All stainless steel alloys have iron in them.
It's the % of nickel the alloy that determines whether it's magnetic or not.
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Wet tumbling what a difference WOW
- Thread starter Remman13
- Start date
All stainless steel alloys have iron in them.
It's the % of nickel the alloy that determines whether it's magnetic or not.
I wonder how many of the people who say they have problems with WT brass use a bushing die to increase neck tension? I wonder how many ream primer holes, or clean primer pockets?
Why do we need to resize necks after shooting? It's not like the diameter of the neck literally changes upon ignition...right?
Why does a bullet drop right into a fired case? I'm not going to argue neck tension, because I too believe it aids precision, but at the end of the day the neck opens up when the bullet is released, and I've never had erratic numbers that could be attributed to how I clean the cases.
I have never had this stickiness problem and I've been pin tumbling (for like 15-20 minutes) for years and years. I believe that actually cleaning all the carbon from the case (especially the primer pockets and holes) gives you more uniform ignition, but this is only a guess, and in terms of neck tension a normal FB die seems to provide everything needed to give me low SD/ES. Obviously others have run into problems. I have not.
My guess is that when you tumbled you did it WAY too long. None of my brass gets that peened look, or becomes "sticky" because I only tumble for about 15 minutes in dish liquid and lemishine. You can't vibrate brass for too long, but excessive tumbling is bad. IMO the problems mentioned are from excessive tumbling, and if you keep the duration reasonably short you can avoid all those problems. I don't give a shit how the brass looks. I do it because it cleans the pockets, holes, and the interior of the cases. I also anneal, and I can typically get 20+ loadings out of my 6X47L brass, which is pretty damn good.
Some if this is a bit of witchcraft, and I don't begrudge how anyone does it even if it's different from me.
Why do we need to resize necks after shooting? It's not like the diameter of the neck literally changes upon ignition...right?
Why does a bullet drop right into a fired case? I'm not going to argue neck tension, because I too believe it aids precision, but at the end of the day the neck opens up when the bullet is released, and I've never had erratic numbers that could be attributed to how I clean the cases.
I have never had this stickiness problem and I've been pin tumbling (for like 15-20 minutes) for years and years. I believe that actually cleaning all the carbon from the case (especially the primer pockets and holes) gives you more uniform ignition, but this is only a guess, and in terms of neck tension a normal FB die seems to provide everything needed to give me low SD/ES. Obviously others have run into problems. I have not.
My guess is that when you tumbled you did it WAY too long. None of my brass gets that peened look, or becomes "sticky" because I only tumble for about 15 minutes in dish liquid and lemishine. You can't vibrate brass for too long, but excessive tumbling is bad. IMO the problems mentioned are from excessive tumbling, and if you keep the duration reasonably short you can avoid all those problems. I don't give a shit how the brass looks. I do it because it cleans the pockets, holes, and the interior of the cases. I also anneal, and I can typically get 20+ loadings out of my 6X47L brass, which is pretty damn good.
Some if this is a bit of witchcraft, and I don't begrudge how anyone does it even if it's different from me.
What you do to the neck surface absolutely impacts ES
I switched to ultrasonic when it was the rage. Yup the cases looked clean inside and out. What we noticed is that some of our ammo did indeed start to have higher ES, first, it showed up on paper at 1000 then we when measured off an Ohler 35 it was confirmed.
We decided we'd try to figure out what changed so we spent 4 months with our 308s (remember those) shooting and logging ES at least 2x weekly. Using a really expensive Sartorius lab balance (better than our A&Ds today), cases sorted by weight, then by H2O, bullets sorted by weight, and then ogive and even the primers; the brass was also uniformed primer pockets and flash holes. We used Arbor presses with Wilson micrometer arbor seaters to document the seating force and sorted. We also added in brushing the necks, polishing the necks, using dry lube, as is, and an annealing test. Sure it was only a couple of guys comparing the same procedures, but the results were amazingly similar.
What we noticed is the number 1 determining factor in ES was neck seating force, either too light (wrong bushing or over annealed) combined with a jump (light worked fine soft seated by jamming into the lands) or inconsistent force. There also seemed to be a range of measurable force that produced the most consistent results when you had .030 for so jump. BTW your just NOT going to be able to feel differences in a regular press with the leverage except for the very extreme.
Long story short, our 2 Ultrasonics were indeed producing worse ES' than shooting and dry media tumbling, especially true if the chemical was strong or the process too long. Following some of the best benchrest guys, we also tested, shooting without tumbling at all, and found excellent results.
I no longer follow the extremes of reloading and sorting; and really do not worry about shiny brass. Shot from a bolt gun, it hardly even get dirty. For me, I've settled on cutting my reloading time and only using the parts that matter the most.
Super shinny brass is cool to look at but a pain in the ass to create only to shoot.
I switched to ultrasonic when it was the rage. Yup the cases looked clean inside and out. What we noticed is that some of our ammo did indeed start to have higher ES, first, it showed up on paper at 1000 then we when measured off an Ohler 35 it was confirmed.
We decided we'd try to figure out what changed so we spent 4 months with our 308s (remember those) shooting and logging ES at least 2x weekly. Using a really expensive Sartorius lab balance (better than our A&Ds today), cases sorted by weight, then by H2O, bullets sorted by weight, and then ogive and even the primers; the brass was also uniformed primer pockets and flash holes. We used Arbor presses with Wilson micrometer arbor seaters to document the seating force and sorted. We also added in brushing the necks, polishing the necks, using dry lube, as is, and an annealing test. Sure it was only a couple of guys comparing the same procedures, but the results were amazingly similar.
What we noticed is the number 1 determining factor in ES was neck seating force, either too light (wrong bushing or over annealed) combined with a jump (light worked fine soft seated by jamming into the lands) or inconsistent force. There also seemed to be a range of measurable force that produced the most consistent results when you had .030 for so jump. BTW your just NOT going to be able to feel differences in a regular press with the leverage except for the very extreme.
Long story short, our 2 Ultrasonics were indeed producing worse ES' than shooting and dry media tumbling, especially true if the chemical was strong or the process too long. Following some of the best benchrest guys, we also tested, shooting without tumbling at all, and found excellent results.
I no longer follow the extremes of reloading and sorting; and really do not worry about shiny brass. Shot from a bolt gun, it hardly even get dirty. For me, I've settled on cutting my reloading time and only using the parts that matter the most.
Super shinny brass is cool to look at but a pain in the ass to create only to shoot.
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I deprime and wet-tumble my 25-06 brass. I like the clean primer pockets and admit that nice, bright brass is very appealing. I use a neck brush and case lube such as RCBS on each case neck just before loading. I have been doing this for years and have never had a problem. I am not an expert marksman but hitting 500 yard gongs with my Ruger is no problem. That is good enough for me.
Place the magnet in a plastic container and "sweep" the floor with it. Pull the magnet out and drop the pins back in the tumbler. I use a 1/2 inch neodymium one for anything that gets flung out of the rotary separator.
Okay let me see if I got this right dry tumble in corncob with car wax and a drier sheet, then wet tumble with media and detergent, then dry tumble with walnut shells and nufinish. Wet tumble without the media and lemishine. Then dry tumble to remove water spots and little pin marks. Wet tumble again with wax and whiskey. The whiskey is for me since I havnt loaded anything as I got to get my tumbling correct.
You can save one step if you bring your brass into the shower with you each day.
Just kick it around with your feet.
Conserve resources the green initiative you know.
My wife says the hot tub gets it cleaner. Turn the jets on high.
Just kick it around with your feet.
Conserve resources the green initiative you know.
My wife says the hot tub gets it cleaner. Turn the jets on high.
Just because you can't does not mean no one can. If you can't feel (yes I said the feels word) the difference between 1 pound and 5 pounds thats sad actually. I've turned enough torque wrenches to where I am confident that I can tell when I am within about 20 percent of correct torque. But yes I always use a torque wrench on critical connections set to the proper torque. But what happens when that harbor freight torque wrench you ingeniirs are using fails? Since you don't believe in feels i guess you keep cranking till you snap that bolt and then say "but mys torks wrench didntz goez klicky....." No one is claiming to be able to exactly tell a force by feel but for Christs sake you should be able to tell when something is different from before or just doesn't "feel" right.
I wet tumble. I’ve tumbled brass for hours and hours, just to torture my brass. “Kidding” I’ve produced great ES regardless of the time I’ve tumbled with pins, or just used a vibratory media tumbler. I’ve not experienced any stuck bullets or missed a target because of anything ammunition related. I do however like to hear others experience and like to learn from their experiences.
I feel, yes, I feel we simply like to argue more than we used to. A lack of appreciation for another’s opinion. A lack of open minded people participating in conversations.
People sometimes act like their method is clearly superior because they have good results. That’s BS and everyone knows it. I agree there is a lot of variation that will still produce more than acceptable results.
Bottom line, if it works well for you, ignore the naysayers.
I feel, yes, I feel we simply like to argue more than we used to. A lack of appreciation for another’s opinion. A lack of open minded people participating in conversations.
People sometimes act like their method is clearly superior because they have good results. That’s BS and everyone knows it. I agree there is a lot of variation that will still produce more than acceptable results.
Bottom line, if it works well for you, ignore the naysayers.
I never said I can't feel the difference. When a customer is paying for a service, they expect a qualified tradesman to use the correct and calibrated tools for the job, not "I have a really good feel for this sort of thing, trust me" guy.
You don't mount a barrel in a lathe to do a chamber job and say "looks ok to me" or a builder who says "yeah, that looks level according to my 20+ years experience".
Get close with feel, verify with the correct tools.
Probably why this thread was started,. They want the correct Tools to measure the result.
Almost as hilarious as a the fudds at a range who pick up someone else's ammo, lightly shake it in their hand, put it to their ear and shake it and proclaim "ohhhh, that's a hot one, that's gonna be a hot load right there".
Back on topic, I wet tumble, SS pins, anneal each time. I tumble long (1.5-2hrs) as I like shiney brass. I have a theory that light carbon inside a case is a good thing, and I used to only 0000 steel wool the necks on the outside, then anneal, size, load, etc.
I have rebarreled since, but my ES was lower by a few points. Never went back to confirm / disprove this theory.
Used to reload .44 mag never lubed the inside of the case neck just made sure that everything was set to the same depth just kept the barrel and throat clean and put a few thousand rounds through without a single issue accuracy was good may be I was lucky
Maybe, putting this into perspective will be helpful. It seems that a few in this thread are misunderstanding the statements about ES and the differences in what you can see via your cleaning method, annealing method, or bushing choice.
The good:
The bad:
The guys that have NOT tested various methods or meticulous reloaders using chronographs in the A through C crowed, will probably swear there is no difference in neck prep of the brass. To them, there is not enough to notice or they have not looked into the contrast; either way, it works for them. However, that doesn't mean the people who have seen the correlation between various methods are wrong either.
Hopefully, people will take the time to see that there can be a difference in how to prep brass and keep their eyes wide open as to the trade-offs; especially if they are interested in ELR or other intolerant long-range precision disciplines. That's why I took the time to post in #105.
Jim
The good:
1. Nobody that I know is suggesting your bullets are so stuck that a gun will be dangerous to shoot.
2. Nobody is saying your short-range accuracy will suffer.
3. Most people probably will not notice a darn thing with the ES differences as the SDs doesn't change enough. Remember with SD you can have a large sample size of let's say 12fps, yet both can have vastly different ES.
4. Even in a match depending on your discipline like PRS you're not going to notice.
5. The idea that we should be concerned about ES, is really only applicable to long-range precision rifles.
The bad:
A. If you're an ELR guy looking for low single-digit SD and ES in the teens or lower you will see a difference.
B. If you're a 1,000 yard BR or F-class guy, especially shooting one of the limited classes with slow, low BC rounds, you will indeed see a difference with some techniques n your paper target.
C. If you're an anal load developer and use a Chrono more than anyone should (LOL) you'll see a difference.
The guys that have NOT tested various methods or meticulous reloaders using chronographs in the A through C crowed, will probably swear there is no difference in neck prep of the brass. To them, there is not enough to notice or they have not looked into the contrast; either way, it works for them. However, that doesn't mean the people who have seen the correlation between various methods are wrong either.
Hopefully, people will take the time to see that there can be a difference in how to prep brass and keep their eyes wide open as to the trade-offs; especially if they are interested in ELR or other intolerant long-range precision disciplines. That's why I took the time to post in #105.
Jim
Jim, I feel your correct overall and thanks for taking time to post again.
I will state that I typically only shoot to 1k or just a bit over and then it’s on steel. I would most likely never see a difference. That said I’m consistent in my process so I have always seen repeatable results.
I’m certainly not discounting your findings. I do agree most will never see it.
Thanks again.
I will state that I typically only shoot to 1k or just a bit over and then it’s on steel. I would most likely never see a difference. That said I’m consistent in my process so I have always seen repeatable results.
I’m certainly not discounting your findings. I do agree most will never see it.
Thanks again.
You can't controll everything.
Things you have no controll of,
Wind, temperature, altitude, spin drift and coriolis efect.
Things you have some controll of, depending on the depth of your pockets the quality of your eqipment, the quality of your components.
Things you can controll,
Regular practice, attention to assembly of rounds (consistancy) and brass prep.
Brass prep is time consuming but the cheapest thing within controll.
Plinking rounds get the exact same brass prep as precision rounds . I use the plinkers to test changes to prep if any. That way I don't waste any of the good components on things that can be tested with bulk plinkers.
One example I can give is running 223 range brass through a mandrell operation after sizing.
My loads got better but the kicker was that between several headstamps the groups stayed the same.
Brass thickness was causing neck tension differences even on matching headstamps.
I know case volume at longer ranges will show up but will now be easier to narrow down.
I went to a 3 step process just for the primer pockets on range brass.
Swage, ream and uniform.
Benifit was primers go in strait every time and don't hang up crooked in the middle of a run on a progressive press . (Pita)
Along the way as a side benefit I have some pretty nice plinkers made from cheap components.
I like the simplicity of dry tumble and don't plan on testing against wet my bench is pretty full already.
Things you have no controll of,
Wind, temperature, altitude, spin drift and coriolis efect.
Things you have some controll of, depending on the depth of your pockets the quality of your eqipment, the quality of your components.
Things you can controll,
Regular practice, attention to assembly of rounds (consistancy) and brass prep.
Brass prep is time consuming but the cheapest thing within controll.
Plinking rounds get the exact same brass prep as precision rounds . I use the plinkers to test changes to prep if any. That way I don't waste any of the good components on things that can be tested with bulk plinkers.
One example I can give is running 223 range brass through a mandrell operation after sizing.
My loads got better but the kicker was that between several headstamps the groups stayed the same.
Brass thickness was causing neck tension differences even on matching headstamps.
I know case volume at longer ranges will show up but will now be easier to narrow down.
I went to a 3 step process just for the primer pockets on range brass.
Swage, ream and uniform.
Benifit was primers go in strait every time and don't hang up crooked in the middle of a run on a progressive press . (Pita)
Along the way as a side benefit I have some pretty nice plinkers made from cheap components.
I like the simplicity of dry tumble and don't plan on testing against wet my bench is pretty full already.
As I said before, I wet tumble without pins. Typically I've run it for an hour. No particular reason. I've not noticed any dinged up necks or marks.
But I read it works just as well for 15-20 minutes? hell, I'll try that and see how it works.
But I read it works just as well for 15-20 minutes? hell, I'll try that and see how it works.
So when you FL resize fired brass, do you use a Mandrel after?
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I do not. I’ve already sized the brass once the FL sizer has been used. I do not remove the mandrel or the expander ball like some do.
I used to (as alluded to earlier), use extreme process to load and so much of the expensive from 21st Century and K&M with just about every step imaginable. I just didn’t have time or love for that anymore.
What I’ve settled on for things like PRS matches with the volume is high and the targets fairly generous through my bolt gunis the following:
1. just hand wipe any dust
2. Light wax
3. FL Bushing Sizing - with .005 expanders available from Whidden (this is better than no bushing or factory, and eliminates my 21st mandrel step).
4. 3 way trim (the step I hate the most)
5. Dry tumble just to remove the wax
6. Prime
7. Run A&D Auto trickler - 419
8. Seat as they fill the next dump.
I’ve cut a ton of steps, but this ends up being the faster with the best return of time and still getting good SDs and ES.
The brass I admit is not as pretty of some of your pictures, but I am not working all that hard anymore.
These caliber specific Whidden gauges are the best bump gauge ever! Multipurpose and more consistent than you tool I’ve used- worth every penny.
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Is there any reason not to lube the bullets to get easier seating
Thinking a light spray with one shot and letting it dry, leaves a light coat of wax on the bullet to help seating.
Dennis
Thinking a light spray with one shot and letting it dry, leaves a light coat of wax on the bullet to help seating.
Dennis
Extra work and inconsistent.
If you feel that the seating is pressure is excessive you should change your bushing or get a bushing die
I do especially for different headstamps the thickness difference in the neck gives different results for me.
A separate mandrell operation shoves all extra to the outside and gets them all consistant.
0.002 nt everyone instead of +/- 0.001 variance iether direction.
It showed up with improved groups on every caliber I load.
IMHO the single most cost effective thing you can do and see improvement.
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I can see the time saving in the "one step" process.
On a different note I don't have to measure, reset bushings or anything to get a consistant nt.
If I were running a set of say 200 pieces of brass for a precision load that method might give a better load in the end on one barrel.
As long as its not a neck turn chamber my process does not matter to have the brass the same nt on all brass.
I can spend my time on powder and then seating depth.
I admit to being biased since my bushing neck sizing loads just didn't come out that good. I gave up on them.
Also cheaper with the (mostly) one mandrell die and a hand full of diameters covering multiple cartridges. I no longer shoot any large magnums.
The bushings may give you a few more loadings if your primer pockets hold out.
On a different note I don't have to measure, reset bushings or anything to get a consistant nt.
If I were running a set of say 200 pieces of brass for a precision load that method might give a better load in the end on one barrel.
As long as its not a neck turn chamber my process does not matter to have the brass the same nt on all brass.
I can spend my time on powder and then seating depth.
I admit to being biased since my bushing neck sizing loads just didn't come out that good. I gave up on them.
Also cheaper with the (mostly) one mandrell die and a hand full of diameters covering multiple cartridges. I no longer shoot any large magnums.
The bushings may give you a few more loadings if your primer pockets hold out.
Not typically. If I’ve got too much tension for some reason I will. I do use a mandrel on new brass. And sometimes it is pretty sticky if it needs much stretch.
Reason not to is that you don’t need to when you have carbon on the neck and .0015-.002 neck tension. The bullet basically falls inside the case with zero resistance. And it may make @308pirate and other engineers’ heads explode that I can tell you that I have .002 neck tension just from feeling the seating resistance, but it’s true. If I stainless tumbled and had varying friction on the necks that wouldn’t be possible.
A long time ago I tested every step in my process and figured out what doesn’t really matter and cut those parts out. When you quit OCDing over things you find out that it’s not hard at all to make .3-.5 MOA ammo. That’s plenty for me as I’m not shooting bench rest. One thing that DOES matter(a lot) is neck tension. So the last thing I’m going to do is add a step to the process that can cause variables in neck tension or more steps to avoid variables in neck tension.....just for shiny brass.
You have found a process which works for you, and that is hugely important on this game, and the most over looked part. Find what works for YOU, and roll with it. Over time, as people are mentioning, your process changes. This is just about learning, and it is important we learn.
Lube changes, media we use to tumble changes (brand, type, etc) even the brand of dies or bushings or coatings on the bushings. How you measure, so you buy a basic tool to see if you like it, then buy a good or better one.
I personally don't retrim brass. I trim after initial first firing, find the smallest and match to that, then trim them all to suit. I'll reload that batch of brass until the barrel dies, and not even check it again. It's not important to me. Others here say they do it each time.
Lube changes, media we use to tumble changes (brand, type, etc) even the brand of dies or bushings or coatings on the bushings. How you measure, so you buy a basic tool to see if you like it, then buy a good or better one.
I personally don't retrim brass. I trim after initial first firing, find the smallest and match to that, then trim them all to suit. I'll reload that batch of brass until the barrel dies, and not even check it again. It's not important to me. Others here say they do it each time.
I STM tumble and found the need to lube bullets/necks almost immediately. Annealing on top of squeaky clean brass made it even stickier... SD & ES grew from a low and predictable number to something nearly double with no other changes. Ammo sits sometimes overnight or several weeks before shooting.
I started using industrial die wax on my bullets before seating about 5 years ago in an effort to get my numbers back down and have been successful and added no time to my reloading methodology.
Have roasted several barrels since, no issues, and that $10 in die wax is still at about 75%.
I started using industrial die wax on my bullets before seating about 5 years ago in an effort to get my numbers back down and have been successful and added no time to my reloading methodology.
Have roasted several barrels since, no issues, and that $10 in die wax is still at about 75%.
For clarity, it is the same as you are doing with a mandil die. I have a bunch of 21st-century Ti-coated expander mandrels as well. The reason the expanders are available in .001 is NOT so you can change them all the time, but rather so you can choose the amount of expansion; set it and leave it regardless of brass. Remember the custom expander passes into the fired case without touching anything, FL sizing is completed and after the die-body is lifted away from the neck, the custom expander then contacts and uniforms the inside of the neck.
Probably the best source for some is these tools is 21st century or K&M.. Here is a link if someone is interested. http://www.xxicsi.com/products-1.html
The only things a separate expander mandrel and die process does that is better than a FL/B/with custom expander is give the user freedom to use on new brass with the benefit of getting a feel for the variation in setting, before seating a bullet, as that is exactly what you're doing anyway.
Honestly, if I still had the love for reloading and still felt that it connected me to actually shooting in some way, I'd go ahead and run the Ticoated 21st expanders a secondary step to remove any outliers (felt in the force of expansion) and use my force arbor gauge as the seater.
Well that is a good explination and I have tried polishing my expanders to the same 0.002 staring with 0.001.
Some how I get better results running a 3.5 -4 thousands expander in a fls die and the separate 0.002 21st Century mandrell .
I have no idea of what makes it different or how it works but the groups have tightened.
I use a lot of range brass for 223 and some times other calibers especially for plinkers.
I sort headstamps and make a run.
If I could get the same results and eliminate the extra step I would gladly.
My hands are still swollen from the reloading bench last nite and only half batch done.
This one extra step really improved the rounds for my sons 308 rounds. He came by after the last range trip with some cloverleaf holes (4 shots) saving on testing supplies.
That was the only change to the brass, and want's me to chisel that load in concrete. Lol
I tried bushing dies for that gun and failed miserably.
Maybe I'm just incompetent with a bushing die setup.
Some how I get better results running a 3.5 -4 thousands expander in a fls die and the separate 0.002 21st Century mandrell .
I have no idea of what makes it different or how it works but the groups have tightened.
I use a lot of range brass for 223 and some times other calibers especially for plinkers.
I sort headstamps and make a run.
If I could get the same results and eliminate the extra step I would gladly.
My hands are still swollen from the reloading bench last nite and only half batch done.
This one extra step really improved the rounds for my sons 308 rounds. He came by after the last range trip with some cloverleaf holes (4 shots) saving on testing supplies.
That was the only change to the brass, and want's me to chisel that load in concrete. Lol
I tried bushing dies for that gun and failed miserably.
Maybe I'm just incompetent with a bushing die setup.
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I would theorize that your double mandrel loads are better because the mandrel is ironing/smoothing the neck out and making for a consistent surface. If you’re using mixed brass this would help for sure. Using mixed brass with a neck bushing is not ever going to be very consistent.
I sort the brass by headstamp.
And load all of that lott. Surprisingly the different lotts started shooting very similar and allowed the same load between 3 different brands of brass.
I have never seen this before it's just a 223 plinker with 52g speer seconds and a slow load of cfe223 at 27.5 .
I use the 223 to evaluate process before eating up 6.5 and 30 cal supplies.
You would think that pollising the expansion buttons to a mirror finish would have the same result but it didn't for me?
I am working on my 1/5 flier, a dummy round without a bullet didn't work and may just load six.
Counting is a distraction in my head and I hate breaking cheek weld.
If I covered the flier I would be able to brag on that cheap load. (Normal prices)
Maybe a stimulus new chrono as the old one is toast. (If available) lol
Admittedly I am jealous of the wet tumbled shine.
And load all of that lott. Surprisingly the different lotts started shooting very similar and allowed the same load between 3 different brands of brass.
I have never seen this before it's just a 223 plinker with 52g speer seconds and a slow load of cfe223 at 27.5 .
I use the 223 to evaluate process before eating up 6.5 and 30 cal supplies.
You would think that pollising the expansion buttons to a mirror finish would have the same result but it didn't for me?
I am working on my 1/5 flier, a dummy round without a bullet didn't work and may just load six.
Counting is a distraction in my head and I hate breaking cheek weld.
If I covered the flier I would be able to brag on that cheap load. (Normal prices)
Maybe a stimulus new chrono as the old one is toast. (If available) lol
Admittedly I am jealous of the wet tumbled shine.
You might have missed the solve; using neck bushings with custom expander mandrels, does the same as a separate mandrel. BTW if you set it up correctly, you'll end up getting many more reloads this way before having to anneal vs FL non-bushing that tends to oversize the neck then really pull the expander ball through, then running an expander mandrel again. BTW most guys I know using a 2nd step mandrel are using either a custom or bushing die without expander, then using the mandrel to keep from overworking stuff.
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What wax brand are you using? I did a test with imperial sizing wax on case neck & bullets. Over a tiny 10 shots sample of each, the neck waxing was slightly better at SD 6 ES 12, wax bullets SD 9 ES 29. I noticed the wax was scraping off my bullets as I seated, which I assume was giving less consistent results.
I use a stupid thin coating. Like moisturizer your fingertips with it, then rub the bearing surface of the bullet before seating. I’m sure you could apply it to necks instead, though maybe more time consuming as your have to swab it in after powder charges.
As an option, I normally dry tumble with car wax / and mineral spirits 3 times in my process.
Deprime, tumble.
Size / work pockets tumble.
Trim, champher, debur tumble.
Hear me out. I belive the car wax apposed to other waxes provides a " hardened" coating. The wax would normally harden on a car by sun / uv light.
I'm thinking the friction of the media and flashing off of the mineral spirits does the same thing.
You can see the shine from the wax, you can feel the lubricity but it will not scrape off with a thumbnail.
As mentioned by @Diver160651 I am working the neck twice but I'm not using Lapua and when I Finnish using the last 5 gallon bucket of brass I have I will fire up an annealer and start over.
I don't know how you would distribute car wax in a wet tumbler?
Deprime, tumble.
Size / work pockets tumble.
Trim, champher, debur tumble.
Hear me out. I belive the car wax apposed to other waxes provides a " hardened" coating. The wax would normally harden on a car by sun / uv light.
I'm thinking the friction of the media and flashing off of the mineral spirits does the same thing.
You can see the shine from the wax, you can feel the lubricity but it will not scrape off with a thumbnail.
As mentioned by @Diver160651 I am working the neck twice but I'm not using Lapua and when I Finnish using the last 5 gallon bucket of brass I have I will fire up an annealer and start over.
I don't know how you would distribute car wax in a wet tumbler?
You have a process, which is not right or wrong, but it works for you. This alone is good that you have a process, and stick to it. It creates repeatability which I think is half the battle.
Has anyone tried a way of getting a "hardcoat" wax by wet tumbling on brass or bullets?
Maybe alcohol and wax mixture?
Alcohol and wax dunk cap for the wet process brass after it has dried. Possibly just neck deep like the way you use grafite.
I have grafite but make a mess all the time, one fingerprints worth goes a long way.
Maybe alcohol and wax mixture?
Alcohol and wax dunk cap for the wet process brass after it has dried. Possibly just neck deep like the way you use grafite.
I have grafite but make a mess all the time, one fingerprints worth goes a long way.
Wonder if any of these dry lines would work?
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Did someone already mention one shot?
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Did someone already mention one shot?
Or
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Are you applying the graphite using ceramic media?
I use Redding ceramic media and there is no mess and it’s fast and easy.
On a side note for you guys using a mandrel. How tight does the mandrel fit after you run it? I pulled my mandrel out of the die and was going through each case by hand. I was getting some cases where the mandrel went in easy and others where it would not go in at all. Most were a tight fit but could be twisted in and out.
They should all feel the same. If not I’d say you’ve got brass that’s too hard or mixed brass that’s not consistent. Ive never tried it but wouldn’t think you should be able to insert it by hand either way.
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