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What’s a “good” 600 yard size group for an AR15?
- Thread starter BigPineyTradingPost
- Start date
Why isn’t the fourth round included in the measurement?
According to all the wisdom I’ve read on the internets it doesn’t count until you have 10 cold bore shots, a 5x5 target (all on a single piece of paper), a 10 shot target, a 20 shot target, and can’t be a Larue before you can claim MOA accuracy out of an AR.
According to all the wisdom I’ve read on the internets it doesn’t count until you have 10 cold bore shots, a 5x5 target (all on a single piece of paper), a 10 shot target, a 20 shot target, and can’t be a Larue before you can claim MOA accuracy out of an AR.
It was part of a group prior to the marked
just the marked three.
Just trying to learn. That’s why I posted the question. I have to start somewhere. Thanks for the information.
Heart , lungs , liver thats all you have to hit. Match ammo for head shots.
The German has a heart after all
I don't think many did much better last time we had a 600y challenge. Granted it was 10 shots, but it wasn't 223s limited to AR mag length either.
I’ll go more rounds next time. Just getting into the swing of things.
I shoot 600 yrd. matches a couple of times a summer. Using B/H 5.56mm 77gr. TMK's, my best 5 shot group was a 4.43", with 3 of those shots measuring 2.1", in the "X" ring. I use an AR15 w/ 18" Bull Barreled upper and a 4x16 Nikon Tact. scope w/BDC ret.. Anything is possible. Mac
I was going to guess if it can stay at 1 moa or smaller that is a great day for an AR.
At 600 yards I look at vertical dispersion with a .223. If you are holding 6" for 10 shot groups you are doing well by my standards. I get some groups with half that vertical but anything under 6" is quite acceptable. I am not a match shooter so they might do much better.
1 MOA is an achievable, respectable place to start, especially when shooting at 600 yards. If you are shooting a stock AR, there may be some limiting factors inherent in the rifle. Once you begin the upgrade/precision process that is a never ending process to shrink group sizes.
Good luck, have fun.
Good luck, have fun.
If I can shoot 1 MOA most of the time I’m happy. One MOA is 1.047” so at 600 yds that would be 6.282”. Easier to just figure 1” per 100 yards - close enough for most applications.
OFG
OFG
This. Gold standard is 1MOA at any range.
Focus on first round hits and recoil reset for a follow up corrective shot. High percentage of first round hits is the gold standard for accurate combat shooting. Fuck groups; I'm pretty sure I've never needed to shoot the same guy 5 times.
Anything else is extra. Stop getting bent out of shape trying to shoot .5MOA groups all day (especially with a large frame); its not going to happen regulary and doesn't need to.
You'll be amazed at what the accuracy spec requirments on the M110/Mk12/MK11/G28 are.
You'll be amazed at what the accuracy spec requirments on the M110/Mk12/MK11/G28 are.
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OK, amaze us. I had a couple of the Mk 11 rifles that were sold to the public. Neither was a sure 1.75 MOA at 600. I always wondered if that was the norm??
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OK, amaze us. I had a couple of the Mk 11 rifles that were sold to the public. Neither was a sure 1.75 MOA at 600. I always wondered if that was the norm??
Exactly. It's like 1.3 or 1.5 MOA. I'm on a personal mission to be 90% first round hits on 1.5-2MOA targets 1000 regardless of conditions. Shit ain't easy.
OP, consider that an NRA highpower 600 yard target measures, X-ring = 6" diameter, 10-ring = 12".
OK, amaze us. I had a couple of the Mk 11 rifles that were sold to the public. Neither was a sure 1.75 MOA at 600. I always wondered if that was the norm??
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G28 (the latest and greatest) only needs to achieve 1.5MOA
Mk12Mod1 was 1.5MOA down to (I think) 1.25MOA with Mk262Mod1
CSASS contract spec was 1.35MOA or something weird if I remember right
M110 on the SASS contract was .6AMR at 100m which is something like 1.6MOA. The M110s at the beginning had big problems and a lot were sent back for new barrels, gas system upgrades and all sorts of weirdness because for some, 1.6MOA was a fucking best case scenario.
On a fun note, the Germans still used the old 'pull it off the line and test fire it at a target out back' requirment for a G3 rifle to be converted into a G3A3. A technique that was used during WW2 to determine if a random K98 could be sent to be upgraded with a scope or put back on the line as a regular rifle.
@TheGerman thanks for posting that reality check there. I was wondering about the MK12’s accuracy spec.
Whatever internet sources I could easily find on its accuracy said the MK12 was anything from “sub-MOA” to “.5 MOA” with mk262.
Whatever internet sources I could easily find on its accuracy said the MK12 was anything from “sub-MOA” to “.5 MOA” with mk262.
It can be, and would obviously be acceptable as the spec is the maximum allowed spec. It varied by gun, ammo lot, etc.
I can get sub MOA out of mine with a load I make for it that is faster than MK262, but the downside being it basically rips part of the rim off when I shoot it lol
I'm testing some custom ammunition a manufacturer made for me, specifically for the chamber I have, this week and hope it keeps the velocity but makes the pressure problem go away.
I think sub moa out of a gas gun at 600 is pretty damn good. I’ve gotta get mine to the big range and see if she can hold it together at 6 and 800 yards for me. I can hit MOA targets to 300 without issue but I’ve never taken that particular gun to the longer range to stretch its legs. I’d be happy with a 5” 5 shot group at 600 for damn sure though with my 73 ELDM/8208 load.
In the past 16 years I have owned over 50 gas guns and honestly 1 MOA @ 600m is crazy good for a small or large frame gas gun!
The problem is see with most gas guns aren't always the rifle.... it's usually the shooter or the ammo.
I have a little collection of Mil. gas guns and I like to train with them all.
When I get a new gasser I generally take 6-10 different types of match ammo to the range and test them starting at 100m out to 600m.
My bring back KAC M110 hates almost all match ammo except the FGM 168 and the Hornady black box 168 as where my factory KAC Mk11 Mod0 seems to like the M118 and Federal 175 GMM.
My 5.56 16" REECE will shoot the Magtech 77 Match at 100m around 1/2 MOA or sometimes under and then at 600m its 2+ MOA with mostly vertical dispersion and a SD of 22 so don't let those little groups at 100m fool you into believing its a good load out to distance.
My hand loaded ammo for the REECE is 24.0 XBR with a 77 SMK and will hold under MOA out to 600m.
Here is a five shot group at 600yards with my 5.56 RECCE using factory Mk262.
The wind was full value at 7-9 mph and it’s still held pretty tight.
The problem is see with most gas guns aren't always the rifle.... it's usually the shooter or the ammo.
I have a little collection of Mil. gas guns and I like to train with them all.
When I get a new gasser I generally take 6-10 different types of match ammo to the range and test them starting at 100m out to 600m.
My bring back KAC M110 hates almost all match ammo except the FGM 168 and the Hornady black box 168 as where my factory KAC Mk11 Mod0 seems to like the M118 and Federal 175 GMM.
My 5.56 16" REECE will shoot the Magtech 77 Match at 100m around 1/2 MOA or sometimes under and then at 600m its 2+ MOA with mostly vertical dispersion and a SD of 22 so don't let those little groups at 100m fool you into believing its a good load out to distance.
My hand loaded ammo for the REECE is 24.0 XBR with a 77 SMK and will hold under MOA out to 600m.
Here is a five shot group at 600yards with my 5.56 RECCE using factory Mk262.
The wind was full value at 7-9 mph and it’s still held pretty tight.
Attachments
High power is also shot with a sling no bipod and irons or up to a 4.5 power scope. But high power shooter are using 80gn to 88gn bullets single fed also. That said if you shoot 1 moa you are doing good for your setup getting started.
We shoot single feed so we can shoot loads longer than mag length (2.255 OAL) loads with heavier bullets (and the rules allow it). Pretty common to shoot 80 grain SMK loads .010” off the lands. I think my 600 load is 2.395 OAL. I can usually hold the 10 ring if the wind isn’t too bad from sling and 4.5 power scope With a pretty good x count.
Because it’s a sport where 2nd place truly is 1st loser.
If I’m a guy with a 20” 5.56 A2 Service Rifle competing head-to-head for championships against 26”+ Match Rifles chambered in, well, basically anything the shooter wants between .22 and .30....
...well, I have to get kinda creative at 600 yards to not get my brains beaten in.
Spoken as the 1st loser, and the brain beater both:
-Nate
True, but the MR target was built for a sport where the M14 and Springfield reigned.
The sport, with a modern 3/8 Minute AR, surrrrre is a long way from an M14 that was REAL good at 1MOA, wouldn’t stay there without a fight, and pushed the shooter all over the line.
Prone slow fire, there are AR rifles AND shooters that could clean the 300m metric target with a BUNCH of X.
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Yes, that makes complete sense given the rules. I think I’m just wondering why the rules are the way they are. It’s a little silly on some level to have a “service rifle” competition where you turn a semi auto into a bolt gun and don’t shoot the same cartridge it normally does. Doesn’t take away from the accomplishments of those who compete, of course.
There are many that probably have cleaned the 300m with a high x count. But most high power shooters have never cleaned a 600 yard target slow fire with a service rifle Ar. At any monthly high power match you may have 3 or 4 that a capable of shooting a clean at 600 with an AR and 4.5 power scope. If the winds are up you really need to be on your game that day. You need to remember we are shooting in a sling so a hard holder may have about 3 to 4 inches of wobble already. I know thats my best on a good day with not too much coffee. If we have a gun capable of shooting just under 1 moa and a challenging wind to contend with you understand why the targets are the size they are. I think if the rules changed to mag fed ammo at 600 there would be less competitors showing up to matches because they may be intimidated by the challenge. I know the high master and master competitors would probably like the challenge. I know for me my first time out I was just happy to hit the black at 600 and that is 36” if I’m not mistaken. I pretty sure I scored some 5’s my 1st time out. The guys that make it look easy have put a LOT of time and practice in to perfecting there game.
Ok: 2 MOA
Good: 1-1.5 MOA
Great: .75-1 MOA
Excellent: .5 MOA
At least that's my take. Got to be able to do 1-ish. Otherwise, I'd fear for my own safety, or death from starvation.
Good: 1-1.5 MOA
Great: .75-1 MOA
Excellent: .5 MOA
At least that's my take. Got to be able to do 1-ish. Otherwise, I'd fear for my own safety, or death from starvation.
MK262 has bad velocity deviation due to sealant and crimping. It’s necessary for its application however. So tiny groups at long range are going to be hard but it’s meant for shooting people not X rings (no disrespect).
keep at it you can do it . A 3'' circle or steel at 600 yards is nice , if bench rest guys are 1/4 inch at 1000 yards you can do it to . practice
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/1000-yard-benchrest/
and that well I have know Idea on when that was written so Its probably even tighter groups .
https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/1000-yard-benchrest/
and that well I have know Idea on when that was written so Its probably even tighter groups .
That was a quarter MOA, so a 2.604 inch group at 1,000 yards. Still pretty good. The record I've seen is about an inch, or 0.1 MOA:
0.1 MOA at 1K — Amazing 1.068″ 50-5X Group at 1000 Yards « Daily Bulletin
Story based on report by Sam Hall Look at that target by Mike Wilson. This is one of the most remarkable displays of accuracy (and precision) in the history of long range shooting. This past weekend, Mike (aka GA. Dawg in our Forum) drilled a truly spectacular 1.
USDR (A2), P100 (A2), HM XC (A2), LR Exp (A2). PR Agg 794-40-some-X.
My prone hold trailing average (actual impacts) is about 0.768 MOA. A2 guards, Monard, Monard, Turner AWS. I’m not sure what the actual resting hold looks like without taking the gun down between shots, as I have no laserzz, but it’s a helluva lot smaller than 3/4. And you’re right about the work that got it there. And pain.
My best prone performace to date was 200-14x on the MR63, with over 10x in about 1/2 Dollar. Still not enough to overcome sitting that day, so took High Service for that State.
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