What’s with the .gov fetish

[THEIS]

Hi,

Listening to PRS comp shooters on what .mil should use is as funny as civilians saying "Mil Spec" is the best...

Ask AI how that worked out for them in regards to listening to "comp" shooters about their trigger.

Especially since between the 2 largest PRS competition series in the USA there was 420 unique competitors for the entire 2020 seasons.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[roostercogburn98]

Hi,

Listening to PRS comp shooters on what .mil should use is as funny as civilians saying "Mil Spec" is the best...

Ask AI how that worked out for them in regards to listening to "comp" shooters about their trigger.

Especially since between the 2 largest PRS competition series in the USA there was 420 unique competitors for the entire 2020 seasons.

Sincerely,
Theis

Soooooooo milspec is like Santa? Depends on when you choose to stop believing or some random relative tells you it’s not real anymore, and crushes your 37th Christmas on this earth?

 

[theLBC]

ar15.com has a thread on usage at Hendersons and it's a great thread

guess which bolts last the longest?

i don't do ar15.com since i don't own an AR. can you spare me the suspense and tell me?

 

[UpSideDown]

ar15.com has a thread on usage at Hendersons and it's a great thread

guess which bolts last the longest?

Could you just tell me which bolts last the longest so I don't have to get ar15.com brain cancer?

 

[TheHorta]

Why do people pay big money for really old cars they won’t drive?

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I don't believe you can legally get 855a1 anyways.

Go check gunbroker and get back to us.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Could you just tell me which bolts last the longest so I don't have to get ar15.com brain cancer?

lol...can't disagree with that!

Colt bolts lasted the longest

That thread is like 45 pages and has a $hit ton of great information in it. They had one receiver that only got full auto go almost 1mm rounds before splitting at the next

 

[RUTGERS95]

Why do people pay big money for really old cars they won’t drive?

I drive mine

 

[TurboTrout]

I don't believe you can legally get 855a1 anyways.

thought you could get 855, could easily be wrong

 

[UpSideDown]

thought you could get 855, could easily be wrong

855 is green tip, 855a1 is a dedicated AP round that is visually very different

 

[UpSideDown]

Go check gunbroker and get back to us.

Is this like how there are $5,000 thermal units on eBay that lead to men in nice suits knocking on your door? M855a1 is an AP round; since there's handguns made to shoot 5.56, doesn't that make it federally illegal? Just because there's an ad on Gunbroker doesn't mean you're getting it. I'd really like to know if you can legally buy and own it. I know you can grab factory loaded .50BMG API rounds, but there's no .50BMG handguns.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Import. Not illegal to posses.

 

[paco ramirez]

AI has examples of winners (AW) and losers (ASR) to these trials.

Why do you think the ASR contract wasn't awarded to AI? I'm just wondering what people think the reason was.

 

[DairyDictator]

Why do you think the ASR contract wasn't awarded to AI? I'm just wondering what people think the reason was.

Isn't there a stipulation that standard equipment for a military contract has to be manufacturable within the states?

 

[paco ramirez]

Isn't there a stipulation that standard equipment for a military contract has to be manufacturable within the states?

For the ASR it met the requirements for that.

 

[DairyDictator]

For the ASR it met the requirements for that.

Since when does AI manufacture anything in the states? I thought it was pretty much all imported from the UK.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Remington kickbacks were better than AIs

 

[TheHorta]

You can get M855A1. Not widely available, but there is a small, legitimate float out there.

I have ~2K rounds if it:

ETA: Fair warning: It chews-up AR500 plates like a mother. If you’re going to use it on plates, make sure they’re beaters (or they soon will be).

 

[paco ramirez]

Since when does AI manufacture anything in the states? I thought it was pretty much all imported from the UK.

If AI wasn't capable of meeting the manufacturing requirements for percentage made in the USA then they wouldn't have bothered spending hundreds of thousands of dollars developing the rifle to conform to the requirements.

 

[Lowlight]

Accuracy International has had a manufacturing location in NYS for years ...

At one point I think the AXMC in 338 was all US but the Action, Tom has lived in NY for a while.

I did barrel videos from there years ago. The Bartlein Barrels are spun up at AI in NYS too.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I know you can grab factory loaded .50BMG API rounds, but there's no .50BMG handguns.

Might want to go dig around youtube. Not technically in production BUT it does exist

 

[E-Tool]

 

[ma smith]

Why do you think the ASR contract wasn't awarded to AI? I'm just wondering what people think the reason was.

I've read several places there was a specific issue. I'll let you do your own homework or let one of the people with first-hand information get into more details. There are more authoritative sources than myself on the topic of AI.

 

[E-Tool]

“I've read several places there was a specific issue. I'll let you do your own homework or let one of the people with first-hand information get into more details. There are more authoritative sources than myself on the topic of AI.”

Hint... they don’t turn the buttplates upside down from the factory.

 

[Bakwa]

The .gov thing is funny. I was just talking to an active cool guy about how their school house peeps look to comp guys [PRS, 2-gun, etc,...] and civ instructors for improvements in kit, guns systems, etc... There are definitely people pushing what works best and why, and it ain't always the gov.

 

[paco ramirez]

I've read several places there was a specific issue. I'll let you do your own homework or let one of the people with first-hand information get into more details. There are more authoritative sources than myself on the topic of AI.

I have first hand info since I was involved in the ASR submissions and I know exactly what happened and why. I just want to see what people believe to be the reason, since all the reasons I've seen so far have been wrong, but I also haven't looked too hard and wouldn't know which threads to look in. Message me what you heard if you want.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

since there's handguns made to shoot 5.56, doesn't that make it federally illegal?

Sounds like Ted Kennedy logic. Every year he tried to get bans on various rifle ammo because of rifle caliber handguns and law enforcement hand gun rated vests. He'd have a cow over AR pistols.

 

[drum13]

.gov envy is for 308 shooters....ha........sorry 7.62x51 sniper weapon system........weenies.

"weenies"... what are you, in 7th fucking grade?

 

[Patch_18Z]

Lots of folks seem impressed if .gov buys it
Many of the buyers don’t shoot
Many of the end users didn’t shoot before signing up

Why do so many care what the army etc uses? How has what seems like a particleboard standard turned to a gold standard?

Seeing I don’t forget my rifle behind a HMMWV and run it over 3 times, or try to dig a hole in sand with it, stir beans with it, etc wouldn’t a better standard for those with a higher IQ be what the NRL, 3gun, etc winners use?

This is just my 2 cents so take it with a grain of salt. I spent the majority of my military career in Special Forces and I was privy to many of the torture tests we use to validate our equipment. When we take a manufactures product, we didn’t have to pay for it, didn’t design it and have zero emotional or financial involvement in its success.
Our goal was to break everything by determining what could take the most abuse before catastrophic failure. This is a huge departure from the old days of accepting the cheapest bidder.
Those items were added to the operators SOPMOD weapons kits

 

[SpookyEng]

I spent a while working as a systems engineer for three different companies ranging from small to the largest and found that the requirements for some programs do not start out from scratch. Many times an engineer will look around the documentation library for the program that is closest to the "new" one and start with the requirements for the legacy program. The statement is always made that the requirements will be scrubbed and all of the requirements that don't apply will be purged and then the lacking requirements will be added. Requirements are always added but it is hard to remove requirements, in the word processor world global searc and replace make it very easy to replace all occurrences of program XYZ with XZZ and it makes it look like the systems engineer is working their tails to produce a document 200's of pages in length in less than a month.

I was a lead on a new development program funded by the customer and the lead systems engineer, who had no experience with anything close to the program, sent me the requirements docs very quickly. Earlier I had made it known I had a pet peeve re: taking legacy docs and just editing them. I was not at the same location as the systems engineer so I told him to reserve a conference room for two days next week as I would fly in and he and I would go through the requirements line by line and he would tell me why they were actually required for the system. I show up assuming we would be hashing out the requirements and I found the systems engineer found a different program to work on and was told by his manager (think homeroom teacher) that I was not respectful to him when I asked for him to go through the doc in that fashion. I mentioned that the guy was supposed to be a professional as such he was responsible for any work product that he claimed as his own.

I was pissed because I was away from my home office, and home, and the ass did nt even have the courtesy to say the meeting was off until I showed up at his site. I went through the requirements line by line and pared the document back to 50% of the original. Granted I had extensive experience with systems very similar to the new one. Plus decisions are easier to make when you are sitting at a desk on your own than in a conference room.

Requirements docs are similar to software for office applications everyone wants a "one size fits all" approach. Think about how few features of our word processor most of use yet they are there as someone may use them, leading to bloatware and the $700 hammer.

Just my two cents,
wadde

Can confirm,I work in aquisition. We get brand new fresh out of school “engineers” who have no clue about the systems they are approving. They rely on the contractors, who lead them around by the nose. When you call them on their BS they just get shuffled to another program. Our military acquisition system is a CF.

 

[AccuSol-ERN]

"weenies"... what are you, in 7th fucking grade?

Sure.......I enjoy the 7th grade.

Have a nice day.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I have first hand info since I was involved in the ASR submissions and I know exactly what happened and why. I just want to see what people believe to be the reason, since all the reasons I've seen so far have been wrong, but I also haven't looked too hard and wouldn't know which threads to look in. Message me what you heard if you want.

Its not dickmod? The CO got a blowjob from ronnies wife? The COR still holds a grudge from 1812?

Barrett provides better onsite/support?
Cheaper and faster Barrel replacements?
Cheaper projected life cycle cost?
Barret was better at diversity and inclusion?

Hard to know what the reason was without seeing the RFP and selection doccumentation.

Are you under NDA or can you share?

 

[theLBC]

battlefield vegas armorers highlighted 2 outstanding firearms* that basically don't break or stop running, both used by military.
the fn scar and sig p226.

*and a glock.

funny enough, the old one was bought new and the newer one was bought used (but the slide is new).

i put the original grips back on after it was "retired".

 

[GUNNER10]

Its not dickmod? The CO got a blowjob from ronnies wife? The COR still holds a grudge from 1812?

Barrett provides better onsite/support?
Cheaper and faster Barrel replacements?
Cheaper projected life cycle cost?
Barret was better at diversity and inclusion?

Hard to know what the reason was without seeing the RFP and selection doccumentation.

Are you under NDA or can you share?

Considering how alot of this stuff has shaken out in the past 20 years, nothing would really surprise, If there is an organization that can fuck up a free lunch its PEO Solider.

Not knowing anything about Paco, I would be inclined to believe there is some validity to what he has heard, but I do know at least one of the guys that shot the test and he like the rifle.

With that being said, sometimes shit happens and companies manage to shit the bed, The CSASS was pretty much written for the K1 and somehow it was not even able to make it out of down select ,where at least one rifle was going into two round burst mode and launching silencers down range like a rifle grenade. So even though HK was ultimately selected as the CSASS, I would personally grab a K1, 10 times out of 10.

If somebody said that the AI outperformed the Barrett in the test, I would really not be surprised. The selection could of come down to something as simple as the have a chassis/one piece receiver/hand guard and the AI not (I don't Know if this is the case), The PM may have owned noobs in MW2 or ghost recon with a Barrett. Very really have I seen a selection made based solely on test data.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

Truth is both systems could have performed well with little realworld difference between the two, so the selection was made based on ergos, or some other factor that the tested favored more.

Doesnt mean AI is shit, im sure guys on the ground would love to run either of them compared to what they been stuck with for years. Both are great guns

 

[GUNNER10]

Truth is both systems could have performed well with little realworld difference between the two, so the selection was made based on ergos, or some other factor that the tested favored more.

Doesnt mean AI is shit, im sure guys on the ground would love to run either of them compared to what they been stuck with for years. Both are great guns

Yeah,

Both rifles are a notable improvement over the 2010.

 

[DaleAGribble]

Is this like how there are $5,000 thermal units on eBay that lead to men in nice suits knocking on your door? M855a1 is an AP round; since there's handguns made to shoot 5.56, doesn't that make it federally illegal? Just because there's an ad on Gunbroker doesn't mean you're getting it. I'd really like to know if you can legally buy and own it. I know you can grab factory loaded .50BMG API rounds, but there's no .50BMG handguns.

I generally take the 8 seconds to Google whether I'm right about something before I start commando correcting people on the internet

 

[RUTGERS95]

battlefield vegas armorers highlighted 2 outstanding firearms* that basically don't break or stop running, both used by military.
the fn scar and sig p226.

*and a glock.

funny enough, the old one was bought new and the newer one was bought used (but the slide is new).

i put the original grips back on after it was "retired".

slowdown read the whole thing, he didn't say scars don't have issues only the bolt hasn't broke. the Scars don't get run as often as the m4s and others

in the thread on handguns, they highlighted the issues with gen 4 glocks before the rest of the mkt but agree, the 226 seems to be rock solid!!!! there are others


READ THE WHOLE THREADS, BOTH!

 

[theLBC]

slowdown read the whole thing, he didn't say scars don't have issues only the bolt hasn't broke. the Scars don't get run as often as the m4s and others

in the thread on handguns, they highlighted the issues with gen 4 glocks before the rest of the mkt but agree, the 226 seems to be rock solid!!!! there are others


READ THE WHOLE THREADS, BOTH!

not sure what threads you mean.
it should be obvious "don't break" is an overstatement but "comparatively" speaking, they don't break very often.
as his example, a scar they have since opening day had 200k+ rounds through it and they only replaced the barrel and they broke a hammer.

 

[RUTGERS95]

not sure what threads you mean.
it should be obvious "don't break" is an overstatement but "comparatively" speaking, they don't break very often.
as his example, a scar they have since opening day had 200k+ rounds through it and they only replaced the barrel and they broke a hammer.

50+ pages on arfcom where he responds to questions and gives details on years of usage. Big Gov actually went in to speak to him on real life usage. For the AK guys, he even has a thread on that.

great read, grab and beer and enjoy

 

[UpSideDown]

I generally take the 8 seconds to Google whether I'm right about something before I start commando correcting people on the internet

I did, which is why I asked. I'll quote for you:

Federal law prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale or delivery of armor-piercing ammunition, with very limited exceptions. Armor-piercing or metal-piercing ammunition is designed primarily to penetrate metal or armor, including body armor commonly worn by police officers. (18 U.S.C. § 921, 18 U.S.C. § 922 and 27 CFR § 478.37)

The term “armor-piercing ammunition” means:

(i)  a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium;  or

(ii)  a full-jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

___
Hence why I asked if it was lawful because it is .223 caliber, it is available in handguns, and is considered armor piercing. The oddity to me being that this law would include turned solids...

 

[TurboTrout]

This is just my 2 cents so take it with a grain of salt. I spent the majority of my military career in Special Forces and I was privy to many of the torture tests we use to validate our equipment. When we take a manufactures product, we didn’t have to pay for it, didn’t design it and have zero emotional or financial involvement in its success.
Our goal was to break everything by determining what could take the most abuse before catastrophic failure. This is a huge departure from the old days of accepting the cheapest bidder.
Those items were added to the operators SOPMOD weapons kits

I don’t think many people have any emotional attachment to a brand, some brands I like because they make a good product, if someone makes a better one, bye Felicia

Some of this is odd, I mean yes you don’t want a gun made of eggshells, but at a certain point it’s like judging the top car poorly because after you filled the radiator with oil and the oil with coolant, and ran it into a brick wall at 60mph, and wow it doesn’t work anymore.

 

[DairyDictator]

I don’t think many people have any emotional attachment to a brand, some brands I like because they make a good product, if someone makes a better one, bye Felicia

Some of this is odd, I mean yes you don’t want a gun made of eggshells, but at a certain point it’s like judging the top car poorly because after you filled the radiator with oil and the oil with coolant, and ran it into a brick wall at 60mph, and wow it doesn’t work anymore.

Depends on who it's for. If the systems are going to be used by guys experienced with weapons handling and maintenance, you can get away with a lot and squeeze some extra performance out of it. If it's for big army, there are a lot of idiots in the mix that may do some really ass backwards shit that the weapon has to take.

 

[ma smith]

Hence why I asked if it was lawful because it is .223 caliber, it is available in handguns, and is considered armor piercing. The oddity to me being that this law would include turned solids...

this is obviously wrong analysis, and "since it is available" you can do some google to see why...

 

[TurboTrout]

Depends on who it's for. If the systems are going to be used by guys experienced with weapons handling and maintenance, you can get away with a lot and squeeze some extra performance out of it. If it's for big army, there are a lot of idiots in the mix that may do some really ass backwards shit that the weapon has to take.

That’s the issue with using the .mil as a more productive version of welfare.

Always thought in this day and age, not fighting like the old musket days, maybe we should be more quality over quantity people wise.

 

[ma smith]

Some of this is odd, I mean yes you don’t want a gun made of eggshells, but at a certain point it’s like judging the top car poorly because after you filled the radiator with oil and the oil with coolant, and ran it into a brick wall at 60mph, and wow it doesn’t work anymore.

I just want parts to work...first priority

 

[ma smith]

An ode to "It works"

It works to see, it works to dial dope, it works to go bang.
it works in the sand, it works in the snow, it works in the mud,
it works if its hot, I works when its dropped,
it works when its not,
it works...ALOT

apologies to doctor zeuss
but thats what I want

 

[RUTGERS95]

I just want parts to work...first priority

first rule of any weapons; must go bang everytime I pull the trigger

Second rule; see 1st rule
...
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....
....
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distant 3rd rule; should be accurate

 

[TurboTrout]

I just want parts to work...first priority

A bargain barrel PSA will “work” and will out shoot most .mil folks, more than able to hit a minute of man.

 

[UpSideDown]

this is obviously wrong analysis, and "since it is available" you can do some google to see why...

Which is why I asked the question....