Night Vision What illuminator is close to the performance of a PEQ-15?

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Tonight I got to play with a few toys! Very good ones...

I went to a night shoot with the great guys at badlands tactical. First off ill say those guys are on top of their game. I watched them spot for a few guys and it was spot on calls every time. Anyhow they had some guys come out with a pvs 22 and several 14's and 7's. the 22 was mounted in front of a leupy 2-8 I believe (it was dark) I had my ghetto set up,14 mounted behind my 5-25x56 S&B. I was making hits out to 600 and the guy with the 22 was also with his sr-15. When we were talking I asked to look through his 22. He was using a PEQ-15 laser illuminator to help light it up. I was using his illumination also. At 1000 yards through his pvs-22 I could have made a hit but it wasn't as good of a picture as I had expected, even with the illuminator on high focussed as tight as it would go. I know the scope was killing it im just saying.I had him light the target up for me and I looked at the 1000yrd target with my 14 behind the S&B and it blew me away!!!! I could go all the way up to 20x and it was still as clear as day! I made about 5-8 consistent hits on a man sized target with it and didnt miss once. I could actually see the target with so much sharpness that I could have ranged with my reticle. I had no idea this was possible!

Now on to the business.... Where and what illuminator can I get to compare to the PEQ 15? Will the dbal-d2 compare? It would need a very tight focus to reach that far but I sure hope there's one out there.

Thanks guys!
Jay

 

[SkyPup]

LDI SPIR or DBAL-D2.

 

[TheGerman]

You can find them from time to time on gunbroker, or the AN/PEQ2A will work as well.

If you don't trust getting them that way, I was also told the DBAL is your best bet.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

The dbal looks great but it seems like it doesn't focus in tight enough to make a shot like I was able to make last night. I found a real deal PEQ 15 on eBay but I'm scared of that.... How could I tell if it is for sure the real thing? Ill check gunbroker and see too. The high ir laser is useless for me but I guess it would be cool to show off! Lol

 

[TestnDoc]

Dbal A2

 

[dumbbell]

my experience with the dbal d2 is you, your gun, or your actual night vision tube will limit you long before the dbal will. The illumination is unreal on mine, and will focus down to ?degrees. Not sure the exact focus, but its tight enough to light up hair on a hog at God knows how far. My pvs14 and 3x magnifier limit me, but not the dbal. Not by a long shot.

 

[softcock]

You can find them from time to time on gunbroker, or the AN/PEQ2A will work as well.

If you don't trust getting them that way, I was also told the DBAL is your best bet.

-
same here, I have had a few & the 2A's & are really work well . they have really treated me good hunting & you should be able to get one in the 1-K to 1300-$ for sure .
They were the predecessor to the 15's & has a pretty tight-focus beam, & on high-power will get you out there for illumination . but only drawback is they are the older/longer body, so it will eatup more space .

 

[mikeltee]

That dude on eBay selling them has hundreds of good feedback from people that bought the peq-15 from him. For $420, what do you got to lose? (Uhh.... $420 I suppose) Then let us know if it behaves the same as the legit one you just tried. If its good to go, we will all buy one and regard you as our hero!

Plus ill forgive you for snaking that Flir ps-32 from underneath me. lol

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

That dude on eBay selling them has hundreds of good feedback from people that bought the peq-15 from him. For $420, what do you got to lose? (Uhh.... $420 I suppose) Then let us know if it behaves the same as the legit one you just tried. If its good to go, we will all buy one and regard you as our hero!

Plus ill forgive you for snaking that Flir ps-32 from underneath me. lol

That was you!? Haha I'm gonna try and go pick it up from him tomorrow.

The one on eBay that I saw is far more than $400. The guy that sells them for 400ish sells them for the realistic air soft guys from what I understand. There's a PEQ 15 on there right now that's painted multi cam and is used. The bid is around $700 and the reserve isn't met. I have to have one of these because it really blew me away with the ability to make hits at 1000yrds with a pvs14! No moon and cloudy at that!

 

[mikeltee]

Yep that was me but I thank you because I just picked one up for $1550! I am just in awe that you were making 1000yd hits on 20x with a freakin pvs-14. What tube do you have? I gotta have both items!

 

[IR-V]

Tonight I got to play with a few toys! Very good ones...

Now on to the business.... Where and what illuminator can I get to compare to the PEQ 15? Will the dbal-d2 compare? It would need a very tight focus to reach that far but I sure hope there's one out there.

Thanks guys!
Jay

The LDI DBAL D2 or SPIR, both rated at 600 mW for their IR LED illuminators, will easily match the performance of the PEQ-15 IR laser diode illuminator to around 650 yards. For greater distances, such as the 1000 yards you describe, the IR laser diodes have better coherence in their outputs than IR LED illuminators.

The IR laser diode illuminator on the PEQ-15 (ATPIAL) is nominally rated at 45 mW. The PEQ-15A (DBAL-A2, not to be confused with DBAL-D2) is comparable at 35 mW on its adjustable focus IR laser diode illuminator, as is the older PEQ-2 (TPIAL) rated at 50 mW. Newer DBAL military / LE laser aimer-illuminators have been boosted to 50 mW.

As many know, the DHS ICE has been aggressively monitoring sales and purchases of military / LE, IR laser diode aimer-illuminators, such as the PEQ-15, PEQ-15A, PEQ-2, PEQ-6, PEQ-14, ATILLA, IZLID, MPLI, etc., on web forums and auction sites such as eBay. There's been a major indictment, arrest, or conviction for illicit activity pertaining to these every 2-3 months for the past 2 years. Do a web search on Slusser, Kumstar, and / or Kelerchian to see the most recent prosecutorial activity. A lot of the current-issue military / LE IR laser aimer-illuminators on eBay, especially the PEQ-18s, are from the Slusser / Kumstar / Kelerchian "incident" and recent thefts from military bases, such as the Ft. Lewis-McChord heists. Now that the major players have all been indicted, arrested, or convicted, you can be certain that the DHS, military CIDs, FBI, and FDA are all working together to round-up and recover all the stolen and illegally procured gear, and to identify the "laundering" channels. If you are caught buying illicit IR laser equipment, your greatest penalty will most likely be forfeit your item with no compensation. The alternative in lieu of voluntary forfeiture is typically prosecution for knowingly receiving stolen property. Sellers and re-sellers are the ones that get busted the hardest, and you can be certain that LE will scrutinize the e-mail accounts and computer records of every seller they bust to find the buyers and resellers. All the stuff on eBay that has missing labels; replaced labels; serial numbers and OEM markings scraped off with Dremel, etc.; OEM markings / labels / serial numbers painted over with camo paint; military issue carry cases, such as the MOLLE capable cases; torn off lens covers and desert sand in all the nooks and crevices; and short duration, web auction posts or posted under obscure web-auction titles -- are all suspicious equipment. Also, the hotter the gear, the lower the minimum bids or buy-it-now pricing. Caveat Emptor!

That said, there are some early, military-grade, IR laser designator-illuminators that either pre-date the Federal prohibitions on civilian sale or which have entered the civilian market through somewhat legitimate channels that LE investigators are less interested in investigating or prosecuting. The best of these are the Ground Commander Pointer (GCP) modules, which come with single laser diodes that can be adjusted on their lens angle from pencil beam (for weapons aiming and designation functions) to wide-angle illumination up to 30-degrees -- and with max, variable outputs at 50 mW, 100 mW and 175 mW. The GCPs are surprisingly compact, versatile, and powerful, with the 100 mW and 175 mW models massively outperforming the PEQ-15/15A on coherent illumination at distance and on field of view coverage for close-in work. Caution, however, as not all GCPs are "pre-ban" and there are many that are heisted from gov't inventories or that were illegally intercepted from gov't contracts.

IR-V

 

[Strykervet]

Ft. Lewis got back 95% or more of the shit from the Ft. Lewis heist. They didn't say what they were still missing, and granted, 5% of some odd $600,000 thousand dollars is still somewhere around $30,000 depending on the actual total. If that's all PEQ's, then yeah, there could be quite a few out there.

Yeah, PEQ-2A's and military stuff is reported by eBay to the feds. How do I know? Tried to sell an interceptor vest and they asked for a receipt. Well, fuck. I don't usually save receipts when I buy stuff from the surplus store I use (they've known me for over 10 years and the receipts only show date and cost anyway) or Craigslist. It was the new armor at the time and it was supposed to be accountable, but all that shit is, and if the soldier loses it he has to pay for it, thus making it his. And if you live outside an infantry post, CL ALWAYS has armor and infantry gear for sale when guys ETS.

So what happened is I just pulled the ad (or rather, had it pulled FOR me) and they said they'd turn it over to the feds to be investigated. No contact by feds, no BS, years later. Bought a PEQ once, no BS, no nothing. And if shit happens, usually the worst to happen to you is that they take your shit (if buyer or seller, unless you have a business doing this sort of thing). They're more interested in finding out if it's stolen and then fixing the leak rather than screwing with you for buying an item sight unseen. But with eBay's policy on this, it's a lot harder for stolen mil gear to get on there now vs. a couple years ago. Which is a good thing. Bad thing is they don't seem to give a shit if it's counterfeit but billed as the real deal, particularly if you have a "store" or whatever they call it.

You HAVE to beware of fakes. It is way easy to fake some of these, and the PEQ-15 seems to have more fakes than any other.

You NEED to know EXACTLY what those things look like to the detail, cross reference the pictures online (to make sure those are HIS pictures) and maybe ask him to send you a cell phone picture of the laser and/or illum. aimed at the camera. It won't take a picture of the laser or the beam all that well, but it will detect if it is putting out IR or not.

In addition to PEQ's, what would make shit so much nicer is if our government wasn't so damn secret on just every fucking thing it does. For instance, if you are planning on buying a used PEQ, which is perfectly legal for you to do so, good luck trying to get the FBI agents responsible for recovery to tell you if the SN on the one you're interested in is stolen or not. They'll be glad to take down the info and run the number, likely while you're on the phone, but they won't tell you if it is or not (maybe they want the guy to send it to you so they can get the seller/theif if there is one?). In fact, good luck trying to get the FBI to anything for Joe Public (I tried to turn over a Nigerian scam ring, a big one, and they could give a shit less because it wasn't $200,000+ lost --didn't lose anything-- but I did have all their info and written correspondence, including threats against my life, and only FedEx was interested in shutting down their 300 accounts --sure they stole a lot more than $200,000+ through 300 FedEx accounts alone). Seems FBI only works for the 1% or less.

 

[Strykervet]

2nd post so this didn't get lost or just skipped, actually regarding qualities of these items:

There isn't a class 1 illuminator that does what you want. They don't make 'em. The illum. in the PEQ's actually use a laser --they really have two lasers inside. One is tightly collimated light, a very small MOA light, the aiming laser, the other less so, more dispersed and wider MOA, and that makes for a very long range IR illum. I guess you've seen 'em by now, they work a lot like spot lights, more powerful than KC Daylighter's. You won't get that from the DBAL I'm sure; look at TNVC's specs. It uses an LED or CREE lamp. Same thing Surefire IR lights use. They're IR/white grip light (I just upgraded the lamp after the last bulb died and it was such a batt. hog) is good for what, about 75m? I haven't used it much yet to be honest, but I do know it isn't gonna be worth shit out to 200 or past.

Now as far as illumination goes, minus the laser, there is ONE civilian device that does stack up that I'm aware of. Not sure of the tech they use, but it is touted as being able to illuminate .5 mile. I could be wrong, if I am someone correct me, but it would be TNVC's Torch or Torch Pro? Probably best bang for buck if you just want illumination. Check 'em out. TNVC is a good place to deal with too, so if nothing else, call 'em and talk to someone. Most of those guys are ex-mil. or even current to some degree, and they stay on top of new shit. They can probably help you get exactly what you need more than any internet forum with just one call.

There is one other option to a PEQ-15, look up Newcon Optik. I've heard less than satisfactory reviews of their laser years ago, but have been told they've done a lot to 'em since then. For the price, they've got to be decent. Were I to get one, I'd make sure I had a good return period so I could check it out with great scrutiny. They are true class 3 laser devices, one similar to PAC-4C (laser only) one similar to PEQ-2A (laser and illuminator) and one similar to PEQ-15 (laser, illuminator and visible laser, red I think). Besides a few neg. reviews a long time ago (since they've changed) there isn't much info on these out there. I may try one out one day, but I'll make sure to get it in a way that I can return it if it isn't satisfactory. Also bear in mind that though US military doesn't use Newcon Optik lasers, they do use some of their $27,000 laser rangefinders. And they do say the lasers are now built to "military specs" so take that for what it's worth. Their 2 IR units that have laser and illum. have specs more along the lines of a PEQ-2A than anything. Real close, if memory serves.

They have, or did have, a class 4 aiming laser at one point too. That's instant blindness if you look at it, helluva non-lethal semi-stealth tool in combat if you ask me. No BS, civilians can buy 'em. I THINK what makes 'em legal or illegal in US (or, rather, "restricted") class 3 or higher, is whether they've been made in US and/or they've been given a military designation. Could be wrong though, but other than that and the design of the item, they are basically PEQ's for better or worse.

That's my experience and $.02, hope it helps.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Yep that was me but I thank you because I just picked one up for $1550! I am just in awe that you were making 1000yd hits on 20x with a freakin pvs-14. What tube do you have? I gotta have both items!

Gah! How in the heck did you find one for that price!? Lucky....

Yea I'm amazed too. I was sitting there looking through the scope thinking (there's no way I'm seeing this). I have to find a illuminator that will equal the performance of the PEQ 15. I did meet several FBI officers the other night along with several state officers so who knows, maybe I can get them to keep an eye out for one for sale legally.

Seriously if I had this illuminator I don't need a $10,000 pvs 22!

 

[SkyPup]

Both go an easy 1 kilometer.


10,400Mw OSRAM IR

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

The spir looks a lot like the dbal. The osram looks like a visible spot light! Lol

Sky pup you use a pvs 14 on a day scope too, do you think you could make a 1000yrd shot with those illuminators? I know I could with a pvs22 in front of my S&B but if I can do it with a $1500 illuminator why buy the 22 for nearly $10000!?

 

[SkyPup]

The SPIR and DBAL-D2 are pretty much the same IR Illuminator and very precise and powerful.

The other OSRAM IR flashlight is for remote US Air Force helicopter landings when the pilots are using NV gear, it lights up an entire football stadium like daylight.

I have not made a shot over 250 yards at night myself

 

[Altnews]

Take a look at the Luna Optics Extended Range IR Illuminator. It's really good.

 

[TheGerman]

How are you guys using a PVS14 on your rifles? I see the weapon mount works for the AR platforms, but I have no space behind my optic on my bolt guns for it.

 

[mikeltee]

If your scope offers generous eye relief, you can move it forward a few notches to make room for the mount. I have also seen them attached directly to the scope's eyepiece as well. Personally Id run it off a helmet like its designed to do. I wouldn't see much use for it mounted on a weapon unless you are just planning to go somewhere and shoot stationary at a target in the dark for shits and gigs.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

The LDI DBAL D2 or SPIR, both rated at 600 mW for their IR LED illuminators, will easily match the performance of the PEQ-15 IR laser diode illuminator to around 650 yards. For greater distances, such as the 1000 yards you describe, the IR laser diodes have better coherence in their outputs than IR LED illuminators.

The IR laser diode illuminator on the PEQ-15 (ATPIAL) is nominally rated at 45 mW. The PEQ-15A (DBAL-A2, not to be confused with DBAL-D2) is comparable at 35 mW on its adjustable focus IR laser diode illuminator, as is the older PEQ-2 (TPIAL) rated at 50 mW. Newer DBAL military / LE laser aimer-illuminators have been boosted to 50 mW.

As many know, the DHS ICE has been aggressively monitoring sales and purchases of military / LE, IR laser diode aimer-illuminators, such as the PEQ-15, PEQ-15A, PEQ-2, PEQ-6, PEQ-14, ATILLA, IZLID, MPLI, etc., on web forums and auction sites such as eBay. There's been a major indictment, arrest, or conviction for illicit activity pertaining to these every 2-3 months for the past 2 years. Do a web search on Slusser, Kumstar, and / or Kelerchian to see the most recent prosecutorial activity. A lot of the current-issue military / LE IR laser aimer-illuminators on eBay, especially the PEQ-18s, are from the Slusser / Kumstar / Kelerchian "incident" and recent thefts from military bases, such as the Ft. Lewis-McChord heists. Now that the major players have all been indicted, arrested, or convicted, you can be certain that the DHS, military CIDs, FBI, and FDA are all working together to round-up and recover all the stolen and illegally procured gear, and to identify the "laundering" channels. If you are caught buying illicit IR laser equipment, your greatest penalty will most likely be forfeit your item with no compensation. The alternative in lieu of voluntary forfeiture is typically prosecution for knowingly receiving stolen property. Sellers and re-sellers are the ones that get busted the hardest, and you can be certain that LE will scrutinize the e-mail accounts and computer records of every seller they bust to find the buyers and resellers. All the stuff on eBay that has missing labels; replaced labels; serial numbers and OEM markings scraped off with Dremel, etc.; OEM markings / labels / serial numbers painted over with camo paint; military issue carry cases, such as the MOLLE capable cases; torn off lens covers and desert sand in all the nooks and crevices; and short duration, web auction posts or posted under obscure web-auction titles -- are all suspicious equipment. Also, the hotter the gear, the lower the minimum bids or buy-it-now pricing. Caveat Emptor!

That said, there are some early, military-grade, IR laser designator-illuminators that either pre-date the Federal prohibitions on civilian sale or which have entered the civilian market through somewhat legitimate channels that LE investigators are less interested in investigating or prosecuting. The best of these are the Ground Commander Pointer (GCP) modules, which come with single laser diodes that can be adjusted on their lens angle from pencil beam (for weapons aiming and designation functions) to wide-angle illumination up to 30-degrees -- and with max, variable outputs at 50 mW, 100 mW and 175 mW. The GCPs are surprisingly compact, versatile, and powerful, with the 100 mW and 175 mW models massively outperforming the PEQ-15/15A on coherent illumination at distance and on field of view coverage for close-in work. Caution, however, as not all GCPs are "pre-ban" and there are many that are heisted from gov't inventories or that were illegally intercepted from gov't contracts.

IR-V

Good post as always IR-V. Said this for years with the select few saying we were attempting to squash competition etc. 95% of ALL mil lasers for sale on the open market are either stolen or were obtained illegally in the first place. The ONLY ones that were let-go (not really legally, but due to ignorance), was the DBAL-A2's several years back from a D type agency. A gun dealer purchased the whole stock and was peddling them to dealers at a huge mark up. A few folks who originally let these go lost their jobs on this one with many of the A2 going down after that with the end result of an expensive end of the gun paperweight. Some even tried to send these back in for repair and they could never be returned due to regulation.

We've had countless phone calls over the years with folks having this and that confiscated by Flea-Bay deals, and other forums. It's just not worth it with all the Class 1 units performing quite well. 99% of time, a 50mW IR laser is never needed for typical hog hunting and other type activities due to the severe bloom these units cause with NODS at the typical hunting ranges most use.

There are more crack-downs coming on other units as well advertising this or claiming their units are Class 1 units, when actually they are a Class 3B unit that will get somebody hurt very badly one day because the end user THINKS the said unit is "Eye-Safe". Attorney's are going to be getting rich if and when this happens. Regardless, Class 1 or not, no one should ever look into a said device no matter what the advertised power rating.

Vic

Edit, we can tell all that there are several new and exciting Class 1 units coming out so stay tuned....

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

There's the rifle scope combo I use. Except I have a AAC cyclone on it when I'm using it. Sorry for the crappy picture that's the only one I have right now.

 

[TheGerman]

There's the rifle scope combo I use. Except I have a AAC cyclone on it when I'm using it. Sorry for the crappy picture that's the only one I have right now.

With that setup, how far out can you shoot at night? And what is it?

Curious about this as I wouldn't do it with my M24 but would try it with my MK12 as I have QD mounts and plenty of rail space to move the optic forward.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

With that very setup I have shot 750yrds with a full moon and no illumination. The illuminator pictures isn't very good and it's only good for about 150-200yrds tops.

That's same rifle and pvs14 setup is the one I used to shoot 1000yrds about 8 times the other night with no misses on a man size target! But I couldn't have done it without the PEQ 15.... It's a m24 contour 22" barrel surgeon .308 with a A-5 stock. Everyone always talks about the huge POI shift when using a pvs 14 on a day scope but I'm not sure I believe that... If it is a POI shift its not very much. If I can hit all 8 shots at 1000yrds on a man size target that's not much shift. I accept the accuracy loss! Lol heck I'm lucky to hit it 8 of 8 during the day!

 

[TheGerman]

With that very setup I have shot 750yrds with a full moon and no illumination. The illuminator pictures isn't very good and it's only good for about 150-200yrds tops.

That's same rifle and pvs14 setup is the one I used to shoot 1000yrds about 8 times the other night with no misses on a man size target! But I couldn't have done it without the PEQ 15.... It's a m24 contour 22" barrel surgeon .308 with a A-5 stock. Everyone always talks about the huge POI shift when using a pvs 14 on a day scope but I'm not sure I believe that... If it is a POI shift its not very much. If I can hit all 8 shots at 1000yrds on a man size target that's not much shift. I accept the accuracy loss! Lol heck I'm lucky to hit it 8 of 8 during the day!

May have to try that. With the 77gr round I'm not going out THAT far.

What hardware are you using to attach it? Is it simply a mount that attaches onto the occular, or whats the whole setup?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

May have to try that. With the 77gr round I'm not going out THAT far.

What hardware are you using to attach it? Is it simply a mount that attaches onto the occular, or whats the whole setup?

looks like one of the original pvs-14 scope adapters from tnvc that they did away with.

 

[Surgeon_Shooter]

Yep it's the adapter from TNVC. Works like a charm. The pvs14 I use is a ITT night enforcer with the autogated pinnacle.

 

[cruzie27]

we can tell all that there are several new and exciting Class 1 units coming out so stay tuned....

****!,.. better than a DBAL D2? I finally just got one and its waiting for me to get back Stateside :^(