-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Fieldcraft What Makes a Sniper
- Thread starter Slafav
- Start date
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No thanks, I dont care to read your book</div></div>
Didn't think so. </div></div>
I have no idea what your problem is. I dont care about your book. Doesnt have anything to do with this thread and it definately wont change my opinion.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No thanks, I dont care to read your book</div></div>
Didn't think so. </div></div>
I have no idea what your problem is. I dont care about your book. Doesnt have anything to do with this thread and it definately wont change my opinion.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Trained individual who delivers long range precision fire on key targets, select targets, and targets of opportunity.
Snipers hunt humans.
There's my short and sweet.
Trained individual who delivers long range precision fire on key targets, select targets, and targets of opportunity.
Snipers hunt humans.
There's my short and sweet.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snipers shoot people. </div></div>
To me, this would be an important part of the equation.
To me, only those who have or may have to engage human targets in service to country or community should ever have the right to begin to call themselves a Sniper. Beyond that I'll let the experts decide what training and documentation you must have to be a real Sniper....
</div></div>
+1... and to be mature enough to realize that it is not "cool" to put someone down and to not be looking forward to the opportunity to do so. I hope I never have to fire my rifle at a human, but I am prepared and trained to do so. I have been around some shootings, to include some OISs, and they are nothing to be proud of. I loathe when people ask about them. I find that if someone talks on and on about a shooting, they are either full of shit or are having mental issues from the shoot. I would imagine that if a guy goes on and on about being a "sniper", then they probably are not. I have not been on the sniper element long, but I could not possibly care any less if someone thinks I am or am not a sniper. I believe that not giving a shit about how I am perceived pushes me towards the "yes" column. If others do consider me a sniper, then I am honored to be in such good company.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lucks</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Snipers shoot people. </div></div>
To me, this would be an important part of the equation.
To me, only those who have or may have to engage human targets in service to country or community should ever have the right to begin to call themselves a Sniper. Beyond that I'll let the experts decide what training and documentation you must have to be a real Sniper....
</div></div>
+1... and to be mature enough to realize that it is not "cool" to put someone down and to not be looking forward to the opportunity to do so. I hope I never have to fire my rifle at a human, but I am prepared and trained to do so. I have been around some shootings, to include some OISs, and they are nothing to be proud of. I loathe when people ask about them. I find that if someone talks on and on about a shooting, they are either full of shit or are having mental issues from the shoot. I would imagine that if a guy goes on and on about being a "sniper", then they probably are not. I have not been on the sniper element long, but I could not possibly care any less if someone thinks I am or am not a sniper. I believe that not giving a shit about how I am perceived pushes me towards the "yes" column. If others do consider me a sniper, then I am honored to be in such good company.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Last time I checked, you can go to Sniper School if you are 11A/18A... But I have to check on that. You can, however, attend the Sniper Employment Leader Course, or whatever it's called, in Benning. It doesn't really teach you to be a sniper per say (I think someone mention day at the range), but got decent materials to go over the basics.
If you want to shoot, the Army Marksmanship Unit has the SDM and CQM courses. They are great! You can either go to Benning or have them send a (Mobile Training team) MTT over to your post. There are also various MTT for precision marksmanship that's not on ATRRS.
Hit me up on the private message thing. Let me know where you are on your commissioning process. Maybe there is a way to send you to a course.
Marksmanship proficiency for "snipers" varies from unit to unit. It really depends on how much time/ammo the chain of command allocates as part of the training plan. Most of your weapon proficiency is going to come out of your own pocket. One of the guys(A Major) I work with taught the Combat Arms Team at West Point and he can pretty much clean the table with most School Trained Snipers out there. How well you work with your weapons depend a lot on you and not some schooling the Army puts guys through.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slafav</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is it that makes a "Sniper" just that? The easiest answer would be the military school, but is that really it? What moves someone from a, "hobbiest" or, "marksman" to the realm of a sniper? Unfortunately I am unable to attend the actually sniper school (Officer Track), so will I never achieve the level of a sniper? If you feel like breaking out the pop corn and opening fire, feel free to delete the thread.
</div></div>
Last time I checked, you can go to Sniper School if you are 11A/18A... But I have to check on that. You can, however, attend the Sniper Employment Leader Course, or whatever it's called, in Benning. It doesn't really teach you to be a sniper per say (I think someone mention day at the range), but got decent materials to go over the basics.
If you want to shoot, the Army Marksmanship Unit has the SDM and CQM courses. They are great! You can either go to Benning or have them send a (Mobile Training team) MTT over to your post. There are also various MTT for precision marksmanship that's not on ATRRS.
Hit me up on the private message thing. Let me know where you are on your commissioning process. Maybe there is a way to send you to a course.
Marksmanship proficiency for "snipers" varies from unit to unit. It really depends on how much time/ammo the chain of command allocates as part of the training plan. Most of your weapon proficiency is going to come out of your own pocket. One of the guys(A Major) I work with taught the Combat Arms Team at West Point and he can pretty much clean the table with most School Trained Snipers out there. How well you work with your weapons depend a lot on you and not some schooling the Army puts guys through.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slafav</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is it that makes a "Sniper" just that? The easiest answer would be the military school, but is that really it? What moves someone from a, "hobbiest" or, "marksman" to the realm of a sniper? Unfortunately I am unable to attend the actually sniper school (Officer Track), so will I never achieve the level of a sniper? If you feel like breaking out the pop corn and opening fire, feel free to delete the thread.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
I went to Sniper School @ Ft. Benning back in '97. I was in a sniper slot in the 82nd for about 5 years prior to separating from the Army. While in, I was our Scout Platoon's Sniper section team leader. It was up to me to recommend other troops in my Scout Platoon for attendance at the US Army Sniper School.
In my opinion, anyone can teach a monkey to put cross hairs on a target, squeeze the trigger, and hit a target at any given distance. Being s sniper, in the truest sense of the word, requires so much more than being a good marksman.
Having a level head and a quiet confidence is what I valued most when training the guys under me. Being a sniper is the epitome of being a silent professorial. Ones actions speak volumes toward your skill level while ones words of boasting of ones actions merely let everyone around you know that your personal confidence in your skills is lacking.
Speaking in a military sense you have to know the following. First and foremost you need to realize that your main job and primary is to engage pre-determined targets and targets of opportunity. This means putting a hole in someone. You need to be right with God to do that. It doesn't get any more personal than that with the target you are engaging. You have to be the main intel gatherer for your unit as the secondary mission of a sniper is the collection and reporting of battlefield intel. Memory is key. Target ID is more crucial than your marksmanship skills IMHO. You have to be calm enough not to get excited when that high priority target gets into you field of view. Generally this isn't a problem since so many other things are going through your mind: Is my backdrop right? Is my loophole good for the distance I'm shooting from? What's my exfil plan? Wind, temp, humidity checks?
You rely on your spotter for almost everything. You must trust each other with your life. The spotter should be the most experience guy in the team. He gives you a DOPE correction from zero and you have to trust that he is right. Second guessing ones self or your partner leads to a world of sh*t.
Anyhoot. I'll get off the soapbox. Main point is that which I stated at the beginning. Anyone can be trained to hit a target at 800 meters consistently. A sniper has to be able to do it when his life and the lives of his buddies are a butt hair away from being lost.
I went to Sniper School @ Ft. Benning back in '97. I was in a sniper slot in the 82nd for about 5 years prior to separating from the Army. While in, I was our Scout Platoon's Sniper section team leader. It was up to me to recommend other troops in my Scout Platoon for attendance at the US Army Sniper School.
In my opinion, anyone can teach a monkey to put cross hairs on a target, squeeze the trigger, and hit a target at any given distance. Being s sniper, in the truest sense of the word, requires so much more than being a good marksman.
Having a level head and a quiet confidence is what I valued most when training the guys under me. Being a sniper is the epitome of being a silent professorial. Ones actions speak volumes toward your skill level while ones words of boasting of ones actions merely let everyone around you know that your personal confidence in your skills is lacking.
Speaking in a military sense you have to know the following. First and foremost you need to realize that your main job and primary is to engage pre-determined targets and targets of opportunity. This means putting a hole in someone. You need to be right with God to do that. It doesn't get any more personal than that with the target you are engaging. You have to be the main intel gatherer for your unit as the secondary mission of a sniper is the collection and reporting of battlefield intel. Memory is key. Target ID is more crucial than your marksmanship skills IMHO. You have to be calm enough not to get excited when that high priority target gets into you field of view. Generally this isn't a problem since so many other things are going through your mind: Is my backdrop right? Is my loophole good for the distance I'm shooting from? What's my exfil plan? Wind, temp, humidity checks?
You rely on your spotter for almost everything. You must trust each other with your life. The spotter should be the most experience guy in the team. He gives you a DOPE correction from zero and you have to trust that he is right. Second guessing ones self or your partner leads to a world of sh*t.
Anyhoot. I'll get off the soapbox. Main point is that which I stated at the beginning. Anyone can be trained to hit a target at 800 meters consistently. A sniper has to be able to do it when his life and the lives of his buddies are a butt hair away from being lost.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...a dream smasher...</div></div>
Dream Smasher....ha!
I don't know what makes a sniper...we had guys go through school, finish top of the class, and never fire an M40 in combat...then we had guys in Somalia who hadn't been through school, get trigger time, and CK's. Go figure!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...a dream smasher...</div></div>
Dream Smasher....ha!
I don't know what makes a sniper...we had guys go through school, finish top of the class, and never fire an M40 in combat...then we had guys in Somalia who hadn't been through school, get trigger time, and CK's. Go figure!
Re: What Makes a Sniper
First off, before you can even THINK about having anyone consider you a real SNIPER, you have to watch, study, eat, shit and sleep this movie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBNQhdY6Fbc
..then go buy a burlap sack, cut it to shit, and place the strips randomly on your body, and head. Go low crawl around your back yard every day, and randomly shoot your neighbors dogs with this...
http://www.airsoftsniped.com/p12/UTG-L96...bf43f13e110cf5a
..record every attempt, then post them on youtube, and claim your right to be called a sniper.
First off, before you can even THINK about having anyone consider you a real SNIPER, you have to watch, study, eat, shit and sleep this movie...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBNQhdY6Fbc
..then go buy a burlap sack, cut it to shit, and place the strips randomly on your body, and head. Go low crawl around your back yard every day, and randomly shoot your neighbors dogs with this...
http://www.airsoftsniped.com/p12/UTG-L96...bf43f13e110cf5a
..record every attempt, then post them on youtube, and claim your right to be called a sniper.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaeger308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$19.95
Sniper certificate </div></div>
Over 200 sold in the last 24 hours!!!!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jaeger308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$19.95
Sniper certificate </div></div>
Over 200 sold in the last 24 hours!!!!
Re: What Makes a Sniper
what makes a sniper , i would say us army sniper school. what makes the best sniper? i would say usmc scout sniper school!
in reality i would only consider somoeone who was trained at a military sniper school to be a actual sniper
what makes a sniper , i would say us army sniper school. what makes the best sniper? i would say usmc scout sniper school!
in reality i would only consider somoeone who was trained at a military sniper school to be a actual sniper
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Nah, the difference is that it takes four extra weeks to teach Marines to use calculators.....
Not that I'm biased or anything.
Seriously though, one of my teachers was a Marine Scout/Sniper Instructor, and he was truly a master. Much respect to you guys.
Nah, the difference is that it takes four extra weeks to teach Marines to use calculators.....
Not that I'm biased or anything.
Seriously though, one of my teachers was a Marine Scout/Sniper Instructor, and he was truly a master. Much respect to you guys.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nah, the difference is that it takes four extra weeks to teach Marines to use calculators.....
Not that I'm biased or anything.
Seriously though, one of my teachers was a Marine Scout/Sniper Instructor, and he was truly a master. Much respect to you guys. </div></div>
thats pretty good!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SSSamurai</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nah, the difference is that it takes four extra weeks to teach Marines to use calculators.....
Not that I'm biased or anything.
Seriously though, one of my teachers was a Marine Scout/Sniper Instructor, and he was truly a master. Much respect to you guys. </div></div>
thats pretty good!
Re: What Makes a Sniper
I sent one of my teams to Scout Sniper a couple months ago. They said it's the same criteria as the army sniper school. It's just longer because it counts as your AIT. Props on you guys for having sniper as an MOS... Now if the army would get head out of ass and do the same thing.
I sent one of my teams to Scout Sniper a couple months ago. They said it's the same criteria as the army sniper school. It's just longer because it counts as your AIT. Props on you guys for having sniper as an MOS... Now if the army would get head out of ass and do the same thing.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
if you are talking about usmc scout sniper schoool there is def a difference in regards to the army sniper school, i hvae not attended the army schooo but know the criteria and basic course layout from dealings with army sniper teams and there are some major differences.
if you are talking about usmc scout sniper schoool there is def a difference in regards to the army sniper school, i hvae not attended the army schooo but know the criteria and basic course layout from dealings with army sniper teams and there are some major differences.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
When we compared schools we found that the USMC guys had to do everything more times than we did, had a longer FTX, and a lot more of the Surveillance and Reporting than we were required to know. But we also have other options like RSLC, SOTIC, etc...
I wish we had our own MOS
When we compared schools we found that the USMC guys had to do everything more times than we did, had a longer FTX, and a lot more of the Surveillance and Reporting than we were required to know. But we also have other options like RSLC, SOTIC, etc...
I wish we had our own MOS
Re: What Makes a Sniper
I'm an engineer, but so is a guy who drives a train. Some people with tech school degrees are calling themselves internet engineers or the like now, as are lots of others who have no traditional engineering training. Some mechanical and civil engineers take a Professional Engineer exam, and put P.E. after their names. I have a master's degree in electrical engineering from a state school, and all but a dissertation for a Ph.D.
In short, the train guy's an engineer too, so I'll say master's in electrical or Ph.D (abd) in electrical in a situation where it matters.
Off my soapbox, and off to get me a snipe...
I'm an engineer, but so is a guy who drives a train. Some people with tech school degrees are calling themselves internet engineers or the like now, as are lots of others who have no traditional engineering training. Some mechanical and civil engineers take a Professional Engineer exam, and put P.E. after their names. I have a master's degree in electrical engineering from a state school, and all but a dissertation for a Ph.D.
In short, the train guy's an engineer too, so I'll say master's in electrical or Ph.D (abd) in electrical in a situation where it matters.
Off my soapbox, and off to get me a snipe...
Re: What Makes a Sniper
haha RSLC the "forth" phase of rgr school. Agree with ya SSSamuri on all counts.
haha RSLC the "forth" phase of rgr school. Agree with ya SSSamuri on all counts.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
My personal definition of a Sniper is someone who changes the game on the battlefield and lives to fight another day..
My personal definition of a Sniper is someone who changes the game on the battlefield and lives to fight another day..
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Maybe I shouldn't say this but I've been holding off for a couple days now and I think its about time I said it. This thread is F***tarded. No offense to anyone or the original poster but if you wanna know meet a couple people who can validate their training and ask them their thoughts, at least you'll know what they go through. All other opinions in this matter are of no importance.
Its no different than asking a bunch of people what makes a Navy Seal, Recon, or SF anyone can bulls**t their way through an opinion cause they play XBOX or saw some special on TV but in the end unless you've been their your answer is simply bulls**t.
Maybe I shouldn't say this but I've been holding off for a couple days now and I think its about time I said it. This thread is F***tarded. No offense to anyone or the original poster but if you wanna know meet a couple people who can validate their training and ask them their thoughts, at least you'll know what they go through. All other opinions in this matter are of no importance.
Its no different than asking a bunch of people what makes a Navy Seal, Recon, or SF anyone can bulls**t their way through an opinion cause they play XBOX or saw some special on TV but in the end unless you've been their your answer is simply bulls**t.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Quite a rant. But its silly to think only Military Schooled People can be Snipers.
To really understand sniping one, especially LE Counter-Snipers, should study and understand the Criminal Sniper and don't think for a second they arn't out there.
There are three types of snipers, ego-harmonious, ego-nonharmonious and psycotic. You need to know what you are dealing with.
Quite a rant. But its silly to think only Military Schooled People can be Snipers.
To really understand sniping one, especially LE Counter-Snipers, should study and understand the Criminal Sniper and don't think for a second they arn't out there.
There are three types of snipers, ego-harmonious, ego-nonharmonious and psycotic. You need to know what you are dealing with.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
I didn't and won't claim that there are only military snipers. However I would say that what most people and especially our media would define a sniper as do not qualify as a sniper. I'll leave you with a "textbook" definition of the types of shooter: Untrained Marksmen, Trained Marksmen, and Trained Snipers. I can only think of one criminal case I've ever heard of in the US that involved a trained sniper and the "DC Sniper" does not qualify. Trained marksmen maybe. I hate to see law enforcement, our media, and even at times our military label every shooting as a Sniper all it does is place a poor image of what a sniper really is.
I didn't and won't claim that there are only military snipers. However I would say that what most people and especially our media would define a sniper as do not qualify as a sniper. I'll leave you with a "textbook" definition of the types of shooter: Untrained Marksmen, Trained Marksmen, and Trained Snipers. I can only think of one criminal case I've ever heard of in the US that involved a trained sniper and the "DC Sniper" does not qualify. Trained marksmen maybe. I hate to see law enforcement, our media, and even at times our military label every shooting as a Sniper all it does is place a poor image of what a sniper really is.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
USMC Definition: "A Marine who is highly trained in field skills and marksmanship who can provide long range precision fire on select targets from concealed positions in support of combat operations."
This is the Corps definition but I think it relates to all sniping operations. When I went through USMC Sniper School, shooting was the baseline for selection to go to a Sniper platoon. Then came physical conditioning of the Marine. Anyone who has ever been on a 7-day patrol carrying comm gear with batteries and all other field gear with weaponry knows what I am talking about and understands how important physical conditioning and toughness has to be . To me, the shooting was the easy part. It's the independent decision making on when to do and not to do something that separates the professional from the amateurs. Staying alive to keep doing your job while supporting operations is the key. Disciplined maturity will keep you training to be better at your job. That includes shooting, physical conditioning (no matter how much older you get), the constant search for better ways to do things and making the most of your equipment no matter how much or how little gear you have.
To me, these principles carry on with the law enforcement professional in his day to day operations on a SWAT team or whatever you department term happens to be. It takes discipline to maintain skills. Not just the recreational shooter that CAN hit a target at a specific range every so often when he OR SHE decides to blow the dust of the rifle.
I agree with what was stated earlier. Snipers train to shoot human beings. Whatever the reason as to why it is necessary. I think you should add to that statement. There are times when you have to shoot other objects as well. You may have to stop a vehicle from moving. You may have to take out an engine block or an axle achieving mobility kills.
No matter the case, it takes discipline to be prepared for these situations.
Like the old saying, “The amateur trains until he gets it right, where as the professional trains until he can’t get it wrong.”
S/F,
USMC Definition: "A Marine who is highly trained in field skills and marksmanship who can provide long range precision fire on select targets from concealed positions in support of combat operations."
This is the Corps definition but I think it relates to all sniping operations. When I went through USMC Sniper School, shooting was the baseline for selection to go to a Sniper platoon. Then came physical conditioning of the Marine. Anyone who has ever been on a 7-day patrol carrying comm gear with batteries and all other field gear with weaponry knows what I am talking about and understands how important physical conditioning and toughness has to be . To me, the shooting was the easy part. It's the independent decision making on when to do and not to do something that separates the professional from the amateurs. Staying alive to keep doing your job while supporting operations is the key. Disciplined maturity will keep you training to be better at your job. That includes shooting, physical conditioning (no matter how much older you get), the constant search for better ways to do things and making the most of your equipment no matter how much or how little gear you have.
To me, these principles carry on with the law enforcement professional in his day to day operations on a SWAT team or whatever you department term happens to be. It takes discipline to maintain skills. Not just the recreational shooter that CAN hit a target at a specific range every so often when he OR SHE decides to blow the dust of the rifle.
I agree with what was stated earlier. Snipers train to shoot human beings. Whatever the reason as to why it is necessary. I think you should add to that statement. There are times when you have to shoot other objects as well. You may have to stop a vehicle from moving. You may have to take out an engine block or an axle achieving mobility kills.
No matter the case, it takes discipline to be prepared for these situations.
Like the old saying, “The amateur trains until he gets it right, where as the professional trains until he can’t get it wrong.”
S/F,
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate to see law enforcement........label every shooting as a Sniper all it does is place a poor image of what a sniper really is.</div></div>
They don't, but they need to know the types of criminal sniper, just like they need to understand any other criminal, so they can be dealt with accordingly. The key to understanding which cases are or are not sniping is "Protective Distance". When I say protective distance I don't mean distanse per se, but protective distance as the range which a sniper feels he can maintain his sense of emotional remoteness.
Military Snipers, urban guerrillas, and contract killers, are ego-harmonious.
The ego-nonharmonious, most common "criminal" sniper, is a man unable to resolve an inner conflict with may express itself in a stream or concentrated burst of violence. The psychotic sniper is closely related to the ego-nonharmonious sniper but he's normally lost all his prospective of reality.
As I said, its critical for LE to understand the difference so they can respond accordingly.
Schools do not a sniper make, they do provide training though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate to see law enforcement........label every shooting as a Sniper all it does is place a poor image of what a sniper really is.</div></div>
They don't, but they need to know the types of criminal sniper, just like they need to understand any other criminal, so they can be dealt with accordingly. The key to understanding which cases are or are not sniping is "Protective Distance". When I say protective distance I don't mean distanse per se, but protective distance as the range which a sniper feels he can maintain his sense of emotional remoteness.
Military Snipers, urban guerrillas, and contract killers, are ego-harmonious.
The ego-nonharmonious, most common "criminal" sniper, is a man unable to resolve an inner conflict with may express itself in a stream or concentrated burst of violence. The psychotic sniper is closely related to the ego-nonharmonious sniper but he's normally lost all his prospective of reality.
As I said, its critical for LE to understand the difference so they can respond accordingly.
Schools do not a sniper make, they do provide training though.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't and won't claim that there are only military snipers. However I would say that what most people and especially our media would define a sniper as do not qualify as a sniper. I'll leave you with a "textbook" definition of the types of shooter: Untrained Marksmen, Trained Marksmen, and Trained Snipers. I can only think of one criminal case I've ever heard of in the US that involved a trained sniper and the "DC Sniper" does not qualify. Trained marksmen maybe. I hate to see law enforcement, our media, and even at times our military label every shooting as a Sniper all it does is place a poor image of what a sniper really is.
</div></div>
Thank you. I am glad someone else in here got it right.....about the DC "shooters."
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I didn't and won't claim that there are only military snipers. However I would say that what most people and especially our media would define a sniper as do not qualify as a sniper. I'll leave you with a "textbook" definition of the types of shooter: Untrained Marksmen, Trained Marksmen, and Trained Snipers. I can only think of one criminal case I've ever heard of in the US that involved a trained sniper and the "DC Sniper" does not qualify. Trained marksmen maybe. I hate to see law enforcement, our media, and even at times our military label every shooting as a Sniper all it does is place a poor image of what a sniper really is.
</div></div>
Thank you. I am glad someone else in here got it right.....about the DC "shooters."
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Kraig, I want to be sure its clear I mean no disrespect in disagreeing with you. However, unless you can point out good reason why so called criminal "Sniper's" should be labeled a Sniper I think it simply falls into a shooter/ murderer/ or whatever other generic label you might want to use. Even the "DC Sniper" could only be characterized as a sniper by using a rifle and a Hide, from what I've read they didn't even use the rifle very accurately. Just because someone uses a rifle even possibly accurately and MAYBE hides properly does not make them a sniper. If you properly clear a room in order to murder someone it doesn't make you SWAT or SF it still only makes you a murderer. Once again this is just my 2 cents which on an open public forum is worth exactly 0.
Kraig, I want to be sure its clear I mean no disrespect in disagreeing with you. However, unless you can point out good reason why so called criminal "Sniper's" should be labeled a Sniper I think it simply falls into a shooter/ murderer/ or whatever other generic label you might want to use. Even the "DC Sniper" could only be characterized as a sniper by using a rifle and a Hide, from what I've read they didn't even use the rifle very accurately. Just because someone uses a rifle even possibly accurately and MAYBE hides properly does not make them a sniper. If you properly clear a room in order to murder someone it doesn't make you SWAT or SF it still only makes you a murderer. Once again this is just my 2 cents which on an open public forum is worth exactly 0.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Ok I will put on my Flame jacket and say this with all due respect.
We strip the honor from our Military Snipers when we call deranged idiots with rifles snipers. In my humble opinion you are only a sniper when you have been trained professionally (such as US Marines, or Army) been awarded the cert. That makes you a Sniper-- no civilian training or purchasing a rifle can bestow that honor.
Ok I will put on my Flame jacket and say this with all due respect.
We strip the honor from our Military Snipers when we call deranged idiots with rifles snipers. In my humble opinion you are only a sniper when you have been trained professionally (such as US Marines, or Army) been awarded the cert. That makes you a Sniper-- no civilian training or purchasing a rifle can bestow that honor.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
So as I was re-reading through the posts I came across one of the main reasons I got irritated with this thread and started ranting in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say your a "Sniper" when you graduate from a military school with the certificate that says you are. Then you become a "Real" sniper when you put down another human in combat.
</div></div>
One of the best actual US ARMY Snipers I have ever met had multiple deployments and used his rifle exactly zero times, at least as a sniper. But you wouldn't call him a "Real" sniper because he never "put down another human in combat?" That's not only absurd but also really disrespectful of what they actually go through just to get through the school let alone the job they may do in combat without actually sending one round down range. A good sniper uses whatever other assets he has available to him not just his rifle. Due to this concept that same man probably has more enemy casualties he could claim than maybe anyone else I know. A couple other Snipers I know that I would categorize as among the best I've ever met haven't ever even been deployed as a sniper so are they also not a sniper because they have never done what they very effectively and efficiently train others to do?
Hoping this explains my original rant a little. I just get irritated with people talking on this and other similar subjects when they don't have a damn clue. I'm just tired of the "well I shot against snipers in a comp" or whatever other BS they got.
So as I was re-reading through the posts I came across one of the main reasons I got irritated with this thread and started ranting in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say your a "Sniper" when you graduate from a military school with the certificate that says you are. Then you become a "Real" sniper when you put down another human in combat.
</div></div>
One of the best actual US ARMY Snipers I have ever met had multiple deployments and used his rifle exactly zero times, at least as a sniper. But you wouldn't call him a "Real" sniper because he never "put down another human in combat?" That's not only absurd but also really disrespectful of what they actually go through just to get through the school let alone the job they may do in combat without actually sending one round down range. A good sniper uses whatever other assets he has available to him not just his rifle. Due to this concept that same man probably has more enemy casualties he could claim than maybe anyone else I know. A couple other Snipers I know that I would categorize as among the best I've ever met haven't ever even been deployed as a sniper so are they also not a sniper because they have never done what they very effectively and efficiently train others to do?
Hoping this explains my original rant a little. I just get irritated with people talking on this and other similar subjects when they don't have a damn clue. I'm just tired of the "well I shot against snipers in a comp" or whatever other BS they got.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So as I was re-reading through the posts I came across one of the main reasons I got irritated with this thread and started ranting in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say your a "Sniper" when you graduate from a military school with the certificate that says you are. Then you become a "Real" sniper when you put down another human in combat.
</div></div>
One of the best actual US ARMY Snipers I have ever met had multiple deployments and used his rifle exactly zero times, at least as a sniper. But you wouldn't call him a "Real" sniper because he never "put down another human in combat?" That's not only absurd but also really disrespectful of what they actually go through just to get through the school let alone the job they may do in combat without actually sending one round down range. A good sniper uses whatever other assets he has available to him not just his rifle. Due to this concept that same man probably has more enemy casualties he could claim than maybe anyone else I know. A couple other Snipers I know that I would categorize as among the best I've ever met haven't ever even been deployed as a sniper so are they also not a sniper because they have never done what they very effectively and efficiently train others to do?
Hoping this explains my original rant a little. I just get irritated with people talking on this and other similar subjects when they don't have a damn clue. I'm just tired of the "well I shot against snipers in a comp" or whatever other BS they got.</div></div>
Absolutly agree, exersizing or utilizing the skills that you have been taught has nothing to do with being called a Sniper.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MN sharpshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So as I was re-reading through the posts I came across one of the main reasons I got irritated with this thread and started ranting in the first place.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say your a "Sniper" when you graduate from a military school with the certificate that says you are. Then you become a "Real" sniper when you put down another human in combat.
</div></div>
One of the best actual US ARMY Snipers I have ever met had multiple deployments and used his rifle exactly zero times, at least as a sniper. But you wouldn't call him a "Real" sniper because he never "put down another human in combat?" That's not only absurd but also really disrespectful of what they actually go through just to get through the school let alone the job they may do in combat without actually sending one round down range. A good sniper uses whatever other assets he has available to him not just his rifle. Due to this concept that same man probably has more enemy casualties he could claim than maybe anyone else I know. A couple other Snipers I know that I would categorize as among the best I've ever met haven't ever even been deployed as a sniper so are they also not a sniper because they have never done what they very effectively and efficiently train others to do?
Hoping this explains my original rant a little. I just get irritated with people talking on this and other similar subjects when they don't have a damn clue. I'm just tired of the "well I shot against snipers in a comp" or whatever other BS they got.</div></div>
Absolutly agree, exersizing or utilizing the skills that you have been taught has nothing to do with being called a Sniper.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my humble opinion you are only a sniper when you have been trained professionally (such as US Marines, or Army) been awarded the cert. That makes you a Sniper-- no civilian training or purchasing a rifle can bestow that honor.</div></div>
So what do you call LE Sniper/Counter Snipers??
By the way I got my cert. from the Army not by purchasing a rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In my humble opinion you are only a sniper when you have been trained professionally (such as US Marines, or Army) been awarded the cert. That makes you a Sniper-- no civilian training or purchasing a rifle can bestow that honor.</div></div>
So what do you call LE Sniper/Counter Snipers??
By the way I got my cert. from the Army not by purchasing a rifle.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
Please dont take this the wrong way and I never intended any disrespect and never implied that you got your cert through a rifle purchase. ... and this is only how I think of it. I call them Expert Marksmen or Sharpshooters -- they do not work at the long range distances that the military work at.
I know that this will not be popular, but that is the way I look at it.
And thank you for your service
Please dont take this the wrong way and I never intended any disrespect and never implied that you got your cert through a rifle purchase. ... and this is only how I think of it. I call them Expert Marksmen or Sharpshooters -- they do not work at the long range distances that the military work at.
I know that this will not be popular, but that is the way I look at it.
And thank you for your service
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I never intended any disrespect and never implied that you got your cert through a rifle purchase.</div></div>
Kevlars:
I'm sorry, that came out wrong, I never thought you did. I posted that only to show I'm not addressing my opinions to justify not being trained.
I think we are letting our egos interfer. We think because someone hasn't been trained like us, they can't have the title we have.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I never intended any disrespect and never implied that you got your cert through a rifle purchase.</div></div>
Kevlars:
I'm sorry, that came out wrong, I never thought you did. I posted that only to show I'm not addressing my opinions to justify not being trained.
I think we are letting our egos interfer. We think because someone hasn't been trained like us, they can't have the title we have.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
No worries ... I just wanted to make sure we were not mis communicating...
Let me first say that I am not a Sniper and I never had the opportunity to serve in the Military-I have served in a different way as support staff -- you know the guys keeping your net up and operational and finding unique ways to get transmissions through while encrypted.
Although I think we may disagree and that is ok (at least that is what I am understanding from your post)-- but I feel that without the Military training and cert you are not a Sniper.
Again that is just the I look at it currently.
No worries ... I just wanted to make sure we were not mis communicating...
Let me first say that I am not a Sniper and I never had the opportunity to serve in the Military-I have served in a different way as support staff -- you know the guys keeping your net up and operational and finding unique ways to get transmissions through while encrypted.
Although I think we may disagree and that is ok (at least that is what I am understanding from your post)-- but I feel that without the Military training and cert you are not a Sniper.
Again that is just the I look at it currently.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a short summary of some of the qualities of a good sniper:
- Patience
- Independence
- Hunting experience
- Cleverness
- Ability to adapt to different situations
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Make decisions on his own</span>
- Keen observation skills
- Field craft skills and knowing how to use all types of camouflage effectively
- Stealth
- Awareness
- Knowledge of ballistics
- Marksmanship
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Ability to keep learning</span>
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Discipline</span>
- Meticulous preparation
- Attention to detail
- Understanding his enemy
- Exploiting his enemies weaknesses
- Knowing when to shoot and when not too.
- Record and data keeping skills
- Evasion skills
- Stay still for long hours
- and yes I googled this </div></div>
Those few things are gonna leave 99% of these guys out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armydog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a short summary of some of the qualities of a good sniper:
- Patience
- Independence
- Hunting experience
- Cleverness
- Ability to adapt to different situations
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Make decisions on his own</span>
- Keen observation skills
- Field craft skills and knowing how to use all types of camouflage effectively
- Stealth
- Awareness
- Knowledge of ballistics
- Marksmanship
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Ability to keep learning</span>
- <span style="font-weight: bold">Discipline</span>
- Meticulous preparation
- Attention to detail
- Understanding his enemy
- Exploiting his enemies weaknesses
- Knowing when to shoot and when not too.
- Record and data keeping skills
- Evasion skills
- Stay still for long hours
- and yes I googled this </div></div>
Those few things are gonna leave 99% of these guys out.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please dont take this the wrong way and I never intended any disrespect and never implied that you got your cert through a rifle purchase. ... and this is only how I think of it. I call them Expert Marksmen or Sharpshooters -- they do not work at the long range distances that the military work at.
I know that this will not be popular, but that is the way I look at it.
And thank you for your service </div></div>
OK, I will keep this BS thread going.......
Who said a LE Sniper/Countersniper/DM doesn't have the capability, or will never have the opportunity, to shoot long distances? It's one thing for a military sniper to make a body shot on a person at 1000 yards. In that situation, a miss is acceptable. It's quite different looking though glass as an LE sniper at an armed gunman with a human shield and knowing a miss could take the wrong life-no matter what distance the LE sniper is shooting from.
FYI, LE snipers do train at long distances. Shooting fundamentals are shooting fundamentals-no matter what the distance is. It is in the LE snipers best interest to get as close as possible and as fast as possible, which is quite different from the military sniper. The only thing that is different between the 2 is the mission. In my opinion, where the military sniper really excels in in Fieldcraft and orientation.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please dont take this the wrong way and I never intended any disrespect and never implied that you got your cert through a rifle purchase. ... and this is only how I think of it. I call them Expert Marksmen or Sharpshooters -- they do not work at the long range distances that the military work at.
I know that this will not be popular, but that is the way I look at it.
And thank you for your service </div></div>
OK, I will keep this BS thread going.......
Who said a LE Sniper/Countersniper/DM doesn't have the capability, or will never have the opportunity, to shoot long distances? It's one thing for a military sniper to make a body shot on a person at 1000 yards. In that situation, a miss is acceptable. It's quite different looking though glass as an LE sniper at an armed gunman with a human shield and knowing a miss could take the wrong life-no matter what distance the LE sniper is shooting from.
FYI, LE snipers do train at long distances. Shooting fundamentals are shooting fundamentals-no matter what the distance is. It is in the LE snipers best interest to get as close as possible and as fast as possible, which is quite different from the military sniper. The only thing that is different between the 2 is the mission. In my opinion, where the military sniper really excels in in Fieldcraft and orientation.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets , every target. a miss is unexceptable , does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every time it doesnt matter if its a body shot on a skinny at 1000 yards or if its a scumbag with a hostage at 75 the pressure to perform the task is the same exp when your life or the lives of a hostage or your fellow marines depend on that shot placement.
just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets , every target. a miss is unexceptable , does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every time it doesnt matter if its a body shot on a skinny at 1000 yards or if its a scumbag with a hostage at 75 the pressure to perform the task is the same exp when your life or the lives of a hostage or your fellow marines depend on that shot placement.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
This is where there is a difference. As far as training goes for the Police it differs from county, city and state. I know some officers that were just handed a rifle and said congratulations you are now a police sniper. Others were shuttled off to class for 3 weeks or longer to train. Some are given the designation but not allowed to practice with the rifle due to monitary constraints. (and yes these are not just stories that I have heard passed down, I have spoken to the officers directly over the years as I take training from different locations)
PSL1078 I can tell you that you answered the question -- the field craft is the difference-- its not just competence in shooting at a bad guy holding a hostage and feeling your heart wanting to explode out of your chest before you crack the trigger. Its the composure to use the craft to move past bad guys 10 feet away -- moving at 2 ft per hour to get to your FFP after a day or longer, and then the balls to crack off a shot at 600 yds with little or no sleep at your objective and get a first round hit. and then to make your egress to live another day. You do not have to have done it, but you trained for it, you know how to do it, you have the mental strenght, for lack of a better term.
Again I know this will not be popular and some have called this chain BS but I think it needs to be said. The Police or SWAT do not have to do that --- they have to hit the 100yd shot on a moving target with a hostage in tow. Is it easy no... but say what it is .. Marksmanship-- Sharpshooting. I am not trying to belittle or talk down to the police or what they do ... I am neither a Sniper or a sharpshooter -- I am a guy that is trying to learn all he can about shooting. However, I believe that titles and designations are earned not given- and when we give the same designation to lesser training it lessens the value of us all.
Again this is in my humble opinion and usually I am very quiet on issues like this -- so now I will shut up...
This is where there is a difference. As far as training goes for the Police it differs from county, city and state. I know some officers that were just handed a rifle and said congratulations you are now a police sniper. Others were shuttled off to class for 3 weeks or longer to train. Some are given the designation but not allowed to practice with the rifle due to monitary constraints. (and yes these are not just stories that I have heard passed down, I have spoken to the officers directly over the years as I take training from different locations)
PSL1078 I can tell you that you answered the question -- the field craft is the difference-- its not just competence in shooting at a bad guy holding a hostage and feeling your heart wanting to explode out of your chest before you crack the trigger. Its the composure to use the craft to move past bad guys 10 feet away -- moving at 2 ft per hour to get to your FFP after a day or longer, and then the balls to crack off a shot at 600 yds with little or no sleep at your objective and get a first round hit. and then to make your egress to live another day. You do not have to have done it, but you trained for it, you know how to do it, you have the mental strenght, for lack of a better term.
Again I know this will not be popular and some have called this chain BS but I think it needs to be said. The Police or SWAT do not have to do that --- they have to hit the 100yd shot on a moving target with a hostage in tow. Is it easy no... but say what it is .. Marksmanship-- Sharpshooting. I am not trying to belittle or talk down to the police or what they do ... I am neither a Sniper or a sharpshooter -- I am a guy that is trying to learn all he can about shooting. However, I believe that titles and designations are earned not given- and when we give the same designation to lesser training it lessens the value of us all.
Again this is in my humble opinion and usually I am very quiet on issues like this -- so now I will shut up...
Re: What Makes a Sniper
I think there's been a lot of focus in this thread over the minutia, the difference between schools, LE, military, hunters with scoped bolt action rifles, whackos, etc...
There's also been a lot of talk about the skill set, which isn't any great secret, marksmanship and fieldcraft, with fieldcraft including stalking, concealment, observation, reporting, etc...
What I have yet to hear is the fact that a Sniper is one who uses the skill set to accomplish or support a higher mission. Those of us in the military have to justify every mission we go on to our commanders, or we are given the mission from the commanders. Law Enforcement Snipers have an overarching mission of public safety. Gunmen who take a scoped rifle out just to kill people are murderers, even if they use the same skill set. Does it really need to be any more complicated than that?
Jason
I think there's been a lot of focus in this thread over the minutia, the difference between schools, LE, military, hunters with scoped bolt action rifles, whackos, etc...
There's also been a lot of talk about the skill set, which isn't any great secret, marksmanship and fieldcraft, with fieldcraft including stalking, concealment, observation, reporting, etc...
What I have yet to hear is the fact that a Sniper is one who uses the skill set to accomplish or support a higher mission. Those of us in the military have to justify every mission we go on to our commanders, or we are given the mission from the commanders. Law Enforcement Snipers have an overarching mission of public safety. Gunmen who take a scoped rifle out just to kill people are murderers, even if they use the same skill set. Does it really need to be any more complicated than that?
Jason
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets, every target. a miss is unexceptable, does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every...</div></div>I think I know what you are saying, but militaries don't require first-round hits on 1000 yard targets, and at many distances it is the miss that is the rule with the follow-up shot being the standard. Today the military 'point' is not any more to place the first round on target <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets, every target. a miss is unexceptable, does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every...</div></div>I think I know what you are saying, but militaries don't require first-round hits on 1000 yard targets, and at many distances it is the miss that is the rule with the follow-up shot being the standard. Today the military 'point' is not any more to place the first round on target <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> time.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that titles and designations are earned not given- and when we give the same designation to lesser training it lessens the value of us all.</div></div>
That's EGO talking. I interviewed everyone for the Sniper Schools I ran, be it NG, RA, or LE. All one had to do to get turned down is mention a Sniper Tab or such bullshit. Professionals arn't in it for tabs and badges. We've all seen them. People who only apply for schools that gives them a badge or other trinkets for their uniform.
Sniper methods are the same whether the shooter is trained in a military school or not. Ego wont let you consider the ideal of a criminal sniper. If you're in the job of counter sniper you'd better get over that and learn about criminal snipers so you can deal with them sucessfully.
Its like this new chief we got. He refused to address the ideal of "drive by shooting" either in our reports of worse, mention to the press. Drive bys are differant then normal randum shootings and have to be delt with differantly. Denying the fact is just silly, hurts your investigation and puts citizens and police in danger.
To say someone like the DC Sniper or Whitman (Texas Towers) or Marx Essex (Howard Johnson NO) arn't sniper is letting ego interfer with good judgement. Sure they are murderers, I never saw a rule that says a criminal can't be a sniper.
Essex is a prime example of my point. The NOPD failed to admint Essex was a sniper and to be dealt with accordingly. Not treating it as a sniper incident was directly responsible for the confusion which caused the shooting of several NOPD personal, not by Essex but by friendly fire.
Sniper is a term that didn't even exist prior to WWI. That doesn't mean there were no snipers prior.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe that titles and designations are earned not given- and when we give the same designation to lesser training it lessens the value of us all.</div></div>
That's EGO talking. I interviewed everyone for the Sniper Schools I ran, be it NG, RA, or LE. All one had to do to get turned down is mention a Sniper Tab or such bullshit. Professionals arn't in it for tabs and badges. We've all seen them. People who only apply for schools that gives them a badge or other trinkets for their uniform.
Sniper methods are the same whether the shooter is trained in a military school or not. Ego wont let you consider the ideal of a criminal sniper. If you're in the job of counter sniper you'd better get over that and learn about criminal snipers so you can deal with them sucessfully.
Its like this new chief we got. He refused to address the ideal of "drive by shooting" either in our reports of worse, mention to the press. Drive bys are differant then normal randum shootings and have to be delt with differantly. Denying the fact is just silly, hurts your investigation and puts citizens and police in danger.
To say someone like the DC Sniper or Whitman (Texas Towers) or Marx Essex (Howard Johnson NO) arn't sniper is letting ego interfer with good judgement. Sure they are murderers, I never saw a rule that says a criminal can't be a sniper.
Essex is a prime example of my point. The NOPD failed to admint Essex was a sniper and to be dealt with accordingly. Not treating it as a sniper incident was directly responsible for the confusion which caused the shooting of several NOPD personal, not by Essex but by friendly fire.
Sniper is a term that didn't even exist prior to WWI. That doesn't mean there were no snipers prior.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets, every target. a miss is unexceptable, does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every...</div></div>I think I know what you are saying, but militaries don't require first-round hits on 1000 yard targets, and at many distances it is the miss that is the rule with the follow-up shot being the standard. Today the military 'point' is not any more to place the first round on target <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> time. </div></div>
actually it is !
neither myself or a spotter next to me has even been told to fire a shot to see where it goes then get the next one on , or that it is exceptable to miss any shot. unless the school has changed since i have been there it is always one shot one kill. sometimes we miss but i think if you do the math its a very snmall percentage of the time and never on purpose.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS-8541-dono</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just fyi but as a military trained sniper i will tell you that when it comes to pulling the trigger it doesnt matter if it is 100 yards or 1200 yards your training and your skills demand that you make first round impacts on targets, every target. a miss is unexceptable, does it happen yes but the point is to place the first round on target every...</div></div>I think I know what you are saying, but militaries don't require first-round hits on 1000 yard targets, and at many distances it is the miss that is the rule with the follow-up shot being the standard. Today the military 'point' is not any more to place the first round on target <span style="font-style: italic">every</span> time. </div></div>
actually it is !
neither myself or a spotter next to me has even been told to fire a shot to see where it goes then get the next one on , or that it is exceptable to miss any shot. unless the school has changed since i have been there it is always one shot one kill. sometimes we miss but i think if you do the math its a very snmall percentage of the time and never on purpose.
Re: What Makes a Sniper
OK. I agree with KraigWY on the point that being a "sniper" just to have a title is BS. That, in my opinion, is what the OP is looking for. Not a good candidate. However, we are still in disagreement on the DC shooters being called snipers, but that is a matter of opinion.
Some say LE shouldn't be called a sniper. That is their opinion. The training courses LE attend are "sniper" courses and their job title, or at least for most, is a "sniper." LE could also be called sharpshooters or designated marksman. Does their mission change? No. Is the job pretty much the same as a military sniper? Yes. I agree that military snipers have more training. I also agree that some LE snipers are unsat. But just because a basic LE sniper course is 2-3 weeks, compared to a military course, does not mean the training stops there for the LE sniper. They continue to train and attend different schools, along with monthly training.
Yes, first round hits are always the goal of any shooter, but as we all know, there will be misses in the field for a sniper. It is much different from a civilian shooting competition. Snipers must shoot from different positions in the field, there will be a limb not seen by the shooter, range estimation could be off, mirages, 2-3 different wind speeds at different ranges, etc. It is not shooting in perfect conditions wiu known ranges. All I was saying is if you shoot out to 1k, it is most likely be a body shot and missing a "skinny" is acceptable, as long as a civilian is not hit. The purpose of the spotter is to get the shooter on target with the follow up shot. For the LE sniper at a closer range, the miss is not acceptable. The hostage taker could kill the hostage before the entry team can even make contact with the suspect or a round could go into the hostage. You think either individual will be perfectly still? No. That's the difference between sniping and shooting in a controlled environment. But, call LE whatever you want. In my opinion, there isn't much difference between the titles. Would a sniper be offended if he were called a designated marksman or a sharpshooter? No. In my opinion, being a military DM is a prestigious title.
We are pretty much in agreement on this thread, with some very slight differences.
OK. I agree with KraigWY on the point that being a "sniper" just to have a title is BS. That, in my opinion, is what the OP is looking for. Not a good candidate. However, we are still in disagreement on the DC shooters being called snipers, but that is a matter of opinion.
Some say LE shouldn't be called a sniper. That is their opinion. The training courses LE attend are "sniper" courses and their job title, or at least for most, is a "sniper." LE could also be called sharpshooters or designated marksman. Does their mission change? No. Is the job pretty much the same as a military sniper? Yes. I agree that military snipers have more training. I also agree that some LE snipers are unsat. But just because a basic LE sniper course is 2-3 weeks, compared to a military course, does not mean the training stops there for the LE sniper. They continue to train and attend different schools, along with monthly training.
Yes, first round hits are always the goal of any shooter, but as we all know, there will be misses in the field for a sniper. It is much different from a civilian shooting competition. Snipers must shoot from different positions in the field, there will be a limb not seen by the shooter, range estimation could be off, mirages, 2-3 different wind speeds at different ranges, etc. It is not shooting in perfect conditions wiu known ranges. All I was saying is if you shoot out to 1k, it is most likely be a body shot and missing a "skinny" is acceptable, as long as a civilian is not hit. The purpose of the spotter is to get the shooter on target with the follow up shot. For the LE sniper at a closer range, the miss is not acceptable. The hostage taker could kill the hostage before the entry team can even make contact with the suspect or a round could go into the hostage. You think either individual will be perfectly still? No. That's the difference between sniping and shooting in a controlled environment. But, call LE whatever you want. In my opinion, there isn't much difference between the titles. Would a sniper be offended if he were called a designated marksman or a sharpshooter? No. In my opinion, being a military DM is a prestigious title.
We are pretty much in agreement on this thread, with some very slight differences.
