What is the most Historically Significant Cartridge?

[hrfunk]

My thread on cartridge stagnation got me to thinking about the most historically significant cartridge in terms of its influence on future firearm/cartridge development and/or world events. Rather than alter my previous thread, I thought I'd start a new discussion. So here we go: What is the most historically significant small arms cartridge ever developed, and why?

HRF

 

[ksthomas]

The 8mm Lebel, or the 7.92x33mm. I think you could make a case for either of these.

The 8mm Lebel as it ushered in the era of smokeless propellants, an event I think most of us would agree was world-altering. It made virtually every army still using black powder obsolete, and caused a massive rearmament program for all to meet the new threat. It also allowed the greatest developments in firearms design, as the negatives of black powder was what prevented the development of better action types such as gas operated autoloaders and machineguns. The greater power afforded by this propellant increased velocity and range to what we're still seeing today, which in turn spurred the development of better bullets, etc..

The 7.92x33mm marked a sea change in cartridge design, intended to address the range limitations of modern (1940s and beyond) combat. Intended to allow the infantryman to carry greater amounts of ammo and increase his personal firepower, while still being lethal at typical combat ranges, it got away from the excessively powerful rounds like the 30-06, 8x57mm and the 7.62x54R. The rest of the world saw the advantages and copied the concept, if not always the design itself. This is what gave us the 7.62x39mm M43 and the NATO 5.56mm rounds. Important changes, all going back to recognizing the changing nature of combat from the Napoleanic tactics still lingering when most of the other cartridges I mentioned were developed.

 

[kraigWY]

Minnie Ball.

 

[Desert_308]

The 65 caliber ball and the 30.06 a close second.

 

[BALLISTIC]

30-30, America's first Smokeless cartridge. 2nd, 30-06 America's first spitzer bullet cartridge.

 

[ksthomas]

To those who answered with the 30-06, just curious' what makes the '06 so historically significant? Especially on the world stage, since the OPs question wasn't limited to US developments.

 

[Hlavinka]

8mm Lebel "Balle D"

 

[jake7.62]

7.62x54R..... It's been in use for well over 100 years so far and isn't going anywhere. It's seen use in WWI,WWII, Korea, Vietnam all the way through to today's battlefields. So hands down it gets my vote. It may not be a favorite of mine but you have to respect it.

 

[ksthomas]

8mm Lebel "Balle D"

Definately a good answer. I didn't extend it into bullet design as well, but this WAS the trend setter that launched a world-wide arms race, even if the bullet didn't become known until after the Germans introduced the Spitzer to the rest of the world.

Wonder if anyone else has considered the truly revolutionary cartridge; the original cartridges of paper ('charta' in Latin) that Sweden's King Gustavus Adolphus ordered his troops to carry sometime in the early 1600s. First example of fixed ammunition, and the grandfather of everything that came down the road ever since.

 

[Desert_308]

To those who answered with the 30-06, just curious' what makes the '06 so historically significant? Especially on the world stage, since the OPs question wasn't limited to US developments.

The M1 Garand chambered in 30.06 was used in the European and Pacific theaters of the Second World War. I would say very significant.

 

[ksthomas]

The question was about cartridge development, not firearms. The 30-06 was (and is) a good design, but certainly nothing revolutionary. After all, it's parent cartridge, the 30-03, only lasted two years before undergoing a complete overhaul.

Incidentally, the Garand wasn't orginially designed as a 30-06; it was designed in 276 Pedersen, using a ten-round clip. The 30-06 version was due to John Garand's anticipation that the 276 wouldn't be approved. He did the 30-06 design work on his own initiative, and largely on his own time. Smart guy, John C.!

 

[rem338win]

Well, the Lebel sure was an achievement, but what conflicts and standards did it set?
Personally, I would say the 7x57. It did manage to give its users some significant range and accuracy advantages and was the first smokeless bottle neck cartridge to see consistent use by a military organization. It was the cause of the USAs development of the 30-40 and 30-06 (and 30-03) and their adoption of spitzer (though the 8x57 could share in that) not to mention it was the granddaddy of the most popular case (30-06, .308, the two Savages and all cartridges parented) ever.
My 0.02!

 

[hrfunk]

Ok, after some consideration, I selected what is certainly the most controversial option on my list of contenders. Specifically, the 5.56X45 mm. Here's why: conceived a half century ago, it mated reasonably effective short to medium range terminal ballistics with a cartridge size that could allow our troops to increase the ammunition capacity of their magazines as well as that which could be carried on their bodies by 1/3 (yes, I know the M-16 originally had a 20 round magazine, but it didn't take long for the 30 round version to appear). There is no dispute that various larger cartridges provide better long range performance, but the 5.56 is "effective enough" at the distances where most engagements occur, and it generates a recoil impulse that most any shooter can master in a rifle that's light enough for soldiers of the smallest stature to employ proficiently. The same cannot be said for the larger cartridges. No less than the USSR itself bowed to the wisdom of the concept when, about a decade after after the M-16 was fielded, they adopted the 5.45X39. Let the wailing and gnashing begin!

HRF

 

[ksthomas]

The 8mm Lebel . . . it did serve through both world wars and a wide variety of other conflicts, although is was obsolete within a few decades of introduction. But it did set THE standards for both bullet design and first use of the new smokeless propellants. This opened the door to dozens of other advancements and developments that resulted from the cleaner, more efficient powder alone. Certainly not to knock the 7x57, and it did indeed spawn an entire family of well-known offspring that still serve us today.

Still think there's something to be said for the 7.92x33, too, in that it did directly influence the development of the M43, arguably the most "popular" cartridge and weapons family ever developed, based on numbers produced.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

.32 ACP, the same round used to kill Archduke Franz Ferdinand, and pretty much start World War 1.

 

[ksthomas]

.32 ACP, the same round used to kill Archduke Franz Ferdinand, and pretty much start World War 1.

ArmaHeavy,

Given that WWII was merely a continuation of WWI . . . you may have a point there.

 

[ksthomas]

HRF,

Nothing really revolutionary with the 5.56mm, either. It was based on an existing and well established round, and merely followed in the same established tactical path as the 7.92x33 or 7.62x39. Not to mention the 280 British that the FN-FAL was originally designed around, and was SUPPOSED to be adopted by NATO. But that's another whole, ugly, embarrassing story. The SCHV concept had been kicked around a bit, but this was the first practical application on a large scale. As for thr Russians adoption of the 5.45x39, we definitely influenced them, but note that the Spetsnaz teams still stick with the 7.62x39s for their ops. Also worth noting that our most likely future enemy, the Chinese, went with a larger bore in their latest military rifles.

Good thread! I like chatting about this stuff.

 

[rem338win]

My retort on the Lebel is: its french so was it really used? :evil:
Sorry, I digressed and moving on....
The 7x57 was an original case design, and unrimmed, whereas the 8mm Lebel was developed off of a black powder cartridge, rimmed. The truth of there being a pointed/boat tail design involved in the D ball was great, but it we call it a "spitzer" because of the Germans. They stole the thunder for sure.

For every Lebel round fired I would suppose a hundred (I am estimating this over the timelines of the wars in shich it was involved, all the nations that adopted it, etc.) 7X57 were fired. Its common and extensive use, and uncommon (at the time) heritage would give me far more weight to the 7mm Mauser over its predecessors and contemporaries.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Off the cuff, I'd say '06. Yet I'd have a hard time arguing against many of the above choices, including the Minie in paper cartridge form. The .577 Snider also could be argued for... in the Enfield Conversion.

But one needs to consider the duration that the .308/7.62 has now been around. And its versatility. History didn't start or stop with WW1. It's still being made every day.

The 7.62 x 51 could arguably now be the most historically significant. Pre-Vietnam to present. Fired in everything from miniguns to sniper rifles. From every platform imaginable. How many Camp Perry wins? Police use?

I'd also have a hard time arguing against the classic 7.62 x 39 AK round. Given the prevalence of the AK... everywhere. From Sierra-Bravo terrorists to line infantrymen in FUSSR... the cartridge is hard to separate from the gun.

Last... no one has mentioned the .45 ACP. Browning's great contribution to design. From the trenches to the preferred weapon of 1-SFOD to the Tommy gun. Can't rule it out. Its latest renaissance just proves its versatility.

Just my $0.02 to an interesting question. And in the spirit of fuzzifying the muddification, it's also a one hard to nail down.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[hrfunk]

You're right, of course, about the 5.56 being based on previously developed cartridges and concepts, but I think those concepts were brought to fruition in the, then, new cartridge. It supplanted the 30 cal cartridges that preceded it, and set the stage for similar developments by other nations. In the past 50 years it has been refined and improved; and it's not likely to be replaced any time soon.

HRF

 

[wilecoyote]

8mm Lebel "Balle D"

...and nothing less than a BRONZE SOLID spitzer boattail ($$$$!): when all the rest of the world, in 1898, in comparison, was throwing cheap rocks out their rifles...

 

[ksthomas]

Agreed, it IS truly amazing how active and successful the French have been in advancing the field of firearms and ballistics. So much of the language of bullets, firearms and ballistics is French; cannelure, meplat, ogive, bourelette, etc., and then consider the technological advances they given us. Pointed bullets, boat tails, smokeless propellants, any number of operating systems, and even the SAW concept.

Now, if they'd only try actually using them in combat instead of waiting for the USA to bail them out of the feces when they'd find themselves in there. Novel concept, there.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Agreed, it IS truly amazing how active and successful the French have been in advancing the field of firearms and ballistics. So much of the language of bullets, firearms and ballistics is French; cannelure, meplat, ogive, bourelette, etc., and then consider the technological advances they given us. Pointed bullets, boat tails, smokeless propellants, any number of operating systems, and even the SAW concept.

Now, if they'd only try actually using them in combat instead of waiting for the USA to bail them out of the feces when they'd find themselves in there. Novel concept, there.

While the phrase "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" comes to mind, we do owe a debt to Lafayette and the French c. 1778.

Probably repaid many times over. But once upon a time... they were good. Very good. We owe our existence to their support and expertise, once upon a time. We should not forget that.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[hrfunk]

Are you kidding? They've worn out more firearms than any other country in the world by handing them over in surrender!

HRF

 

[hrfunk]

Okay, point taken Sirhr.

HRF

 

[ksthomas]

Said they designed good weapons . . . never said they were willing to actually USE them.

 

[wilecoyote]

Mr.Thomas, I have the suspicion that you've had a savvy choice workin'on ballistic related items and NOT in intn'l diplomacy !

 

[ksthomas]

Mr.Thomas, I have the suspicion that you've had a savvy choice workin'on ballistic related items and NOT in intn'l diplomacy !

Never been known for diplomacy. I'm okay with that.

 

[ksthomas]

Almost forgot another one other that goes to the French. Most shooters are familiar with the concept of Ballistic Coefficient (BC) and at least some of the various drag models that are used in those tables. But how many here were aware of the fact that the G1, G7 and the rest of the G series, are all named as an homage to the Gavre Commission that performed some of the earliest drag experiments. When the G1, G2, G7, etc., were developed by E.D. Lowrey in the 1940s, he designated the drag models as G-whatever, as a way of offering his respects to the pioneerinf work done by them at the end of the previous century. They ran some of their projectiles up to astonishing velocities, even by today's standards. Something on the order of 5,000 fps or a bit more, if memory serves.

Given them credit where due, they were the world leaders in this field for quite some time, and are directly or indirectly responsible for much of what we know and use today.

 

[hrfunk]

Here's one to mull over: the 9mm Parabellum. It's the only one that comes to mind that's over 100 years old and still in widespread use by military units and police departments all around the Globe. As much as I love the .45, its historic rival has achieved world-wide acceptance.

HRF

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Here's one to mull over: the 9mm Parabellum. It's the only one that comes to mind that's over 100 years old and still in widespread use by military units and police departments all around the Globe. As much as I love the .45, its historic rival has achieved world-wide acceptance.

HRF

Considered this when I mentioned the .45. And I think I stand corrected. Your point is well taken. As a pistol cartridge, the 9mm is more significant, historically. I won't get into the argument about which is better. Ever.

But it's probably no coincidence that John Browning's P1935 Hi Power was chambered for the 9mm... and was probably his finest handgun design. 1911 fans will flame me for that. But the Hi Power is a gem. I love 1911's and carried for years. But the Hi Power is one of those guns that just 'fits' me. Never miss with it. Ever. Point, shoot, hit. 1911's are great and love the ACP. But the Hi Power is... Browning's finest.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[hrfunk]

Just thinking about the number of weapons chambered for the Parabellum in the past 110 years is staggering. Semi-auto pistols, (a few) revolvers, SMG's, and even a few carbines.

HRF

 

[Hlavinka]

...and nothing less than a BRONZE SOLID spitzer boattail ($$$$!): when all the rest of the world, in 1898, in comparison, was throwing cheap rocks out their rifles...

Exactly! I'm no Francophile but I'll give them their due when it comes to early cartridge design.
How about the the Swiss and bullet design? Our fantastic US M1 ball projectile comes from the Swiss GP11.

 

[kytrapper]

While the cartridges mentioned were in fine weapons and dominated the Fields of there era,

I vote for the .52 cal rimfire...........Patented in 1854 and adopt in 1860 in the spencer rifle in what I believe was the first offical military repeating rifle. Fired at a whopping 20 rd per min

The Spencer Repeating rifle

 

[long range newbie]

22lr almost everyone starts on it. So its where it began for many shooters kids love it adults love it. you can plink without breaking the bank you can hunt without breaking the bank(squirrels, rabbits etc).

 

[loper]

Well, there's the .303 British round. From 1898 to the advent of the 7.62X51, the British Empire was pretty busy during that time frame.

 

[hrfunk]

I almost nominated the .22 short since it was the first successful self-contained cartridge. Every other brass cased cartridge evolved from that diminutive progenitor.

HRF

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I almost nominated the .22 short since it was the first successful self-contained cartridge. Every other brass cased cartridge evolved from that diminutive progenitor.

HRF

Did the .22 short not evolve from the CB and the CB long, developed by Flobert for gallery use? Semantics... but there is a good argument for Loper's point about the .22 rimfire... in all its variants.

Great discussion.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[ksthomas]

At the very least, they deserve to get credit for the S&W patent for the bored-through cylinder. This makes at least some sort of claim for their being the origin of all modern revolvers. Have to check my chronology here, but I believe they may be the parent of virtually all rimfire cartridges that came afterwards, and were a strong line during the early days of metallic cartridge evolution.

 

[hrfunk]

Other than the obvious difference in the shape of the bullets, I'm not sure I can draw a distinction between the BB, CB, and .22 Short cartridges.

HRF

 

[kytrapper]

Sihr correct.............the date I found on the .22 bb cap is 1845............ I just opt for the first cartridge chambered in a repeating rifle...........and it was made in USA........seems like it was a busy time full on some smart minds..............

 

[hrfunk]

After just a bit of research, it appears the original Flobert BB/CB caps were propelled by the priming compound alone. It wasn't until the cartridge we now know as the .22 Short came along that a propellant charge was added to the case. If that's correct, I stand by my original assertion that the .22 short was the first self-contained ammunition cartridge that was composed of all four components that have comprised every metallic cartridge that followed.

HRF

 

[majvret]

I agree with kraigWY. The mine' ball changed everything from a smooth bore round ball to the significantly more effective rifled musket. This was the predecessor of everything mentioned.

 

[jbell]

This is a very interesting thread. I have read it up to this point and there have been some very good points made for sure. But the question I keep asking myself is: What is the most Historically Significant Cartridge? (does this mean historically significant for cartridge development or "world history"). I keep thinking that one cartridge may be the my pick for both: 30-06. Why you may ask? Well in terms of cartridge development, how may other cartridges have been based off or have roots stemming from the 30-06? Way more than I care to list here but I would venture a guess and say that more cartridges have gotten their start from the 06 than any other. In terms of impact of world history given all the action the 30-06 and its spin offs have been involved in. It has been a MAJOR player in every conflict since its creation and is still in heavy use, hell the 50BMG is nothing more than a scaled up 06...

Interesting to think about, thanks for getting me thinking...

 

[hrfunk]

The fun part of these threads is that the interpretation of "Most Historically Influential" is left to each individual. I greatly enjoy seeing how each person makes his/her own decision, then puts forth their most compelling argument to reinforce that decision. The knowledge of history and firearms demonstrated in these threads is tremendous. I hope you are all enjoying them as much as I am.

HRF

 

[PAGhillie]

45-70, 30-40krag, 30-06, for US
7.62x54 for Europe

 

[hrfunk]

You gotta choose one, and state why.

HRF

 

[pawprint2]

There is no question in mind the answer is the 22lr. I agree100% with the previous posters that have given the reasons why. Look at how long it has been around, how many guns sold each year are chambered for it, and HOW MANY rounds are loaded and fired, the numbers absolutely dwarf all others. In fact, there is nothing else even close, though out several eras of history. For center fire rounds, the 30-06 would be my choice. Kept the free world free, free enough to develop other rounds. It kept the commie world commie and allowed them to develop other rounds. As we (the Allies) in WWII couldn't give enough ammo, food, ships, planes, factories etc. to the Communists in Russia they were able not to be defeated by the Nazi's, and we able to develop the 7.62x39-a victory for the 30-06. So far as the French rounds go, be realistic, on paper is one thing in combat, or lack there of is another. Remember, we are discussing History, not paper results, or in free world testing etc., but in the real world, the 30-06 defeated the Axis powers-the 50 BMG would be my second choice-again based on real world history (ammo for small arms).

 

[cattle buyer]

My vote is 30-06 hands down, followed by .50 BMG, then .45, .22lr . very best

 

[cobaltbomb]

wich one killed the most people, that is a good measure for significance
was it the 7.62x54, 7.62x39, 8mm Mauser , 9mm para or maybe the 22lr ?