Gunsmithing What makes a lathe good?

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GasLight

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May 2, 2008
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#1
Just finished up my beginner machining class, and now that I feel like I understand the functions and how to operate the machines, I am curious what makes a good lathe or a bad lathe? I have heard much opinion on import, especially chinese, but am not sure I quite understand what makes one better than the other?

Is it the backlash on the feed screws? Is it the ability to trust the incriments on the feed handles? Is it the flatness of the ways? Just wanting to get a grasp on what I need to look for in a used lathe vs a cheaper new one.

Thanks for any help and opinions!

Dave
 
#2
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Dave,

You have a handle on part of it. The quality of the metal used in the castings is of great importance. Back in the mid 1980s one of the first import lathes I operated had a chunk broken out of the near carriage way on the right end. The person working on the machine when it broke said it wasn't hit by that heavy of an object. (Fork lift operator got too close and a part fell from a pallet and struck the lathe. 50 pound part [I'm guessing here] fell a little over a foot. She was turned crossways between two lathes trying to put the pallet in a storage rack.)

I remember the cross section that was visible looked like the metal was very porous.

On the dials… I have a habit. If it moves put an indicator on it. Especially the cross feeds. When you’re going from machine to machine, you don’t have to remember if the dial reads 1:1 or 2:1 reading against the OD / ID.

Put a longer piece of stock (several inches sticking out) in the chuck and make a light cut the full length that you can. Measure the OD at several places along the length. It should read the same dimension all the way from one spot for the entire length that was turned. Irregularities in the ways of the bed will cause differences in the measurements.

Most machines are adjustable to get at least part of the backlash taken care of. Bigger companies have maintenance contracts to mechanics to tighten the gibs and keep everything tight. If you don’t know what you’re doing, leave the machine adjustments alone. Unauthorized adjustments can get you fired on the spot. If the machine is yours, be sure to read the maintenance part of the owner’s manual 2 or 3 times before actually working on it. And follow the maker’s instructions to the “T”.

A lot of the newer imports are of very repeatable quality.

Cut yourself a piece of plywood to cover the ways when you change chucks / faceplate. Also cut some pieces of cardboard to cover the ways EVERY time you polish a part. Mark the side that goes up. If the back side gets abrasives on it throw it away and get another. Abrasives on the ways will eat machines accuracy in almost no time flat.

Good luck with your choice.
 
#3
Re: What makes a lathe good?

I can't add too much to Victor post because he's pretty spot on. I would like to stress the importance of a good indicator when using even a good lathe.An indicator on a magnetic base can make things so much simpler in the long run.You'll never have to worry about how much slop is in the feed screws.
 
#4
Re: What makes a lathe good?

This morning I am thinking one that will not crash would be a good one.
Last night I was cleaning up some internal threads in a piece of aluminum turning the chuck by hand. Finished, everything looked great ran the cross slide in backed the tool out by turning the chuck backwards and reached to grab halfnut to disengage it. I grabbed the power handle instead. It was only under power for a split second but it was long enough for the momentum to crash my internal threading tool into my workpiece. I gotta start getting more sleep, and stay out of the shop while groggy.
I can't figure out why I stood there paralyzed instead of stomping the brake. Nothing was broken except an insert and as crashes go it was a fender bender but it still sucked.
 
#5
Re: What makes a lathe good?

eddybo , just remember that those inserts are cheap , a whole lot cheaper than a crushed finger or hand. That damned foot brake is never close enough when you need it and you never think about it till the whole event is over.

A good lathe uses quality taperd bearings , the bed ways are strait and tight , the screws and gibs are adjustable when some wear does set in. Its a rigid as possible. Reliability in the dials is nice but I always setup a dial indicator just for added insurance.
Jet and a couple other "cheaper" lathes get a bad rap , granted if your putting one into a steady processing shop it likely won't last accuratly as long as say a LeBlond , Bridgport or Nardini but for the gunsmith a bigger Jet is realy hard to beat

You can get some supprising good quality work from a "cheaper" lathe as long as some care is taken
 
#6
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Bigger is not better. A 10" is just fine for smith work. Spindle hole needs to be at least 1.5". 36" bed is fine. Southbend made a perfect 10" lathe that fit the gunsmith criteria. If you find one that is a two lever model and accepts 5c collets, check it out. These have a 1.5" spindle bore, belt driven center spindle step pulleys, and are Old School USA made high quality.

Some used lathes will have grooves worn in the ways close to the spindle due to repetitive movements. Stay clear of them as this will cause irregular cuts as the carriage dips down in the grooves.

Most lathes are not well suited to smith work as you need a large spindle hole and a short spindle length.
 
#7
Re: What makes a lathe good?

So with everything stated above, what would be your ideal beginner gunsmith lathe. I want something that I won't quickly out-grow, but that isn't over kill at the same time.

What has great quality, an appropriate headstock length and bore, and enough size and stability to do the work without spending a bunch of extra money for size I don't need.

Dave
 
#8
Re: What makes a lathe good?

If I hadn't just bought a big Jet I would get the larger grizzly gunsmithing lathe. A buddy of mine whose opinion I respect a lot was impressed with a new one at shot.
 
#9
Re: What makes a lathe good?

in my opinion, if you don't have the patience to wait for a good used old american lathe to come along or don't know what to look for when you find one, you are better off with a new import. if you look into what it costs to have a worn out bed scraped, you see where i'm coming from. many parts are still available for old lathes but they are expensive.

if you decide to go new import, the grizzly g4003g sounds hard to beat for the price. i have not seen one in person but it has some great features. all the reviews i have heard have also been good. i think i may have even seen reviews here in the past.
 
#10
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:snip: I currently have a 12x36 Craftsman/Atlas which is fairly accurate and although you cannot chamber in the chuck because the spindle hole is only 27/32" I like chambering/threading between centers anyways. :snip:</div></div>

i had a 12x36 craftsman/atlas but ran out of room and couldn't justify keeping it. i didn't want to get rid of it because it was so cool. i spent a lot of time restoring it. it was in excellent physical condition but the paint was in bad shape from being in a barn for years. i know it is not the most rigid machine and the rectangle bed ways are not as good as vee ways but out of curiosity, how does it do for barrel work with a steady rest?

here is a before and after restoration picture of my old craftsman/atlas:

lathecompare.jpg
 
#11
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Thanks for all the input, this is such a hard decision, trying to find the right lathe in my budget LOL... I am still looking and not really in a hurry.

300, it sure looks like you did an awesome job on the restoration. I have seen some that look horrible when they are repainted, but yours looks very professional!

DD
 
#13
Re: What makes a lathe good?

that is a very nice craftsman/atlas you have there! mine wasn't the under cabinet drive and i wished it was. i think i paid about $600 for mine with a large and small 3 jaw chuck, large and small 4 jaw chuck, steady and follower rests and a milling attachment. after all the work i put into it, i sold it for $1750 before i even got a chance to run it. i have no doubt you could get more than that for yours if you did decide to sell it, especially if you weren't in a hurry.
 
#14
Re: What makes a lathe good?

If you want to look at a real working lathe, look up a South Bend flat belt 10". I used one through most of my tool maker apprenticeship. They are well made and about the right size. And you can usually find a good deal if you look real good. There is a lot of tooling designed for this size and type.

Yes I'm more than a little partial to them.
 
#16
Re: What makes a lathe good?

+1000 on everything that has been said
One thing to keep in mind, is that with a good used lathe, you may get a fair amount of tooling that you would have to buy with a new lathe....

The really cheap harbor freight stuff is just a waste of time...
I have used some jet's and they are pretty nice, but not near as confidence inspiring as a southbend/monarch/hardinge/clausing...

I waited and was able to pick up a clausing varispeed 14 x 40
this lathe is a bit large and requires 3 phase.
(I built a rotary 3 phase converter for about $150)
but the price was right, and it isn't worn out...

Maybe more experienced folks can chime in,
but a machinist I worked with gave me a tip when looking at a used lathe.....

take the carriage close to the headstock...
adjust the gib enough that you feel a light drag when you move the carriage......
try to run the carriage to the tailstock,
if it binds/locks up,
it gives you a feel for how much it has been used and in what range of the bed....


Andy
 
#17
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:snip: I currently have a 12x36 Craftsman/Atlas which is fairly accurate and although you cannot chamber in the chuck because the spindle hole is only 27/32" I like chambering/threading between centers anyways. :snip:</div></div>

i had a 12x36 craftsman/atlas but ran out of room and couldn't justify keeping it. i didn't want to get rid of it because it was so cool. i spent a lot of time restoring it. it was in excellent physical condition but the paint was in bad shape from being in a barn for years. i know it is not the most rigid machine and the rectangle bed ways are not as good as vee ways but out of curiosity, how does it do for barrel work with a steady rest?

here is a before and after restoration picture of my old craftsman/atlas:

lathecompare.jpg
</div></div>
looks awesome to me
 
#18
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">:snip: I currently have a 12x36 Craftsman/Atlas which is fairly accurate and although you cannot chamber in the chuck because the spindle hole is only 27/32" I like chambering/threading between centers anyways. :snip:</div></div>

i had a 12x36 craftsman/atlas but ran out of room and couldn't justify keeping it. i didn't want to get rid of it because it was so cool. i spent a lot of time restoring it. it was in excellent physical condition but the paint was in bad shape from being in a barn for years. i know it is not the most rigid machine and the rectangle bed ways are not as good as vee ways but out of curiosity, how does it do for barrel work with a steady rest?

here is a before and after restoration picture of my old craftsman/atlas:

lathecompare.jpg
</div></div>

While mine wasn't a gem when I got it I only pd $600 + tax at an estate auction. It had 3 chucks, faceplate, milling attachment, steady, follow, and most everthing needed as far as small tooling. Bed wear ahead of headstock was .005-.008. There was some parts etc for a toolpost grinder and I think that was the cause of much of the bed wear but couldn't confirm as owner was deceased. My before wasn't as bad as yours but the after is near identical. The bed I bought off fleabay was supposed to be original and 98% condition. When it arrived it had 5/16" machined off inside of each way so headstock casting wouldn't fit as originally designed. I used keystock and roll pins to replace the part of the way machined out and designed a different bracket to bolt into front of headstock etc. Seller claimed he would refund 80% of my money if I pd another $80 for return shipping, bastard. I thought I was screwed but after some thought etc made it work out ok. Also gearbox casting had eggshaped hole for upper shaft I assume from lack of oiling. I bought a new casting, new threading chart plate, new leade screw etc. Looks like a new one now and I have about $1600 into it. I know I can get my money back on it.

I have chambered and threaded 13 barrels on it and rechambered or setback probably 15 more at least. The worst runout I had on a chamber was .0015ish and was found to be from some questionable steel and the egg shaping was determined by Kiff, Krieger(not their barrel blank) and John King of Kila, MT who redid brothers barrel because his had same issues and was done by a different smith. I did mine and while it shoots super you cannot run full max loads because of extraction issues. The other chambers are all around .0005 runout on a fired case. Sure many will think .0005 is the work of a rookie but I have been satisfied with my obtainable accuracy and have many p dogs, coyotes etc who CANNOT verify they don't shoot.LOL

The Craftsman/Atlas sure isn't for 'commercial' production even though it claims so on the name plate but overall is a descent light duty hobby machine. I made all the Wichita bipod swivel studs on it etc. I should sell it but like you I just cannot seem to think of NOT having it around but I don't need 2 either. The milling attachment etc comes in handy at times for light duty tinkering.

Here are a couple of shitty pics, which I am known for
smile.gif



SouthBendHvy10lathe005.jpg

SouthBendHvy10lathe001.jpg
</div></div>
oh i don't know about that ( shitty pics ) i saw one of your pics and fell in love
hahahaha hey swirlwind nice lathe's
 
#19
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Dave i would say that one of those old southbend is a great starter lathe if you find one in good shape. Those things were super accurate. We have the larger grizzly gunsmith lathe and its a really good lathe. One of the smaller ones like the g4003g would be ok but i cant say enough about how good ours works for the 7k price tag. Anything nardini is usually top notch too.
 
#20
Re: What makes a lathe good?

I have the Grizzly 4003G and really like it. It will do everything I need it to do. Bonus-----free shipping from Grizzly right now.

I have the G3103 mill. I have no complaint about it other than it is a bit on the small size. The next mill will be bigger.

Be prepared to drop a lot of coin on tooling. I like to buy mine as much as possible from Grizzly, because they eat a lot of the costs of shipping.

Have fun with whichever lathe you buy. If you have a full time missus, be prepared for her to get jealous over your new mistress, as you will be spending a lot of quality time with it.
wink.gif
 
#22
Re: What makes a lathe good?

All,
I'm heavily considering the Grizzly G0492, 12x 36 combination mill/lathe. Can anyone give me advice as to yea/nay? I'm looking more for the value/quality aspect, and also need to know if I can put a spider on the outfeed.

Many thanks,

Powdermonkey
 
#24
Re: What makes a lathe good?

I have a 12x36 Atlas, and a Grizzly mini lathe.
I just sold my Clausing 12x36.

I just ordered a Precision Mathews PM1236 with DRO.

Buying a lathe is like getting married:
a) It is a long term commitment.
b) It costs allot of money.
c) There are expensive accessories.
d) It takes up allot of space.
e) It makes noise.
f) It is allot of trouble to move in or move out.
g) If you have been working in the chamber you will need to take a shower afterwards, because that cutting oil stinks.


I was happy to be able to afford to divorce my Clausing and upgrade to a younger lathe.
I am cleaning up the shop in preparation for the arrival. This is the honeymoon phase.
 
#25
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cant say enough about a big bridgeport mill either. </div></div>

+1...

My turn to agree with you.
 
#26
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
I'm heavily considering the Grizzly G0492, 12x 36 combination mill/lathe. Can anyone give me advice as to yea/nay? I'm looking more for the value/quality aspect, and also need to know if I can put a spider on the outfeed.

Many thanks,

Powdermonkey </div></div>

You may be impressed in the beginning,
but sooner or later you will wish you had upgraded,
popular quote on this site...
" buy once....cry once"
 
#27
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Thanks for the input so far. I definately agree that if my ideas on manufacturing some stuff pan out, I'll want to upgrade. If I could find a Bridgeport for a reasonable price in reasonable shape, I'd likely bite on it. My dad had a 9" Southbend, purchased in 1945. The spindle bore is smaller than an inch, as I recall somewhere around 0.960. I've tried to profile a douglas .22 barrel on the thing, but the steady rest was not up to the task. I may bring that lathe south some day and take the slop out of it. However, it still ain't the best for barrel work.

While I can say I'm not "planning" on turning anything heavy, well, I know what kind of statement that is. I likely won't want to resurface a smallblock head on the Grizzly, but I think I'll be able to do a good bit of gunsmith work.

My only problem with the thing: It ain't American. I really, really want something like this combo unit, but don't know if anyone in the US makes similar for the price. Anybody know??
 
#28
Re: What makes a lathe good?

everyone i have talked to with a combo lathe/mill wishes thy just got a lathe and a separate mill, even if it was a small round column mill/drill. i hear there was to many compromises made to fit it all that neither function works as good as thy could separate.
 
#29
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the input so far. I definately agree that if my ideas on manufacturing some stuff pan out, I'll want to upgrade. If I could find a Bridgeport for a reasonable price in reasonable shape, I'd likely bite on it. My dad had a 9" Southbend, purchased in 1945. The spindle bore is smaller than an inch, as I recall somewhere around 0.960. I've tried to profile a douglas .22 barrel on the thing, but the steady rest was not up to the task. I may bring that lathe south some day and take the slop out of it. However, it still ain't the best for barrel work.

While I can say I'm not "planning" on turning anything heavy, well, I know what kind of statement that is. I likely won't want to resurface a smallblock head on the Grizzly, but I think I'll be able to do a good bit of gunsmith work.

My only problem with the thing: It ain't American. I really, really want something like this combo unit, but don't know if anyone in the US makes similar for the price. Anybody know?? </div></div>

Yes they made some that had a larger spindle bore in them and i would agree with you that contouring is not for them. But they chamber and do close up chuck work very well for the age that they are now.
 
#30
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the input so far. I definately agree that if my ideas on manufacturing some stuff pan out, I'll want to upgrade. If I could find a Bridgeport for a reasonable price in reasonable shape, I'd likely bite on it. My dad had a 9" Southbend, purchased in 1945. The spindle bore is smaller than an inch, as I recall somewhere around 0.960. I've tried to profile a douglas .22 barrel on the thing, but the steady rest was not up to the task. I may bring that lathe south some day and take the slop out of it. However, it still ain't the best for barrel work.

While I can say I'm not "planning" on turning anything heavy, well, I know what kind of statement that is. I likely won't want to resurface a smallblock head on the Grizzly, but I think I'll be able to do a good bit of gunsmith work.

My only problem with the thing: It ain't American. I really, really want something like this combo unit, but don't know if anyone in the US makes similar for the price. Anybody know??</div></div>

Here is another thought maybe, if you are only going to be doing a very small amount of work to start with, why not pick up a used lathe and get a milling attachment for it? Then you have somewhat of a combo machine, but as your needs increase, you can get a nicer verticle mill. This way you could get a decent lathe up front and not have to worry about being in a situation where you have to sell a combo unit and buy two seperate units down the line, or having to settle with the combo unit as a lathe or mill when you upgrade the other... if that makes any sense

DD
 
#31
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Good advice. I fell for the combo several years ago. That thing frustrated the hell out of me. Now that I have a decent lathe and mill I am always wondering what the hell I was thinking everytime I walk past that old combo taking up space.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DebosDave</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the input so far. I definately agree that if my ideas on manufacturing some stuff pan out, I'll want to upgrade. If I could find a Bridgeport for a reasonable price in reasonable shape, I'd likely bite on it. My dad had a 9" Southbend, purchased in 1945. The spindle bore is smaller than an inch, as I recall somewhere around 0.960. I've tried to profile a douglas .22 barrel on the thing, but the steady rest was not up to the task. I may bring that lathe south some day and take the slop out of it. However, it still ain't the best for barrel work.

While I can say I'm not "planning" on turning anything heavy, well, I know what kind of statement that is. I likely won't want to resurface a smallblock head on the Grizzly, but I think I'll be able to do a good bit of gunsmith work.

My only problem with the thing: It ain't American. I really, really want something like this combo unit, but don't know if anyone in the US makes similar for the price. Anybody know??</div></div>

Here is another thought maybe, if you are only going to be doing a very small amount of work to start with, why not pick up a used lathe and get a milling attachment for it? Then you have somewhat of a combo machine, but as your needs increase, you can get a nicer verticle mill. This way you could get a decent lathe up front and not have to worry about being in a situation where you have to sell a combo unit and buy two seperate units down the line, or having to settle with the combo unit as a lathe or mill when you upgrade the other... if that makes any sense

DD </div></div>
 
#32
Re: What makes a lathe good?

I think there is something to be said for a lathe, or mill for that matter, that has some weight to it. I also like a chuck that has some weight to it, I think their rolling mass makes for a smoother cut but that is just theory. I have not talked to anyone who was happy with the combo machines or would buy one again. You would probably be better off putting that money into the one machine you think will do you the most good and save money for the other later on. If you are mainly going to be working on guns, I would think that a good lathe would be your best bet since most of what you would machine on a rifle would be done with a lathe. A knee mill is good for making "parts" in general. When you get both of them there isn't much that you can't make. On another note...Don't get a lathe that is too big for what you want to do. Don't ask me how I know that or why I have to suck in my gut when I walk around my garage.
 
#33
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Good stuff, here. One of the things that immediately hits me is to get enough, if not more machine, than you might originally think you need. I went through "mill shoppers anxiety" bigtime when I started pistolsmithing and wisely listened to people I trusted - one of whom was a good enough machinist to probably turn barrels with a fan motor, plastic spoons & a roll of duct tape- no shit!
The thing he beat into my head was that rigidity and repeatability is key. I toyed with getting a combo jobbie and he kept telling me to get separate machines - bigger than I thought I needed. I'm glad he did. I ended up with an older 11x54 Beaver knee mill - I believe it was made in UK (don't really know). I did slap a Kurt Angle Lock on it(and another tip- buy the best vise you can possibly afford), and even though there were a couple of dings in the table at the extreme left end of it & it LOOKED old- the thing was SUPER accurate and perfect for what I needed. Even though I got it with the intention of doing pistol stuff only - I swear it wasn't a week after I got it before I got a job to port a shotgun barrel....which led to barrel fluting.......which led to you-name-it...... So what I'm thinking is that once you get up and running, you will NEVER run short of projects to use ALL of your machine's capabilities!
Funny thing, too - I also acquired a Craftsman/Atlas 12x36, which I restored. Unfortunately don't have pics, and I didn't do the sweet cosmetic work these guys did.
Obviously, I don't have a problem with used stuff IF I can inspect it beforehand (ie, bring a box of indicators and "go to town"). For new stuff? I have heard nothing but good stuff about the 4003G and its big brother (and as soon as I decide what to unload to get one, I will have it). If you want to go import on a mill, I would also look at the Enco/Turnpro. The very first mill I worked on was an Enco variable speed and it really was a decent mill for the money. There are numerous options available - I'm just trying to offer my .02 on what $ range I THINK you are lookin' at. Good luck in your search, and feel free to post pics of whatever you acquire! Be careful, this shit is addictive.
 
#34
Re: What makes a lathe good?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
I'm heavily considering the Grizzly G0492, 12x 36 combination mill/lathe. Can anyone give me advice as to yea/nay? I'm looking more for the value/quality aspect, and also need to know if I can put a spider on the outfeed.

Many thanks,

Powdermonkey </div></div>

The Harbor Freight 12x36, Grizzly 12x36, and Precision Mathews 12x36 all have ~ 80% interchangeable parts.

The Harbor freight is cheaper.
The PM and Grizz are both $3k delivered and come with great service.

The Grizz has a spider.

The PM has knob change gears, upgraded bearings, up graded relays, and I could get it with DRO.

So I'll make another spider, and I went with the PM, but there is very little difference between that and the Grizz.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300jcc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I also acquired a Craftsman/Atlas 12x36, which I restored. </div></div>

I acquired a 12x36 Atlas when my friend died.
I have barrelled a 300WinMag, a 270, (3) .308s, (2) 243s, and a 6mmBR on that little 350 pound lathe.

The hole through the spindle is so small, it only takes very tapered barrels. Fat barrels must go in the steady rest.

Allot can be done on the lathe, but it takes more time and skill.

The 1200 pound 12x36 lathes with horse power will make life easier.
 
#35
Re: What makes a lathe good?

Great advice. After a weekends worth of poking my fingers around the internet, I see the Precision Mathews is one nice setup. We're going to punch that button. Ray-Ray--- Yes you can use it too. Same with you Shakey. Swamp can too, as long as he reads this post... Lex is a definate, and Justin if he ain't too busy boggin.

Thanks all. After reading a bunch, I see the prior errors in my ways (no pun intended). Anybody got a mill for sale? I'm going to make something, and you're all gonna like it.
 
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