What is Retro in Shooting
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HK claw scope mounts like on the G3A3
Carry handle mounted optics (pseudo making a comeback now due to risers being a thing)
CAR stocks which are also seeing a comeback as far as using the smaller profile especially with armor carriers
Drag bags; still used, but have now moved onto rifle carrying packs
MILDOT master with the gangster fishing weight/fishing line on the back for a slope doper
BDC turrets
The 'old' way of reading wind, with the picture charts of things like 'if the bush is shaking its 5-7mph' used in every FM I've ever seen
Hawkins position
Cleaning your weapon literally everytime you shoot any amount of rounds through it
22LR was only good for plinking cans at 50 yards
Shooting Chrony; and the eventuality of you actually shooting it
Using an actual sock with sand in it for a rear bag
Shooting constants and all kinds of weird ass math you did while shooting
Carry handle mounted optics (pseudo making a comeback now due to risers being a thing)
CAR stocks which are also seeing a comeback as far as using the smaller profile especially with armor carriers
Drag bags; still used, but have now moved onto rifle carrying packs
MILDOT master with the gangster fishing weight/fishing line on the back for a slope doper
BDC turrets
The 'old' way of reading wind, with the picture charts of things like 'if the bush is shaking its 5-7mph' used in every FM I've ever seen
Hawkins position
Cleaning your weapon literally everytime you shoot any amount of rounds through it
22LR was only good for plinking cans at 50 yards
Shooting Chrony; and the eventuality of you actually shooting it
Using an actual sock with sand in it for a rear bag
Shooting constants and all kinds of weird ass math you did while shooting
I have a jumping off point,
But you guys are talking more gear than mindset, mindset falls in line with my past writing
I think saying how would have written a similar article in 1980 is a smarter way to look at it,
How did we do things in the past, what worked that has been pushed aside for a more modern approach but has left people less profient in the long run.
Legacy skills are tools for the toolbox that keep that level of proficiency high but is not dependent on gear
But you guys are talking more gear than mindset, mindset falls in line with my past writing
I think saying how would have written a similar article in 1980 is a smarter way to look at it,
How did we do things in the past, what worked that has been pushed aside for a more modern approach but has left people less profient in the long run.
Legacy skills are tools for the toolbox that keep that level of proficiency high but is not dependent on gear
I like the databook as retro. We've come to be so inclined to use various shooting solution software(s) that we have forgotten how to use and or utilize databooks. Along with that is the approach you take to shooting knowing your going to literally journal every shot. While I take pretty good notes for load development I am terrible at it when target shooting. It's something I'm trying to do more often. For me, it makes me slow down. Analyze each shot, or shot group, while I write down what I observed.
Long division vs. calculator, for example is how I look at databooks vs software/smartphones.
Long division vs. calculator, for example is how I look at databooks vs software/smartphones.
I hear what everyone is saying about data books, but I feel plenty of people still use them, like myself. Sling shooting and such is probably way less utilized in today's shooting compared to data book usage. Mine is my bible. Load development notes, ammo truing, barrel round count, etc.
I know the article isn't about reloading but isn't it kind of strange how a cartridge (250 Savage) made 100+ years ago fathered the current darling 6.5 Creed?
And, the powder most used to load it is H-4350. It's been around longer than most of the members here.
Just strikes me a little funny.
And, the powder most used to load it is H-4350. It's been around longer than most of the members here.
Just strikes me a little funny.
How bout something on George Farr, not expected on first look to be a killer, that absolutely killed it.
www.nrablog.com
When peeps think its all about technology heres a guy that even today he is still talked about.
www.ssusa.org
Its the Indian not the Bow.
An Old Man at the National Matches: 'Dad’ Farr’s Golden Afternoon at Camp Perry
How a first-timer at the National Matches made a memorable impact with...
When peeps think its all about technology heres a guy that even today he is still talked about.
An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Birth of a Legend: The Farr Rifle
In 1921 George Farr fired an incredible string of 71 consecutive bullseyes, all with government-issue ammunition and a rifle he had just picked out that day.
Its the Indian not the Bow.
Im kinda late to the party here but I have an idea. I know the Legacy idea is probably the direction you're heading but my idea is unique.
How about approaching from "retro equipment" from back in the day that could give a new shooter a more budget minded option to higher end equipment thats common today? How did long range shooters measure wind before Kestrels? How did they range before laser range finders? What was added to stocks before adjustables were created?
The way I came up with this idea is that too mamy gun and hunting magazines make you think you MUST have the latest and greatest of whatever equipment is in your field. Archery is my biggest pet peeve. The magazines make it seem if you're not buying the newest bow every year, you shouldn't hit the woods.
New equipment definitely makes things easier but there are options.
How about approaching from "retro equipment" from back in the day that could give a new shooter a more budget minded option to higher end equipment thats common today? How did long range shooters measure wind before Kestrels? How did they range before laser range finders? What was added to stocks before adjustables were created?
The way I came up with this idea is that too mamy gun and hunting magazines make you think you MUST have the latest and greatest of whatever equipment is in your field. Archery is my biggest pet peeve. The magazines make it seem if you're not buying the newest bow every year, you shouldn't hit the woods.
New equipment definitely makes things easier but there are options.
Lots of improvements in reloading from the 80s:
Beam scale or measuring cups to auto throw/trickle
Annealing with flame to induction
Hand trim to Giraud / Henderson
Lee press to CoAx or Area 419
Vibratory tumbler to ultrasonic or wet
Etc
just tossing it out there
Beam scale or measuring cups to auto throw/trickle
Annealing with flame to induction
Hand trim to Giraud / Henderson
Lee press to CoAx or Area 419
Vibratory tumbler to ultrasonic or wet
Etc
just tossing it out there
Well, from a mindset standpoint and considering the 80’s, we used guns like the 7mm Rem Mag to account for our lack of real ability to estimate range and often swagged it and hoped its flatter trajectory than a 30-30 would overcome our mistakes. Even using a 3x9 Redfield Accutrack scope for ranging was not that accurate and limited our mindset to shooting game at less than 500 yards. Now.......good grief, people apparently think it’s a good idea to shoot at elk 700 yards plus away with a 6.5 Creedmoor with the help of rangefinders and ballistic apps.
Yeah I remember reading soldier of fortune years ago, one of the guys they highlighted was doing work in Africa with a 300RUM
Now 7rem mag is a awesome cartridge don’t be calling it retro
I am already writing it,
Went with Legacy skills,
Reticle Ranging, Slings, Databooks, etc,
I want to touch on more than point, so rather than focused article about X, it's a little bit extra
Went with Legacy skills,
Reticle Ranging, Slings, Databooks, etc,
I want to touch on more than point, so rather than focused article about X, it's a little bit extra
Compared to today’s gadgets, retro kind of brings to mind some of the things mentioned by Ed Kugler’s book in the school practice part.
Ranging/ zero setting with a plain reticle.
Using maps to help in that area.
“Tumbling those football fields” to guesstimate range.
Something young shooters can employ well if they played sports or track and know by heart what 100 or 400 meters looks like without having to drop hundreds of dollars on a rangefinder.
Practical creative stuff.
Shooting off a pack, rolled up jacket, prone off a stack of dirt clods on plowed ground.
Field shooting from sitting using something solid at your back to help stability.
Could go really retro to the sharps rifle creedmoor shoots where they lay on thier backs with the barrel rested between their toes.
Ranging/ zero setting with a plain reticle.
Using maps to help in that area.
“Tumbling those football fields” to guesstimate range.
Something young shooters can employ well if they played sports or track and know by heart what 100 or 400 meters looks like without having to drop hundreds of dollars on a rangefinder.
Practical creative stuff.
Shooting off a pack, rolled up jacket, prone off a stack of dirt clods on plowed ground.
Field shooting from sitting using something solid at your back to help stability.
Could go really retro to the sharps rifle creedmoor shoots where they lay on thier backs with the barrel rested between their toes.
Link when done......your retro is my present.
I wish someone would write a book.........
Hey is that a shot?
Im bringing a friggen Kestrel with me.....
New Kestrel Elite Owner, Class coming up.
Took advantage of the Cameraland sale and bought a Kestrel Sportsman that I have upgraded to a 5700 Elite. Found a Bushnell Conx RF in the PX to pair up with it. Taking a 1000 yard class at Sig in mid May and hope to play some with my Kestrel and get my feet wet with it on a KD range. Ill be...
www.snipershide.com
This message sent via my phone.....
And how about a tour through your safe. Im betting youve got stuff stashed that would make most of us jealous. I may never own it but Id like to see it.
My favorite gun shop sells most of his inventory on line through what he says are Gun Digest ads.
I dont understand the format.
I understand their media sales, I understand the articles but I have never found the gun sales.
I need to see what the Honey Hole sells that I miss.
Okay, I know you are already writing, but one more thought. You are currently a rifle instructor. In 2020. How about an article from the perspective of a (2020) precision rifle instructor critiquing a 1980(ish) rifle marksman.
This turned out to be a good discussion
The article is written
I went all Joe Biden and plagiarized the "Legacy Skills" idea from here,
Slings, Positions Reticle Ranging, Databooks
1000 words
The article is written
I went all Joe Biden and plagiarized the "Legacy Skills" idea from here,
Slings, Positions Reticle Ranging, Databooks
1000 words
Range card sketching would be another legacy skill that I think would be interesting. Slings, prepared positions, stalking, camouflage & concealment...(you already hit on range estimation). Oh, and using a compass (landnav)...
(Yeah, I know, I'm late to the party.)
At our last match we had guys get their "brief" via a range card for a field stage. It was clear that many were struggling with understanding the range card (that or it was just my crappy drawing skills).
(Yeah, I know, I'm late to the party.)
At our last match we had guys get their "brief" via a range card for a field stage. It was clear that many were struggling with understanding the range card (that or it was just my crappy drawing skills).
MilDot Master
Football dot reticle.
Anything in the VIntage thread.
Tangent sights (they were really good with .577 Sniders at 1000 yards). Might as well have a mortar.
Ross Rifles
Civil War Whitworth hexagonal rifling (effective to 1400 yards!)
Wood stocks with glass bedding.
Sniper school post Vietnam, pre-GWOT...
Using a M2 with a Unertl as a SWS
Early night scopes such as the M3 carbine IR system.
The Boers and how they revolutionized the art.
Rogers, Morgan and Berdan and their shooting standards.
Just a few ideas. I am sure the article will be great.
Sirhr
How do you "write" retro with an old flintlock
Just repeating the fundamentals and talking the same way except with a different picture?
Trigger control, manipulation of the trigger without disturbing the lay of the sites,
It's not a picture book where you are just looking at pictures
ANd the 1 second delay between the flint falling and the gun actually going off... while under fire at Saratoga and trying to take a British Major off his horse at 400 yards. Yes, that is a good topic!
Any time you want to visit schloss nitrocellulose and shoot some of this stuff, you are welcome to!
Sirhr
And a last thought... Ed Bearss is still alive and living in virginia. The most revered historian of the Civil War still alive... author of more than 100 books. Former head historian of the National Parks Service. And a member of the first class of Marine Scout Snipers trained after Guadalcanal. The first class of Marine Snipers. Hit by a Japanese sniper the day after Christmas Day, 1942 on Cape Gloucester.
Mind sharp as a tack. I interviewed him for a book a couple of years ago and he would be glad to do an Interview for Snipers HIde.
His assistant can set it up... I think I still have contact info. He ain't going to be around forever....
Sirhr
Mind sharp as a tack. I interviewed him for a book a couple of years ago and he would be glad to do an Interview for Snipers HIde.
His assistant can set it up... I think I still have contact info. He ain't going to be around forever....
Sirhr
Understand that the point of this thread is moot now as the work is done, I like this topic. Now, I still shoot SFP Mildot scopes with MOA reticles . Guess that's "retro" but the shit still works. Why? Another retro item, a range card with TRPs. Guess there's no need for them anymore but I do one in every area I hunt, for a rifle and a bow.
Big one for me, shooting for the love of the sport. No fucking prize tables. Just a set of rules. A group of honest, driven guys and a time limit. You can range (if needed) read condition and call the shot. No gadgets or bullshit. Winner gets to talk shit. Afterward, some liquor and maybe a decent cigar.
"Precision Shooting " has gotten big for sure but not neccessary better.
This is from 2001
Big one for me, shooting for the love of the sport. No fucking prize tables. Just a set of rules. A group of honest, driven guys and a time limit. You can range (if needed) read condition and call the shot. No gadgets or bullshit. Winner gets to talk shit. Afterward, some liquor and maybe a decent cigar.
"Precision Shooting " has gotten big for sure but not neccessary better.
This is from 2001
I think you really missed out on a chance to discuss the importance of choosing your weapon before a duel.
View attachment 7317862
Or the lost art of using twine as a plate carrier.
View attachment 7317867
AR500 Body Armor is still selling those.......
Getting work done with a .308, fixed 10x, Mil-dots, and a sock full of rice. A love story
Retro, believing the bullet hole over internet, would-a,...could-a,...should-a
How about perception of accuracy and distance
I remember the first time I looked through my 1” variable maxed out at 9x at a torso at 300 yards thinking man that’s a ways out.
now a new shooter goes down to Cabelas drops coin on a mass produced rifle, picks upmatch grade ammo off the shelf and legitimately equipped to shoot 1K yards (still may not make a hit but will be in the ball park)
wasn’t too long ago the effort time and cost to get a rifle that consistent shot sub MOA was a lot. Now it’s a damn near universal expectation/assumption.
I remember the first time I looked through my 1” variable maxed out at 9x at a torso at 300 yards thinking man that’s a ways out.
now a new shooter goes down to Cabelas drops coin on a mass produced rifle, picks upmatch grade ammo off the shelf and legitimately equipped to shoot 1K yards (still may not make a hit but will be in the ball park)
wasn’t too long ago the effort time and cost to get a rifle that consistent shot sub MOA was a lot. Now it’s a damn near universal expectation/assumption.
Knowing the article is already written - remember when you used to be happy with your performance compared to your own personal performance and not when we were so aware of others and keeping up with the Jones for equipment, skills, performance? I used to really like shooting until I knew how bad I was at it in comparison.
Forgetting your kestrel at home so you throw dirt in the air?
F EFI bikes.My garage is full of retro: Data books, REM700 308's, slings, harris bipods, shoot-n-see 3 shot groups. Armalite AR with iron sights. Woodland camo. Motorcycles with carbs.
Sling and iron positional competition. It's still done, just hard to find.
F-class/highpower. Fixed distance with all sorts of limitations. They restrict technology and make you focus on actually shooting, building a stable position without tripods, 3 bags, and bipods that cost as much as the gun they're on.
F-class/highpower. Fixed distance with all sorts of limitations. They restrict technology and make you focus on actually shooting, building a stable position without tripods, 3 bags, and bipods that cost as much as the gun they're on.
Everything in FMFM 1-3B.
When I feel nostalgic, I make myself bear crawl to the grand and back, sling some 173gr after dialing one minute down on my fine tune because it’s 20 degrees warmer than when I zeroed, and then I clean the fuck out of my bore because I fired thirty rounds.
Naw, I just look at my old ruck in the garage that has my ghillie in it with fond memories, walk back in the house and go upstairs while wincing every step as I hear my knees creak and pop, grab a beer and load up some 140s for the .260 that I’ll drive the 1/2 mile to the range to shoot.
Real retro is iron sights, I do still shoot with those as much as I do optics.
When I feel nostalgic, I make myself bear crawl to the grand and back, sling some 173gr after dialing one minute down on my fine tune because it’s 20 degrees warmer than when I zeroed, and then I clean the fuck out of my bore because I fired thirty rounds.
Naw, I just look at my old ruck in the garage that has my ghillie in it with fond memories, walk back in the house and go upstairs while wincing every step as I hear my knees creak and pop, grab a beer and load up some 140s for the .260 that I’ll drive the 1/2 mile to the range to shoot.
Real retro is iron sights, I do still shoot with those as much as I do optics.
1) Civil/revolutionary war era marksmanship and ranging (lots of existing material to reference)
2) Manufacturing techniques and development processes on some of the first “precision” rifles/muskets, and the pursuit of long range capable rifles before modern CNC capabilities.
3) The evolution of gear/load out from buffalo hunters to now. Slings, sights, munition, etc
2) Manufacturing techniques and development processes on some of the first “precision” rifles/muskets, and the pursuit of long range capable rifles before modern CNC capabilities.
3) The evolution of gear/load out from buffalo hunters to now. Slings, sights, munition, etc
^^^^^^ This ^^^^^
Along with some Carolos Hathcock time period stuff.
It’s not too old, or to new.
or just a rock is pretty retro that or a stick spear maybe a boomerang all three are still used to day and were prolific in there time and allowed people to hunt further and further away .
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