Gunsmithing What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

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PoisonMiller

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Minuteman
Sep 6, 2009
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Indiana
#1
I'm considering getting a SPS Varmint .308 to set up as a... good-enough M40A5-inspired rifle. Imagine total rifle package in about $1400.

Functionally very similar, so that if you get used to one, you should do well with the other with not much of a learning curve.

Problem with this is the Varmint is a 26" barrel, and I want to get it to M40A5 spec length (but start out with a M40A3 style crown while saving for the brake and thread job, on maybe another barrel even.)

I could have A.J. Brown cut and crown it for me, but that'd cost $100 not including shipping both ways. (He's far enough away that gas money would outweigh shipping costs.)

I am currently considering cutting it, then hand crowning it with a PTG Cooper Target Crown. That crown is close enough to the type of crown they use on the M40A3, at least in my concern. This would cost $65 + shipping, and I'd have a tool to touch it up with or do other barrels with if it works well.

I would like to hear from people who have experience with these tools, and what results they have gotten. Before / After groups, pictures of finished crown, and testimonials.

I may end up just having it professionally done, but I like DIY things (I plan to bed the stock and scope base myself, along with some custom stock work to make it the way I want it to be) and if I can do this myself, great.
 
#2
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

How do you plan on cutting the barrel?

Can it be done? Yes. Do I recommend it? No.

To do this right and have it look good you need a lathe and a ridge set-up. Those hand crown tools are for touching up crowns that have already been cut the correct professional way.

These tools are not for chucking up in your drill and cutting a crown.

You spend $65.00 on the tool and you have no luck you're still going to need to send it and have it fixed and maybe for more money after your attempt didn't work.

Not trying to discourage you but some things are just meant to be done a specific way, and may save you money in the long run.
 
#3
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Well, I was totally heading for gunsmithing, but I watched a view videos of it being done... and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I planned on doing it completely by hand, first cutting slowly with a good hacksaw.

Then I would clean that up with a fine file, and while using plenty of lube, and cleaning often... carefully cut the crown by hand using the t-handle. It seems to be quite a bit like case trimming, just with no mechanical stop.

I figured, I'd shoot the rifle new to see how it shoots, cut just the crown as described above... test it again... if that worked out good, do the above process to 25". If that works, do it to a little over 24" and do extensive testing of accuracy.

If I decide at any point I don't like it, I sell the $65 tool for $40 or so, and have it fixed.
 
#4
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

You will need the tool and the correct Removable pilots to have a better chance of getting the job done. You could get lucky and the standard pilot may fit but then it may not. $72.00 for the set and $8.00 for each pilot. You don't want to use a fixed piloted tool.
 
#5
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

LOL let me save you a bit of time. Sure it will work, but a hacksaw takes a bit of time, go ahead and use the dremel.

Maybe you should just shoot it as is, put the money the chop cut crown would cost you towards the new barrel when you get ready for it.
 
#6
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I chopped the barrel on my Mosin Nagant and crowned it with a countersink. Accuracy wasn't affected at all .... it still shoots 2" at 100 yards
laugh.gif
I know, that's a different animal, but if you try it yourself it may just work out. It would be different if you had an expensive custom barrel.
 
#7
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

You can do it. I`ve done it on a few.... the main thing is to get a good square end on the lands.I also try to keep things square with reference to barrel o.d...It won`t be the same ( pretty ) as a rounded,or a 11* crown,but tests have shown as long as land ends are sharp it`s hard to tell one crown from another with repect to accuracy.
OMHO, mileage may vary.
Bill Larson
 
#8
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I got one of those things from Brownells 15 years ago and used it on a FAL. It only cuts when I push hard, and I can't push hard for a whole turn like a lathe. It had no effect on the 6 moa rifle.

I have seen surplus rifles cut down and crowned with an abrasive ball on an electric drill. They shot better after getting shorter.

I noticed that the 303 pilot fits tighter in a 30 cal bore than the 30 cal pilot.

I have bought 4 lathes since then, and I am never going to use the hand tool again.

p_080586909_1.jpg

Worthless
 
#9
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Threads like these make me want to buy a new rifle just to try stuff on.

I can't afford to dink around with my work gun, but it sure would be fun to try the "hacksaw and crown" job especially at the range with some chrono testing thrown in.

I guess I will have to see what kind of deal I can get after the Remington Armorers School.
 
#10
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I saw an article somewhere, where a guy took a factory Remington 770 .30-06 and the Brownell's tool to the range.

He shot a 1.5" group at 100 yards with the factory barrel... then while on the range he crowned with the Brownell's tool and then shot another group measuring 0.5" at 100 yards.

I was kindof hoping to hear first-hand testimonials like that.
 
#11
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

well then cordless dremel and the crowning tool then. I would stop whatever I was doing if I noticed someone else at the range with a hacksaw, That would be worth recording. So far the funniest thing I have seen is a father son team shooting on the 5yd pistol. Son was shooting and the father had the biggest pair of fuckin Bino's I have ever seen watching the hits with them. I almost pissed my self laghing so hard at this.

Anyway

You might just look into the Savage 10FCP mcmillan or whatever its called, 308, McM A-5 stock and I think they are kicking the 1k mark, not a bad setup from what I have read around here on the hide.
 
#12
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

snipers hide...for the serious tactical marksman

some here deal in surgically precise gear to surgically place a projectile at distance, and we go to the people that got the skill sets to make it happen....they are not hobbyists !
 
#13
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison Miller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm considering getting a SPS Varmint .308 to set up as a... good-enough M40A5-inspired rifle. Imagine total rifle package in about $1400.

I could have A.J. Brown cut and crown it for me, but that'd cost $100 not including shipping both ways.

I watched a view videos of it being done... and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I planned on doing it completely by hand, first cutting slowly with a good hacksaw.

Then I would clean that up with a fine file </div></div>

Above are excerpts from one or more of your post's concerning the "Hand Job" you propose to give your barrel.

Dude, give it up. If you cant afford $100.00 +shipping to have it done correctly, your wasting your time. It's either right or wrong, no gray area.

FYI, precision rifles should be more than just "good enough" and the hand tools you speak of are for touch up only. They’re not for metal removal like will be required after you hack the end of a barrel off.
 
#14
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I didn't say I couldn't afford it.

I just said if it's something can be reasonably done on one's own, I might try.

I'm just giving this idea a fighting chance before I turn my nose up and assume it won't work right.

William, I see you manufacture precision rifles. Have you ever attempted to use these tools to crown a barrel after cutting? That could be a good test of their capability, since you already have experience in performing work on precision rifles.

My point is, just because it's a hand-tool doesn't automatically make it imprecise. An L.E. Wilson Case Trimmer is an example of a precise hand tool.

I'd like to see actual results from using these tools properly.

[Edit:]

I'd also like to point out, the good enough statement was in context to a $4000+ weapons system. I won't be able to afford anything over $1500, however I will be able to put together a rifle that is functionally similar and "Good Enough" for me.

Here are the expected specs in the end:

* Remington 700 SPS Varmint, barrel cut to 25" from recoil lugs, and Surefire brake/adaptor installed:
Although the quality of the action and barrel are not as high, it uses a 6-groove 1-12" twist as the Marines do. It should be acceptable at least until I get another barrel down the road.

* Choate Tactical Stock:
Similar to the A5, moreso than even the similarly priced Bell and Carlson. I plan to properly bed this stock with Devcon. Although it has some variance in shape and weight, it would work well for the application.

* Falcon Menace 4-14x44mm FFP with EMD and Mil-Adjustments:
Functionally similar to the S&B, uses same type of adjustments and same style of reticle, just modified slightly. Although optics will be lower quality they will be 'Good Enough', being on par with $1000 Leupolds from many accounts.

* Harris SBRM
* Kersten Cheek Rest
 
#15
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I've never tried those tools but I can tell you this, the finish will suffer due to chatter. There’s a difference between being able to afford things and wanting to afford things. I under stand the concept of wanting to do it for your self, after all, that's what got me to where I'm at now. At some point one has to realize their limitations be it equipment or skill issues.

If it were me, I'd shoot the rifle as is and possibly bed instead. You'll do your self more good going that route and it'll be an easier proposition. Place the SPS in a proper stock that’s been pillar bedded and feed it custom tailored hand loads and you’ll be smiling in no time.
 
#16
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I plan on bedding the stock before I even seriously shoot it.

I might shoot it once beforehand just to see how much accuracy improvement I get just from bedding the stock.

I reload already, for .223 and 8mm Mauser and seem to be doing good with it, I put 4 consecutive shots into the same hole at 100 yards with the .223, then ruined the group with a flinch
frown.gif


I considered an SPS Tactical and I may just go that route anyway and use the take-off stock to pay for a new barrel the way I want it down the road. It's sounding like a better plan albeit not as attractive aesthetically.
 
#17
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I allowed my nephew to use my -06 last year. He carried it around in the truck in typical Mississippi hunter style. Muzzle down in the mud on the truck floorboard. When I pointed out the error of his ways, he carried the rifle down to a local "gunsmith" to have the muzzle trimmed and recrowned. That fellow used one of the Brownell type tools and circumferentially scored the lands for an inch inside the muzzle...took it from a half inch rifle to a 1 and 1/2 inch shooter. Sent the barrel back to PacNor and they cut, crowned, and refinished the outside of the barrel for $65 plus shipping. Money well spent. I'd avoid the hand tool unless you get one without a fixed pilot as was mentioned before...and even then the costs would be about the same. JMHO
 
#18
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Thank you for your response.

I have heard this can be a problem especially if the muzzle isn't cleaned often from debris. A few suggest to shove a patch up through the barrel to catch debris and replace it often.

I suppose it could be more of a problem with the steel pilot rather than the brass one.

Is yours scored all around or mostly on one side? It could be indicative of a power drill, or a lathe being improperly used.

I'm starting to think more toward the Tactical or just having a professional do it though.
If I were to get the Varmint and have a precision smith (A.J. Brown, he's a member here) cut and put a crown on it, would there be any appreciable accuracy/consistent improvement over the factory crown?
 
#19
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison Miller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you for your response.

I have heard this can be a problem especially if the muzzle isn't cleaned often from debris. A few suggest to shove a patch up through the barrel to catch debris and replace it often.

I suppose it could be more of a problem with the steel pilot rather than the brass one.

Is yours scored all around or mostly on one side? It could be indicative of a power drill, or a lathe being improperly used.

I'm starting to think more toward the Tactical or just having a professional do it though.
If I were to get the Varmint and have a precision smith (A.J. Brown, he's a member here) cut and put a crown on it, would there be any appreciable accuracy/consistent improvement over the factory crown? </div></div>

A fixed piloted tool the pilot is part of the reamer or cutter. When used in a lathe the barrel spins around the fixed cutter screwing up the lands and groves. If you were doing this by hand then the cutter would spin in side the bore screwing up the bore. Never use a fixed piloted tool or reamer no matter what anyone says otherwise if you like your barrels coming out correctly.

A removable piloted tool uses a removable pilot that is attached to the cutter that is matched to the bore diameter. The pilot will guide the cutter in the bore however the pilot and the barrel rotates around the cutter protecting the bore.

In most cases the pilots are precision ground Carbide.

Will a re-cut crown be better then a factory crown? Maybe, maybe not. Depends if the factory crown was cut correctly to begin with.
 
#20
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison Miller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw an article somewhere, where a guy took a factory Remington 770 .30-06 and the Brownell's tool to the range.

He shot a 1.5" group at 100 yards with the factory barrel... then while on the range he crowned with the Brownell's tool and then shot another group measuring 0.5" at 100 yards.

I was kindof hoping to hear first-hand testimonials like that. </div></div>

I'd be willing to bet that article you read was in a gun rag and sponsored by Brownells.
 
#21
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Really depends on what your after. Accuracy wise, the pro job most likely is the way to go. Now if what your after is some time gun plumbing, and you enjoy working on your gun like most of us then the DIY approach is the way to go. Nothing your going to do will do any damage that can't be fixed. Cost is a non issue for the amount your going to spend. Let's face it guns, cars, booze, etc. all cost money, it's all about having fun.
 
#22
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

With all due respect, leave the barrel alone.

A rifle is either an M40a5 or it isn't. If it differs in any way, then it's not. It is its own brand of critter; and I wouldn't be putting forth any fictions about it being something, or like something, that it ain't.

Departures from the standard are then of not so much consequence, and if I was going to allow any, I'd not be so particular about a barrel length being an inch or two longer. It's not like it's going to degrade the performance, probably quite the contrary; and certainly not enough to be putting myself in a quandry of this proportion.

Besides, when you do mods to a factory barrel, what you get for your money is a factory barrel that doesn't shoot any better, just costs more. If appearances were the key issue, why depart from the standard at all in the first place?

If this was the ONLY departure from the M40a5 Holy Grail Standard, I'd have the alteration done, with a quality aftermarket barrel of the proper dimensions, etc., and by a reputable gunsmith. If you're going to spend the money to do the mod, spend enough to ensure it actually buys you something that's more singificant than just appearances.

Otherwise, I don't see the point of all this.

Greg
 
#23
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

With all due respect, please drop the "FEEL" and use "THINK" OK ??

<span style="font-weight: bold">What do you guys think about Hand-Crowning?</span>

now don't that look and sound much better ?

personally i THINK it should be done by someone who has many hours accrued in this process, NOT for some amateur.
 
#24
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Pete:

There are people who give primacy to their kinesthetic system. That's reflected in their language, and in other parts of their behaviour - such people tend to overeat and are usually heavy.

There's nothing wrong with that. People are different.
 
#25
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Personally I have access to a lathe and prefer that way.

BUT...! If that were not the case I would use what I had to the best of my ability. (Assuming I couldn't get it anywhere to get it taken care of.)
 
#26
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A rifle is either an M40a5 or it isn't.</div></div>

I understand this completely, which is why I said M40a5 <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">inspired</span></span> rifle. It'd never be an M40a5 no matter how accurately I duplicate it. However, if I spent a lot of money it could be almost exactly like an M40a5, to the point that it doesn't shoot or handle with any appreciable difference.

The point isn't to play like a Marine though, it's not about any bragging rights, it's to get acquainted with the style of rifle so shooting the real rifle wouldn't feel completely alien.

I don't have a lot of money though, so I'm doing the best I can.

If that doesn't make any sense to anybody I guess I don't really care.
smile.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pete:

There are people who give primacy to their kinesthetic system. That's reflected in their language, and in other parts of their behaviour - such people tend to overeat and are usually heavy.

There's nothing wrong with that. People are different.
</div></div>

I had to look up a word or two to understand this.

The reason I picked the word feel is, to me thinking and feeling are sometimes different. Thinking, to me, is analyzing data and coming up with the most logical conclusion. Feeling to me is, essentially what they call your gut instinct.

I'm not fat though, not skinny or fit, but not fat. I actually tend to under-eat.

grin.gif
 
#27
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mscott</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I chopped the barrel on my Mosin Nagant and crowned it with a countersink. Accuracy wasn't affected at all .... it still shoots 2" at 100 yards
laugh.gif
I know, that's a different animal, but if you try it yourself it may just work out. It would be different if you had an expensive custom barrel. </div></div>

I did the exact same thing on my mn 44...run the countersink in reverse with a big ole glob of cuorse polishing compound..it self centers and my accuracy actually improved...now, i dont know if i would try it on my sps...but then again, that 26 inch barrel is pretty heavy..
 
#28
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I'm a bit of a collector so I'd hate to go and modify my M91/30. Especially since it will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards if I do my part. (Great bore.)

I'm thinking more and more of just having a smith do it. Yes, I'd like to prove to myself whether or not it'd work but maybe I'll save that for down the road when I can afford to play with a barrel.
 
#30
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

As a complete ametuer and nOOb, I would like to say kuddos for WANTING to do it yourself! Everyone has to learn somewhere. BUT the crown of the barrel (IMO) is the most important part of the barrel. The chamber can have ever so much tolerance, the OD and ID can vary....You can hand load for these differences. The crown though? Most important part.

Why not just wait? I want the a5 spec for my SPS, but lets face it: some of us just dont have the money. I would suggest saving the $65 you'll spend on the tool, call GAP and order a SPEC barrel (believe its still Schneider) w/Surefire brake and all. Get the thick Recoil lug have the action true....ALL IN 1 Swing.

The next most important thing would be the stock.
Most will probably argue, but I feel optics should be the last priority. By then you'll determine if the gun shoots well enough to NEED the expsensive Glass.

Like I said Im a nOOb, but Im no rookie either....Flame On.
 
#31
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

You mentioned AJ Brown, but have you checked with anyone local to you??

I had a local guy do a cut and crown on a beater hunting rig at one point, he cut a nice crown on it and charged me $75 IIRC. Check with local smiths, and ask them their method. If you can't find anyone local, spend the $100 or more to have a professional out of state do it.

-matt
 
#32
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

Ill let you know how I "feel" about hand crowning when I hacksaw off my clunker SMLE that I'm building for a truck gun. I'm not worried about messing it up because the current crown is really messed up. I'm using the gun for a bunch of home gunsmithing projects that I would never do to one of my "good" rifles.
 
#33
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

I used one of the aforementioned hand crowners as recommended in the book "Accurizing the Factory Rifle". I modified it per the author's instructions. Despite my best efforts, I got a lot of chatter. It did not help the rifle shoot any better and the crown looked terrible.

Now that I have a lathe, I would never think about doing the hand crowning again, but that's just me.

The hand crowner would probably be fine for a "bottom of the boat" kinda gun.
 
#34
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JimT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I used one of the aforementioned hand crowners as recommended in the book "Accurizing the Factory Rifle". I modified it per the author's instructions. Despite my best efforts, I got a lot of chatter. It did not help the rifle shoot any better and the crown looked terrible.

Now that I have a lathe, I would never think about doing the hand crowning again, but that's just me.

The hand crowner would probably be fine for a "bottom of the boat" kinda gun.</div></div>


Is "bottom of the truck" the same???
 
#35
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's either right or wrong</div></div>

Thanks, William.

This thread makes Baby Jesus cry. </div></div>

"Jesus Wept"
 
#36
Re: What do you guys feel about Hand-Crowning?

AJ Brown is about 75 miles from me, but he's the only smith I know of that has a reputation with precision rifle. If I'm gunna get it done right I'm gunna get it done right.

If you know of a good precision gunsmith just west of Indianapolis, I'd like to know.

How much would a spec barrel w/ brake from GAP cost approximately? I kindof doubt I have that kind of money, tbh.
 
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