Wells Fargo sues Gunwerks in Federal Court

[JohnnyUno]

Then I applaud you for your ability to multi task. Maybe it’s a reason I’m not a millionaire. Are you offended because the shoe fits?

Or maybe the comment is directed toward the nay sayers who think Gunwerks rifles are over priced and that there’s no market to who we sell for?

regardless on however you want to receive my comment, I’m gonna stand behind the company that allows me to put food on the table.

I'm not offended at anything, just taking note of your condescending remarks. No offense, as I don't know you from Adam, but I do think your "system" is overpriced. Very nice products for sure, but the same can be accomplished for much less money. Instead of attending long range schools of which you brag about, I'd much rather run my businesses and give away $$$$ to those in need instead. I think that's time better spent than what you're doing, but hey, I don't blame you one bit for taking up for your employer.

 

[JohnnyUno]

Please read my official statement. Here's the takeaways:

Delinquent sales tax: fake news (5 minutes to look it up)
Delinquent vendor payments: fake news

We stroked a cash payment to Wells Fargo today for nearly 3 million bucks! True story.

We tried to get fair treatment, and stood up for our rights, without rolling over at the first sign of pressure. I might be a little too cocky. WF pulled out the big guns, we settled our obligation.

One other point of clarification regarding the business development grant. City of Cody got the money, built a building. We've agreed to lease it for 20 years, I signed a personal guarantee - for 20 years! Gunwerks fronted the 5 acres of land and hundreds of hours of design and management oversight during construction.

https://www.gunwerks.com/blog/press-releases-5/post/official-statement-from-gunwerks-ceo-regarding-wells-fargo-litigation-225#scrollTop=0

I'll accept apologies via pm if you don't want to post them publicly....

Congrats on getting your financial situation in shape, and congrats on the fine asss shot on your ram at the 13:20 mark.

 

[r.ellison2010]

I don't accept your post as anything but gossip per your own words.
Because when you use words in your post such as we and us in the same sentence you are injecting yourself
That is not what I would call "what you heard"
If you are confused see post #147

I don't think you understand what quotations are, and I'm not surprised. The words "we" and "us" were the words of somebody else. Not my words. That's why they were in quotations. Maybe try reading it again, or have someone else who knows how to read (if you know anyone) read it to you out loud and very slowly so you can comprehend? I'm confident you will be less confused once you get it one of these days.

 

[jcmullis2]

I doubt his initial intent was to defraud anyone. He likely made poor decisions, poorly timed.

I also would not jump to concluding criminal intent, fraud or that owner is prospering. It could be the case but might not.

Those who make unfounded accusations are actually sharing insight into their character and motivations.

Not an unfounded accusation to say he collected taxes and kept the money. That’s a fact. With that one fact we know he’s a thief. The only question is who else he stole from and how much he clipped them for. I love it when people choose to ignore the facts. Go ahead and start that poor sob a go fund me legal defense fund and give him some money. Poor guy lost everything. smdh

 

[Dthomas3523]

Well, there’s both sides now. If lawsuit is dropped and gunwerks keeps going, good for them and hopefully it’s just a minor bleep on radar. As with everything, I’m sure some of the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Regardless of what niche you’re in, as long as a company isn’t screwing over customers or employees, the more the better. Employees of gunwerks seems happy there, so that’s always good.

I don’t own one of their packages, but I own expensive rifle kits. So I can see the appeal.

 

[Spblademaker]

 

[Aaron Davidson]

View attachment 7333807

Definitely! Trying to stand up to a big bank like Wells Fargo, what was I thinking!?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

$365k in sales taxes due?

That would take $4M in local direct to consumer sales?

What was the sales tax rate? Anyway, this is always a sign that the company is in trouble and need that rate to make up for losses. It is also an indicator of a thief within the organization but embezzlement is not a defense. Revenue departments and banks don't go after assets unless bills aren't paid. It doesn't take a genius to know how loans as well as tax evasions work. Firearm companies have a long history of being lousy accountants and the first thing to cut is the sales tax rate. If it is a buyer sales tax rather than a sellers than you have another angle of customers getting ripped.

 

[RePp]

So everything's paid off and theres no issue? Taxes are good and wells fargo loan is done? Sounds like a little blip and not a big deal.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

thank you, I looked at Wyoming reports for this year and neither gunwerks or Aaron are listed. On delinquent tax payer list

It may not be if they are under audit. Collections go into suspense.

 

[Ledzep]

Firearm companies have a long history of being lousy accountants ...

Heard that. I was a little surprised to see one in particular circling in the comments here. He likes to get into other people's shit, though.

"I'm pretty sure the way we do our taxes isn't legal"... followed up a couple years later with an IRS peepee slap for just a little bit more than $57. What was that other thing he said.. The above is a direct quote, this is more of a paraphrase, "Some of us would rather take a bullet than steal"? Ego is a hell of a drug.

 

[Aaron Davidson]

What was the sales tax rate? Anyway, this is always a sign that the company is in trouble and need that rate to make up for losses. It is also an indicator of a thief within the organization but embezzlement is not a defense. Revenue departments and banks don't go after assets unless bills aren't paid. It doesn't take a genius to know how loans as well as tax evasions work. Firearm companies have a long history of being lousy accountants and the first thing to cut is the sales tax rate. If it is a buyer sales tax rather than a sellers than you have another angle of customers getting ripped.

The sales tax claim was fake news!

Easy for anyone to verify. Example for Wyoming list:

Delinquent Taxpayer List - Wyoming Department of Revenue

revenue.wyo.gov

 

[wompa]

99.9% of businesses would've refinanced if they wanted better terms, you and your super duper lawyer could've done this out of public sight and at the benefit of both parties.

In decades of underwriting credit I’ve never seen a borrower; default, break covenant, put the company in legal jeopardy just to renegotiate borrowing terms.
I would suggest getting far better council.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Just saying as a state revenuer once under audit the taxpayer is taken out of collections for the audit period and doesn't return to collections until the audit is assessed. Thus, it is no longer delinquency until the taxpayer comes out of the audit, an assessment is created, and exhausted all rights and remedies. It could be a couple of years or more. Taxpayers under state audit become confidential information because FTI is involved so they don't show up on a public delinquent list.

I really don't care about GW and it's financial problems or not. I'm just sayin' based on my experience single member LLCs typically have little to no internal controls and second only to sole props when it comes to audit risk. I'm happy to see you settled with the bank at least. Time will tell.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

So CLEARLY GW is going and/or has already filed a lawsuit for unlimited dollars against WF for the "fake news" shit right?

Especially with GW statements of standing up against the big bank....this would be the fastest and easiest standing up anyone has ever seen.

Lawyers would be lining up to take that case for no money upfront because it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to pull 3 bank accounts and verify GW story against WF.

It would take a lawyer about 5 minutes to check GW Accounts Payable and bank statements to verify no loans were in default.
It would take a lawyer about 5 minutes to call the State Tax Office(not look on a website) and verify no taxes are owed.

ALL that would equal to nothing but a HUGE payday and full props "stand up" to a big bank....

I just do not see how a business owner can acknowledge the harm this situation has caused to his businesses reputation but not go after the liars.....

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[kriller134]

At the end of the day who fucking cares is my opinion. Gunwerks said they paid their bill then so be it. What I do care about is not running @velayo_0317 off the site with bullshit bickering. He’s a wealth of knowledge and is willing to share it for FREE. His videos are great and we should support someone that is willing to share great info. That’s my take on it.

 

[arrow179]

Interesting read. I hope Gunwerks wins this battle! We all know how Wells Fargo likes to be on the straight and narrow...lol

nothing like opening new bank accounts for customers without their knowledge!

 

[spife7980]

So what makes you think some of us aren't doing the same thing? You're condescending remarks on this subject remind me of something your CEO would say. Hopefully it isn't rubbing off on you too.

 

[JohnnyUno]

As I said, I hate big banks. Best days of my business life were when we got out of debt and didn't need them anymore. That, and doing business with a Credit Union. That being said, I highly doubt if anyone welded a pen in GW's hand and forced them to sign WF's loan documents. If you didn't know what you were signing you shouldn't have signed it. I'm betting Davidson's rebuttal is about as 100% true as WF's, otherwise I'd have WF's ass in court immediately, and I'd bet that ain't gonna happen.

 

[AKMarty]

So many comments and so little info.

Loud reporter, many echos, many assumptions/speculations...

 

[sandwarrior]

Hi,

So CLEARLY GW is going and/or has already filed a lawsuit for unlimited dollars against WF for the "fake news" shit right?

Especially with GW statements of standing up against the big bank....this would be the fastest and easiest standing up anyone has ever seen.

Lawyers would be lining up to take that case for no money upfront because it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to pull 3 bank accounts and verify GW story against WF.

It would take a lawyer about 5 minutes to check GW Accounts Payable and bank statements to verify no loans were in default.
It would take a lawyer about 5 minutes to call the State Tax Office(not look on a website) and verify no taxes are owed.

ALL that would equal to nothing but a HUGE payday and full props "stand up" to a big bank....

I just do not see how a business owner can acknowledge the harm this situation has caused to his businesses reputation but not go after the liars.....

Sincerely,
Theis

The issue came to a settlement. No further need for litigation...Or did you miss that?

 

[RePp]

The issue came to a settlement. No further need for litigation...Or did you miss that?

If someone causes my business to unjustly lose money I would be taking them to court

 

[sandwarrior]

If someone causes my business to unjustly lose money I would be taking them to court

That's what the settlement is. No one is going to go to court anymore. And, for all your tough talk about taking on WF, you'll see that while you may be right, it's gonna take a ton of time in court and money. Can you afford that? To me this is where the shit really lies. All the crap WF pulled on GW and they know they are pretty gonna get away with most of it. At worst, they're gonna get a "stop it" order from the courts. It ain't just GW they pulled this on.

I promise you, you don't have the time or money to sit there in court and fight them. Some joe-blow, sure. But those guys have a lot sowed up before they ever get going.

 

[ohiofarmer]

That's what the settlement is. No one is going to go to court anymore. And, for all your tough talk about taking on WF, you'll see that while you may be right, it's gonna take a ton of time in court and money. Can you afford that? To me this is where the shit really lies. All the crap WF pulled on GW and they know they are pretty gonna get away with most of it. At worst, they're gonna get a "stop it" order from the courts. It ain't just GW they pulled this on.

I promise you, you don't have the time or money to sit there in court and fight them. Some joe-blow, sure. But those guys have a lot sowed up before they ever get going.

Sandwarrior, libel might just be worth pursuing regardless of the cost. And, as some have previously stated (Theis), plenty of law firms would work for free on the front end if the mistruths are as some state.

 

[TacosGigante]

Sandwarrior, libel might just be worth pursuing regardless of the cost. And, as some have previously stated (Theis), plenty of law firms would work for free on the front end if the mistruths are as some state.

FWIW Statements made to a court in the course of litigation are frequently privileged and can't give rise to a defamation claim. I'm not an expert on Wyoming law but there is likely at least some litigation privilege there.

 

[ohiofarmer]

FWIW Statements made to a court in the course of litigation are frequently privileged and can't give rise to a defamation claim. I'm not an expert on Wyoming law but there is likely at least some litigation privilege there.

TacosGigante, I hadn’t considered that. Good point. Clearly this isn’t my strong suit. It would still seem that great damage could be done to a business/reputation if this were abused. I’ll let the experts chime-in, but I‘d think there must be some recourse for (reported) falsehoods and defamation.

 

[TacosGigante]

TacosGigante, I hadn’t considered that. Good point. Clearly this isn’t my strong suit. It would still seem that great damage could be done to a business/reputation if this were abused. I’ll let the experts chime-in, but I‘d think there must be some recourse for (reported) falsehoods and defamation.

What is supposed to happen is that a lawyer who knowingly files a false complain is sanctioned by the court under "Rule 11" (at least in Federal civil procedure, which most state systems closely follow). However Rule 11 is very rarely invoked. None of this is to say that a Rule 11 motion would be appropriate here. I have no idea.

 

[plong]

What is supposed to happen is that a lawyer who knowingly files a false complain is sanctioned by the court under "Rule 11" (at least in Federal civil procedure, which most state systems closely follow). However Rule 11 is very rarely invoked. None of this is to say that a Rule 11 motion would be appropriate here. I have no idea.

the operative phrase bing “supposed”

 

[wompa]

Curiosity would have me question why both parties agreed to appointing a receiver. Typically the only time a receiver is appointed through the courts is during disposition of assets so they can be sorted out between priority and other creditors. But oh well, its all good.

 

[jzerfoss]

Man..... The fudds really came out for this thread. As long as Gunwerks is treating their customers and employees good and the product is as advertised the rest isn't any of our business. Mandatory taxes by state and federal government (while somewhat of a necessary evil at times) are extortion and criminal by their own definition. So if you think being a bit behind on extortion payments makes you immoral or a bad company you've obviously forgotten some of this country's founding principals.

I'm by no means anti-bank but they are about as scummy as scummy gets when it comes to business practices so I have very little sympathy for them. As long as Gunwerks treats their customers and employees well they'll definitely have my support. Those who came out with torches and pitchforks against Gunwerks and supported taxes and a bank without any actual knowledge of the situation will not get a cent of my money.

 

[808caliber]

Man..... The fudds really came out for this thread. As long as Gunwerks is treating their customers and employees good and the product is as advertised the rest isn't any of our business. Mandatory taxes by state and federal government (while somewhat of a necessary evil at times) are extortion and criminal by their own definition. So if you think being a bit behind on extortion payments makes you immoral or a bad company you've obviously forgotten some of this country's founding principals.

I'm by no means anti-bank but they are about as scummy as scummy gets when it comes to business practices so I have very little sympathy for them. As long as Gunwerks treats their customers and employees well they'll definitely have my support. Those who came out with torches and pitchforks against Gunwerks and supported taxes and a bank without any actual knowledge of the situation will not get a cent of my money.

Ya it seemed as if these people were waiting for something to be against gunwerks so they could finally express their dissastisfication with them for whatever reason. Much like liberals today trying their hardest to find the next greatest attack on Trump with no evidence, jump on the story immediately, and then find out the truth and climb back into their hole. I have no skin in this game, ive only got one experience with GW, bought a magnus stock and had no issues with my experience. Caylen also responded to all my DMs prior to me ordering as well. I hope they continue to thrive for many years to come. Even if ill prob never buy their rifle systems in my lifetime. Mahalo @velayo_0317 for the educational material you offer us.

 

[jbuck88]

Either way. I hope anyone who ventures out on their own the best luck. There are a lot of games to play to get the banks to help, some are harder line then others. In the end trump, forgive the politics, has taught the art of the deal and sometimes it takes *laying it all on the line* to negotiate.

I hope that GW thrives!!!!!

 

[daylate]

Not an unfounded accusation to say he collected taxes and kept the money. That’s a fact. With that one fact we know he’s a thief. The only question is who else he stole from and how much he clipped them for. I love it when people choose to ignore the facts. Go ahead and start that poor sob a go fund me legal defense fund and give him some money. Poor guy lost everything. smdh

Still trying to figure out where all these Facts you are referring to are? I didn't know that there had already been a trial . All I see is accusations...You're either in the know or just don't like GW....

 

[jcmullis2]

There’s a saying from the early 1900’s, “A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on.” I’d be interested to hear an honest viewpoint from Gunwerk’s side of the equation. I would expect that their messaging department is on overtime at this point.

As another mentioned, banks are in it to win. That’s their job. I can imagine that WF, with their recent losses and share price nightmares are mandated to take off the gloves. They probably don’t want an abject failure, but are sure to be structuring the chessboard for an advantage. In fact, they had calculated their Plan B advantage pre-loan. Maybe Gunwerks is killing it and WF wants better terms. Maybe Gunwerks is jerking their chain and WF went nuclear. Who knows? Definitely not us.

I am willing to bet that Gunwerks has enough motivation, innovation and momentum to go for several more rounds. Of concern is the sales tax conundrum. I don’t know enough about the degree of rigor, precision and professionalism at the State of Wyoming Sales Tax Dept to evaluate this one. I do know that it took me 18 months to convince the State of California that I had indeed paid my payroll taxes for fiscal year 2017, two years after the fact; something that could have been resolved in about 15 minutes by rational consenting adults. That was fun.

I wish Gunwerks well and Godspeed, as we probably need more of what Gunwerks does and less of what Wells Fargo is capable of.

I respectfully disagree. At a minimum what GWs does is collect money for taxes and keeps it. In other words they fuck people. The owner wants everyone to believe this was just a few innocent mistakes. Proof of payment shouldn’t take but a minute to produce. GW hasn’t done that. Instead GW’s played the anti gun card and that really causes doubt. When that “joker card” is played it’s typically out of desperation and the only card available. WF isn’t anti gun they don’t care where the money comes from so long as it comes to them as agreed. I’ve heard other’s say the owner is a crooked sob. My hats off to the man, he bent WF over and tore their ass up but good. When he was done WF squealed all the way to the courthouse. Obviously WF isn’t accustomed to being on the receiving end of a good fucking. Good for him.
I just hope he doesn’t fuck the employees too. Either way, If I was a GW employee I’d start looking for a new job.

 

[MarinePMI]

I think this conversation has run its course, legal proceedings are done, both parties have settled. There's nothing more to see here, and conjecture and opinion belong in the pit.

This thread will be closed.