Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

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xrob

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Dec 19, 2011
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#1
Hello, I weight sorted my RP brass and I am curious how to adjust the powder charge per case weight.

ex.
My load is 49.5 grains with 181 grain Nosler cases.

I have 191, 192, 193 and 194 grain RP cases.

How should I, would you, adjust the powder load for these cases? Is it a 1 to 1 ratio?

Thank you
 
#3
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

It is very difficult to determine where a difference in weight in brass comes from, it could simply some from a slight difference in the extractor cut and have nothing to do with actual case capacity. A lot of people will tell you that weight sorting brass of the same head stamp is a waste of time; personally I do it because it only takes a few seconds per piece of brass with an electronic scale. Some people will say I’m wasting time but I would sort the brass into groups of like weights within about 1% of their total weight to be shot separately. I would not worry about adjusting your powder charges for such a small difference in weight with brass of the same head stamp.

You may want to measure the case capacity of both the Remington and Nosler brass with H2O to see if there is a sizeable difference between the brands of brass and if there is one that has a smaller capacity then it might not be a bad idea to back off your starting charge by a similar percentage of the drop in case capacity.
 
#4
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?


Some reloader weigh the bullets,but most good brands vary little.Never heard of weighing the cases.It's what in the cases and what it pushs (being the powder and the bullet)that needs attention. I use to weight my bullet but found that a good brand are usally pretty close.I do spot check. If I was shooting out to 1000 yds,I would weigh the bullet.This is the way I do it .Happy reloading!!
smile.gif
 
#5
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Never understood why some people weigh cases. Much more effective to measure h2o case capacity and adjust powder charge up or down accordingly...
 
#6
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Personally if you are not shooting bench rest and your interested in shooting long range. I would load and shoot more instead of case sorting. With a good rifle(3/4 moa) you can invest in better things such as shooting and wind calls. George garner once told me just fucken load and shoot. Since that day I have done just that. I did not notice any reduction in groups when I would case sort, just simply buy cases from the same lot.
 
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#7
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

I understand what you are trying to do (sort cases so that they have similar case powder capacity to that they perform the same), but tend to agree that weight sorting cases is not necessarily going to get you to the promised land.

If you are looking for cases that have equal case volume, then the only way to determine that is to do volume sorting.

I have been known to sort cases by weight, and still do, but its mostly an attempt to sort out the true outliers from the group, be they very high or very low in mass. I tend to sort into multi-grain lots, using the very high and very low as my test beds for dummy rounds and setting up my neck turning mandrels.

Jeffvn
 
#8
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Thanks for all the replies fellas.


Ok so I refined my thoughts, thanks to you guys.

I measured the Nosler volume and the RP's.

With about 11 grains difference in case weight, there is only .5 grains difference in H2O capacity; RP being more.

68 grains H2O - Nosler

68.5 grains H2O - RP.
That's .73% more in the RP.

Should I increase the charge by .73% for the RP?

Also, I was expecting the heavier RP to have less capacity, not more. Weird.
 
#10
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XRob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the replies fellas.


Ok so I refined my thoughts, thanks to you guys.

I measured the Nosler volume and the RP's.

With about 11 grains difference in case weight, there is only .5 grains difference in H2O capacity; RP being more.

68 grains H2O - Nosler

68.5 grains H2O - RP.
That's .73% more in the RP.

Should I increase the charge by .73% for the RP?

Also, I was expecting the heavier RP to have less capacity, not more. Weird.

</div></div>

The best thing to do is build up a load for each. I have a .243AI that I had built a load for using Winchester brass and the same load in Nosler brass was blowing out the primers.
 
#12
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Yeah I don't think you could figure .5 grs powder more or less based on brass weight. I would develop a load based on performance. It could be relative but the case neck tension could play a part too. Just my humble opinion. Just trying to say there's other variables that make a difference too.
 
#13
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Assuming you are loading for the 30-06 68.0 grains of water is considered the "normal" case capacity of virgin or FL sized brass. However I would not recommend you immediately add .5 grains to your powder charges of Remington brass, the odds of something catastrophic happening due to starting ½ of a grain over a recommended starting charge are almost non-existent. But every gun is different and what may be safe in some guns may not be safe in yours. Through the load development process you may find that you can load the Remington brass slightly hotter than the Nosler brass, but assuming so right from the start due to a small increase in case capacity could have unwanted results. On the flip side of that coin if you acquire or buy some new brass that has less case capacity than the “standard” 68.0 grains of H2O I would definitely lower the starting charge accordingly.
 
#14
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Weight sorting Remington brass...LMAO, this thread belongs in Maggie's Drawers.
This thread already contains proof that even the people who sort brass by weight have no idea WHY they do it anyway. After admitting that there is no correlation in case capacity and weight, that the weight can actually reside in a place completely unrelated to case capacity, there are still people who will waste their time with such shenanigans. I am not saying they are evil shenanigans but certainly not to be taken seriously. Figuring case capacity is a whole nother ballgame and I think has no place in these pages, it serves to confuse those who ultimately want to get the cart before the horse. Those who would fly before they walk and who really don't do the kind of shooting that would benefit from benchrest voodoo.
I own a custom tactical rifle in 30-06 and when I found the correct load for the rifle it does not seem to care which brass I load of the two I have tried so far. I have loaded Lapua several times fired and pulled down LC69 reprimed with BR2 primers and at 1000yds there is little difference in accuracy and no differenc in POI. When you get your load where it needs to be your brass will not matter as long as it will stand the load.
I wouldn't expact too much if I was loading Remington brass. It is fine for hunting and plinking. I own big piles of Remington but it is certainly not my go to accuracy brass.
 
#15
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Weight sorting Remington brass...LMAO, this thread belongs in Maggie's Drawers.
<span style="color: #FF0000">So only Lapua brass or re-laimed military brass is worth anyones time? I disagree.</span>

Figuring case capacity is a whole nother ballgame and I think has no place in these pages, <span style="color: #FF0000">Please tell me where you would put this at? I figure it belongs under the reloading section. I now understand H2o capacity and its worth, thanks to my post and others responses.</span>

I own a custom tactical rifle in 30-06 and when I found the correct load for the rifle it does not seem to care which brass I load of the two I have tried so far. I have loaded Lapua several times fired and pulled down LC69 reprimed with BR2 primers and at 1000yds there is little difference in accuracy and no differenc in POI. When you get your load where it needs to be your brass will not matter as long as it will stand the load.
<span style="color: #FF0000">I own a bone stock factory 30-06 and it shoots 4-5 shot ragged holes now that I found the correct load, I will test your statement using RP, FC and Winchester brass, we'll see if the same load works with all the cases. I hope it does, would be nice, but I think the groups will open up. color]
I wouldn't expact too much if I was loading Remington brass. It is fine for hunting and plinking. I own big piles of Remington but it is certainly not my go to accuracy brass. [color:#FF0000]I know there is competitive shooters that use RP brass for 1000yd shoots and they sort their brass aswell.</span> </div></div>
Shot some today and found a couple good loads with Varget and IMR 4350.
Varget
294shotgroupjpg.jpg
Varget4932-12-12.jpg

IMR 4350 5 shots
target2-12-12563imr.jpg
 
#16
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

No I guess I failed to make my point. Weight sorting brass of any kind is useless. No one can agree what purpose it serves. When someone can tell me what it does EXACTLY then I will go back to sorting my brass. My sorted brass shot just like my unsorted brass and I am not the only person here to have that experience.
I did not say Lapua and LC is the only brass worth a damn. If you put Winchester in the mix those 3 are at the top I can guarantee you that. I can tell you that over 30 years of using every brass known to man Remington shakes out just a bit above some of the worst surplus stuff I have used.
When I said water capacity does not belong in these pages I mean it doesn't belong on this board. This is a tactical website not a benchrest website. Sorting your brass by water capacity will net results you can likely never actually quantify using a tactical rifle. Once again you missed my point. My point being the degree of intense intellectual discussion on obscure and questionable benchrest voodoo.
That is some great shooting and some great groups but they are nothing spectacular at 100yds...even from a bone stock rifle. You have done some fine loading there but small inconsistencies in case volume will not show up at 100yds in your group. As a matter of fact those groups are no indication whatsoever of their performance potential at longer ranges...I guarantee you that.
 
#17
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

Some info from ML McPherson. Again, not my opinion just out of his book.

"Weight variation, correct or not, can reflect internal volume variation."
-ML McPherson

This might be the info that OP is looking for:

"I simply adjust the powder charge to compensate for variations in capacity. I don't intermix loads from different case weight groups during any shooting session' all the loads in the mag and in reserve are from the same weight group. For all rifle cartridges, using near case capacity charges, i adjust the powder charge .6 grain for each 10 grains of case weight variation. If I switch to 5 grain heavier cases, I reduce the charge by .3 grain and am certain to get nearly identical velocity and very similar pressure. The case is heavier, reduce the powder charge, if the case is lighter, increase the powder charge."
-ML McPherson



We can assume that the cases are different if the masses are different. Where that difference in mass comes from could be numerous things.


Would you rather shoot 5 cases with identical mass or 5 cases with different masses? IMO its worth the 10 minutes to sort out the brass.
 
#18
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

x-rob---In time you will reach similar conclusions to those voiced here. Why? Your time is your most valuable commodity. My conclusions: 1)Remington brass tolerances (wall thickness) and loaded Rem 308 match ammo tolerances(bullet runout) are inconsistent. Never weighed Rem. cases after noting the above. 2)case weight comparisons should be made after neck and primer pocket trueing ,fire forming and subsequently trimming to length.This assumes the brass is not excessively long for your rifles chamber. Lots of work for a standard saami chamber- unless you intend to both index and necksize w/ occasional shoulder bump. The thousand yard benchrest shooter will also measure the case volume for a select lot (200-400) of brass dedicated to that barrel to minimize vertical. 3)M.L. McPherson is very knowledgeable--"The Man" for internal ballistics research. 4)Don't waste time matchprepping brass if you haven't determined the pressure handling capabilities of that bras for the load your gun likes--enlarged primer pockets may result from soft brass, an oversized chamber or an overpressure load. I doubt that Rem and Win brass exibit the same metallurgical properties. If possible, buy Lapua. Load it and shoot it. Anneal when needed. Nuff said
 
#19
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

there is a place for weigh sorting, I pick up thousands of 223 in a year, 90 % will weigh 93-98 grains but some will go down to 65 gr and others to 108 gr, obviously the powder capacity/pressure is significantly different. I tried putting 10 of a mild load that went in standard 94 gr brass in some 104 gr brass, it shot higher by 4 inches at 200 yds, Sorting by headstamp would work as well but the print is freaking small and it takes a lot longer, since I already have them divided I do different loads with brass in 2-3 gr lots.

in 308/ 3006 it may take 15-20 gr differences in brass weight to be a useful sorting tool and the headstamps are much easier to see
 
#20
Re: Weight Sorting brass & different powder charge ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azhank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some info from ML McPherson. Again, not my opinion just out of his book.

"Weight variation, correct or not, can reflect internal volume variation."
-ML McPherson

This might be the info that OP is looking for:

"I simply adjust the powder charge to compensate for variations in capacity. I don't intermix loads from different case weight groups during any shooting session' all the loads in the mag and in reserve are from the same weight group. For all rifle cartridges, using near case capacity charges, i adjust the powder charge .6 grain for each 10 grains of case weight variation. If I switch to 5 grain heavier cases, I reduce the charge by .3 grain and am certain to get nearly identical velocity and very similar pressure. The case is heavier, reduce the powder charge, if the case is lighter, increase the powder charge."
-ML McPherson



We can assume that the cases are different if the masses are different. Where that difference in mass comes from could be numerous things.


Would you rather shoot 5 cases with identical mass or 5 cases with different masses? IMO its worth the 10 minutes to sort out the brass. </div></div>

THANK YOU!!

This is exactly what I was looking for. Good stuff.
 
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