Hey all - I'm pretty much a noob to reloading & was hoping to learn what the most <span style="font-style: italic">significant</span> reloading variables are in terms of affect on POI precision. It seems that powder load consistency would be #1, but beyond that I don't know (brass, bullet, primers, powder,...). I've read quite a bit on the topic, but I haven't found any solid information on how variances in these components affect precision. I've got the cheapest of the cheap reloading equipment (Lee) and have reloaded about 300 rounds of 308 using random brass, Sierra Match King 175 gr (& Hornady Amax 168s), Hogdon Varget powder, and no-name primers. The only thing I'm meticulous about is the powder load - everything else is quick & dirty. Out of my AR10-T, I have consistently shot 1 moa at 100 yrds, but can't do any better so far. (there was a tantalizing 4 shot 0.45 moa group that I ruined with the last shot!) The Holy Grail for me & this gun would be 0.5 moa consistently - can I get there & how?
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What has the most effect on precision?
- Thread starter dknox
- Start date
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dknox</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey all - I'm pretty much a noob to reloading & was hoping to learn what the most <span style="font-style: italic">significant</span> reloading variables are in terms of affect on POI precision. It seems that powder load consistency would be #1, but beyond that I don't know (brass, bullet, primers, powder,...). I've read quite a bit on the topic, but I haven't found any solid information on how variances in these components affect precision. I've got the cheapest of the cheap reloading equipment (Lee) and have reloaded about 300 rounds of 308 using random brass, Sierra Match King 175 gr (& Hornady Amax 168s), Hogdon Varget powder, and no-name primers. The only thing I'm meticulous about is the powder load - everything else is quick & dirty. Out of my AR10-T, I have consistently shot 1 moa at 100 yrds, but can't do any better so far. (there was a tantalizing 4 shot 0.45 moa group that I ruined with the last shot!) <span style="color: #CC0000">The Holy Grail for me & this gun would be 0.5 moa consistently - can I get there & how?</span> </div></div>
is that even possible with a gas gun??
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dknox</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey all - I'm pretty much a noob to reloading & was hoping to learn what the most <span style="font-style: italic">significant</span> reloading variables are in terms of affect on POI precision. It seems that powder load consistency would be #1, but beyond that I don't know (brass, bullet, primers, powder,...). I've read quite a bit on the topic, but I haven't found any solid information on how variances in these components affect precision. I've got the cheapest of the cheap reloading equipment (Lee) and have reloaded about 300 rounds of 308 using random brass, Sierra Match King 175 gr (& Hornady Amax 168s), Hogdon Varget powder, and no-name primers. The only thing I'm meticulous about is the powder load - everything else is quick & dirty. Out of my AR10-T, I have consistently shot 1 moa at 100 yrds, but can't do any better so far. (there was a tantalizing 4 shot 0.45 moa group that I ruined with the last shot!) <span style="color: #CC0000">The Holy Grail for me & this gun would be 0.5 moa consistently - can I get there & how?</span> </div></div>
is that even possible with a gas gun??
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
Well, first, use the same brand of brass preferably from the same lot when shooting for accuracy. Prep the brass cases. Load bullets to max spec length. Try match primers.
When you say 0.5 moa, how many shots? 0.5moa 5 shot groups or 0.5 moa 3 shot groups? Also when you are shooting, are you shooting benchrest style? The way your rifle is supported matters greatly. Also wait 2 minutes between shots. With a semi auto, it is easy to get carried away with shooting too rapidly causing the barrel to heat up and whip.
Well, first, use the same brand of brass preferably from the same lot when shooting for accuracy. Prep the brass cases. Load bullets to max spec length. Try match primers.
When you say 0.5 moa, how many shots? 0.5moa 5 shot groups or 0.5 moa 3 shot groups? Also when you are shooting, are you shooting benchrest style? The way your rifle is supported matters greatly. Also wait 2 minutes between shots. With a semi auto, it is easy to get carried away with shooting too rapidly causing the barrel to heat up and whip.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
is that even possible with a gas gun??
</div></div>
It is with an AR based one for sure.
I'd say that .5 MOA with any gun consistently is a waste of time in any type of "tactical" gun, though. I'd much rather be able to place shots at unknown distances within 1 MOA than shoot .5 MOA groups just to say that I could.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
is that even possible with a gas gun??
It is with an AR based one for sure.
I'd say that .5 MOA with any gun consistently is a waste of time in any type of "tactical" gun, though. I'd much rather be able to place shots at unknown distances within 1 MOA than shoot .5 MOA groups just to say that I could.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dknox</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> have reloaded about 300 rounds of 308 using random brass, Sierra Match King 175 gr (& Hornady Amax 168s), Hogdon Varget powder, and no-name primers. </div></div>
Problem 1 (random brass) and problem 2 (different bullets) are stated above. You will not get top accuracy using mixed brass with different head stamps and different bullets. Pick one bullet and run with it. Your POI will most likely change. Pick the brass to use by either the most you have of 1 brand or the best brand you have.
IMO, the first top factor would be your case prep. The cases must be the same from one to the next. Mainly concentrate on the neck of the case. The Lee stuff is inexpensive, but should work just fine for you.
I have seen an AR10-T shoot tight groups (sub .5 MOA) like a bolt gun. You must also know how to drive an AR-10 and drive it well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dknox</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> have reloaded about 300 rounds of 308 using random brass, Sierra Match King 175 gr (& Hornady Amax 168s), Hogdon Varget powder, and no-name primers. </div></div>
Problem 1 (random brass) and problem 2 (different bullets) are stated above. You will not get top accuracy using mixed brass with different head stamps and different bullets. Pick one bullet and run with it. Your POI will most likely change. Pick the brass to use by either the most you have of 1 brand or the best brand you have.
IMO, the first top factor would be your case prep. The cases must be the same from one to the next. Mainly concentrate on the neck of the case. The Lee stuff is inexpensive, but should work just fine for you.
I have seen an AR10-T shoot tight groups (sub .5 MOA) like a bolt gun. You must also know how to drive an AR-10 and drive it well.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
Barrel
Brass
Bullet
Powder
Any of the above can either make you or break you. But if either is the WRONG one, it can sure mess things up.
Pay attention to Chad's post above.
Barrel
Brass
Bullet
Powder
Any of the above can either make you or break you. But if either is the WRONG one, it can sure mess things up.
Pay attention to Chad's post above.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Problem 1 (random brass) and problem 2 (different bullets) are stated above. You will not get top accuracy using mixed brass with different head stamps and different bullets. Pick one bullet and run with it. Your POI will most likely change. Pick the brass to use by either the most you have of 1 brand or the best brand you have.
IMO, the first top factor would be your case prep. The cases must be the same from one to the next. Mainly concentrate on the neck of the case. The Lee stuff is inexpensive, but should work just fine for you.
I have seen an AR10-T shoot tight groups (sub .5 MOA) like a bolt gun. You must also know how to drive an AR-10 and drive it well. </div></div>
I should have clarified - I've loaded & tested multiple batches of A-Maxs (~200 rnds) then switched to SMKs to see if there would be any improvement. I haven't tested enough to know if my gun likes the SMKs better. I will definitely pay more attention to the brass. I've noticed that some of the Lake City brass I have responds/feels different in my press (like it's slightly thicker), but the head stamps are identical. I guess this would be a mfr lot issue... but how do I determine brass consistency prior to prep work? Weigh it? mic it somewhere?
Thanks for all the helpful info (everyone)!
P.S., as a previous poster asked - 0.5 moa is definitely possible with an AR, but for me it's simply an arbitrary precision goal so that I don't have to think about the gun/ammo variables when shooting at longer ranges. I want to concentrate on learning proper technique & reading the wind, & I don't want to be able to blame my equipment!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Problem 1 (random brass) and problem 2 (different bullets) are stated above. You will not get top accuracy using mixed brass with different head stamps and different bullets. Pick one bullet and run with it. Your POI will most likely change. Pick the brass to use by either the most you have of 1 brand or the best brand you have.
IMO, the first top factor would be your case prep. The cases must be the same from one to the next. Mainly concentrate on the neck of the case. The Lee stuff is inexpensive, but should work just fine for you.
I have seen an AR10-T shoot tight groups (sub .5 MOA) like a bolt gun. You must also know how to drive an AR-10 and drive it well. </div></div>
I should have clarified - I've loaded & tested multiple batches of A-Maxs (~200 rnds) then switched to SMKs to see if there would be any improvement. I haven't tested enough to know if my gun likes the SMKs better. I will definitely pay more attention to the brass. I've noticed that some of the Lake City brass I have responds/feels different in my press (like it's slightly thicker), but the head stamps are identical. I guess this would be a mfr lot issue... but how do I determine brass consistency prior to prep work? Weigh it? mic it somewhere?
Thanks for all the helpful info (everyone)!
P.S., as a previous poster asked - 0.5 moa is definitely possible with an AR, but for me it's simply an arbitrary precision goal so that I don't have to think about the gun/ammo variables when shooting at longer ranges. I want to concentrate on learning proper technique & reading the wind, & I don't want to be able to blame my equipment!
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
I think, besides anything to do with the rifle itself
Consistency in both your shooting form, and reloading are important factors in precision.
If you cant use the gun in a consistent manner your groups wont be tight. So learning the very basics of shooting is a must if you have overlooked that crucial step.
When it comes to reloading consistency also plays a major factor.
Consistent brass improves accuracy.
Consistent powder charges improves accuracy
Consistent seating depth improves accuracy
Consistent meplats improve accuracy
Consistent projectile weights improve accuracy
Consistent concentricity impr.... i think you get the point
If you have all sorts of random brass to be reloaded, first of all, get a scale and weigh the brass and sort it between lots. Trim them all to the same length. Check the insides of the cases to ultimately make sure they all hold the same volume.
If you have random lots of brass that have been grouped together to form like groups, and you shoot those groups together at the range... the groups themselves might be different but within the same group you would think accuracy would at least be alike.
If your 100% sure that your shooting form is correct and that your reloading components are consistently the same, and loaded to the same specs then perhaps something about the rifle is having a negative impact on precision.
Hope it helps buddy
I think, besides anything to do with the rifle itself
Consistency in both your shooting form, and reloading are important factors in precision.
If you cant use the gun in a consistent manner your groups wont be tight. So learning the very basics of shooting is a must if you have overlooked that crucial step.
When it comes to reloading consistency also plays a major factor.
Consistent brass improves accuracy.
Consistent powder charges improves accuracy
Consistent seating depth improves accuracy
Consistent meplats improve accuracy
Consistent projectile weights improve accuracy
Consistent concentricity impr.... i think you get the point
If you have all sorts of random brass to be reloaded, first of all, get a scale and weigh the brass and sort it between lots. Trim them all to the same length. Check the insides of the cases to ultimately make sure they all hold the same volume.
If you have random lots of brass that have been grouped together to form like groups, and you shoot those groups together at the range... the groups themselves might be different but within the same group you would think accuracy would at least be alike.
If your 100% sure that your shooting form is correct and that your reloading components are consistently the same, and loaded to the same specs then perhaps something about the rifle is having a negative impact on precision.
Hope it helps buddy
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
I think that in addition to charge weight uniformity; regulating bullet jump and neck tension, and flash hole reaming will yield the most benefits. I also believe there are several other steps that can be beneficial, but for my own purposes, there's a diminishing returns issue.
Greg
I think that in addition to charge weight uniformity; regulating bullet jump and neck tension, and flash hole reaming will yield the most benefits. I also believe there are several other steps that can be beneficial, but for my own purposes, there's a diminishing returns issue.
Greg
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
I tend to think of accurate shooting as a chain of events. The weakest element will reduce accuracy even if all the others could deliver more.
Shooter+equipment+ammunition
Consistency (but you can be consistently bad as well as consistently good)
For reloading it is about consistent processes and good quality components and appropriate kit.
The problem for many reloaders is that they do the same thing but don't know if they get the same result so can't track down inconsistencies. At some point it is necessary to introduce quality control into the processes and start measuring results. Then it is possible to work out what delivers consistent results and change processes that don't. Once you have got processes that work you can just to random sampling to ensure something hasn't gone wrong.
You can also entertain yourself by measuring 'premium' ammo.
When I started doing all of this my ammo got miles better and many fliers were identified as 'out of spec' ammo.
Beware - you can mess about with this forever chasing accuracy. This is only one component of the system and there will be diminishing returns. So at some point give up trying to improve and go look for better results elsewhere
Andy
I tend to think of accurate shooting as a chain of events. The weakest element will reduce accuracy even if all the others could deliver more.
Shooter+equipment+ammunition
Consistency (but you can be consistently bad as well as consistently good)
For reloading it is about consistent processes and good quality components and appropriate kit.
The problem for many reloaders is that they do the same thing but don't know if they get the same result so can't track down inconsistencies. At some point it is necessary to introduce quality control into the processes and start measuring results. Then it is possible to work out what delivers consistent results and change processes that don't. Once you have got processes that work you can just to random sampling to ensure something hasn't gone wrong.
You can also entertain yourself by measuring 'premium' ammo.
When I started doing all of this my ammo got miles better and many fliers were identified as 'out of spec' ammo.
Beware - you can mess about with this forever chasing accuracy. This is only one component of the system and there will be diminishing returns. So at some point give up trying to improve and go look for better results elsewhere
Andy
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
Once you get you load that groups best, see posts above, thenpractice you technique of shooting. cheek weld, trigger control, follow though, sight alignment....the list goes on.
Practice, with paying attention to what you are doing, and practice some more. If you can call a shot as a bad one, it is not a bad shot. Learn from it. Sounds like your rifle is a 1/2 moa rifle...just be consistant.
Once you get you load that groups best, see posts above, thenpractice you technique of shooting. cheek weld, trigger control, follow though, sight alignment....the list goes on.
Practice, with paying attention to what you are doing, and practice some more. If you can call a shot as a bad one, it is not a bad shot. Learn from it. Sounds like your rifle is a 1/2 moa rifle...just be consistant.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
With a 308 gas gun it is almost always the nut behind the buttplate.
With a 308 gas gun it is almost always the nut behind the buttplate.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a 308 gas gun it is almost always the nut behind the buttplate.</div></div>
Wade, GET TO WORK! Quit playing on the internet!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With a 308 gas gun it is almost always the nut behind the buttplate.</div></div>
Wade, GET TO WORK! Quit playing on the internet!
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
Others have said it, but I'll reinforce:
Consistency.
Vary anything and it'll kill you. Bad barrels and such are problems, for sure, but being able to reproduce a POA-to-POI alignment (meaning, "being accurate") requires consistent elements, especially from the shooter. The challenge then, is defining "how consistent" is consistent enough
You can pick components that are known for good consistency (e.g., good brass, good bullets, sharp high-mag scope for reliable alignment) but your assembly of ammo matters big time: powder charge consistency, seating depth and concentricity. In the end, though, the shooter makes or breaks it: pull straight back on stock, stable cheek weld, smooth trigger pull, follow through... I have only recently started to try to narrow down "perfect" hold, weld, etc...
Others have said it, but I'll reinforce:
Consistency.
Vary anything and it'll kill you. Bad barrels and such are problems, for sure, but being able to reproduce a POA-to-POI alignment (meaning, "being accurate") requires consistent elements, especially from the shooter. The challenge then, is defining "how consistent" is consistent enough
You can pick components that are known for good consistency (e.g., good brass, good bullets, sharp high-mag scope for reliable alignment) but your assembly of ammo matters big time: powder charge consistency, seating depth and concentricity. In the end, though, the shooter makes or breaks it: pull straight back on stock, stable cheek weld, smooth trigger pull, follow through... I have only recently started to try to narrow down "perfect" hold, weld, etc...
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tend to think of accurate shooting as a chain of events. The weakest element will reduce accuracy even if all the others could deliver more.
Shooter+equipment+ammunition
Consistency (but you can be consistently bad as well as consistently good)
For reloading it is about consistent processes and good quality components and appropriate kit.
The problem for many reloaders is that they do the same thing but don't know if they get the same result so can't track down inconsistencies. At some point it is necessary to introduce quality control into the processes and start measuring results. Then it is possible to work out what delivers consistent results and change processes that don't. Once you have got processes that work you can just to random sampling to ensure something hasn't gone wrong.
You can also entertain yourself by measuring 'premium' ammo.
When I started doing all of this my ammo got miles better and many fliers were identified as 'out of spec' ammo.
Beware - you can mess about with this forever chasing accuracy. This is only one component of the system and there will be diminishing returns. So at some point give up trying to improve and go look for better results elsewhere
Andy
</div></div> good post
a good crown on rifle bbl helps too
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tend to think of accurate shooting as a chain of events. The weakest element will reduce accuracy even if all the others could deliver more.
Shooter+equipment+ammunition
Consistency (but you can be consistently bad as well as consistently good)
For reloading it is about consistent processes and good quality components and appropriate kit.
The problem for many reloaders is that they do the same thing but don't know if they get the same result so can't track down inconsistencies. At some point it is necessary to introduce quality control into the processes and start measuring results. Then it is possible to work out what delivers consistent results and change processes that don't. Once you have got processes that work you can just to random sampling to ensure something hasn't gone wrong.
You can also entertain yourself by measuring 'premium' ammo.
When I started doing all of this my ammo got miles better and many fliers were identified as 'out of spec' ammo.
Beware - you can mess about with this forever chasing accuracy. This is only one component of the system and there will be diminishing returns. So at some point give up trying to improve and go look for better results elsewhere
Andy
</div></div> good post
a good crown on rifle bbl helps too
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
As per the excellent Dec. '08 "Handloader" magazine article (written by Gary D. Sciuchetti)...( in his rifle) given the variety of components he tested, the differences between all the "primers", "brass cases", "bullets" are shown below......AND when I say ALL ...that means he tested 'em all.
A brief summary; all measurments in inches
Powder charge difference = .75
primers = .3125
brass case = .25
bullets (all 168/165) = up to 2 inches
solid copper bullet
seating depth = up to 3 inches
Do yourself a favor and find a copy of this article, most throughly written and tested article I've ever read. He tests ALL the available; 165/168 gr bullets (32 different ones), primers (12 different), cases (10 different)(virgin and then once fired, heck he even fired them to case failure)varget powder charge weight, I could go on but...
As per the excellent Dec. '08 "Handloader" magazine article (written by Gary D. Sciuchetti)...( in his rifle) given the variety of components he tested, the differences between all the "primers", "brass cases", "bullets" are shown below......AND when I say ALL ...that means he tested 'em all.
A brief summary; all measurments in inches
Powder charge difference = .75
primers = .3125
brass case = .25
bullets (all 168/165) = up to 2 inches
solid copper bullet
seating depth = up to 3 inches
Do yourself a favor and find a copy of this article, most throughly written and tested article I've ever read. He tests ALL the available; 165/168 gr bullets (32 different ones), primers (12 different), cases (10 different)(virgin and then once fired, heck he even fired them to case failure)varget powder charge weight, I could go on but...
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfoosh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As per the excellent Dec. '08 "Handloader" magazine article (written by Gary D. Sciuchetti)...( in his rifle) given the variety of components he tested, the differences between all the "primers", "brass cases", "bullets" are shown below......AND when I say ALL ...that means he tested 'em all.
A brief summary; all measurments in inches
Powder charge difference = .75
primers = .3125
brass case = .25
bullets (all 168/165) = up to 2 inches
solid copper bullet
seating depth = up to 3 inches
Do yourself a favor and find a copy of this article, most throughly written and tested article I've ever read. He tests ALL the available; 165/168 gr bullets (32 different ones), primers (12 different), cases (10 different)(virgin and then once fired, heck he even fired them to case failure)varget powder charge weight, I could go on but...
</div></div>
Thanks!!! That's exactly the kind of data I was looking for! I'll see if I can find a copy of the article.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfoosh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As per the excellent Dec. '08 "Handloader" magazine article (written by Gary D. Sciuchetti)...( in his rifle) given the variety of components he tested, the differences between all the "primers", "brass cases", "bullets" are shown below......AND when I say ALL ...that means he tested 'em all.
A brief summary; all measurments in inches
Powder charge difference = .75
primers = .3125
brass case = .25
bullets (all 168/165) = up to 2 inches
solid copper bullet
seating depth = up to 3 inches
Do yourself a favor and find a copy of this article, most throughly written and tested article I've ever read. He tests ALL the available; 165/168 gr bullets (32 different ones), primers (12 different), cases (10 different)(virgin and then once fired, heck he even fired them to case failure)varget powder charge weight, I could go on but...
</div></div>
Thanks!!! That's exactly the kind of data I was looking for! I'll see if I can find a copy of the article.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
I'll have to go back and re-read that one. I know I have it. I never throw away decent magazines.
I'll have to go back and re-read that one. I know I have it. I never throw away decent magazines.
Re: What has the most effect on precision?
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/listing.cfm?subcategoryid=225
http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/listing.cfm?subcategoryid=225
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