What makes a good "defensive" levergun?

#103
sirhrmechanic said:
Before you guys get too hard on the OP... remember that our HMFWIC @Lowlight was Jonesing for a tactical lever gun.

Hey, maybe it's not the best for self defense... but if you want one, have at it! As long as it's not taking food off the table or detracting from the mortgage payment, have at it and enjoy.

Of course, we may still make fun of you. But never let others dictate what you think is cool, fun and worthy.

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS If one of you makes fun of my Russian Imperial belt-fed Maxim that is mounted on ski's... we'll have words!
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Oh yeah? My Mossberg 590A1 SPX 12 ga has a lug to accept the bayonet that came with it. Good for feral hog hunting. Run out of ammo and keep stabbing. Then take it off the lug and field dress the beast.
 
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#106
IMG_5112.jpeg
 
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#109
Daddyusmaximus said:
I've seen several threads (on several forums) about leverguns here of late, all centered around modernizing them for "defensive" or "tactical" use.

I love lever guns.
Like all red blooded American boys, I grew up watching westerns. I wanted to be the "good guy" who would grow up to go get the "bad guy".
Still a levergun has no role in tactical use. Just my honest opinion. I've been to war. Sorry, (not sorry) I want my AR.

Now defensive use... that's a different story altogether. Now were talking the old "good guy V bad guy" type deal.
If the role of the weapon is to protect yourself and you family from criminals in a home defense role... now we're talking about an application where the old cowboy gun can still work.

So... let's talk about what MAKES a good "defensive" levergun.
Opinions, and insights welcome... just don't be an ass about it.


IMHO first consideration is caliber.

The two that shine above all others today are the .357 & .44 Magnums. These are in potent handgun calibers. They really smoke out of a carbine barrel, gaining quite a bit of velocity. Sure, a hunting round like 30-30 or 45/70, are more powerful, but being so also means they're designed for game. Sometimes LARGE game. Real good chance (damn near sure thing) they'll zip right through your average bad guy at defensive ranges.
That's what were talking about here for a "defensive" weapon.... Shooting at bad guys. (in other words, people) If you have to protect yourself from a criminal... it's not all that likely to happen on an empty mountain somewhere. It will be at home. (where ever that may be)
As said, the .357 & .44 Magnums are both potent handgun calibers, and they both gain velocity when fired through a carbine length barrel. The bullets, designed for handguns, (not talking hard cast hunting loads) will expand violently, dumping ALL their increased energy INTO the target. This rapid expansion most often also limits penetration to around 14 to 16 inches or so making the chances of shooting through so many walls less. That expansion, however, creates devastating wound channels. And yeah, you can still hunt deer sized game with them. (Though I wouldn't try it at 3oo yds)


Another consideration is ammo capacity. (you can never have too much right?) First thing... a levergun isn't even in the same ballpark as an AR. You don't get 30 rounds per mag, with very quick mag changes. Not only that, but the longer, more hunting oriented rounds like 30-30 & 45/70 vastly limit your already small magazine capacity. Capacity that is not only already limited, but that requires a lot more training to get fast with on reloading... than does an AR. Again, the magnum handgun rounds for the win.


Sights.

Ok, here again, us being levergun fans (or people living is less free states) are starting off behind the curve right outta the gate. Being a very old design, typical levergun iron sights leave a lot to be desired. If you don't want to add an optic, at least consider upgrading to a set of quality peep sights from one of the aftermarket companies now making products for our rifles.

Red dots. Being the author of this particular thread, and a combat veteran who somehow (by the grace of God) survived multiple combat tours (the last one getting pretty sporty at times) I'm just gonna come out and say it...
GET A RED DOT.

OK, sure, if your rifle is for multiple use, a LPVO may be a better choice. You can see the target better at range, and still have 1x (plus an illuminated reticule in most cases) for close in defensive duty. Thing is, a LPVO is still a "scope". That means it will still have "scope shadow" if you mount the gun wrong because your live is on the line, and you might just be freaking out a bit and rushing things. Or maybe you're hiding behind cover firing from some awkward shooting position, and can't get your head just right behind the scope. The eyebox on a scope will NEVER be as forgiving as that of a red dot. The newer ones are good, and theire getting better all the time, but there is still NOTHING... that is faster at target acquisition, than a red dot.
If it's a "defensive" rifle... get a red dot for it.


Weapon mounted light.

Lots of pros & cons people talk (argue) about when it comes to having a weapon mounted light on a handgun... but for a rifle...
Just put a light on it.
Takes both hands to shoot most rifles, (that is how they're designed after all) and it takes the both to run a levergun action, unless you dismount the gun between shots. Hand held lights just aren't gonna work here. Oh, and yes... you do need a light. Bad guys tend to like night time, or dark places. Besides, the planet is spinning so it's dark half the time anyhow.


On gun ammo.

Magazine capacity is ,as we've said, limited. Even with the shorted handgun rounds, you may be starting out with 9 or 10 rounds loaded... Now, for most defensive shootings, that's plenty.
Plenty unless there's multiple attackers perhaps...
Plenty unless & until you start missing the bad guys...
Good chance you will too. Especially when you're scared, mad, or both, and maybe you just got woke up at 3am to boot.
I've got multiple war deployments behind me, and can attest to the fact that I missed... a lot more than I hit.
Have a way to store some extra rounds on the gun be it an old school leather ammo cuff, one of the new styles (and ugly as sin) buttstocks, or what I did, just put the velcro ammo cards on them like you see on shotguns. These can be ordered in pistol calibers as well. 1o in the gun, 10 more on the stock makes for 20 rounds available just grab and go. If I have time to grab an extra ammo card, that's 10 more I can slap on when these are gone.


Here's my pick. (that I pray I never have to use)
A Chiappa 1892 takedown in .44 Magnum. (I also have a Rossi 92 in .357 Mag, but I like this one better.
First, it's a .44 Mag.
Secondly, it's a takedown, so it can go in a bag with me, hidden away from prying eyes to a hotel room when traveling.

View attachment 8210261
Lever guns are still great.

Discuss...
I mean it... Let's discuss.
I'm no certified expert. (though the wife may think I'm "certifiable" at times)
I don't work for Hornady or Chiappa.
Just throwing my thoughts and what I've learned out there.

Oh, and I meant to say discuss or GTFO... LOL.
If you don't feel a levergun makes a good defensive weapon... this is not the thread for you.
(that's what I meant by "don't be an ass about it" back at the top)
I hate it when people shit on a thread.
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Lever guns are loads of fun. 30-30 still one of my favorites.
 
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#110
Fig said:
You can have whatever you want in your home. Why cripple yourself with antique technology when your life and the lives of your family are on the line?

Lever guns were employed in the Civil War as a new superweapon, but they quickly found out they were too fragile for warfare, and after that they were never employed in any numbers.

Now there are just so many people in America that it's inevitable some will go
View attachment 8210391

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Are you kidding? They were used for 100+ years across the western US in both war and outside of it. They served very well in that capacity.
 
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#111
Lever actions (Winchester 1895 chambered in 7.62x54R) were sent to Russia for WWI, however, they were not up to the task of trench warfare. Too much mud and muck for their action. And, they make firing from prone more cumbersome that a bolt action.

Also, the early toggle link action wasn’t strong enough for high pressure cartridges. This may have spawned a myth that the action is weak, though the Winchester 1895 was designed for high pressure cartridges and chambered for 30-06, 7.62x54R, and others.

But, during the US westward expansion and settlement- where “warfare” amounted to short but intense skirmishes- “that damned Henry rifle (and descendants), that you load on Sunday and shoot all week” was king.

Is it obsolete? Yeah, pretty much anything that is not semi-auto is obsolete for HD, SD, or combat today.
 
#112
I build and shoot flintlock long-rifles, and I have a 1765 English, heavy, dragoon pistol in .60 cal. Love them, and love to shoot them. It’s a whole other thing.
If a bad guy(s) is coming in my house I’m going to have a hi-cap pistol and/or an AR in my hand. I’ll take and use every advantage available to me when everything is on the line. Disadvantaging yourself in a life and death situation because of nostalgia doesn’t seem smart to me. If a lever gun is all you have it’ll certainly do, but for me that’s a deer hunting gun for the woods and not much more (Yellowstone not withstanding). To each his own.
I have a .45 LC, Ruger, SA Vaquero, with a trench sight, I shoot really well. I‘m probably am more accurate with that on the range than the FNX, but the FNX with a reflex is in the nightstand. IMO you stack the deck with every advantage you can before there is an engagement, remove any disadvantages if possible, and fight as unfairly as possible, preferably attacking from ambush at their rear, and/or call for fire. Defense of home isn’t a hobby. It’s an obligation.
 
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#114
Tactical leverguns are a thing now, maybe because of cowboy action shooting? I would rather have pretty much any kind of pistol for home defense tbh.

MtnGhost said:
This video comment wins ..

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One of the local gunstores has a huge tub full of old holsters and one is a cowboy belt rig in I think 48" that the customer returned because it was too tight, another one I can think of was the guy who made my holster talking about a 56" customer who wanted his belt longer, cowboy shooters are not high speed/low drag.
 
#115
Fig said:
I build and shoot flintlock long-rifles, and I have a 1765 English, heavy, dragoon pistol in .60 cal. Love them, and love to shoot them. It’s a whole other thing.
If a bad guy(s) is coming in my house I’m going to have a hi-cap pistol and/or an AR in my hand. I’ll take and use every advantage available to me when everything is on the line. Disadvantaging yourself in a life and death situation because of nostalgia doesn’t seem smart to me. If a lever gun is all you have it’ll certainly do, but for me that’s a deer hunting gun for the woods and not much more (Yellowstone not withstanding). To each his own.
I have a .45 LC, Ruger, SA Vaquero, with a trench sight, I shoot really well. I‘m probably am more accurate with that on the range than the FNX, but the FNX with a reflex is in the nightstand. IMO you stack the deck with every advantage you can before there is an engagement, remove any disadvantages if possible, and fight as unfairly as possible, preferably attacking from ambush at their rear, and/or call for fire. Defense of home isn’t a hobby. It’s an obligation.
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You are no fun.
You'll never be the coolest dude in the graveyard, with your attitude, mister.
 
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#116
mcameron said:
What if you are a cowboy action shooter and have 1million rounds through SAA and lever guns? And hardy any through ARs or polymer guns? Are they still foolish for choosing a lever gun for home defense?
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No, they are foolish for using loads that will bounce a bullet off a wet tissue.
 
#118
TheChief said:
Are you kidding? They were used for 100+ years across the western US in both war and outside of it. They served very well in that capacity.
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They’re probably better than a bolt from horseback. Conceded.
mcameron said:
Regarding using "antiquated" guns...meh.

So unless you are using a gen 5 Glock MOS with an red dot, light, front slide serrations and extended mags, you are putting your life at risk?

What if I'm carrying a gen 3 Glock? A 1911? Or *ghasp* ....a revolver!

At what point am I "putting my life at risk"?

What if you are a cowboy action shooter and have 1million rounds through SAA and lever guns? And hardy any through ARs or polymer guns? Are they still foolish for choosing a lever gun for home defense?

Hell, I've heard stories of Olympic shooters fending off home intruders with single shot .22 pistols.


I've always been of the opinion that so long as your gun is reliable, and you train with it......your choice of gun really doesn't matter.....I'm not aware of anyone who was involved in a home intrusion who was killed because of their choice of gun.

Hell, that recent escaped convict was driven off with a .25 Saturday night special.
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I never said you were “risking your life”, even if you just have a knife it’s better to weapon up, period. What I quite clearly said is that if you plan to resist against a home invasion and be in a gunfight not of your making it behooves you to bring the mostest the firstest and to fight as unfairly as possible. I have a couple of dozen lever guns and I like them and like shooting them. I don‘t play cowboy action, but I know that on the lever gun stages you can’t use an AR or a sub gun with a reflex sigh, because it WOULDN‘T BE FAIR. A gunfight is not a game, and the only rule is there are no rules. What I said was to fight unfair. If I could I’d take my family out the back door as they came in the front and call in an air strike as they were collecting my valuables I would…I’ve got insurance.
 
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#123
Hlee said " No, they are foolish for using loads that will bounce a bullet off a wet tissue."


Let's find out. Your wet tissue against my .357 lever. You would be described a s a gear queer with no actual life experience.
 
#126
sirhrmechanic said:
Just brought this bad boy home... .70 Caliber. Or lots of roofing nails.

View attachment 8211302

I own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.

^^^ No I didn't write that...

Sirhr
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Load it with lego bricks. Even if you miss, no one will be manoeuvring in on you without a broom.
 
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#127
mcameron said:
So my odds of winning are better in a car I don't know how to drive?

I don't even know who I'm racing.....could be a 1 legged guy on foot....my Honda civic should be more than sufficient.

If Mario andretti shows up in an F1 car, then yeah I'm fucked......but i would be fucked in the funny car also if i cant drive it......and hell, mario could have a bad day
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What if im on horseback, with boots, hat, spurs, and you come rolling in your POS 1990 civic looking to start some shit? Lever gun or no lever gun?
 
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