What is a reasonable accuracy expectation?

[Tucker301]

@BLKGNMN -
Welcome to the site.

I got your hurt feelings report and have reviewed it.

If you're going to make accuracy claims it's best to be able to back them up with documentation.
Also, and I recognize that you're new here, so it's no hard feelings, but groups are five shots.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Man, I hate making that 5th shot into a real nice group.
About as bad as getting 9 and blowing it with #10.
I think we all ought to post 4 and 9 shot groups

 

[Triple D]

That's ok. I'm just saying that with this semi-auto I can count on a very tight group , that I can expect to be consistent. He was asking and I answered the question. This rifle may be exceptional , and it is my go to if SHTF for out to 600 yds. My M4's by comparison can't hold a candle to my Colt H-BAR competition match. It only has to serve my purpose , and I'm very pleased to have a good shooting rifle.

It doesn’t matter if the gun is quality, a quality gun won’t make 1.5-3moa Ammo drive tacks.

This dude is posting BS, especially about it being the expectation. It’s possible that one day the stars aligned, but expecting that time and time again is nothing short of absurd.

 

[ROT]

After some frustration and lots of load development I settled with about 1/2 moa with my MK12 clone. It’s a CLE Douglas

Ruger Mini 14, NORINCO elcheapo ammo, 200 meters, It happened; 2 rounds disapeared I have no clue where they went;
I could not repeat the performance after 4 weeks

 

[Cerwinski]

Most people can’t shoot a gas gun accurately. So even if you have one that can shoot below 1 moa, most can’t shoot it that well.

I have experience with JP, LMT, Seekins, and Gap. All great guns.

1moa at 100 is a good accurate gun and good for Gas Gun PRS.

With reloads You can get below 1/2 moa easily.

OK as a new member here I am genuinely interested in this. I have a Criterion-barreled 6.5 Grendel that I am having a little trouble getting good groups with. I have an FN PSA CHF AR that I find simple to get sub MOA groups with (using handloads). As soon as I went to the larger caliber all I thought I knew went out the window. What is it about gas guns that make them different? My technique is fairly solid as far as I can tell. Any tips appreciated!

 

[Billiam1211]

OK as a new member here I am genuinely interested in this. I have a Criterion-barreled 6.5 Grendel that I am having a little trouble getting good groups with. I have an FN PSA CHF AR that I find simple to get sub MOA groups with (using handloads). As soon as I went to the larger caliber all I thought I knew went out the window. What is it about gas guns that make them different? My technique is fairly solid as far as I can tell. Any tips appreciated!

The 3 things that helped me improve accuracy with my gas gun were:
-Trigger finger follow through (exaggerate how long you hold the trigger back by 2 or 3 seconds)
-Much firmer strong hand grip.
-Stock placement in the shoulder so that recoil wouldn't drive me off target.

I was getting away with a lot of mistakes on my bolt action rifles, that my 308 gas gun would exploit. From what other guys have explained to me, gas guns have much more active recoil impulses that exploit the shooters follow through as the bolt cycles.

 

[Saf3sh00t3r]

OK as a new member here I am genuinely interested in this. I have a Criterion-barreled 6.5 Grendel that I am having a little trouble getting good groups with. I have an FN PSA CHF AR that I find simple to get sub MOA groups with (using handloads). As soon as I went to the larger caliber all I thought I knew went out the window. What is it about gas guns that make them different? My technique is fairly solid as far as I can tell. Any tips appreciated!

You have to man handle the rifle while keeping Trigger control. So it’s a combination of recoil mitigation due to the multiple impulses of the gun.



Here is a video that can give you an idea what to work on.

 

[The King]

I have a lot of experience in gas guns.

I was a machinist at a gun company, making gas guns. I did the engineering and design - not just running the CNC lathe’s and 5axis stuff.

I can tell you that where most people get gas guns wrong is in controlling the time between the sear breaking and the primer ignition.

It takes so much longer of a time for that hammer to make the endless journey to the firing pin that bad habits or compromised positions flat out result in misses and poor groups. A striker fired bolt gun has a lock time so short you can almost pull the trigger and then javelin throw the gun and still get a solid hit.

The hard hold technique works well for dealing with this poor lock time in a gas guns workflow - there are other ways but none as simple to teach and get results.

The second place people get jammed up is in the spring/buffer/bolt motion arena. Too fast and you can damage the round being fed or move the bullet in the case and too slow and your buffer may not strike the rear of the buffer tube.

This is made worse the more you exit the arena of the two design intent cartridges - 308 and 556. These days we have learned enough about 6.5 CM and 300 blackout to make good reliable working guns, but that is probably only in the last few years we really got it nailed down. +2 gas especially on 6.5.

Another poster said that the key areas are bolt/barrel/trigger and that is a pretty good place to start. As long as your optic mounting is good and your hand guard doesn’t touch the gas block you are generally GTG. One thing to watch is some mlok accessories will hit the gas block if mounted underneath.

The final thing I would leave you with is having a tight barrel to upper fit is worth it. If your extension is loose - do something about that for sure. Loctite on the barrel extension is good - but a steel shim is even better.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I thought I had a 1 MOA AR, but I was wrong.
Sold my Rest at the last match and had to shoot off a Chinese Bipod.
Didn't make 1 MOA

 

[Basher]

I thought I had a 1 MOA AR, but I was wrong.
Sold my Rest at the last match and had to shoot off a Chinese Bipod.
Didn't make 1 MOA

Looks like decent shooting to me overall at just over 1MOA if that’s a standard F-Class 600 yard target. A quality bipod (or sled, for you cheating F-Class guys! ) might have helped, but I wouldn’t be too disappointed with a gas gun that shot like that, at least for field use. I’d like better, but 1MOA is livable for the field, IMO.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Looks like decent shooting to me overall at just over 1MOA if that’s a standard F-Class 600 yard target. A quality bipod (or sled, for you cheating F-Class guys! ) might have helped, but I wouldn’t be too disappointed with a gas gun that shot like that, at least for field use. I’d like better, but 1MOA is livable for the field, IMO.

Its not a gas gun technically...

 

[Basher]

Its not a gas gun technically...

Ah, dang, I forgot he isn’t running a gas system on it. Doh!

Which would be more accurate, hand cycling every shot, or allowing a tuned gas/buffer system to do it, based on consistency? Or am I still living in the past with the idea that the first round from an AR will have a slightly different POI due to differences in cycling speeds/forces between doing it by hand and letting the rifle do the work?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Good question. I've shot a few times with the GB closed off, it certainly makes follow through and spotting shots easier with only having one quick recoil impulse. Can't recall if it grouped any tighter though.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Yup, those two darn fliers opened up that group (which was the best out of three 20 shot groups).

Cutting the gas off on a gas gun might show some improvement.
Having a tighter chamber, bumping cases less, no ejector load on the case, things that would cause problems with gas, might help a little.
The lock time and hammer torque of an AR will still be an issue over bolt guns.

Only used that cheapo bipod because it was the only thing I had after selling the Bald Eagle.
Good thing I brought that or it would have been a bed roll.
Plan on making another one like I made for the wife. (she has gas, I don't)
The PSB, "that's just Plain Stupid"

 

[jasewhitehead08]

This was done with a Warsport LVOA-C 14.5" barrel with 62gr

 

[The King]

Which 62 gr?

View attachment 7045099View attachment 7045101View attachment 7045100

This was done with a Warsport LVOA-C 14.5" barrel with 62gr

 

[jasewhitehead08]

Which 62 gr?

Magtech 62gr FMJ. I believe they were running around 3050fps.

 

[jasewhitehead08]

Which 62 gr?

zeroed with FGMM 69gr and had some magtechs laying around. Shot sunday and they surprised me

 

[Billiam1211]

Slightly tangent to the topic of acceptable accuracy from a gas gun.

I recently threw some DiamondHead flip up iron sights and a Trijicon MRO on a spare AR-15 I had laying around. I made some hand loads that will be going in my home defense bedside magazine that have 60gr Vmax with 25gr Varget. I was able to shoot 2-3 Inch groups at 100 yards and 3-5 inch groups at 200 yards.

What would you guys call acceptable accuracy for iron sights or a red dot?

 

[jasewhitehead08]

Slightly tangent to the topic of acceptable accuracy from a gas gun.

I recently threw some DiamondHead flip up iron sights and a Trijicon MRO on a spare AR-15 I had laying around. I made some hand loads that will be going in my home defense bedside magazine that have 60gr Vmax with 25gr Varget. I was able to shoot 2-3 Inch groups at 100 yards and 3-5 inch groups at 200 yards.

What would you guys call acceptable accuracy for iron sights or a red dot?

As long as you can hit a pie plate at 100 under stress then i believe that is acceptable. My definition of acceptable may differ from others based on my personal experiences. 2-3" at 100 with irons isn't bad though.

 

[Basher]

I use a 4MOA T-1, so if I’m being realistic for a defensive carbine used off-hand, I’d expect 4MOA under stress. That’d still put me at Minute of Man out to 400 yards on a good day, or about 300 yards on a bad one.

Can I do better w/ quality ammo and on a square one-way range? Absolutely! But that’s what I’d expect from myself and the rifle if things go two-ways and Tango Uniform based on my level of training and using decent bulk ammo.

With a precision gas gun, I’m looking for 1MOA as an absolute max “acceptable” (not “I’m happy,” but “I’m satisfied”) accuracy w/ factory ammo, 3/4MOA on an average day, and 1/2MOA when the weather’s right, the planets are aligned, I ate my Wheatie’s, and washed behind my ears. Better is always, well... better ha, but this is what I consider reasonable and expected from myself and my current equipment.

 

[eddie102870]

this is a group at 1000 with a 6.5 creedmoor. Very calm day

 

[DeftSystems]

Interested to hear everyone’s thoughts on a reasonable expectation for semi-auto group size. At what point are you happy? I will divide this as well in to two parts, it seems to me that there are two camps in the semi-auto (ar-15/10) world: “Standard Guns” and “Custom Guns”. I understand it is not reasonable to expect the AR15 you built in your basement to meet the same standard as a JP, Seekins, GAP, etc. What do you expect from each?

I ask because I recently built a 224V and am in the process of working up loads for the gun. This weekend I was out at the range and had two loads that consistently shot 5-round 1.07-1.14 MOA groups at 200 yards (with a huge jump due to my current magazine, so there is some work to be done there…) If this was your gun and you could dial it down another quarter MOA and get to .75 MOA would you stop messing with it?

I have never had a “precision” rifle of any sort and want to set my expectations in-line with what is considered good for a semi.

Cheers.

I shoot an 18" Daniel Defense upper, Magpul PRS stock, Geislle trigger, 77grn SMK. My setup is likely a 3/4 MOA gun. I am pleased to hold 1 MOA in field prone conditions, fully warmed up. If I dropped down right now to shoot a group? Probably 1.3-1.5 MOA in truth. I don't shoot as much as I'd like. My "confirm zero" is a half inch square hole in a steel plate. It usually takes me a couple shots to get that "swish" round at 100m.

I hope that this information gave you a piece of data to help build your expectation. Gas gun shooting is hard work, and it magnifies your mistakes. It's a lot of high speed gas and metal flying around for the shooter to maintain.

 

[jasewhitehead08]

Fucking hell. I went and bought some of that 62gr to try out.

This was from zeroing my franken gun sig mcx/rattler 11.5 556. 50m with a red dot.

Never had 62gr shoot for shit - this stuff gets the new exception to that rule.
View attachment 7050315

those and the 77 gr from magtech are also good out of my 16" both run great.

 

[RTH1800]

I will post my opinions on this even thought they will get me toasted.
Triggers do not effect accuracy. I like good ones. Geissele makes a great one. They make rifles more shootable but have zero effect on accuracy.
I have varying accuracy standards for the two classes of AR 15 I shoot. My hunting rifles in .223 need to hold 6" of vertical at 600 yards for 10 shot groups. This with the 77 SMK load in low or no wind. Certainly nothing from 6 or 12 o'clock.
My bull barrel varmint rifles in .204 are evaluated at 100 meters. 10 shot groups are .25" or less. Not sure what my "standard" is but this far exceeds my expectation.

And no, these are not averages of 10 or 50 10 shot groups. I am not a group shooter and really am not going to burn a barrel out searching for the true meaning of accuracy. I go out on a nice day and verify POI, get a long range no wind zero and start killing crows. I don't pick the best or worst. I just fire one or two groups.

 

[Eustice]

I have a lot of experience in gas guns.

I was a machinist at a gun company, making gas guns. I did the engineering and design - not just running the CNC lathe’s and 5axis stuff.

I can tell you that where most people get gas guns wrong is in controlling the time between the sear breaking and the primer ignition.

It takes so much longer of a time for that hammer to make the endless journey to the firing pin that bad habits or compromised positions flat out result in misses and poor groups. A striker fired bolt gun has a lock time so short you can almost pull the trigger and then javelin throw the gun and still get a solid hit.

The hard hold technique works well for dealing with this poor lock time in a gas guns workflow - there are other ways but none as simple to teach and get results.

The second place people get jammed up is in the spring/buffer/bolt motion arena. Too fast and you can damage the round being fed or move the bullet in the case and too slow and your buffer may not strike the rear of the buffer tube.

This is made worse the more you exit the arena of the two design intent cartridges - 308 and 556. These days we have learned enough about 6.5 CM and 300 blackout to make good reliable working guns, but that is probably only in the last few years we really got it nailed down. +2 gas especially on 6.5.

Another poster said that the key areas are bolt/barrel/trigger and that is a pretty good place to start. As long as your optic mounting is good and your hand guard doesn’t touch the gas block you are generally GTG. One thing to watch is some mlok accessories will hit the gas block if mounted underneath.

The final thing I would leave you with is having a tight barrel to upper fit is worth it. If your extension is loose - do something about that for sure. Loctite on the barrel extension is good - but a steel shim is even better.

That’s a great post and touched on everything. With a bolt gun you’ve got the trigger and the firing pin with so little motion that it becomes easy to manage. The AR FCG has a lot more motion.

You’re right to bring up the whole gas system and buffer weight and buffer spring. All of that affects accuracy whereas in a bolt gun it doesn’t come into play since it’s not there. You don’t want those lugs unlocking while the round is still in the barrel.

Damn that was a good post, man! I’d like it twice if I could. I hope people who are new to ARs see it so they can figure out their builds.

 

[Eustice]

To add to the OP’s original question, there’s no reason why a home built rifle can’t outshoot a factory rifle. If you use quality parts and assemble them correctly then the rifle should shoot well. Lapping the upper receiver is one of the things that can help. There’s a thread on that somewhere else. Even the high dollar uppers may be a shade off. It’s something to look at.

As was said earlier, buying a $2200 factory gun and comparing it to a $1200 home built rifle isn’t comparing apples to apples. If you spent $2200 on parts and then compared that rifle to a $2200 factory gun then you’d have a good comparison.

 

[Platinumblonde]

I’ve got a rock river arms with a 24” match barrelthat literally will put 5 or more 55 GR am eagle .223 bullets through the same hole at 100 yards......but it’s a PIG.

 

[Colorado S14]

Just to update my endeavors on this, I ended up ditching the Ballistic Advantage barrel on the gun and went to a Craddock Rock Creek. Last weekend I went out with some general 224V handloads (80gr. ELD, 25gr. H4895, big jump) and did a 5x5 test at 200yds. Average MOA for the 5 groups was .91MOA. I believe that I can pull a little more out of it by dialing the loads and by improving my shooting. I would guess that I can whittle it down to a .6-.75moa gun with me behind it eventually.

The strive for continuous improvement continues!

 

[MontanaMan]

Just to update my endeavors on this, I ended up ditching the Ballistic Advantage barrel on the gun and went to a Craddock Rock Creek. Last weekend I went out with some general 224V handloads (80gr. ELD, 25gr. H4895, big jump) and did a 5x5 test at 200yds. Average MOA for the 5 groups was .91MOA. I believe that I can pull a little more out of it by dialing the loads and by improving my shooting. I would guess that I can whittle it down to a .6-.75moa gun with me behind it eventually.

The strive for continuous improvement continues!

I love Craddock Rock Creek barrels........................

MM

 

[Belisarius]

500 yards 90gr. SMK

same day 600 yards

 

[Tapper]

From my Colt Match H-BAR 1:7 twist , 1980's vintage with iron sights , I can lay a dime on a three shot group fired at 100yds. Using Federal Lake City 62gr FMJ's . For me that is a normal expectation.

Wow. Ben Cleland (Sgt.) fired the first ever perfect score this year in service rifle competition with an AR15 and iron sights, and his groups were about 4 times the size of yours! That would make you the best shot in the whole world man! Sponsor endorsements, trophies galore, hot chix!

Either that, or you're completely full of shit

 

[Copper818]

this is a group at 1000 with a 6.5 creedmoor. Very calm day

What rifle is this?

 

[jasewhitehead08]

What rifle is this?

it's a 6.5 creedmoore built by rangerproof. not sure if he is building rifles anymore though

 

[eddie102870]

What rifle is this?

Darren Mccall at Rangerproof arms built it. 22 in JP barrel, shoots lights out. ive head shot more deer with this thing. its just a pig to tote.

 

[MontanaMan]

Darren Mccall at Rangerproof arms built it. 22 in JP barrel, shoots lights out. ive head shot more deer with this thing. its just a pig to tote.View attachment 7182526

Not much resemblance of that rifle to your everyday Recce; hard to make an apple to apples comparison of "absolute" accuracy level potential.

MM

 

[jasewhitehead08]

Not much resemblance of that rifle to your everyday Recce; hard to make an apple to apples comparison of "absolute" accuracy level potential.

MM

compared to what? an everyday Recce?

 

[eddie102870]

i have AR's with what i call pencil barrel's that shoot just as good. not to 1000 because of the caliber but at 500-600 yards they shoot. They will showcase bad shooting form a lot more than a bolt gun from my experience.