What do I do now?

[BillyNg]

Two things:
1. Was the rifle ever shot at distance?

2. Did you ever consider trying a tuner? Obviously, a tuner shouldn’t be needed given the parts and builder in question, but just sort of as a gut check?

I am certain this will be sorted out between the two guys working on the rifle anyway, just would have been curious to see if the above ideas could have gleaned any additional info.

The rifle was shot for groups between 100 and 300 yards. Results all routinely the same. I'm not sure what relevance this question has though. A rifle that can't group at 100 is not magically going to group better at 300.

What is a 'tuner'? I've not heard the term before, but if that's a smith who tunes rifles then yes, I've got a tuner. His name is Mark and he owns Short Action Customs.

If you're talking about tuned ammo, then yes to that as well. When I exhausted all OTC match options (pretty much every flavor of FGMM), I turned to @FCS (Andrew McCourt from McCourt Munitions) to build me ammo for my rifle. I tried 14 different loads he provided me based on his experience both working with Mark @ SAC, as well as from his own SAC rifle(s). Mark is working with Andrew on chamber spec for my Krieger barrel based on what Andrew intends to throw down my barrel (I defer to experts wherever I can).

 

[phlegethon]

The rifle was shot for groups between 100 and 300 yards. Results all routinely the same. I'm not sure what relevance this question has though. A rifle that can't group at 100 is not magically going to group better at 300.

What is a 'tuner'? I've not heard the term before, but if that's a smith who tunes rifles then yes, I've got a tuner. His name is Mark and he owns Short Action Customs.

If you're talking about tuned ammo, then yes to that as well. When I exhausted all OTC match options (pretty much every flavor of FGMM), I turned to @FCS (Andrew McCourt from McCourt Munitions) to build me ammo for my rifle. I tried 14 different loads he provided me based on his experience both working with Mark @ SAC, as well as from his own SAC rifle(s). Mark is working with Andrew on chamber spec for my Krieger barrel based on what Andrew intends to throw down my barrel (I defer to experts wherever I can).

I agree with you about distance.

I think he was talking about a barrel tuner, which you can read about here:

Do Barrel Tuners Work? – Shooters Den

 

[Deleted member 10043]

A regular factory action, new barrel, barrel nut, and a couple of inexpensive tools are your friends. These would have saved you time, money, and with better results.

 

[BillyNg]

A regular factory action, new barrel, barrel nut, and a couple of inexpensive tools are your friends. These would have saved you time, money, and with better results.

When the rifle issues are resolved, the results will be far better than any non-trued factory action and barrel would ever produce. There are builders that routinely build guns that shoot sub 1/4 MOA with factory ammo, and a few that guarantee that in everything that leaves their facilities.

Could a factory action beat what the rifle is getting now? Yes, but I didn't pay for what I'm getting now; I'm paid for what's to come. And if you think I'm going to assemble something like this in my guest bedroom with some basic tools, you don't know what goes into a custom rifle.

 

[Mike_Honcho]

What is a 'tuner'? I've not heard the term before, but if that's a smith who tunes rifles then yes, I've got a tuner. His name is Mark and he owns Short Action Customs.

A barrel tuner is essentially a micro adjustable barrel weight that slides fore and aft, they are used heavily in .22 BR; in an effort to dial in a desired harmonic of the barrel and load together.

ETA - a Browning meat gun with a BOSS

 

[spife7980]

And if you think I'm going to assemble something like this in my guest bedroom with some basic tools, you don't know what goes into a custom rifle.

Doesn’t sound like you do either, or at least you’re finding out first hand now.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

When the rifle issues are resolved, the results will be far better than any non-trued factory action and barrel would ever produce. There are builders that routinely build guns that shoot sub 1/4 MOA with factory ammo, and a few that guarantee that in everything that leaves their facilities.

Could a factory action beat what the rifle is getting now? Yes, but I didn't pay for what I'm getting now; I'm paid for what's to come. And if you think I'm going to assemble something like this in my guest bedroom with some basic tools, you don't know what goes into a custom rifle.

B.S. By the time they are resolved? It can takes years and it don't take long to get a fucking action trued and build your own rifle. 90% of the members here don't even know where the jack is located in their vehicles let alone how to change a flat. By the time they get resolved my eye.

 

[BillyNg]

B.S. By the time they are resolved? It can takes years and it don't take long to get a fucking action trued and build your own rifle. 90% of the members here don't even know where the jack is located in their vehicles let alone how to change a flat. By the time they get resolved my eye.

Did you even read the thread or did you call Ms Clio?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I read your long winded OP and that was enough for me. Another bloated "no expense spared" custom build sob story. I wish I had a nickel for every one. And for me my comments are well intentions.

 

[NWnewguy]

OP- Sorry to hear about all your trouble with this build. Really low odds that with the quality components and builder you chose that it would happen this way, but in the end you will have an amazing rifle and a heck of a story. Additionally, you've gotten a bunch of one on one time with two of the best builders in the business. I think it's pretty amazing what those two guys are doing to make this right for you.

I have a SAC rifle built on a Badger 2013 and it's been a shooter from the day I got it. I also have one of their barrel vices, which is awesome. I've been watching their rifle die development on social media as well and can't wait until they're released. I know Mark Gordon and his people care a lot about their customers and doing right by them.

As far as Mike R. from TacOps, I'm not sure what to say. Other than a desire to help others in the area that he's expert in, it's hard to understand, to some people why he would get involved, but it's a strong indicator of what a quality guy he is and what kind of business he must run. I wish I had known he was in LA when I took my exchange student there for a visit. It would have been a breath of fresh air to visit his shop and get away from all the craziness that is LA these days.

I think the most interesting thing about this thread is that while there have been a few out to lunch posts, that most of the people are trying to be helpful with their advice and that two of the premier companies in the business are doing everything to make the rifle shoot like it should. It will be interesting to see what the eventual issue will have been. Good luck and keep the faith!

 

[SonicBurlap]

If you are looking into using a barrel tuner you might give this one a try:

Kinetic Security Solutions LLC

Dedicated to providing quality products to the shooting community.

www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com

 

[tmpugliese]

Just a thought and it may not be a good one. But since you have replaced just about every other component maybe it would be worth dropping a different trigger in there just to see if by some strange chance that has something to do with it. I mean your list of components seems legit so this would really be for experimentation purposes. But what if it made a difference. By the way I am only suggesting this considering that you intend to keep the rifle otherwise I support other’s view that you return the rifle, it is a guarantee after all.

 

[Baron23]

Just a thought and it may not be a good one. But since you have replaced just about every other component maybe it would be worth dropping a different trigger in there just to see if by some strange chance that has something to do with it. I mean your list of components seems legit so this would really be for experimentation purposes. But what if it made a difference. By the way I am only suggesting this considering that you intend to keep the rifle otherwise I support other’s view that you return the rifle, it is a guarantee after all.

I know it’s long and convoluted, but you really need to read this thread, my friend

 

[BillyNg]

I read your long winded OP and that was enough for me. Another bloated "no expense spared" custom build sob story. I wish I had a nickel for every one. And for me my comments are well intentions.

Just what I thought. You went the Ms. Clio route. This happening is quite rare, which is why things have gone down the way they have. And why things are getting resolved, the way they are. I'm surprised the friendly Jamaican didn't tell you all of this when she read your palm and explained what the current lunar cycle means for your career.

 

[walt willis]

This won't be short, I apologize for that now.

July 2019: I plan and commission a no-expense-spared build. Work out details with extremely well-known and respected builder who offers 1/2 MOA guarantee.

Manners PRS-1 (my choice)
Impact 737R (my choice)
Bartlein 20" Heavy Palma in .308 (length and contour my choice, brand is builder's choice)
Area 419 Hellfire brake (builder's choice)
Leupold Mark-5 HD 5-25 mounted in a Spuhr (my choice)
TriggerTech Diamond set to 12oz (weight is my choice, trigger is builder's choice)

(the short barrel here was for stiffness, I wanted a tack-driver and was willing to give up velocity. I wanted a 1/4 MOA rifle. The builder doesn't guarantee it, but the results I see from others with his rifles suggested that this was an entirely reasonable goal)

September 2019: Take delivery of the rifle. Might even have taken deliver in late August .. build went fast, primarily because the PRS-1 was in-stock at Altus.

Immediately thereafter discover that rifle doesn't shoot well. Over the next 6 months or so I spend countless hours pouring over the rifle and spend over a grand trying to figure out what's wrong, mostly on ammo (varying factory match loads since I do not reload). Eventually try custom ammo from McCourt Munitions who is praised both here at the Hide and by the builder. No real difference. Rifle still shoots about .9 MOA on average. Sometimes I get a .7 MOA group, but sometimes I get a 1.2 MOA group. No really common pattern/dispersion to the groups. For those who will ask why I hadn't contacted the builder for 6 months, the not-great answer is that I had an assumption that a custom-build with an accuracy guarantee would not leave any shop without being shot/fired for accuracy. I assumed that the gun was okay and something else was wrong [likely the component that pulls the trigger]. So I went through a lot of different ammo, and re-torquings, and a couple of different scopes, and pulled the brake on/off a few times, etc.

March 2020: Out of ideas, I contact the builder. There are a few back and forth emails and suggestions to try. Turns out the rifle was never fired from the factory and I should have contacted him 6 months earlier ... lesson learned. Builder's suggestions improve nothing. Progress during this time is very slow. Covid kills my wife's father and almost takes her brother. I live just outside of NYC and my wife and I watch in horror as every few days someone else we know dies. Ranges are closed obviously.

June 2020: Ranges are open again, progress continues, nothing improves. Builder and I decide rifle needs to be returned. Not trusting Fedex/UPS or my own packing skills, I drive it to the builder myself (503 miles each way). Within a few hours he confirms that his groups are identical to mine, something is definitely wrong with the rifle. He notes that extractor tension is too high, digging into the case rims. He fixes that. He shoots two groups and they are in the .6 to .8 MOA range. Looks ever so slight improved from what I was getting before, but two groups isn't exactly statistically significant. Either way, this still doesn't meet the .5 MOA accuracy guarantee. Builder keeps at it.

Between June and yesterday, the builder tries the following:

• Different scope
• Sends barreled action back to Impact Precision who claim it all looks perfect to them.
• Glass-Beds my Manners PRS-1 with my permission.
• Cuts a brand new barrel and installs it [that was done just this week]

Yesterday, I got an email from the builder showing the latest three 100-yard groups he shot with the brand new barrel. .452", .600", .792". While he doesn't say it directly in the email, I get the feeling that he has exhausted most/all possibilities and wants me to take the rifle back. [Asks me what I think of those groups, and politely mentions that he's running out of .308 ammo].

What do I do? What would you do? Am I expecting too much? I've had factory rifles (including a semi-auto) that shot better than this, so I feel like for the money I spent, I should have something that shoots ragged little holes.

No, I cannot just write it off and build another rifle somewhere else. No, I can't take it from him and hand it to [insert your favorite smith's name here] who will fix it for me for $X,XXX. Throwing more money at this is the absolute last resort ... slotted after "light the rifle on fire to see if that helps" on the list of possible next steps.

Any help/advice/well-intentioned-comment is greatly appreciated.

Had a friend that got a souped up sniper rifle from a Navy SEAL for half the cost he put into the weapon system because he said it had piss poor groups.
I'll let you in on a little forgotten secret!
Harmonics!
You MUST tune the rifle to the ammo or the ammo to the rifle!
Just as you MUST tune a HAM radio antenna to the frequency you MUST also do the same for your weapon!
There are many other factors, but this seems to be to most overlooked.
Good luck fella!

 

[Fig]

I don't get it...? Are you suggesting subjecting the rifle to a strong EMP may fix the problem?

Points for originality...I guess.

Had a friend that got a souped up sniper rifle from a Navy SEAL...

This is what we call in the trade "Autofuckery".

 

[never_summer]

I can’t wait for the next post of... “you should have done something that maybe if I had read this thread would have been addressed”

 

[BillyNg]

I can’t wait for the next post of... “you should have done something that maybe if I had read this thread would have been addressed”

Yep. Any second now someone's going to tell us he's sure the problem is with the barrel.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

For those questioning the OP’s shooting skills, rest techniques or anything else silly, did you read the part where he drove it to the builder and the builder can’t get it to meet their own guarantee?

Where he should have started and stopped was with FGMM. Any time I have had a new 308 I have tested both 168gr and 175gr as a baseline for accuracy. I have NEVER had or seen a good shooting rifle that didn’t group great with FGMM. In this case if it shot poorly on the first attempt I would have checked torque on everything and tested a different lot of both. At that point the builder would be getting a call. At the end of the day it’s their problem to deal with and it seems like this has been going on for far too long.

Even if it is the barrels harmonics due to the length and ammo (although I’ve had plenty of 20” 308’s that hammered with FGMM) it still shouldn’t be his problem. He paid for a 1/2 moa gun and he didn’t receive a 1/2 MOA gun and he’s spent a lot of time and money trying to get it to shoot.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

He paid for a 1/2 moa gun and he didn’t receive a 1/2 MOA gun and he’s spent a lot of time and money trying to get it to shoot.

And what does that tell us? LOL. A fucking monkey can build a 1/2 moa rifle and he ordered one like a GM during the 1960s. The Pontiac GT-37 with a GTO underneath. What's with the fucking column shift? Over a year later and that column shift is still there.

 

[BillyNg]

And what does that tell us? LOL. A fucking monkey can build a 1/2 moa rifle and he ordered one like a GM during the 1960s. The Pontiac GT-37 with a GTO underneath. What's with the fucking column shift? Over a year later and that column shift is still there.

It tells people, at least people without literacy issues, that there's an issue with the gun and the builder is resolving it. Thankfully, the people who can read are already aware.

 

[Fig]

Well, you’ve got two expert, rifle exorcists workin’ on it.

My guess is that between them they will figure it out what’s cursed and in the end

 

[Secant]

I don't get it...? Are you suggesting subjecting the rifle to a strong EMP may fix the problem?

Exactly right. If you don't have an EMP readily accessible, just wait 500 seconds after one of these to shoot your 3-round group and evaluate HARMONICS

 

[Paladin300]

This gun sounds like it is shooting pretty well and the smith has gone the extra mile to make it shoot, two different barrels? But I would agree it is not 1/2 moa. So, I have a question and then a comment. First, Is this rifle throated in any special way? (ex. .25 or further to the lands beyond factory coal.) The reason I ask is because that can make a huge difference when shooting factory ammo. I have a completely custom built 338 from one of the best builders in the country in my opinion. I have had another gun smith of equal competency go through and work on this gun. It is as close to perfect as a gun can be with teir 1 components. It shoots factory ammo of all kinds at 1-2 MOA. Not good you say and you would be correct, except that it was not built to shoot factor ammo though I hoped it would. We built it to shoot 2200 yards plus, therefore we throated it extra long to shoot the big 300 bergers at 2800 plus while keeping pressure with in reason. Factory coal is 3.60 my rifle is a full 4.0 and that is sitting .15 off the lands. Shoots one raged hole 5 shot groups and 10 shot groups measure less than .5 moa consistantly, out to 1250 we are sub moa. I say all that to say rifles like what they like and hand loading is the only way to get there. I have another completely custom 6.5 that shoots everything you feed it 3/4 moa or better but run 140 custom comps thru it at 2700 fps with a 5 sd over H4350 and it is magic. You would be hard pressed to tell where one hole begins and another ends. That is hard to do with factory ammo. Atleast I have not seen it done but a few times through the years and most of those groups where shot out of a bench rest gun shooting hornady ammo in 22-250. (It would consistantly shoot groups that measured less than .25 cc with 5 shots.) That takes special skills, equipment and ammo. Expecting any gun to shoot 1/4 moa with factory ammo is asking a lot. If the gun is consistently shooting .75 or less with factory ammo in 308 I would be thrilled. I know he garrantees 1/2 moa but with what ammo? Not everyone can shoot that well. My bet is that the gun has a little to much freebore for factory ammo but is still a great shooter and with some tinkering with different loads would shoot less than half moa as you want it to, especially with those build components. One last question. How are the groups being measured? (Center to Center, or overall group size, Outside to outside, furthest spread)
Just my thoughts and questions.

I agree with several other posters. If you can't live with it ask for you money back. All he can do is say no or honor the 1/2 moa guarantee.

 

[pnorris]

Here is what I have learned from this thread. Mike from Tac ops and the guys At SAC are stand up guys. Bravo to you gentlemen

 

[mark stapleton]

For all those saying might be the shooter it was the gunsmith shooting it and could not obtain 1/2 moa , he guaranteed 1/2 moa , he has not delivered , demand your money back and suggest that you will share your experience via the internet and seel legal advice if a refund is not forthcoming .
The lesson for him is dont make claims you cant fullfill , test shoot rifles before releasing them

 

[NWnewguy]

For all those saying might be the shooter it was the gunsmith shooting it and could not obtain 1/2 moa , he guaranteed 1/2 moa , he has not delivered , demand your money back and suggest that you will share your experience via the internet and seel legal advice if a refund is not forthcoming .
The lesson for him is dont make claims you cant fullfill , test shoot rifles before releasing them

Did you read the thread?

The company is doing everything within the realm of physics to get the rifle to shoot. They don't make the components, they just make them work together. I am confident that the company would give him a refund if that's what he wanted.

It would also appear that his experience has already been shared on the internet, since it's in this very thread. Additionally, if any normal person was to read it, they would come to the conclusion that SAC is a stand up company run by Mark Gordon, a quality individual. And that Mike of TacOps is an amazing guy that has been super helpful when he didn't even have any skin in this particular game.

 

[Fig]

Don’t even bother.

 

[Sniperstud]

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I wish there was a way to make it so that, when you post some stupid shit because you were too lazy to read the entire thread, it would not add to your post count, but subtract from it. Some folks just need consequences.

 

[MikeRTacOps]

No problem, and thanks for taking the time to talk it out with me. Glad we are on the same page and nice to make a new friend.

Just a heads up I'm going to try to mail out your barrel tomorrow if I don't make it def. on Monday

Check...

Mike R.

 

[GrouseFeather]

This won't be short, I apologize for that now.

July 2019: I plan and commission a no-expense-spared build. Work out details with extremely well-known and respected builder who offers 1/2 MOA guarantee.

Manners PRS-1 (my choice)
Impact 737R (my choice)
Bartlein 20" Heavy Palma in .308 (length and contour my choice, brand is builder's choice)
Area 419 Hellfire brake (builder's choice)
Leupold Mark-5 HD 5-25 mounted in a Spuhr (my choice)
TriggerTech Diamond set to 12oz (weight is my choice, trigger is builder's choice)

(the short barrel here was for stiffness, I wanted a tack-driver and was willing to give up velocity. I wanted a 1/4 MOA rifle. The builder doesn't guarantee it, but the results I see from others with his rifles suggested that this was an entirely reasonable goal)

September 2019: Take delivery of the rifle. Might even have taken deliver in late August .. build went fast, primarily because the PRS-1 was in-stock at Altus.

Immediately thereafter discover that rifle doesn't shoot well. Over the next 6 months or so I spend countless hours pouring over the rifle and spend over a grand trying to figure out what's wrong, mostly on ammo (varying factory match loads since I do not reload). Eventually try custom ammo from McCourt Munitions who is praised both here at the Hide and by the builder. No real difference. Rifle still shoots about .9 MOA on average. Sometimes I get a .7 MOA group, but sometimes I get a 1.2 MOA group. No really common pattern/dispersion to the groups. For those who will ask why I hadn't contacted the builder for 6 months, the not-great answer is that I had an assumption that a custom-build with an accuracy guarantee would not leave any shop without being shot/fired for accuracy. I assumed that the gun was okay and something else was wrong [likely the component that pulls the trigger]. So I went through a lot of different ammo, and re-torquings, and a couple of different scopes, and pulled the brake on/off a few times, etc.

March 2020: Out of ideas, I contact the builder. There are a few back and forth emails and suggestions to try. Turns out the rifle was never fired from the factory and I should have contacted him 6 months earlier ... lesson learned. Builder's suggestions improve nothing. Progress during this time is very slow. Covid kills my wife's father and almost takes her brother. I live just outside of NYC and my wife and I watch in horror as every few days someone else we know dies. Ranges are closed obviously.

June 2020: Ranges are open again, progress continues, nothing improves. Builder and I decide rifle needs to be returned. Not trusting Fedex/UPS or my own packing skills, I drive it to the builder myself (503 miles each way). Within a few hours he confirms that his groups are identical to mine, something is definitely wrong with the rifle. He notes that extractor tension is too high, digging into the case rims. He fixes that. He shoots two groups and they are in the .6 to .8 MOA range. Looks ever so slight improved from what I was getting before, but two groups isn't exactly statistically significant. Either way, this still doesn't meet the .5 MOA accuracy guarantee. Builder keeps at it.

Between June and yesterday, the builder tries the following:

• Different scope
• Sends barreled action back to Impact Precision who claim it all looks perfect to them.
• Glass-Beds my Manners PRS-1 with my permission.
• Cuts a brand new barrel and installs it [that was done just this week]

Yesterday, I got an email from the builder showing the latest three 100-yard groups he shot with the brand new barrel. .452", .600", .792". While he doesn't say it directly in the email, I get the feeling that he has exhausted most/all possibilities and wants me to take the rifle back. [Asks me what I think of those groups, and politely mentions that he's running out of .308 ammo].

What do I do? What would you do? Am I expecting too much? I've had factory rifles (including a semi-auto) that shot better than this, so I feel like for the money I spent, I should have something that shoots ragged little holes.

No, I cannot just write it off and build another rifle somewhere else. No, I can't take it from him and hand it to [insert your favorite smith's name here] who will fix it for me for $X,XXX. Throwing more money at this is the absolute last resort ... slotted after "light the rifle on fire to see if that helps" on the list of possible next steps.

Any help/advice/well-intentioned-comment is greatly appreciated.

My friend Robert (Bob) McCoy a builder of rifles, small arms ballistics expert Aberdeen, has built two identical rifles that never would shoot the same. The first was a serious Tack driver and the second not so much though very good. The possibilities of why are many so in your situation you probably need to ask yourself why you need an absolute Tack driver. If you absolutely must have a Tack driver then you probably have to build another rifle and sell the first. Grousefeather

 

[JMGlasgow]

Did you even read the whole thread so far?

 

[Michigangunner]

Just shoot it and enjoy it . A lot of time and money went into it and if that's all it does thats what it does. If your shooting .6 moa it still gonna shoot better than you at prs matches

 

[dimar1492]

Just shoot it and enjoy it . A lot of time and money went into it and if that's all it does thats what it does. If your shooting .6 moa it still gonna shoot better than you at prs matches

Uhhh, he shouldn't have to settle for that level of precision especially if better is guaranteed. Not sure if you read the whole thread but his rig is being taken care of. Also there is a lot more to precision rifle shooting outside of what someone can or can't do at a PRS match.

 

[Michigangunner]

Uhhh no, that defeats the purpose of a guarantee. Also there is a lot more to the precision rifle shooting outside of what someone can or can't do at a PRS match.

I mean your getting .6 moa at 1k thats roughly 6 inches are you better at judging wind and shooting tighter than 6 inch groups at 1k. No disrespect just saying .6 moa all around is pretty good

 

[dimar1492]

I mean your getting .6 moa at 1k thats roughly 6 inches are you better at judging wind and shooting tighter than 6 inch groups at 1k. No disrespect just saying .6 moa all around is pretty good

This rifle was shooting .6 at 100.

 

[Michigangunner]

This rifle was shooting .6 at 100.

Yea if its consistent .6 at every distance that pretty good shooting unless your just a bench rest shooter. I get why your mad tho I have stock savage thatll do .5 moa

 

[JMGlasgow]

Savage...lol. I guess if you want to talk about a complete waste of money Savage leads the way.

 

[Michigangunner]

Savage...lol. I guess if you want to talk about a complete waste of money Savage leads the way.

Look like shit and have sloppy actions but they shoot lights out

 

[redneckbmxer24]

My friend Robert (Bob) McCoy a builder of rifles, small arms ballistics expert Aberdeen, has built two identical rifles that never would shoot the same. The first was a serious Tack driver and the second not so much though very good. The possibilities of why are many so in your situation you probably need to ask yourself why you need an absolute Tack driver. If you absolutely must have a Tack driver then you probably have to build another rifle and sell the first. Grousefeather

Sounds like a shitty “gunsmith” who worked himself into a position if that’s the case.

Major manufacturers are slapping together rifles from mass produced parts that will shoot 1/2moa more times than not. Remington was doing that with their LE line and 5R’s two decades ago although they’ve been going down hill the last decade. My point is though that this has been capable on a mass produced scale for at least 20 years.

If you can’t take a top tire action, barrel, and chassis and make a rifle that will shoot sub 1/2 MOA then you’re a fuck up or a component is fucked up. PERIOD. If you can’t diagnose the issue then you’re sure as fuck not a gunsmith. Hell you can buy a couple grand worth of components and a couple tools and torque together a rifle in your garage that will shoot 1/4moa as long as you and your ammo are up to it.

As my dad always says, an ex is a has been, and a pert is a drip under pressure.

 

[JMGlasgow]

Michigangunner,

You forgot terrible extractors, terrible ejectors, poor machining, etc. And before you bring up the "upgrade" kits for the ejector and extractor, I'll just say been there, done that, didn't help at all. No amount of money can polish the turd that is a Savage.

 

[Secant]

As my dad always says, an ex is a has been, and a pert is a drip under pressure.

Uh, was he having a stroke

 

[308pirate]

This gun sounds like it is shooting pretty well and the smith has gone the extra mile to make it shoot, two different barrels? But I would agree it is not 1/2 moa. So, I have a question and then a comment. First, Is this rifle throated in any special way? (ex. .25 or further to the lands beyond factory coal.) The reason I ask is because that can make a huge difference when shooting factory ammo. I have a completely custom built 338 from one of the best builders in the country in my opinion. I have had another gun smith of equal competency go through and work on this gun. It is as close to perfect as a gun can be with teir 1 components. It shoots factory ammo of all kinds at 1-2 MOA. Not good you say and you would be correct, except that it was not built to shoot factor ammo though I hoped it would. We built it to shoot 2200 yards plus, therefore we throated it extra long to shoot the big 300 bergers at 2800 plus while keeping pressure with in reason. Factory coal is 3.60 my rifle is a full 4.0 and that is sitting .15 off the lands. Shoots one raged hole 5 shot groups and 10 shot groups measure less than .5 moa consistantly, out to 1250 we are sub moa. I say all that to say rifles like what they like and hand loading is the only way to get there. I have another completely custom 6.5 that shoots everything you feed it 3/4 moa or better but run 140 custom comps thru it at 2700 fps with a 5 sd over H4350 and it is magic. You would be hard pressed to tell where one hole begins and another ends. That is hard to do with factory ammo. Atleast I have not seen it done but a few times through the years and most of those groups where shot out of a bench rest gun shooting hornady ammo in 22-250. (It would consistantly shoot groups that measured less than .25 cc with 5 shots.) That takes special skills, equipment and ammo. Expecting any gun to shoot 1/4 moa with factory ammo is asking a lot. If the gun is consistently shooting .75 or less with factory ammo in 308 I would be thrilled. I know he garrantees 1/2 moa but with what ammo? Not everyone can shoot that well. My bet is that the gun has a little to much freebore for factory ammo but is still a great shooter and with some tinkering with different loads would shoot less than half moa as you want it to, especially with those build components. One last question. How are the groups being measured? (Center to Center, or overall group size, Outside to outside, furthest spread)
Just my thoughts and questions.

I agree with several other posters. If you can't live with it ask for you money back. All he can do is say no or honor the 1/2 moa guarantee.

For all those saying might be the shooter it was the gunsmith shooting it and could not obtain 1/2 moa , he guaranteed 1/2 moa , he has not delivered , demand your money back and suggest that you will share your experience via the internet and seel legal advice if a refund is not forthcoming .
The lesson for him is dont make claims you cant fullfill , test shoot rifles before releasing them

Just shoot it and enjoy it . A lot of time and money went into it and if that's all it does thats what it does. If your shooting .6 moa it still gonna shoot better than you at prs matches

Do you three not realize how dumb you look by posting the above and having no clue what the hell went on here?

 

[Winny94]

The rifle was shot for groups between 100 and 300 yards. Results all routinely the same. I'm not sure what relevance this question has though. A rifle that can't group at 100 is not magically going to group better at 300.

What is a 'tuner'? I've not heard the term before, but if that's a smith who tunes rifles then yes, I've got a tuner. His name is Mark and he owns Short Action Customs.

If you're talking about tuned ammo, then yes to that as well. When I exhausted all OTC match options (pretty much every flavor of FGMM), I turned to @FCS (Andrew McCourt from McCourt Munitions) to build me ammo for my rifle. I tried 14 different loads he provided me based on his experience both working with Mark @ SAC, as well as from his own SAC rifle(s). Mark is working with Andrew on chamber spec for my Krieger barrel based on what Andrew intends to throw down my barrel (I defer to experts wherever I can).

On the contrary, its not uncommon to have a rifle shoot bugholes at 100 and barely be MOA (or worse) at distance. Vice Versa is also true.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Michigangunner,

You forgot terrible extractors, terrible ejectors, poor machining, etc. And before you bring up the "upgrade" kits for the ejector and extractor, I'll just say been there, done that, didn't help at all. No amount of money can polish the turd that is a Savage.

So, you had a similar experience with a rifle like the OP?

 

[steve123]

I didn't read the whole thread because we've seen so many like it throughout the years.

Nothing against anybody, not the smiths, or the OP.

Here's my advice. Sell the rifle and cut your losses because it's been bad luck to you. That rifle might make someone else very happy.

Start over with a different strategy.

OP, have a true BR rifle built in 6mmBRA done by Alex Wheeler and find someone to load for you equal to the gun and the smith. Because, IMO, if you want the highest level of precision that's what needs to be done. Use custom flat base Bartsbullets for 100Y to 400Y and custom BTHP vld's for long range.
You'll need to buy the appropriate rests as well.

This coming from a guy that loves tactical repeaters as well as accurate rifles but if I wanted sub 1/2" all day long and common 1/4" groups, that's what I would do.

Bart, the guy that makes those bullet shot the 600Y BR record of .282" for 5 shots. I saw pics of many groups he shot at 100Y during """load developement""" that were all on the same target that were basically one large hole to a few in the 0's, most low .2's.

 

[Baron23]

Here's my advice. Sell the rifle and cut your losses because it's been bad luck to you. That rifle might make someone else very happy.

 

[steve123]

Ha

Or he can keep it and we'll still be reading this thread with the same results a year from now. It took me a while to figure out that life is too short to F-around with hot messes but I did. The short cut is getting divorced early on, not 20 years later.

There's tons of regular guys that are 1 moa shooters, or worse, that buy rifles because of how they look or what they are. I know a couple super wealthy guys like this. These guns get out of the safe to be admired then get a box of FGMM fired through them once every 2 years. They's happy guys hitting that 24" plate at 675Y!

ETA - both these guys received their $ through inheritance, one was a school teacher, yes regular guys/shooters. It's not uncommon for the ex school teacher to show up with $10,000 worth of whatever guns turned his fancy the next time I see him.

 

[Baron23]

Ha

Or he can keep it and we'll still be reading this thread with the same results a year from now. It took me a while to figure out that life is too short to F-around with hot messes but I did. The short cut is getting divorced early on, not 20 years later.

There's tons of regular guys that are 1 moa shooters, or worse, that buy rifles because of how they look or what they are. I know a couple super wealthy guys like this. These guns get out of the safe to be admired then get a box of FGMM fired through them once every 2 years. They's happy guys hitting that 24" plate at 675Y!

Are you aware that in this thread the original renowned gunsmith and another renowned gunsmith are reported to be completely rebuilding the gun w new components?

sorry, but you are like the 12th person to not read the thread and post a complete non sequitur.

 

[steve123]

Are you aware that in this thread the original renowned gunsmith and another renowned gunsmith are reported to be completely rebuilding the gun w new components?

sorry, but you are like the 12th person to not read the thread and post a complete non sequitur.

Even still.

I stand by my original post, all of it.