E</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheOneTwo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Your missing the fact that maybe there would be a company C, D, E, F, G, H. But they will not become dealers because they cannot make any money because they are not willing to sell the scopes barely over cost. So that 100 scope that company A and B sell, could be 300 or 400 scopes if they other companies would play ball.

So how could Premier not want to do that. It is called Synergy my friend, more and more dealers functioning together for Premier means more scopes sold, which means more work and money for them. Which is ultimately why any of us are in business. </div></div>


Your theory could make sense until you realize that we all now live in a global world. We don't have to have a Premier dealer on every corner. I can determine if a PR scope is what I need better online compared to going to a local retailer who only wants to push me toward their most profitable model that they have in stock. Using chat forums like SH and others allows me to know exactly what I want and then go buy my scope from anyone that offers a good price and good customer service if I need it. If big business brick and mortar guys (and that is who all of this is trying to protect, lets just be clear)can't make it work then they need to change business practices or be okay with getting left behind.

Manufacturers should be in business, not for synergy and artificially propping up their profit by mandating advertised and minimum sales prices but by offering a product that the consumer can't live without. The consumer should be the ultimate decision maker of what is a good product and what that product should cost based on its competition. Much of business has it all backwards looking to support the dealer/manf relationship more than the end user.

The problem lies in that the end user is often times too lazy and unconcerned about such practices as all they care about is getting their want met in whatever way they can. Sounds to me like a lot of guys are and have been fed up with this kind of nonsense and because it has come to their hobby and has affected a true good guy in the industry they are now standing up! BRAVO! </div></div>

Of course that theory still makes sense in a global world. It has nothing to do with brick and morter. Again that was just an excuse that premier is using. The fact is that because Scott was giving such good deals to everyone that no one buys premier at any other dealers. That is bad for Premier, they cannot and obviously will not allow one dealer to control most of or eventually their entire market share. That would be ludicrous for any business to do that. They have to protect themselves. It is called diversifying. They cannot rely upon one dealer to do all that for them. What happens if something happened to Scott or his business. They would be screwed.

Again, Premier and ATI are in this business to make money. Talk about touchy feely crap, what was all that that you just went on about that they should just be in business to do something nice for us consumers. They are in business to make money. They may or may not make a great product, but the fact remains it is to make money. If they cannot make money they cannot make scopes. If one dealer undermines there whole business and affects their distribution then they are going to do something about it

I completely agree with you about the consumer being the ultimate decider, that is how a free market is suppose to work. And if that is the choice that everyone makes, that is okay. It would suck for PR and ATI, but that again is just part of doing business.

The real bad thing for Scott is now many other manufactures are going to see what he might do if they start to have problems, he will air all the dirty laundry to the world. Eventually they will just say they will not do business with him at all. Then he will not have his own business. He might have made himself a martyr and looks great to all us consumers, but to the manufactures, he is now on all their radars and they will think twice about their relationship with him. Scott is going to eventually have to change his business model. Which is not a bad thing, it just happens with growth. He is growing fast and many times business grow themselves right out of business. He just can't burn all his relationships like this every time he gets upset.

This is going to be much ugly for everyone including Scott, before this is over.

He got in trouble with Vortex over this same thing, that time he chose to air it as well. He needs to keep his business dealings inside with those he does business with, or he may not have anyone to do business with.

 

[chuc]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

You manufacture something and sell it for a certain price. It sells because of savvy retailers or it's the correct price for the correct product. You need MAP to attract more retailers and dealers. You sign up dealers with contracts and MAP and minimum quantity purchases to even qualify as a dealer. You sign up 20 dealers and guarantee 20 units minimum per dealer. You now got your sales. The problem is... a well respected and well liked retailer or dealer eventually gets the lion's share and also when they offer some "under the table" discounts to customers based on certain unadvertised criteria such and military affiliations or forum membership. After all, we treat family better than everyone else don't we? Premier or ATI may or may not have warned Liberty Optics about their sales tactics of discounting but it really does not matter to us. ATI may even offer discounts themselves and we will not know about it. Other dealers may offer discounts also. What really matters is the human side of the story where a dealer who diligently sold the line got the shaft over a business deal. Business or not... Premier is not the best stuff around and they just screwed over a family member. You sometimes have to look at things from other than a legal or business standpoint.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

OK just loggd in today and the first banner ws from another board sponsr for Premier scopes. i just wanted to see what their advertisments were so i clicked through to their site and low and behold if you click to checkout a Premier scope there is a place for a coupon or discount code. then att he top of their pages they have a 110% guarrenteed lowest price guarentee.

So where does that leave Scott than has never advertised like that still shitcanned. i can not say that the Discount codes work with premier scopes with this company because i did not finalise the order but also to guarentee that they would sell you the scope below anyone else 110% how can that be considered advertising under MAP?

This realy sux when there are other companies out there advertising they will sell it to you cheeper than anyone else.

Scott got shafted. I dont have any malice towards this other company either i have not purchased through them but do know others that have and have been treated verry well but this is total crap when someone offers a personal deal to an individual over the phone and then gets shafted and other optics companies guarentee thay will sell it cheeper than anyone else in their website.

 

[Metonymy]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: i_rep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Each and every manufacturer has some sort of MAP policy. It refers to exactly that. MAP, Min ADVERTISED Price. We all know things get sold every day for less than that. In todays economy as a business when you have a customer that is wanting to spend their hard earned dollars you do anything you can to try and make sure it stays with you.


To me its not a MAP policy. Its a PRICE FIXING POLICY. So tell it for what it really is....it is a MIN SELLING PRICE.


Whatever price that shows up EVEN on an invoice is not a dealer breaking the MAP policy.</div></div>

This sums it up nicely.

MAP is ADVERTISED.

Did Liberty ADVERTISE a price below MAP?
- No

So what the hell is the big deal? So what if Liberty took a cut to THEIR OWN profit margin to help increase their customer base? Any smart business person would do the same, especially in a crappy economy.

I had originally considered Premiere when I went shopping for a high-end scope. I ended up buying a USO.

You can bet your ass I don't regret that decision...

 

[Spanky4888]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I guess this helps me eliminate Premier from my list of optic choices.....what a bunch of bullshit!

 

[azimutha]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Wild_Bill, you need to read the 110% guarantee policy more closely...speaking of things that people have bitched about on here before. It's restrictive but fair to both SWFA and their customers. The guarantee states that they will - provided the product qualifies (and, again, this is just SWFA protecting themselves so they don't get taken to the cleaners) - refund 110% of the DIFFERENCE in price. So if another seller somehow can undersell them on a scope legally and ethically, e.g. for $950 instead of $1000, you could ask them for $55 back.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK just loggd in today and the first banner ws from another board sponsr for Premier scopes. i just wanted to see what their advertisments were so i clicked through to their site and low and behold if you click to checkout a Premier scope there is a place for a coupon or discount code. then att he top of their pages they have a 110% guarrenteed lowest price guarentee.

So where does that leave Scott than has never advertised like that still shitcanned. i can not say that the Discount codes work with premier scopes with this company because i did not finalise the order but also to guarentee that they would sell you the scope below anyone else 110% how can that be considered advertising under MAP?

This realy sux when there are other companies out there advertising they will sell it to you cheeper than anyone else.

Scott got shafted. I dont have any malice towards this other company either i have not purchased through them but do know others that have and have been treated verry well but this is total crap when someone offers a personal deal to an individual over the phone and then gets shafted and other optics companies guarentee thay will sell it cheeper than anyone else in their website.

</div></div>

The banner was around long, long before this dance started.
I'm just say'in.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Actual retailers have never carried scopes like this in my parts (Central MN). To much money for a product no one wants. Some will order them for you but your ordering sight unseen. MAP does nothing for these folks. The only folks who carry these scopes ARE online retailers. Who are you protecting? Let the fit weed out the rest.

Price gouging (MAP) is a joke, its just another way for a retailer to hose consumers.

 

[Goot]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

The way to avoid the whole MAP and price-matching issue is what the big retailers do... They have their OWN MODEL version so they can charge less and not get other retailers pissed because they don't have to price-match it since its technically a different model!

Liberty Optics could have easily asked for a Hide Specific model version that he could sell exclusively!

 

[alt6grunt]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

"Price gouging (MAP) is a joke, its just another way for a retailer to hose consumers". [/quote]

I think it is the mfg that is doing the hosing. The mfg should set minimum price when it leaves the factory. Let competition and capitalism take over from there.

 

[Jumper]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inogame</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jumper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Synergy" - one of those touchy-feely words bantied about by bean counters and stuffed suits who want to force people to pay them more for their product or service than what its actually worth. Once Premier achieves synergy with its network of dealers who are locked into MAP agreements they will all gather around the campfire hold hands and sing Cum-buy-yah because noone anywhere can buy a Premier scope for less than $3500. Does it cost premier more money to manufacture it? No. Does it cost you more to buy it? Hell yes! I think I'll keep going back to Scott and avoid Premier and ATI. </div></div>


Why does everyone have to hate on the beancounters?
I know, I know... shoot the messenger.

No accountant on earth can defy the market, if the min price is too high there will be no sales. However, I'm sure there were some calculations made looking at the desired market and the margin necessary to not only make money as a manufacturer, grow sales and also give incentive to become a dealer. I hesitate to say any more because I do not have a working knowledge of these companies nor would I describe my knowledge of the market as significant.

Please do not besmirch my people...

lol

-Ino </div></div>

All accountants in the present company are excluded of course!

 

[utahcybercowboy]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Funny thing is I bought a PR from LO before they jacked the prices up. I liked my PR thought about getting another one. Asked LO about what kind of a deal could be had. I was told that PR was being strict on MAP and no discount.

I have bought several optics from LO and will always buy from him if he stocks what I want.

PR just a bad taste right now.

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alt6grunt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Price gouging (MAP) is a joke, its just another way for a retailer to hose consumers". </div></div>

I think it is the mfg that is doing the hosing. The mfg should set minimum price when it leaves the factory. Let competition and capitalism take over from there. [/quote]

Well spoken, I am corrected. All this talk about how mfger's need to make money, you still sell your product for whatever you sell it for to the retailer. What do you care what the retailer sells it for?

Oh wait I forgot, we have to F**k as many people as possible in order to keep our prices high. And we double our prices for the government because we can....

 

[DP425]

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gen2mildot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dear Hiders,
My apologies for not responding sooner. Some folks in the industry actually take a break from their day job and try to enjoy the weekend with their families (and Moms). Nevertheless, it is Monday. So back to work.

First, I realize that there won't be much Premier can say here, if anything, now to dissuade peoples' decisions to NOT buy Premier-manufactured , ATI-distributed or GB Stumpp-represented products. I can see how, based on the facts presented by Scott Berish of Liberty Optics, a person would view Premier-ATI-Stumpp as evil and greedy.

Second, it seems that Scott's reputation is beyond reproach. There are always two sides to every story. In this case, one side being the customer-vendor perspective and the other, the legal and economic considerations of a manufacturer-vendor engagement.

I hope my response here meets with the approval of Snipershide and its moderators. We are not currently a vendor or paid advertiser, but we have supported Snipershide since its inception through past advertising and product donation. Though lengthy, this response is necessary to inform the public of the facts surrounding the suspension of Liberty Optics' dealer account.

To begin with, I think it's important to identify the structure of Premier and its affiliates.

Definitions:

1. Premier Reticles, Ltd is a manufacturer of high quality, high performance riflescopes. A 3rd generation, family owned and operated American company, which employs Americans. Chris Thomas is President.

2. Optronika GmbH , located in Biebertal, Germany, is an independent company founded by Chris Thomas in 2007 which employs an opto-mechanical engineering staff, formerly of Schmidt & Bender. All designs for Premier products originate here as well as the sourcing of critical high-precision components used to assemble riflescopes in Winchester, VA. Chris Thomas is President.

3. Armament Technology Incorporated (ATI), a Canadian company located in Halifax, Nova Scotia is an independent company contracted to serve as Master Distributor for North America for Premier Tactical riflescopes. ATI acts as an inventory holding company for which Premier Tactical products are distributed throughout a dealer network. Andrew Webber is President.

4. GB Stumpp and Associates, Inc. is an independent factory representation group engaged by Premier Reticles to solicit and establish storefront retailer (dealer) accounts in the Northeast US territory, for the purposes of stocking and selling Premier products. Terry Dean is President.

In January 2011, GB Stumpp was contracted to establish dealer accounts in the NE US. These factory reps, at their own expense travel state by state, dealer by dealer, informing and educating retailers about the quality and reputation of Premier riflescopes. One of the first questions after "what is my price?" is "do you enforce MAP?". Brick-and-Mortar dealers live by a separate sets of costs vs. certain internet retailers. The must make enough margin in order to: 1) buy and stock the product (customers need to fondle the product), 2) pay employees and 3), pay their overhead costs-just to name a few. Of course, in this day and age the biggest threat to store-front retailers is the internet. Though some consumers choose to purchase products online, the fact remains that store-front retail sales account for the vast majority of riflescope sales-though not yet for Premier, but if internet retailers are not kept in check, your local gun shop with its higher costs of operations WILL go out of business.

In the 3+ months of discussions with potential Premier dealers, the name Liberty Optics came up several times. Terry Dean took it upon himself to not just call Scott for pricing, but also to consummate a purchase. Per the following conversations with Terry, he assured me of his lack of knowledge of Snipershide and that he did NOT mention being a "Hider" in order to get a "good price". On 19-April-2011, Terry simply called and asked for a price for a Premier Heritage 5-25x56mm Tactical and was NOT quoted MAP, but was offered a price substantially lower than MAP. In fact $100s of dollars less. He placed his order immediately and got the scope two days later. Note: This was less than a week after the "stern email" dated 13-April-2011, sent to all Premier dealers admonishing them to avoid such practices. Premier nor ATI had any knowledge of Terry's intentions or actions.

On Friday 29 April 2011, opening day of the NRA Show in Pittsburgh, Terry presented to me his new 5-25x and the Sales Receipt, dated 19-April-2011, from Liberty Optics. Upon receipt of an email copy of this Sales Receipt, ATI contacted Scott via telephone and got the response that the "Terry Dean purchase discount was for a credit against previous purchases...". ATI advises that they have a copy of the bill of sale and there is no credit referenced on it. When pressed to substantiate this credit, Liberty states they need to call back. Upon a call-back, Liberty advises there was no credit, it was sold at the discounted price.

Up until this point, Premier and ATI did not take any action against Liberty Optics as there was no tangible proof that such pricing was happening. After countless discussions, verbal and written agreements, Scott Berish continued to sell scopes at highly discounted prices. Combined with his inability to honor his commitments and agreements, and the reluctance of new dealers taking on the Premier lines of products, Premier and ATI felt it necessary to finally take action. It should realized that the terms of Scott’s dealership status were same terms as all Premier dealers conduct their business under. Premier and/or ATI reserve the right to suspend, and if need be, terminate, dealer status if any of the provisions are violated. This doesn't have as much to do with MAP as it does a legal contract where the undersigned acknowledges the provisions associated with such violations.

Since Scott has been nice enough to share <span style="font-style: italic">excerpts</span> from intercompany documents between ATI and Liberty Optics, and the interdealer communique' , I don't think it's necessary to outline their contents. However, I want to remind the reader that we did NOT terminate the LO's dealer account, we simply "suspended" it. Here I will quote the Suspension Letter verbatim. <span style="color: #FF6666">Red text</span> indicates what was left out of Scott's opening remarks in this thread:

<span style="font-style: italic">"<span style="color: #FF6666">April 29, 2011

Liberty Optics LLC
Attn: Scott Berish
PO Box 2554
900 Riverside Rd
Kalispell MT 59901
U.S.A.</span>

Dear Mr. Berish,

It has been presented to us that your company has been offering Premier Reticles 'Heritage' Tactical riflescopes directly to consumers at pricing significantly below Minimum Advertised Price (MAP).
This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing.<span style="color: #FF6666">As such, it contravenes article 11 of our published Terms as detailed in our 'Distributor Pricing' schedule.</span>
Please therefore be advised that your Dealer Account with Armament Technology Incorporated, sole Master Distributor for the Premier 'Heritage' Tactical line of products, is hereby immediately suspended. <span style="color: #FF6666"> Your current Purchase Orders #5 (dated 21-April-2011) and #6 (dated 26-April-2011) will not be satisfied until such time that payment for both orders plus Liberty's outstanding account balance is received by Armament Technology Incorporated.

At that time, we will arrange shipment of the orders either collect or to your UPS account.
Assuming your outstanding balances are paid within terms, we are willing to review the status of your account in 90 days time.

Regards,

E. J. (Ted) Milner.
Vice President
</span>"</span>
In our opinion, we have given Liberty Optics several chances in the past couple years to adjust his business practices where Premier products are concerned. Premier nor ATI, intended this to embarrass Scott in any way. Scott chose to air these internal communications publicly.

Furthermore, in order for Premier Reticles to stay in business and continue to offer warranty service, we must sell millions of dollars worth of riflescopes. The actions of Liberty Optics or any such offending account, and their refusal to abide by legally binding agreements has forced us to the decision to "suspend" their dealer status. Therefore, to protect the investments of both existing and new dealers, who have signed the same agreements, we must weed out dealers who refuse to play by the rules.

In closing and due to the amount of expletives used in conjunction with Premier, its products, ATI and GB Stumpp et al, here on SnipersHide, we will not offer any further responses or posts concerning this matter.

Should anyone have additional questions or comments, please email me directly at: [email protected]. I will do my best to respond to <span style="font-style: italic">respectful</span> requests in a timely and professional manner.

Emails to ATI can be sent to: [email protected]

Sincerely,

Chris Thomas, President
Premier Reticles
</div></div>



Seems you just affirmed that you MAP pricing has nothing to do with advertised, but rather is a fixed selling price.

Don't be a fag, call it what it is. If you require it to be sold at that price, call it MRSP (Manufacture Required Selling Price). Calling it MAP is just a back-handed lie.